Hard Numbers: The Economy Is Much Worse Than You Know!

Originally posted by whitewave
If the dollar is becoming fatally devalued and the global economy is spiralling into oblivion, then the rich will NOT be getting richer: their "dollars" will be just as worthless as the disinfranchised poor. This point can not have escaped the attention of the super rich.

The rich already know this. The rich have been converting their dollars to euros to get ready for it.

reply to post by whitewave


Well look at it this way. If the global economy really does start to collapse and then the U.S. economy, being rich won't really friggin matter anymore. The other day I was joking with my wife about Mad Max and how it could eventually be like that where people will kill others for gas. It probably won't, but In a way I wasn't joking. Noone knows what will happen once the oil prices are too high for anyone to reasonably afford except the rich.

We have no alternative energy lifeboat in place. What would we do?
Congressmen and Senators really can't find anything better than saying "well maybe we should use the oil reserve"? Everything is a temporary fix. There has been nothing done to ensure a permanent solution in case worse comes to worse.

-ChriS

reply to post by whitewave


If the dollar is becoming fatally devalued and the global economy is spiralling into oblivion, then the rich will NOT be getting richer: their "dollars" will be just as worthless as the disinfranchised poor. This point can not have escaped the attention of the super rich.

as im sure you know the superwealthy are not so dumb as to put all their fortune in one option such as dollars or euros. they have large investiments in preciouse metals, diamonds and other valuable stones. many have connections to illeagle efforts such as drugs, weapons, pornography, and human trafficing etc. they have realestate all over the planet. they own large amounts of livestock and farms to grow food and own factorys all over the world that produce variose goods that retain value if not increase in value should everything go south.

I believe the manipulation of the markets, deflation of economy and general political policy changes have been orchestrated; not to increase the wealth of the already wealthy (although that is a perk for the short-term). There MUST be a different goal and I believe that goal is consolidation of power.

here we partialy agree i also belive its a play to grab more power over the world, but i also belive theyre smart enough not to make themselves poor while doing so. and have theyre money properly diversified and invested to also profit from the down fall as well as inherit more power.

When (not if) the global economy completely collapses, the powers that be will introduce a system in which "no man may buy or sell save he have the mark of the beast" (whatever that mark may be). Even if you don't believe in prophecy or the bible in general, you can probably see for yourself that we are heading for a major meltdown that will require some unique overhaul to correct/control.

as far as the biblical stuff goes sience im not christian and belive revelations was a metaphore for the downfall of rome who was persecuting the christians at the time of its wrighting by a man exiled by the romans. ill take the whole prophecy angle with a grain of salt. as for taking extreme measures to control and correct the situations i belive martial law, a heavy dose of globalazation and being properly prepared means that their means of control of the situations will allready be ready to be put into place.

If you are one of those blowhards that says you'll "shoot the bastards that try to take your stuff", let me present this idea: Will you even be home when the bastards come to steal your stuff? Will you be at work trying to earn enough money to get stuff and pay for the house it all sits in? Will you have your gun with you or will that be stolen out of your house too? Will you take on, single-handedly, the 15 armed guys in flak jackets kicking in your door because you're one of those food-hoarding, gun-owning, defiant non-conformists?

many people who belive in the ill strike back idea arent as stupid as you think many of them have over the years created weapons and equipment caches for just such a situation. many people have been preping for this for years some for decades so your simple situation their wont work for everyone of the so called blowhards.

Our economy is based on a flawed system. In order to be profitable/solvent, costs must be kept lower than the price you pay to make your widgits. SOMEONE has to make less money than you do. We used to have slavery; now we have hoardes of illegal immigrants. Next, we'll have slavery again, only this time it will be on a massive scale and not sugar-coated as in "wage slave". Actual slavery in which your life is valuable only as long as it serves the needs of someone else. Look up the definition of the word "authority" and see if it sounds like anything you want to submit to. Power/control/authority is the goal, not more money.

once again we partialy agree i belive mass scale slavery and detention will takeplace aswell as large scale depopulation but i also belive the powers that be will be sitting pretty in luxury and oppulance as the rest of us either fight and die or toil in the dirt.

reply to post by iiinvision


Only one problem (though I aspire to be my own boss as well). If everyone worked for themselves... who would work for you? Most business can not be done by one person alone.

I dunno about that. I always thought the same thing until I started running my freelance drafting/CAD business from home. When I am doing projects I make 42 an hour for my efforts (sometimes more). It can be done you just can't inundate yourself with work even though it's tempting because of the extra money.

I've been running this business now for 3 years and so far it's made some good money (though not really anything to brag about). I would have made more with a full-time job working for some windbag boss.

I just got offered a full-time drafting job and I'm tempted to take it I'm just not sure yet. The amount they offered would mean alot more than I'm making now...

But what I'm saying is if you have a computer, money to pay for a business license, and a certificate or some other credential you can use to market yourself then you are set. I got certified in drafting technology and I am finishing my degree right now. I don't even need insurance because noone comes here. We always meet at the client's place of chosing first, I do the work, then I drop the stuff off.

I know people who have run drafting businesses by themselves for over 10 years and aren't even certified. This one lady I know even got kicked out of college for bad grades and she still makes money doing this by herself. You just gotta have the drive and determination to get started.

-ChriS

[edit on 18-5-2008 by BlasteR]

[edit on 18-5-2008 by BlasteR]

I agree, I think that oil, not gold, is the current standard that sets the value of currency, and as the oil supple slowly falls behind demand, the value of the currency in which gold is traded will de-value. The Euro can't prop up the devaluation of currency as oil become ever more scarce. More and more resources are going to have to be devoted to energy production, and I think this is the bottom line.

There is turnover in the ranks of the super rich. That which makes one group rich, takes away wealth from others. The new markets replace the old, and there is shake among the most wealthy as well as among all the classes. Who suffers the most falls along the lines of who is in the worst position when the changes come. This mostly means the poor who are in the areas affected the most, but the middle class and the super rich in these areas are affected as well.

I see the beginning of end of the industrial era with the arrival of peak oil, but I do not see Apocalypse, I see a new, better age, the information age, rising from ashes of the old era. Yes, I think we are in for a global population reduction, and it is sad, but something that needs to be happening. People are having fewer children, and this is the smart thing to do. Technology has provided us with the tools for economic independence, and the internet gives us the means to escape the control of IC's. That is the key. The industrial age ushered in a new age where wealth accumulated among a few in a way that human history rarely sees. I think the information age will be one with the wealth spread far more evenly. It isn't going to happen all at once, but the time is coming.

reply to post by krill


Yes, I'm sure it's true that the super rich have diversified their wealth. That's investing 101. Everyone knows to diversify and not have all their eggs in one basket. The point I was trying to make is that even with diversification into various markets, if the markets all crash, the super rich won't have anyone to do the work of those market or mine their precious metals or farm their supply of food or build their sumptuous edifices. THEY might be able to afford the necessities of life as well as everything else, even if it takes a barrel full of money to buy it but who will PROVIDE those things for them to buy?

Already many farmers are saying it's not worth going out to the fields to farm because the amount of money they'll get for all their hard work, time and efforts won't equal (much less make a profit) what their costs are to grow a crop. Same thing with other industries. People can't afford to drive to work and pay a babysitter to make it worth while.

If the GLOBAL economy crashes, it won't matter that wise investors have diversified into other forms of exchange (euros, etc.).

By the way, to whom do Americans owe the national debt? I know that if I go get a loan, I have to have collateral, something of worth equal to the debt, to qualify for a loan. If America owes trillions of dollars in debt, to whom do we owe it? What did we put up as collateral? The East coast? The entire country and all its people?

Yes, I'm sure it's true that the super rich have diversified their wealth. That's investing 101. Everyone knows to diversify and not have all their eggs in one basket. The point I was trying to make is that even with diversification into various markets, if the markets all crash, the super rich won't have anyone to do the work of those market or mine their precious metals or farm their supply of food or build their sumptuous edifices. THEY might be able to afford the necessities of life as well as everything else, even if it takes a barrel full of money to buy it but who will PROVIDE those things for them to buy?

as you said in your previouse post there will be slavery , they wont need to pay for there mining and farmimng and workers in there factorys . slaves will be doing all the labor and be getting paid more then likly in food at the detention camps. preciouse metals and stones have remained valuable sience civilazation has begune and i doubt they will lose their worth suddenly because fiat currency tanks.

Already many farmers are saying it's not worth going out to the fields to farm because the amount of money they'll get for all their hard work, time and efforts won't equal (much less make a profit) what their costs are to grow a crop. Same thing with other industries. People can't afford to drive to work and pay a babysitter to make it worth while.

well those farmers wont have much choice when theyre looking down a barrel pointed at them or their family "work or you and your loved ones are dead". i think i know what most will choose and so do you if you think about it realisticly. they want food well they will have to work for it or starve to death.

If the GLOBAL economy crashes, it won't matter that wise investors have diversified into other forms of exchange (euros, etc.).

i beg to differ i belive their planning will pay off, the metals, stones, realestate and other resources will be valuable and tradeable amongst each other for goods . goods that will be made by slave labor in factorys, farms, mines and slaughter houses they own .

By the way, to whom do Americans owe the national debt? I know that if I go get a loan, I have to have collateral, something of worth equal to the debt, to qualify for a loan. If America owes trillions of dollars in debt, to whom do we owe it? What did we put up as collateral? The East coast? The entire country and all its people?

your thinking of our national debt as comprable to a personal loan by a bank. it dont works that way. as far as i can tell it works more like a loan from a loan shark you owe what you borrowed plus high intrest and other nations have bought up our markers or debt so instead of oweing one entity we now owe many and these nations can hold it over our heads as a bargining chip or leverage to get the us to pass legislation, laws, trade treatys ect in their favor or they will call in our debt which they know we cant afford to pay .

reply to post by krill


As far as the discussion about precious metals that you are having, I'm not so sure that even after the collapse of our economy (if that were to happen) that the rich would be sitting pretty. Most economies are less resilient than ours as I said before so wouldn't the biggest most resilient economies be the last to go bye bye?

What I'm implying is that by the time our economy collapses the global economy would pretty much be a thing of the past. There would be no reason for money or currency. Precious metals maybe but how? Especially seeing that we are a society that is catered to and everything is given to us. Generally, People don't know how to mine for precious metals and even if they could how would they know what to do with them? It would be like the movie idiocracy only people aren't idiots they would simply be ill-equipped to handle their situation. Especially people who live in the major cities. Wouldn't it be more like Mad Max where gas is money and life is simply a struggle for survival? The rich may have their money but it wouldn't make much of a difference. It just all depends on how bad it really gets or if our economy collapses at all. We still have time to make changes for the better.

We who live in the boonies (I live in Alaska) are usually more capable of fending for ourselves if we have to. This is why I like being in Alaska anyway. If worse comes to worse I'll be set. Unless we get hit by a comet or something.

reply to post by BlasteR


Okay, but John at McD's doesn't have a certificate, can't draft, can't afford college and doesn't have a computer. He's pulling down $800 a month and about $700 to $750 goes to living (roof, vehicle, food, etc.) He, because $50 doesn't really do much in the big scheme, blows the other $50.

Let's say he gets smart. Starts saving that $50. What can John do, on $50 a month while holding down his job at McD's to keep adding to his $50, that requires only himself.

Possibly lawn care on the weekends. Might work, if another business isn't already taken that industry away. That's only seasonal but it's a chance. Spend $100 (two months) on a Lawn Mower and Weed Eater (if he can get that good a deal for used equipment) and toss them in the trunk with a tie down. He's got a business, one that at current doesn't even need a liscenes or pay taxes (though richer clients might turn him away as he doesn't have insurance and such).

It's a start and a rough one, but can happen. Won't feed a family, but he might grow it into something by that time, who knows. Outside of that, what can people already on the short do?

I do apologise, I apparently was out of context. I did state it's hard to have a business without employees, you showed one. I'm sure there are others. (P.I., Lawyer, some profitable ones as such. Agent, even.) Usually not businesses those with little money and little education can get.

Usually the money is the kicker, as many with out H.S. Diplomas have grown to be millionaires.

In the Lawn Business John would eventually spread out, get more yards, maybe do more types of work (Tree Limb Removal, Bush Trimming, Etching or Trimming, Planting) thus needing laborers. Or maybe needing some one to manage it all, if he's the dirty hands guy. Probably both.

Growth, to be financially sound (as you say, you are considering taking a job working for some one else again, obviously *not a slieght to you* the deal is good enough to consider versus what you make now with your freedoms of being your own boss) is the objective being looked at.

I agree, you are right. There are businesses that one person can run. And that is very helpful. Let's be more so by finding other things, less exspensive or reliant on education, that people can do to get out of current plights.

The biggest thing is this. People must step up for themselves. Don't be afraid to take the chance. People stay where they are usually due to fear, fear of risk and fear of success (what DOES one do when his idea works and now he's actually RESPONSIBLE for it all???)

Back in 2002 my husband and I moved back to Maine and we lived below the poverty line, his work was bringing in $250 a month, work is scarce there and getting work was on a whisper and a prayer. My insurance money was $490 a month from my accident. Yet we had 2 children and a baby on the way. We still had to pay land payment, and insurance on our car. As well as diapers for 2 children.

As for food stamps we got a Big $120 a month for 4 people. When my youngest was born we went up to $172 a month food stamps, try buying formula and feeding you family for a month on that.

It can be done, but my advice is that people need to realize there are more folks out there really needing help. I know we needed it and never really got it. That is why I am so ticked now that I live in NC. Here folks let the government pay there $500 - $700 a month rent, drive around in nice cars, and are getting food stamps and welfare and still wearing designer clothes. That just ticks me off. Yet folks like my aunt who gets disability and owns her own home only gets $35 a month food stamps. And her disability is only $369 a month. And she drives around in an old pinto car that has got to be a good 30 years old. Yet she who needs it doesnt get crap.

I think what we need is for the State to start truly looking into who can work and isnt, and whom really needs the help. That would help our economy a bit more then what they are now doing.

Hilda

reply to post by poet1b

This mostly means the poor who are in the areas affected the most, but the middle class and the super rich in these areas are affected as well.

I agree with two out of three here. The super rich, or the elites, will not be affected. They never are. When the Great Depression hit, people were literally driven from their homes by the millions, and starved. But the elites didn't feel a tremor in their lifestyle. The only thing that they had to fear was that the people would upset the staus quo and revolt. I know this for a fact.

Right now, what we are seeing, is the deliberate collapse of the Dollar. Peak oil is a myth. They want to collapse the Dollar to consolidate power. The NAU and the Amero will probably be put in place within five years. once this happens, you will see these blocs start popping up all over the world. Europe was a sort of test run. But when it happens to the US, it will be like a levy break. I expect world war again as well. Probably much longer and drawn out than the others. And certainly far more devastating.

reply to post by whitewave

If America owes trillions of dollars in debt, to whom do we owe it? What did we put up as collateral? The East coast? The entire country and all its people?

The answer would be "the entire country and all its people," starting in 1933. We owe the international banking elite. The World Bank and IMF by way of the Federal Reserve.

Some of this is explained here...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Be warned, the truth will probably be hard to take. You will find in that thread, that you are quite literally a privately owned commodity, a slave. And this is not a metaphor.




[edit on 5/19/0808 by jackinthebox]

reply to post by BradKell


Put it to you this way.
I had to get out of the military early in January 2004 due to a disability Not one person said goodbye.

My wife (at the time)had separated from me and moved back home to the lower 48 (we later got divorced)

I had no job, no money, no way to pay rent, electricity, etc..

My roommate moved out without telling me leaving me with bills to pay since we had split everything in the past.

I introduced him to a great girl. She moved in with him, they both moved out a month later without saying anything. (He ended up marrying this girl BTW)

January 28 2004 my apartment burns down and I lose everything I ever owned. I had gone to sleep the night before at 1230AM. I awoke at 7AM to flames burning the hair off my head.

Had to move in with parents at 25 years old

Truck gets repoed a month later

..
My life started 4 months after the fire... If I can come this far in 4 years anyone can.

-ChriS









[edit on 19-5-2008 by BlasteR]

reply to post by krill


That is the point I was trying to make, krill; that if the economy tanks, slavery will be the next item of business on the agenda. No thanks, I think I'll take my chances elsewhere.

As for precious metals retaining their value, historically, yes. Since slaves won't be able to pay for them, only the super rich will be able to trade with precious metals and the entire power struggle to be "top dog" will continue within the narrowed scope of those that still have the chips (precious metals) with which to play. I suppose that could continue until there's only one crowing cock on top of the whole stinking dung heap but, really, what's the point?

I think there will be a few powerful elite that won't bicker among themselves over such things as precious metals or who owns more slaves, etc. and they'll just divvy us up like the culled cattle we will have become, running the world according to their god-like visions of personal utopia.

The national debt hanging over our heads by the countries to whom we are indebted and who insist that we pass legislation favorable to their agenda ARE slave masters and being indebted to them IS slavery. How is that different than looking down the barrel of a gun? When we give up our personal and national sovereignty, we default to slave status.

I don't even like being a wage slave. Like most Americans, I have to get up every morning and spend the minutes of my life making someone else rich so that I can be allowed to spend the few dollars I make on my hovel and gruel. That is not life. That is not freedom.

In 15 months I will be completely debt free; no house or car payment and no personal debt. If the economy gets bad enought that I can't pay my property tax, then I lose my home. If some rich corporation sees my property and cries "eminent domain" then I lose my home. What is the point of working one'self into an early grave just to have all the products of your labor stolen by those with more ruthless ambitions? And where is the remedy and recourse? If you protest, you're a "terrorist" and tossed into prison. How is that system not slavery? We're already slaves. The only difference between the slavery of today and the slavery to come is that, for now, we are slaves with gucchi handbags and wifi. (Until we get robbed by someone with no gucci handbag or wifi).

This is why I believe there is cause for alarm in our current economy. The current system is not just setup to fall but to change/transform into something far worse. A fallen economy can be brought back from the brink as we saw after the last "great depression". The current falling economy has no such altruistic designs.

reply to post by whitewave


see the thing is i preety much agree with everything youve said. my problem and apperant diversion from you on this topic is the idea that the elite wont be well off because of this. see if they indeed planed the collapse and iv seen much that points to this. dont you think they would have thought it out well enought to not only survive but prosper under such a plan?

reply to post by jackinthebox


I always here about our debt. What about the debt owed to us by other countries? Did we not rebuild Germany, France, and other countries after the destruction of WWI and WWII? Wasn't that damage caused by forces other than our owns?

Problem is, the Nation feels these were good deeds that would be politically repayed. I'm sure we could cash in, if we were so inclined. As we are not so inclined, apparently this 'debt' isn't something dire to overcome... for what ever reason.

reply to post by BradKell

He's got a business, one that at current doesn't even need a liscenes or pay taxes (though richer clients might turn him away as he doesn't have insurance and such).

Technically, that is incorrect. You do in fact have to set up a business tax ID, and aquire insurance. And they will come down on you for it. The illegals get away with it because they either work for an established company, or their clients come to them.

But if you're a gringo who goes out knocking on doors to drum up business, you'll get nailed. And I wouldn't recommend going to stand on the corner in the morning with the illegals who are waiting for someone to offer them work. You'll get a knife in the gut.

One other not, in my town, soliciting is illegal. You can't knock on any ones door looking for work. They will arrest you for it, and then find out you don't have a business tax ID or insurance.

I did that sort of work for many summers, but have been driven out of the business because of these reasons and a few others. I had a truck, mowers, chainsaws, and some other equipment.

I had to run from a job one day, when the guy I was working with made a bad cut taking down a tree. He pinched the saw, and the only thing that kept the tree from dropping onto a house was the fact that we had tied off. Never did find out what happened.

But long story short, I was driven out of work by regulations and illegals.

reply to post by hildar


You are in no position to judge the needs of others, or arbitrate who is worthy and who is not.

The real fact of the matter is, that if there were meaningful opportunity, most people would choose to work and be a productive citizen. Welfare is no picnic. The stereotypes of welfare queens no longer reflect the reality. Here you are pointing finger at people who are in the same boat as you. You're a victim of "divide and conquer." Fighting over the table scraps, while the master fattens himself up on your misery.

As far as I'm concerned. I could care less if there are a few people out there who are beating the system. Their gains are a pittance compared to the sieve of overall government spending. Do you realize that nearly a third of our national debt, BILLIONS of dollars, we lost by the Pentagon. Not spent on wars or new bombers. THEY LOST IT! Rumsfeld himself admitted that the funds could not be accounted for on 9/10/01.

reply to post by BlasteR

My life started 4 months after the fire... If I can come this far in 4 years anyone can.

I admire your perserverence through such hard times, and congradulate you on your success. However, that in no way means that anyone can do what you have done. Every person is unique, with unique circumstances. There may have been help or options that you took for granted, and never truly recognized, that others do not have.

I have a cousin who is VERY well off. All she does is talk about all the hard work she did, and how she did it all by herself. Not that she didn't work hard, but it is a slap in the face to the rest of the family that supported her for many years, and helped her in times of significant troubles and turmoil.