The ATS Issues Thread

I just received a mass U2U regarding the banning of two members that made sexually inappropriate comments in ATS chat. I have never used ATS chat rooms.

I would wager the vast majority of ATS posters do NOT use chat. Why send a negative, somewhat threatening U2U message to ALL users when the problem involved TWO users and most members probably have not ever, nor plan to ever, visit the ATS chat rooms?

When I receive a U2U from the ATS staff I expect it to be a happy message saying I earned points for a comment in a thread. I do not see the point in sending out a negative message to ALL members when the issue was so minor (and yes, two obnoxious posters in a chat room is minor).


[edit on 21-9-2008 by Sonya610]

reply to post by Sonya610



I agree with that.

All the messages i keep getting recently are "if you do this you will be banned" "If you say this you'll be banned"

And i know it gets sent to all 9207 active members(or however many) in the last 30 days, but as has been pointed out, do we really all need to be told?

Can't you make it more applicable, like for chat users only, or people that make podcasts or whatever the issue is?
Too many negative messages recently and i feel as if a massive shift is taking place right under our noses.

reply to post by Sonya610

I totally agree with you and wish we lived in a world where all people were decent enough to follow the simple rules a free service asks of us to participate, but we don't.

The reason a few bad apples can spoil the whole bunch is sure as heck if we sent these messages only to the people we "thought" were involved someone else would violate the rules and have the out that they did not receive the "fair warning".

We are going through a house-cleaning of sorts in both chat and BTS and apologize for the mess on aisle 14.

Springer...

..no doubt twice as many people will start using chat now.

I didn't mind getting the message as last time trolls hit it was pretty organised. Thanks for the heads up.

Seeing as none of the points in my post were addressed I will ask just one question.

Why was Dodgygeeza's already closed ''everyone has their price'' thread moved to BTS?

Originally posted by Corum
Why was Dodgygeeza's already closed ''everyone has their price'' thread moved to BTS?

It was moved to the "Rant" forum on BTS... an appropriate alternative to removing it.

We long ago established that this "ATS Issues" thread is the appropriate place to engage in a running dialog on various issues our members bring up.

First I apologize for being "late to the party" so to speak, I wanted to take some time and think things over prior to posting. This is in regards to the forum closure and the brand exclusivity requirements and so on.

I'm an information / data and document mgt architect and have designed and built several systems for large clients based on "crowd sourcing" methodology. The few times I've done so for media companies I have consistently run into the same issue.

They want the crowd "goodies" but seem to want to ignore the true benefit of a crowd sourced information database, that of "crowd wisdom. They want show ideas and a built in audience of pre-determined viewers whose subject preferences are easily predictable - it does make a very effective presentation to advertisers after all. They don't want the "crowd" to tell them anything beyond that though. Present a show on Roswell but ignore the crowd as to what they believe actually happened in favor of an angle for favorable to advertisers, for example.

I understand ATS had a prior mutually beneficial arrangement with another show and it's not surprising the agencies and production entities would want to take a "brand exclusive" approach but ATS more than likely could have argued against it and been able to work out a modified arrangement which continued to be mutually beneficial.

Will posting about UFO Hunters, Coast to Coast and other shared subject matter media outlets become disallowed in the future on ATS? I would think and hope not.

We work in a field where sources of information, insiders, witnesses and so on require people with ethics, people who can be trusted and people who can share resources. If I were among the architects of this future crowd sourced media entity, I would be very concerned about damage to the overall credibility and trustworthiness which could result from allowing a "hollywood traditional media" approach to be applied to the project.

I have to admit I would have liked to have seen ATS form it's own content distribution network outside the "old media" system. I just don't see how ATS can avoid the future compromises which will be required, death in media is usually death from a thousand cuts, in reality.

I wish you guys luck and I sincerely hope you're able to make a go of this without having to sacrifice further relationships, ethics or your core contributors / audience. Please understand, I'm not defending the actions take which led to posting bans and so on, maturity and self control are qualities we need more of, not less of.
thanks,
IT

reply to post by Corum


You can join Twitter, tell a mod that you have joined, and then you will be rewarded 5.000 points. That will give you access to R.A.T.S. and your thread.

Hope this helps.

Originally posted by Obliv_au

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord

new cash deal...or.... long term member and ATS supporter....

As has been stated many times... WE were a supporter of Now That's Weird, not the other way around. WE provided free technology, free forum, free moderation, free promotion and asked nothing in return.

it was mutual, you supported him.. .he supported ATS.
aint nothin wrong with that at all, till you sell em out for the almighty greenback!

another loss, combined with JL and a few others.
oh but we got a book to buy now and RW's opinion.
fair deal.... not

[edit on 21/9/08 by Obliv_au]

I tend to agree with your point of view here.

Shortly after I started to become active on ATS I was approached via email by Bill, suggesting that NEXUS and ATS help each other out. I was too busy to nut out details at the time, and indicated that I agreed in principle and that we would talk more.

When I went back to 'talk more' Bill couldn't be bothered to answer any of my three emails on the subject. No reply, nothing. Just silence.

I guess they'd rather chase rockstars than be bothered to reply to someone they approached with a business/promotion offer.

Certainly leaves a bad taste in one's mouth.

Duncan

Originally posted by nexusmagazine
Certainly leaves a bad taste in one's mouth.

Hi Duncan...

On July 5th, I responded to your July 4th email with the following:

Let's let the current posting-style issues cool off before we discuss moving forward with any ideas.

The issues of which I refer began roughly here, and we become somewhat surprised that someone who expressed an interest for a collaborative would participate in such an aggressive and occasionally antagonistic way.

I use to be a fairly big contributor here at ATS a few years ago, but don't come here much anymore because of several reasons:

1. They site has lost it's focus. It seems that the site owners are more interested in cashing in on the website then they are interested in the actual issues themselves. ATS is nothing more than an ad-fest anymore, and now they're cashing in with a possible TV show (that's been "in the works" for how long now?), books and what else?

2. The site is STILL impossible to navigate and has been for many years now. I have to search around just to find the log-in tab or even check my threads. The search function doesn't list current stuff, it only gets updated when the Google search engine updates the site index.

3. They're trying to be the "be all that ends all" of conspiracy sites, although a lot of stuff on the site has nothing to do with conspiracies.

4. Heaven forbid you post your thoughts on something that some moderators don't agree with...then they find a reason to delete or edit your post. Oh, and if your post is too short...well, they blast you for that too.

I did post my concerns a few years ago, but they were abruptly deleted and I was basically told that they don't like "whiners" on ATS. So, I've pretty much stopped contributing since.

This post will probably get deleted too...

reply to post by elderban

It seems that the site owners are more interested in cashing in on the website then they are interested in the actual issues themselves. ATS is nothing more than an ad-fest anymore

The ads are very unobtrusive. But more importantly, advertising is not just a source of revenue. In many cases advertising brings goods and services that are difficult to find in view of those that want or need the products or services being presented. Do you mean to tell me that you only buy goods and services from companies that don’t advertise?

To attack advertising itself is wrong. Almost any product or service that is worth using is in some way involved in advertising. I think that the advertising on this site is very subdued and although I have noticed an increase, I think that it is not harmful or detracting from this sites purpose. However, the front page is starting to look a little ad heavy I do admit.

The site is STILL impossible to navigate and has been for many years now.

Interface design is a wonderful field. Obviously the more options that one includes into the interface the more difficult it can be to provide a clear hierarchy of information and a smooth method of navigation. I would be greatly interesting in doing some illustrator or Photoshop work that may lead to a better interface design for the site. I am sure others might offer suggestions or possible usable examples as well.

They're trying to be the "be all that ends all" of conspiracy sites, although a lot of stuff on the site has nothing to do with conspiracies.

This goes back to the hierarchy of information and interface design issue itself. How do you create a navigable site that includes such varying topics of interest while at the same time preserving a level of uniformity in design?

Heaven forbid you post your thoughts on something that some moderators don't agree with...then they find a reason to delete or edit your post.

I have posted some of the most controversial topics that I can think of on this site that have not been deleted. Yes, I have been warned before for my conduct, but I fully deserved it. Policing a forum is a must and just like regular police work the people who most often violate the rules are the ones who are often the most vocal about them being overbearing in scope, in conflict with justice, or one sided in their enforcement. I don’t think this complaint will win any brownie points for you as enforcement of the rules is a necessity that cannot be avoided.

I was basically told that they don't like "whiners" on ATS.

I hate to be the one to break this news to you, but no one likes a whiner. Did you offer any suggestions for improvement in your post? Or instead, did you simply attack those who are responsible for creating, maintaining, and policing the forum. How would you “realistically” do things any differently? Have you designed an interface that addresses all of the concerns of a varied content web site?

[edit on 21-9-2008 by Hot_Wings]

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord

Originally posted by nexusmagazine
Certainly leaves a bad taste in one's mouth.

Hi Duncan...

On July 5th, I responded to your July 4th email with the following:

Let's let the current posting-style issues cool off before we discuss moving forward with any ideas.

The issues of which I refer began roughly here, and we become somewhat surprised that someone who expressed an interest for a collaborative would participate in such an aggressive and occasionally antagonistic way.

I didn't receive your email, and I stand by my comments on that linked thread above.
After working with Greer and his many colleagues, I was appalled to see the allegations being made about him. Whilst freedom of opinion is granted, I was mostly concerned, as I indicated in my post, to see a moderator and a super-moderator also participating in the juvenile name calling.

And when I called for any evidence, which seems to be so highly cherished on ATS, of Greer's alleged homosexuality, his embezzlement, or his lies - I got referred to the most bizarre radio interview I have ever heard (Paracast). I have been on hundreds of radio interviews, and never in my life have I ever heard such bizarre and unprofessional behaviour.

The sad thing is that I get reprimanded for aggressive defending of Greer, but all the others were allowed to make even more aggressive and defamatory allegations - and not be reprimanded. But I guess that is okay by you, because you are also anti-Greer.

So, in your books I am 'unprofessional' for challenging a school-yard lynching of the reputation and integrity of a person about someone I know, but you don't. I'll wear that one with pride thanks.

You would have known that I did not receive your email, if in fact you ever sent one, because I sent three emails seeking a reply.

The feeling is very mutual about not wanting to be involved I can assure you.

Duncan

reply to post by nexusmagazine


It seems the bone of contention is Greer.

Just because one has interacted personally with Greer over time, doesn’t make him (Greer) what he claims to be – an authority on everything concerning the UFO phenomenon with a dash of spirituality thrown in for effect.

I have nothing against you as I don’t know you from Adam, but the amount of weight you are throwing behind him is intriguing. I had, a couple of years earlier, been a fan of sorts of Greer, but then whenever I mailed him for proof in the form of pics/vids etc, I was greeted with stony silence. No vids, no pics, no proof, no nothing – nix, nada.

So what happened to those Lilliputian aliens 10 to 15 inches tall that he claims to have met? Where are the vids/pics? I’m still waiting and it’s been more than a year! The bottom line is that he has NO proof/evidence for his extraordinary claims! PERIOD! Or have you published any in your magazine? If no, where does he stand on the credibility scale?

And then it’s getting tiring receiving emails from him to contribute to some free energy binge he’s currently on. I can name you some Indian scientists who are on the job, but aren’t begging for greenbacks like he is doing to apparently fund his business class travels to attend some tacky conferences that release nothing but the stench of a huge scam.

Now you tell me, how do you want me to rate him on the credibility scale?


[edit on 22-9-2008 by mikesingh]

Originally posted by nexusmagazine
So, in your books I am 'unprofessional' for challenging a school-yard lynching of the reputation and integrity of a person about someone I know, but you don't. I'll wear that one with pride thanks.

I never offered up the classification of "unprofessional" in your case. My intent was merely to delay any potential collaboration between you and us until after an antagonistic run-in with our staff had cooled off. It really was that simple. I'm sorry if you're looking to apply a more complex situation than that, but it's rather straight forward.


[edit on 22-9-2008 by SkepticOverlord]

reply to post by nexusmagazine

Funny how you don't seem to have noticed that I removed the offensive, childish posts about Dr. Greer the day they were posted and as soon as I was made aware of them.

We don't allow that sort of behavior here no matter who or what the target. The fact that Dr. Greer has destroyed his own credibility in many of our member's minds is not something we have any control over.

I would say that it was completely within Dr. Greer's ability to stop it but he chose not to by continuing to put up images of moths and claiming them to be "Light Being Anchor Ships" or some such madness.

I understand you have personal feelings for the man and I understand your desire to defend him as he is your friend but we don't allow the behavior you displayed any more than we allow the behavior those who were so viciously (and ridiculously) attacking Dr. Greer. There is plenty of evidence out there to suggest the good Dr. has moved on to some different path that is very far removed from his early (and very good) disclosure project work. I think that is the basis of the criticism he now endures.

No matter how you slice it, when someone who once was seen as a voice of reason and intelligent dialog starts presenting images of bugs as alien ships and starts "preaching" a new brand of "spirituality" there is going to be people who are chagrined.

Springer...

Originally posted by ziggystar60
reply to post by Corum

 

You can join Twitter, tell a mod that you have joined, and then you will be rewarded 5.000 points. That will give you access to R.A.T.S. and your thread.

Hope this helps.

Ziggy, have you noticed that ATS have removed my post that you are referring to? Did you see anything off topic or against the T+C's in my post?

The answer is no and I cannot believe the post was deleted. From now on I will copy and save my text and if it is deleted it will by re-posted from where it was deleted UNLESS it is off topic or against t+c's.

ATS, did you move the post because I accused you of damage control? Well you just proved my point. I think I will make a thread in the general conspiracy section later about ATS and it's unofficial ''damage control'' policy, I have many examples of situations being hushed, it is conspiracy material.

As I said in my post that was UNFAIRLY deleted I believe that any post that show ATS in a negative light is swept quickly under the carpet. Damage control in force, just like the governments do, just like all the dirty politicians. After all, you don't want your new business partners seeing the warts and all version of ATS do you? Just the Disneyland version.

I also pointed out in my previously deleted post that my latest thread ''The Conspiracy Against Marijuana'' was actually moved to a place not accessed by most people here, R.A.T.S, as I also said previously the thread was educational and not against any terms and conditions of the site, but you don't like the stigma of a thread regarding marijuana so it seems, so you would rather people remain ignorant of the facts in the thread and do the next best thing to censoring it. Deny ignorance you say? Yeah right.

Could I also ask why no stars are aloud in this section? In fact, don't answer that, I can guess.

ATS, you are becoming transparent, this is not the place I thought it was.

Originally posted by Corum
Ziggy, have you noticed that ATS have removed my post that you are referring to? Did you see anything off topic or against the T+C's in my post?

Apparently one of our Super Moderators did (or Admin), as those are the only people able to delete posts outright. And the only reason to do so would be an extreme T&C violation.

ATS, did you move the post because I accused you of damage control? Well you just proved my point.

Unlikely, as it's clear in reading through this thread there are several posts with a wide range of accusations much more incriminating than that.

I believe that any post that show ATS in a negative light is swept quickly under the carpet.

Have you read this full thread? Really?

I also pointed out in my previously deleted post that my latest thread ''The Conspiracy Against Marijuana'' was actually moved to a place not accessed by most people here, R.A.T.S, as I also said previously the thread was educational and not against any terms and conditions of the site,

Ah... the crux of the matter... someone who would want to force us to alter our rules so as to allow the discussion of "educational" drug use. We've made our stance crystal clear on this, dozens of times. For now, we don't go there.

Could I also ask why no stars are aloud in this section? In fact, don't answer that, I can guess.

None of the posts in any thread in the Board Business & Questions forum are set up for stars or DIGGing. Not just this one, all threads.

Originally posted by SkepticOverlordApparently one of our Super Moderators did (or Admin), as those are the only people able to delete posts outright. And the only reason to do so would be an extreme T&C violation.

I guarantee you 100 percent that the post violated no terms and conditions, I outlined the content of the deleted message in my previous post. I would like to know why it was deleted, it's fair that I am given an explanation.

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord Ah... the crux of the matter... someone who would want to force us to alter our rules so as to allow the discussion of "educational" drug use.

With that statement you have just proven that you did not read the marijuana thread, because if you had then you would not have made that statement. The thread was not about drug use, you are just presuming it was because of the article's title. However, I forgive your presumption as I know you must be a busy man.


Anyhow, good luck with Disneyland and do thank Springer for deleting my signature today, the one I have used for so long and never had anyone have a problem with it, even mods. It obviously has NOTHING to do with my difficult posts in this thread lately and I wouldn't dream of thinking he deleted it to try and get under my skin.

Originally posted by Corum
do thank Springer for deleting my signature today, the one I have used for so long and never had anyone have a problem with it, even mods.

You're most welcome.

I assume you wanted to thank me because I relieved you from being in direct violation of our TAC... The fact no one noticed before is moot.

How hard is it to understand we don't want drugs discussed on our site? There are thousands of sites you can have a row about all the dope in the world, just not this one. Not that complicated is it?

With all the vitriol and demanding nature of your posts may I suggest a brisk walk in the fresh air? It will do wonders for all that pent up angst you seem to be carrying around the net.

As always, I'm glad to be of service, no need to thank me.

Springer...

[edit on 9-22-2008 by Springer]