What happened to the sanctity of marriage?

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy
When institutions and communities lose their control and are no longer the voice of People; are they not at that point simply the voice of another group of people?

Well yeah sometimes that would be the case but a lot of the time no, it's influenced by a 'system' that overrides any individuals feelings.

As in my last point, media is a corporate system that has to make money to survive, and competition is so tight they have to focus on making money instead of focusing on reality.
So what controls what goes on? Money, not people. All decision are based on what will create revenue not on peoples feelings and desires.

(you could replace media here with almost anything in a capitalist system)

This is fundamentally what makes capitalism a perversion of our nature. Of course this all entirely my own opinion.

BTW you don't have to apologise for not agreeing...

Originally posted by ANOK

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy


(you could replace media here with almost anything in a capitalist system)

This is fundamentally what makes capitalism a perversion of our nature. Of course this all entirely my own opinion.

What exactly makes capitalism a perversion of our nature as humans? As I see it, most people seek happiness in life rather than truth. So how is subverting the pursuit of truth for the pursuit of something else unnatural?

Originally posted by sc2099
What I would say to that is that I don't think people think it's normal to STAY married. It's normal to get married and have the kids, but to actually put the effort in to make it work? That stopped being normal way back when....

Thing is if people are marrying people for the sake of it, before they even really know the person, then it won't be long before the effort of keeping it together gets old.

I don't think it's that they think it's normal to not stay married, it's that they are making the mistake of getting married too soon. But I can see where you're coming from, as it's so common it does breed familiarity. But the root of the problem is our own cultural values and again our system of capitalism. It's in the best interest of anyone who makes a living from the institution of marriage to push people to marry rather than develop relationships.

These are all symptoms of the dreaded incurable disease of capitalism, the greatest plague to ever infect the Human Race...

Originally posted by ANOK

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy
When institutions and communities lose their control and are no longer the voice of People; are they not at that point simply the voice of another group of people?

. All decision are based on what will create revenue not on peoples feelings and desires.

Is it safe to say that what the consumer wants the consumer gets? The comsumer wants porn, risque clothing, soap operas, etc.? Are these needs?

Is it safe to say that the consumer co-controls the media through their wants? Perhaps a large portion of people have a desire to harm themselves with indulgences and by the denial of what they need?

Originally posted by sc2099
What exactly makes capitalism a perversion of our nature as humans?

It's a perversion because it perverts our natural tendencies to be cooperative and loving to being competitive and selfish.

It's a parasite that feeds on our wants and desires and leaves us picking up crumbs. It forces the majority of people to act in ways they don't desire.

Markets soon result in what are termed "market forces," "impersonal" forces which ensure that the people in the economy do what is required of them in order for the economy to function. The market system, in capitalist apologetics, is presented to appear as a regime of freedom where no one forces anyone to do anything, where we "freely" exchange with others as we see fit. However, the facts of the matter are somewhat different, since the market often ensures that people act in ways opposite to what they desire or forces them to accept "free agreements" which they may not actually desire. Wage labour is the most obvious example of this, for, as we indicated in section B.4, most people have little option but to agree to work for others.

Sry this is getting way off topic now...Time for bed said Zeberdy...

Originally posted by eye open doors
Is it safe to say that what the consumer wants the consumer gets?

Actually I'd say that's a myth.

People are conditioned to want through the media. Our insecurities are played on.

If consumers actually thought about what they were consuming they would realise they don't need any of it.

They are playing with your head...

reply to post by ANOK

You might be right that monogamy is better for you, and there is no reason you shouldn't practice it. It's when you want to force your values and desires on others I have a problem

I agree with the statement, but from the other side of the issue. I have no problem with people not wanting to get married. I have no problem with people disagreeing with monogamy. My problem is when they don't agree with the sanctitiy of marriage, yet they get married anyways. If you don't agree with it, don't get married. Don't destroy another person simply because you don't believe that marriage is the right thing to do.

Putting my own thoughts on this subject….

Would I cheat on my wife? (not actually married)
I wouldn’t marry in the first place if I wasn’t going to be true to her in when I married. Why marry at all if you know you’re going to get divorced eventually?
If I ever get married (I don’t believe in marriage) it would be with someone I’d won’t to be with forever - otherwise I don’t see the point.

reply to post by Karlhungis


I guess all I can say to that Karl, is that I would hope it could be thoroughly communicated and understood prior to marriage, so that there would be no doubt both people agreed on what 'sanctity of marriage' meant to them. I really don't think that level of communication is revealed and discussed amongst first-time newly weds... I think many couples just assume the other understands what their idea of a union is... The remedy is to not rush into marriage, so there is ample time in learning and understanding whether or not the couple would truly work on a life-long monogamous relationship. My honest opinion is that unions like that are very rare, hence divorce rates.

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy

My honest opinion is that unions like that are very rare

I think you are correct. I would venture a guess that only a very small fraction of couples are that honest before getting married. If I had to guess, I would still say that the majority of couples getting married do honestly think that they are in love and it will feel like that forever. They aren't really taking a real look at what a long term relationship will be like. I doubt many can honestly remove themselves from the situation and take an objective look at it. Then they end up disappointed when it isn't always "sunshine and rainbows" that they think they deserve.

Originally posted by ANOK
Marriage is an institution created by the Church as an early form of control.

Monogamy is a cultural creation stemming from Christianity and the Romans, it's not our natural state.

Where did you get this from? Monogamy wasn't invented by Christianity and the Romans, it is linked with the development of the human capacity for civilisation. Pre-Christian Germanic tribes were monogamous, Queen Boudicca the Celtic Pagan Queen was monogamous. And what about all the non-Christian tribes in South America who still live by ancient traditions - they pair off into family units.

In short, monogamy may have been our natural state 50,000 years ago, but the human mind/spirit has developed enormously since then and we have been monogamous for a very long time. The reason? Well it's a concept vital to forming ordered, productive communities. Those same communities would be chaotic if everyone went around freely screwing everyone. Perhaps that's where we're heading now.

My opinion as to why the sanctity of marriage is falling apart now:
We work longer hours, we travel further for work, and we relocate more than ever. This has resulted in the breakdown of both family and community ties. Leisure time and a good family/community support structure is vital to releasing stress, tension and frustration. Those methods of release are gone now and marriage seems to be more of a formality than through genuine love and support. Also, we are less and less familiar with our neighbours. In the close-knit communities of the past, it wasn't easy to get away with infidelity because everyone knew everyone else's business (sometimes this isn't such a bad thing).

you guys made good points but i think marriage ain't working because it has now become fashionable to satisfy your own needs regardless of others plus there is no guilt from infidelity because its not scrutinized by society. it doesn't degenerate ones image.

[edit on 12-5-2008 by DuneKnight]

Originally posted by Cythraul
My opinion as to why the sanctity of marriage is falling apart now:
We work longer hours, we travel further for work, and we relocate more than ever. This has resulted in the breakdown of both family and community ties. Leisure time and a good family/community support structure is vital to releasing stress, tension and frustration. Those methods of release are gone now and marriage seems to be more of a formality than through genuine love and support. Also, we are less and less familiar with our neighbours. In the close-knit communities of the past, it wasn't easy to get away with infidelity because everyone knew everyone else's business (sometimes this isn't such a bad thing).

definitely society changed becoming more vulnerable to family structure collapse but whats more interesting is the fact that society doesn't need the family structure anymore thus rendering the whole family/marriage thing useless even a novelty of sorts. thats why same sex couples could now raise kids of their own, sperm banks, single mothers, etc.

and i think people should have a look at this, because it proves that infidelity is only natural:

The sexy son hypothesis has been suggested as the origin of some aspects of human sexual behavior. In particular, it has been shown that human females are more attracted to traditionally masculine men ("cads") during the most fertile times of their menstrual cycles, and more attracted to relatively feminine men ("dads") during the remainder of the cycle.[2] These observations have led to the conclusion that infidelity is a natural occurrence in women, and evolutionarily advantageous, on the grounds that it will enable them to secure both the best genes and the best caregiver for their offspring. Sexy sons hypothesis

thats just one biological aspect of it, I'm not sure as of yet why males would sacrifice their marriage. unhappiness doesn't justify divorce because that state of being is normal, its when you are 'happy' thats not normal.

[edit on 12-5-2008 by DuneKnight]

reply to post by darkelf


Even though i'm not married(yet) lol, I don't think I could ever do that. The guilt I would have looming over my head would kill me and I would end up fessing up eventually.
Despite the fact that there have been many many chances for me to be with other women while dating one, I never ever acted on it. It's childish, selfish and just plain wrong.

I guess I was just brought up in a way that made me want to be more faithful to my significant other then the majority of those statistics

Originally posted by DuneKnight
and i think people should have a look at this, because it proves that infidelity is only natural:

The sexy son hypothesis has been suggested as the origin of some aspects of human sexual behavior. In particular, it has been shown that human females are more attracted to traditionally masculine men ("cads") during the most fertile times of their menstrual cycles, and more attracted to relatively feminine men ("dads") during the remainder of the cycle.[2] These observations have led to the conclusion that infidelity is a natural occurrence in women, and evolutionarily advantageous, on the grounds that it will enable them to secure both the best genes and the best caregiver for their offspring. Sexy sons hypothesis

It proves that infidelity was only natural in times when primal instinct dominated civility. A big change took place a number of millenia ago - the development of culture, tradition and order.

This is a complicated argument for me because I'm a fairly big proponent of Primitivism. Then again, there's "primitivism", and then there's "primitivism". By that I mean that we were once primal creatures but we then developed art, culture and religion. I support a kind of primitivism based upon the post-culture human (numbering about 40,000 years in age). Since then we've discovered the benefits of monogamy.

reply to post by Cythraul


i read an anthropological study once that labeled women as relating to nature while men as proponents of change and order. which is why many religions implemented in early history that restricted society from being primitive and any one who did not follow was socially ostracized. mind you that includes sacrifices and weird rituals as means of purification so it wasn't all good. this is tribal stuff, but now everything is global and it harbors many communities even in one country like US where there are polygamist cults. as now in society that rarely believes in something and if they are religious they believe that Jesus will forgive them no matter what, as long as you confess about it. there is no 'social outcasting' for things like divorce or not believing in marriage. and certainly there is no concepts of purification because its all nihilism baby.

[edit on 12-5-2008 by DuneKnight]

That's not true all the married women I have slept with love their husbands. Oh wait. Um...

Yes this is a problem and both sides are guilty of this issue. Married men have slept around on their wives for a long time and women are just bringing up the slack.

I think it's a power issue and has a lot to do with revenge for a percieved wrong or injustice.

Eventually the pendulum will swink back and marriage will be fashionable again. Why? Because it is safe and hard to achieve in today's shallow world. It will effectively be a status symbol.

1 in 4 teenage girls has a sexually transmitted disease. STD's are rising faster among senior citizens than any other demographic group.

And finally, no amount of money can buy a long and happy marriage, so therfore very few people achieve it, thusly making it a very rare and admirable commodity.

People always want what they can't have, so marriage will come around again.

When you live in a culture of lies, from our elected leaders to the pop culture hero's; it's bound to spill over into the general population.
How many people can truthfully say that they are happy in their own skin.
Almost with out exception, the people I associate with are obsessed with
changing their life style in some fashion. Very few are happy with their spouse, job, kids, station in life.

American culture is so dysfunctional, is it any wonder that the "sanctity of Marriage" is also part of the collateral damage?

Remember......

There are no limits
no rules
no excuses
and no whining

It's a brave new world, welcome to the monkey house!!

reply to post by whaaa


it is true that this seems to be an American thing, other countries have no problems with marriage. everyone remains faithful but i attribute that to arranged marriages and no pre-marital sex, actually people who are married as virgins are more likely to have a stable marriage.