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Hard Numbers: The Economy Is Much Worse Than You Know!

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posted on May, 12 2008 @ 08:45 PM
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reply to post by burdman30ott6
 



Like they're entitled to get so much for a personal investment of so little, ie wellfare, pushing the tax burden on someone else simply because that someone else is more successfull, etc.


Everyone is entitled to the means to secure the basic necessities of life.

If the government cannot manage an economy well enough to give everyone meaningful employment, so that they can pay for the basuc necessities of life, then they have no right stealing from the people in the form of taxes.

And if you want to be an American, then yes, you will have to help those less fortunate than you, and contribute to the common welfare. That is the price you pay for the right to compete in the free market.

Everyone has the right to not starve to death in the most powerful nation in the world. Everyone has the right to not freeze to death on the sidewalk in this capitol of capitalism...

EDIT to add:

I don't want to hear you cry about it, when someone comes in, ties up your family, and takes everything they can get their hands on. Don't say you weren't warned. The further down you push people, the more "entitled" they feel they have become.


[edit on 5/12/0808 by jackinthebox]




posted on May, 12 2008 @ 11:14 PM
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reply to post by burdman30ott6
 


Dude, no offense. We KNOW that money doesn't buy happiness.

But to be completely honest, there is something WRONG with the person who's family isn't getting essentials, and they happy about it.

I don't know about everyone else, but I feel a lot happier and less STRESSED when bills are paid, and at the end of the day my family still has food and a warm place to sleep.



posted on May, 13 2008 @ 12:31 AM
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reply to post by jackinthebox
 


Last time I read the post they didn't live in a box they lived in an apartment. It really isn't nice to belittle the people who post on here by saying they live in a box....i mean..come on man!!!! You however I have serious doubts about. A few months ago you said you lived in your car...and then on a different post you said you had a home...then it was you lived in an apartment. Then you posted that you were a cop but in another post you couldn't get a job at taco bell. You are one person who I now see that I can not believe in the least because you configure your posts to fit the thread and that your situation is not True at all, lies..lies..lies thaks jack...and anyone looking back will see the same thing. Shut up be the loser you claim to be and pay your $100 a year in taxes even though people like me pay almost 30x that to support you leaches and then go cash you welfare check and complain some more that you are not getting your due.



posted on May, 13 2008 @ 12:35 AM
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Originally posted by wutone

Originally posted by iiinvision


its not just about making money, first off..its about mastering it. Seeing how it works and learning. So what if your negative and when the lotto...the average american could spend that in 2.5 seconds and never even think about investing it. Rich does not mean wealthy.
Its not about luck its about a positive mindset. Neither do funds. Ideas are what matter. Creativity is what matters. A team of professionals is what matters. Due Diligence is what matters.
one can easily play armchair quarter back and think they know how it all works, but you don't know what you don't know.

The biggest myth is that you need money to make money...you really don't, but you have been subtly programmed to think you do.

All I know that its possible for anyone with the perseverance, education( not found in school or universities) and determination to amass billions and not spend it all.

MONEY DOESNT DISCRIMINATE
trust me



You sound like a Primerica salesperson.

Why is it that I always hear the "work hard, get ideas, be creative, invest right, be determined, save your money" its always from a rich republican radio host or from some guy trying to sell me into an MLM scheme?


Actually is sounds like iinvision is right....it works the same in large companies...work hard have good ideas and you will advance..do your job be normal and just meet your "goals" and you wont. Simple really, those who work hard, be it for themselves or other, will benefit. Why is it so hard for people to understand? It may be because there are so many lazy people who only want to do what they think is required and not a bit more..



posted on May, 13 2008 @ 12:40 AM
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reply to post by Stumpy1
 



...and then go cash you welfare check and complain some more that you are not getting your due.


I partake of no government benefits whatsoever.



A few months ago you said you lived in your car...and then on a different post you said you had a home...then it was you lived in an apartment.


Point of fact, I have not been homeless my entire life.



Then you posted that you were a cop but in another post you couldn't get a job at taco bell.


I have not been without a job my entire life either. So while I happen to be without a job at present, this happens to be the first time I have been without a job since I was fourteen years old.



You are one person who I now see that I can not believe in the least because you configure your posts to fit the thread and that your situation is not True at all, lies..lies..lies thaks jack...and anyone looking back will see the same thing


Accusing someone of being a liar is a very serious thing. Unless you can prove that I have lied about anything, I demand an apology. You would be wise to consider that I have all the time in the world to undertake a suit to offset any damages done by the defamation of my character.



Shut up be the loser you claim to be...


Unable to hold your own in a debate I see. :shk:



[edit on 5/13/0808 by jackinthebox]

[edit on 5/13/0808 by jackinthebox]



posted on May, 13 2008 @ 12:40 AM
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Originally posted by Yarky
reply to post by proteus33
 


In 2005, 91 million tax returns were filed. Of the 91 million returns, 28.4 million returns had an Adjusted Gross Income of 30,000 or less.

Source: www.irs.gov...



In 2004 i was one of those 24million who filed showing they only made 30k, i really made 45k but through loopholes and legal rights did not have to claim it. Most of those 24 million who only claimed 30k mad much more than that. It should not be so hard to understand that you post is just another statistic that is wrong and obscure.



posted on May, 13 2008 @ 12:47 AM
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Originally posted by Threadfall

Originally posted by krill
reply to post by Threadfall
 


well like you said "of able mind and body" were not all so lucky. also when your income dosent increase but the price of a normal months worth of food goes up 25 to 50 % depending on where you are personaly here as far as i can tell its up about 40 % then yes the economy which includes the price of standerd goods and services is bad.


I know that there are countless variables, and I did not imply that all who are poor are bums or failures. You, apparently, do have some kind of disability and for that I'm sorry. I also did not mean to imply the economy is booming; we're pretty much in a recession. I meant to highlight the fallacy that some people are making with their reasoning: i.e. I'm broke so the economy is bad. I know people, as with your situation, are struggling for real reasons and facing real hardships. But I imagine for every true blue person like you there are twice as many lazy, whiners. And I base that last assumption on nothing.


for weeks i have been seeing this increase in food prices and for weeks I have not had it substantiated at the grocery store, my wife and I buy the same things at the store week after week and have been for a few years, saturday we spent $93 and looking at reciept a year ago we spent 90$ for the exact same stuff. I just dont see it. Maybe if you shope at 7-11 it will happen but then again they charge 2-3x as much as a regular grocery store.



posted on May, 13 2008 @ 12:53 AM
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Originally posted by jackinthebox
reply to post by burdman30ott6
 



So don't bastardize the concept of persuit of happiness by trying to say it has anything to do with how much money you have or do not have.


You're a bastard if you think it's okay for a disabled person, who can't leave their house, to be systematically starved to death by circumstances well beyond their control. They should be happy about this?!

But I suppose you think they should shut off their internet access, their last vestige of liberty, and die in silence so that you don't have to be bothered. After all, hearing about disabled people starving to death might ruin your pretty day.

Hahaahaha...since when (other than in your fantasy land) does the internet equate to liberty????? The internet has nothing to do with liberation, you should know this SNIP
[edit on 13-5-2008 by Stumpy1]

Personal insult removed.

Mod Note: General ATS Discussion Etiquette – Please Review This Link.


[edit on 13/5/2008 by khunmoon]



posted on May, 13 2008 @ 01:01 AM
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Originally posted by jackinthebox
reply to post by burdman30ott6
 



Like they're entitled to get so much for a personal investment of so little, ie wellfare, pushing the tax burden on someone else simply because that someone else is more successfull, etc.


Everyone is entitled to the means to secure the basic necessities of life.

If the government cannot manage an economy well enough to give everyone meaningful employment, so that they can pay for the basuc necessities of life, then they have no right stealing from the people in the form of taxes.

And if you want to be an American, then yes, you will have to help those less fortunate than you, and contribute to the common welfare. That is the price you pay for the right to compete in the free market.

Everyone has the right to not starve to death in the most powerful nation in the world. Everyone has the right to not freeze to death on the sidewalk in this capitol of capitalism...

EDIT to add:

I don't want to hear you cry about it, when someone comes in, ties up your family, and takes everything they can get their hands on. Don't say you weren't warned. The further down you push people, the more "entitled" they feel they have become.


[edit on 5/12/0808 by jackinthebox]


Well maybe you should join the mentally unstable masses....you spout jibberish, the US you speak of is a very old Idea that like the bible has been interpreted out of existence, yet today we all work and pay our taxes, we actually WORK to eat and have amenities that are not needs because we can afford them. We also pay for people like you to sit on your ass and do absolutely nothing other than bitch about your lot in life because of bad choices you may have made in life that don;t allow you to advance, or just because you are simply lazy and expect the government to take care of you. Our founding fathers would roll over in their graves if they knew what our country had turned into, yet were they alive today they would still work just as hard as they did back then to get along, learn from those around you. ( and not those in the soup kitchen you get your free food from)

[edit on 13-5-2008 by Stumpy1]



posted on May, 13 2008 @ 01:02 AM
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reply to post by LostNemesis
 


If you want to get "essentials" then work for them and earn them.



posted on May, 13 2008 @ 01:10 AM
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reply to post by Stumpy1
 



If you want to get "essentials" then work for them and earn them.


And what about the people who get up and go to work everyday, often during holidays and without a day off because they are working several jobs, but still cannot afford basic necessities? Meanwhile, people like you have enough money to pay people to find ways for you to get out of paying your share of the taxes.




posted on May, 13 2008 @ 01:16 AM
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the key is not only to work hard,but to work smart. To use BOTH sides of your brain. most of this country are strictly right brained thinkers and have been taught to suppress the left side. Being an ambidextrous individual, I see both sides of the coin.
when you can change your perspective and open your mind you will begin to see with clarity. Logic is great, but this universe isn't just logical. There is more to it than just the physical world you experience with your five senses.
What you believe to be reality is only subjective to your experiences.
I invest and make money and am not a middle man. I have a team of professionals that took hard work to build and assemble, but the fruits of my HARD WORK equate to getting leads on apartment complexes, that have not yet even hit the market.
To answer one person's question on apartment investing, its very simple.
You buy a house, your ability to buy is based on your personal wealth and income.
You purchase a multimillion dollar apartment complex with a cap rate of 8 percent or higher, your ability to purchase is based on the fact that it is a money generating asset..
very simple, but many myths and disinformation, and lack of real world knowledge don't let you see the truth.
I suggest we all learn to master money because that will make the biggest difference in the defeat of despotism that is knocking on our doors as we bicker about who is wiser or who is right and who is wrong.
But I now realize that most must first master their emotions, before attaining material wealth.
most of this countries beautiful people are slaves to not only money, but their emotions as well.

Dreamers are creators...and when you learn to use your brain to its full potential you will quite categorizing everything and judging things you don't have any knowledge about...

have a great day and enjoy your life...

become financially independent.
If you think the whole world is going to fall because we are entering a depression then your sadly disinformed. Money has always been around and it will always be...learn to master it and it will work for you..

all the naysayers and chicken littles are simply people who don't believe in themselves and project their realities on others because they themselves dont believe they can do it. You are a powerful human being with amazing gifts...be grateful for your opposable thumbs because dogs and cats around the world are jealous



posted on May, 13 2008 @ 01:25 AM
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reply to post by iiinvision
 


As you know, I find fault with your theory. But you do seem to be one awfully optimistic character.

And while I do my fair share of bitching and complaining here on ATS, I start every morning with a smile, and carry myself accordingly out in the real world. I am not defeated.



posted on May, 13 2008 @ 02:06 AM
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reply to post by iiinvision
 


starred !!!

i liked your post , its optimisitic , whatever come may , this is the attitude people need , ....



posted on May, 13 2008 @ 11:41 AM
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Originally posted by jackinthebox
reply to post by burdman30ott6
 



So don't bastardize the concept of persuit of happiness by trying to say it has anything to do with how much money you have or do not have.


You're a bastard if you think it's okay for a disabled person, who can't leave their house, to be systematically starved to death by circumstances well beyond their control. They should be happy about this?!

But I suppose you think they should shut off their internet access, their last vestige of liberty, and die in silence so that you don't have to be bothered. After all, hearing about disabled people starving to death might ruin your pretty day.



Don't try to put words in my mouth. My post was taking exception with your assinine comment that tried to tie in these peoples' situation with some failure of our system under the guise of it violating life, liberty, and the persuit of happiness. NOWHERE in the Declaration of Independance nor in the Constitution does it say "if you cannot fund your own persuit of happiness the rest of society will foot the bill for you." Nor does it promise to alleviate you from citcumstances which may arise that affect what your personal definition of happiness is. I could care less if they keep their internet, disconnect their internet, or whatever. (Though I do find it very interesting that the defense for having the internet was that it's "bundled with their cable and telephone." Last time I checked, cable TV wasn't considered a necessity of life...)

Once again I notice that when the chips are down, you head straight for the emotional sympathy arguments, dude. Reread my reply, notice that the only thing I brought up was that your narrow view of happiness reeks of crap, and then explain to me how this:


But I suppose you think they should shut off their internet access, their last vestige of liberty, and die in silence so that you don't have to be bothered.

has anything whatsoever to do with me saying that happiness is found inside a man and shouldn't center around what's happening around him. Your reply was purely one of a poster who realizes their logic has catastrophically failed them, so they reach for the flailing emotional sympathy post to make the person they're debating a point with look cold and heartless and (hopefully) redirect the conversation away from their own inadequecies. This is like me trying to deflect your argument about the price of tea in China by accusing you of killing kittens.

As for the "last vestige of liberty" comment, I see you're completely ignorant to the real concept of liberty. Liberty, like happiness, comes from within, not without. They're disabled? Whoo-hoo! What the hell does that have to do with their liberty and their freedoms on a politic-social level? Not a damn thing. Liberties aren't selective or taylored to special needs, my friend. They are (or at least were intended to be) universal and pertained purely to government action directed at restricting a person's freedoms via legal edict, which has in no way happened here.

Being able to afford a computer, cable, internet, a PS3, steak for dinner, etc isn't a promised liberty in any way. Being able to purchase those items freely if you have the financial resources is liberty.




Everyone has the right to not starve to death in the most powerful nation in the world.
Everyone has the right to not freeze to death on the sidewalk in this capitol of capitalism...


Everyone has the right to go out and take a job, including jobs that they may consider demeaning and beneath them, and build their own economic status to whatever level they are willing to work towards because the most powerfull capitalist nation on Earth isn't communist Russia.




I don't want to hear you cry about it, when someone comes in, ties up your family, and takes everything they can get their hands on. Don't say you weren't warned. The further down you push people, the more "entitled" they feel they have become.

You won't. You will, however, read about how that someone was found shot dead just inside the door because I don't play the victim game. There are two types of people in this country, victims and successes. The victims sit around waiting for the government to come in and give them their handouts, protect them, and provide excuses for them to not succeed. The successes get off their asses, put away their little crying towels, and take control over their own future. There is no such thing as fate, life is purely what you make it. The problem in this country is we've built up huge safety nets of excuses to shelter the losers and the victims from the reality of life. If you rob a gas station, it's not your fault but the system failed you and you're impoverished... if you can't find a job at McDonalds you shouldn't be expected to take one washing toilets because it's demeaning and the system has failed you... if you don't plan for your own future retirement and find yourself in a house you can no longer afford and broke it isn't your fault because the system failed you. Bull!

If you invested even part of the effort you waste trying to make excuses for yourself and blame everyone but yourself for your current situation, you'd find yourself able to change it. Instead all I read is excuse after excuse ranging from "I have a bad knee" to "I can't relocate" to "I'm overqualified for all the jobs." Whine, whine, whine, from the entitlement crowd. You're not alone, so I guess that's all the justification you need.



posted on May, 13 2008 @ 02:59 PM
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Off topic much?

The economy is awful I make 8.25/hr and its the low end of the payscale here and I cant afford to own a car. At least I have a nice house over my head and I'm not starving but once upon a time I was livin large on credit. Thats how we all got where we are at. We consume everything, we produce nothing.

I think if we want our economy to really turn around we need to make some significant radical changes. recall all our forces from overseas. cancel all debts eliminate money and private banking and government. Keep maybe 1% of our government and the bill of rights and the constitution. start our own form of money based on actual productivity so there are no freeloaders and we can export rather than just importing. A real focus on massive public building projects to ensure everyone has water and food and energy, hopefully all solar.

on top of that we need to stop designing things to break and start building things that will last forever. The mayans can build a temple thats still looking fine a couple thousand years later and we cant build a goddamn pair of shoes that won't wear out in 3 weeks? Our civilization is retarded in the extreme. our existence, our development as a life form on earth has been retarded. The real conspiracy is the human drive to prevent others from achieving their full potential through tyranny and opression.



posted on May, 13 2008 @ 03:10 PM
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reply to post by Stumpy1
 


Stumpy, you fail to understand that capitalism is a game played by rules. You want everyone to follow those rules, and assume all is well. However, when the rules stop serving the individual, rage will ensue, and then you will have someone busting into your house, raping your family and taking your stuff.

This is why Theodore Roosevelt brokered many deals with big business. He knew one thing for certain, if you did not make sure that poverty remained below a certain level, then the masses would rise up and revolt. This isn't about liberal bleeding hearts, this is about being able to allow those who have acquired wealth through the means of capitalism to maintain that wealth without a ever increasing fear of the poor.

I don't understand why some people can't see the logic in reducing poverty. Not from a humanitarian perspective, but simply from a perspective of greed. If you are greedy, then you will *want* to make sure there is a cap on poverty so your stuff is safer.



posted on May, 13 2008 @ 03:18 PM
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Originally posted by Stumpy1


Our founding fathers would roll over in their graves if they knew what our country had turned into, yet were they alive today they would still work just as hard as they did back then to get along, learn from those around you. ( and not those in the soup kitchen you get your free food from)

[edit on 13-5-2008 by Stumpy1]


You may or may not be right but I do know this the founding fathers would be rolling in their graves if they knew

We gave control of money and economy to private organizations. FED, IRS, etc.

We gave the right to these same organizations to take YOUR property for no reason but to "better the neighborhood" in Eminent Domain

We gave the right of privacy away to the government that is sworn to protect it the patriot act

We gave the right of ownership of gold if you dont think the governments policies are looking in your interests Executive Order 6102 Government Gold Seizure

We police the world and push our ways of life on other countries

We police our own citizens to the point to where you cant smoke a natural grown item or have sex with a man or woman of your choice and give them a little compensation for their deed without being charged.

Hell people cant even practice their own religion or ways of life without the government knocking down the doors and taking children and family Waco and Eldorado Tx

The fact is Thomas Jefferson and who I feel is one of the most important players even more so than Washington would be dumbfounded on the stuff we the power allow to happen today. Helping people out in a bad situation may or may not be one of them but I will say this as long as you have the economy being controlled by private companies then if there is not a fair shake for all then the government needs to compensate for that...



posted on May, 13 2008 @ 03:25 PM
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Originally posted by burdman30ott6

Everyone has the right to go out and take a job, including jobs that they may consider demeaning and beneath them, and build their own economic status to whatever level they are willing to work towards because the most powerfull capitalist nation on Earth isn't communist Russia.


Everyone does have the right to get a job but due to a lax government who have let a lot of the normal jobs wealth to rise right to the top a lot of your normal working class jobs are having problems paying the bills. I mean minimum wage is $5 an hour but lets say our example makes $10. 40 hour week thats $400 bucks or $1600 a month. I dont know about you but even the cheapest of places to find to rent maybe $400 a month and even if you drive a crap car with no payments there is that pesky $100 a month car insurance. Add in the $400 health insurance and $50 to $100 a week in gas + Food + electric+ normal living expenses I mean a normal guy at $10 an hour cant survive...imagine making minimum wage.

Im fortunate to not be in this position but I am lucky I took some risks and they worked some people take those same risks and it doesnt work so there they are.

The top 10% holds 60% of the wealth and you can slice it all you want but its a fact. I wouldnt be to quick to judge other people who are in a rough time because let me tell you times may be good for you now but they can turn on a dime. Welcome to capitalism baby!!!!



[edit on 13-5-2008 by mybigunit]



posted on May, 13 2008 @ 03:29 PM
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Hell people cant even practice their own religion or ways of life without the government knocking down the doors and taking children and family Waco and Eldorado Tx


See, this one is where you lose me. If someone's religion and/or way of life includes pedophilia, then there's a major problem with that. That isn't just being said as a moral standpoint, but also as a common sense standpoint. We restrict, with virtually no complaint or argument against it, those under the age of 17/18 from going to an adult movie, purchasing overly violent video games, parental advisory music, firearms, tobacco, and it jumps up to 21 in the case of alcohol. We do this for many reasons, one of the primary ones being that science demonstrates their brains haven't developed enough to make intelligent decisions about things like that. For the life of me I don't see how anyone can use a group of pedophiles being arrested in a government raid as justification for removal of our rights.



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