The Creation of Israel does NOT fulfill Biblical Prophecy

Originally posted by biggie smalls
The creation of the modern state of Israel is not a fulfillment of biblical prophecy. God did not create Israel, the UN did. God is not the UN. Many would argue the UN is the "antichrist" and part of the evil world government.

This is not "god's will", but free will. People created Israel. I'm sorry religious folks, but the second coming of Jesus is not happening anytime soon.

If god did in fact reinstate the Jewish state of Israel, that would be one thing. I for one do not believe the UN speaks for god, so that is simply not the case.

You have a lot of things COMPLETELY misled. Nobody, but you, thinks that Israel was ever mentioned saying it was going to be a fulfillment of biblical prophecy. In one sense it is completely a fulfilling of prophecy, God said in the old Testament that Israel would one day be a great state of Isaacs descendants. So YES IT DID fulfill prophecy because the state of Israel was created.

Now you seem to think that everybody believes the second coming will happen soon, let me give you a hint, NOBODY THINKS THAT, but thank you for the affirmation.

You are very misled by what you said so let me clear it up. The land where Isreal currently is, is known as The Promised Land. God promised it to the Jews and so that is why there is a fight. So I really don't see how such a horrible post made it to the front page of ATS but w/e.

Originally posted by PreTribGuy

Originally posted by justsomeboreddude
reply to post by spacebot

 

If God created modern day Israel you would expect it to be a godly state.

Actually, that isn't true. There is a single prophetic "week" (seven years) left to be fulfilled in Daniel's prophecy of 70 weeks. This is known as "the Great Tribulation". In fact, this "secular Israel" was quite a paradox to Phillip Mauro wrote this (bold emphasis is mine):

And it should be noted in this connection that Zionism, while intensely national in character, does not propose to revive the ancient religion of the Jewish people. This is, to my mind, the strangest feature of Zionism. Every national revival among the Jews in their past history has been a religious revival. That there should ever be a national revival of Judaism which should be absolutely destitute of the religious element, and which should make absolutely no appeal to the religious feelings of the people, would be deemed an a priori impossibility. And yet it is necessary, in order for prophecy to be fulfilled, that a large number of Jews should return to, and should occupy, Palestine in a condition of religious apostasy. This event seems to be now close at hand; and, in spite of all opposition, hatred, spoliation, and persecution, the hated and despised Jews have possessed themselves of such financial resources, and of such commercial influence, in every part of the world, as to prepare all that is needed for the rapid fulfilment of the other steps of the prophetic programme.

From here:
Number of a Man

Quite an interesting read from a book published in 1909?

It seems Phillip Mauro was convinced that Israel would be essentially an "apostate" nation if prophecy WAS to be fulfilled.

It is of no surprise we are failing to understand these meanings. Since God as perceived by us, that He posses not many but all talents, everything that was or is or going to be, he might as well be a Programmer.
Why would He create a code that for its successful execution would be of utmost significance that it will be unraveled only in perfect timing, resonating harmony in the otherwise chaotic human events, and that this timing and harmony's true meaning and nature is only available for Him to understand?

What I perceive the solution of this paradox you quoted to be:

Christianity at large abandons Christian religion through a chain of events, meticulously planned or otherwise, and the former followers of Judaism transvert to Christians, not only being Christians but pursuing it with zeal even when circumstances would demand deprivation of our major modern day luxuries like living in the desert.

However, don't ask how this idea got to me.

[edit on 30-4-2008 by spacebot]

reply to post by spacebot


The Mauro stuff is an interesting way of looking at things. The Christian God is so complex in how he accomplishes his goals. It is hard look at prophecy and interpret how it is really going to play out in real life. Just like when Jesus came as the Messiah and they expected the Messiah to be like David. They expected him to restore their might with force but God had a totally different plan of conquering with love and personal sacrifice.


[edit on 30-4-2008 by justsomeboreddude]

reply to post by abelievingskeptic


Well first off you said, "There is a lot of info out there on how our Federal Reserve (which resides in washington d.c.)". To my knowledge there are 12 Federal Reserves and none of them are in Washington DC.

My point before about your talking about British "Nazis" (your term) was that before any of that pablum existed there was the Bible that foretold about Israel coming together and therefore it doesn't truly matter who you think got Israel together, whether it be Rothschild or whatever. The point remains that it exists exactly as the Bible foretold and THAT is bibical prophesy that has come true.

I truly don't understand what all this talk is about and what the problem in understanding this is. It was foretold and it happened. Period. Even if there is no God and he had nothing to do with it the Bible still foretold it correctly. That is all I am saying and all I'm going to say. I don't know how else to explain it to you.

Just because I am a believer has nothing to do with it. If the Koran foretold it I would be agreeing with that also.

I'm going back to UFO's and 911 talk. I love to discuss religion, but I hate it when it heats up. Good luck to you all on this topic.

reply to post by spacebot

Christianity at large abandons Christian religion

It is prophesied and is already here (parentheses mine):
2 Thess. 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away (apostasy...defection from the faith once delivered unto the Saints.) first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Proof? Even 50 years ago, the VERY IDEA of a woman "pastor" would have been "laughed at" in most churches.

Originally posted by biggie smalls

See that's the problem right there. God is not a "he". You got the whole gender issue wrong. What happened to the feminine side of god, is that not represented these days?

I call God Him or he because I believe Jesus referred to him as the father and as the father is head of the Godhead and family he is head of the Church. As for gender? What the hell would gender have to do with it.

Language neither him or her defines a God by gender for where he is Gender is not needed there is no use for God to have reproductive parts and has nothing to do with sexism so get it out of your head it is unequivocally wrong to suggest it and I resent the implication,

As for Israel, when was the last time you were there big? When?

I have been there and almost all the "stuff" you keep pontificating as fact is NOT fact. Go there yourself then tell me what it is. Frankly it doesn't matter whether I agree with Israel or not like many things I don't agree with if I were a god I guess I could say as you seem to suggest we would do a better job. I don't think so!

Yes If I am doing Gods will and if WE are doing Gods will and WE think Gods will is to make Israel a nation then ya know what WE just did?


Gods Will thats what and Gods will be done. Big instead of ranting about your superior understanding of what God is about to all of us little people who you obviously think are too stupid to know an iota of him, it sounds to me like your argument isn't with us then, it is with God,

So take it up with him.

tell him who ya are

Im sure he'll be

impressed

- Con




[edit on 1-5-2008 by Conspiriology]

reply to post by Alienmojo

Well first off you said, "There is a lot of info out there on how our Federal Reserve (which resides in washington d.c.)". To my knowledge there are 12 Federal Reserves and none of them are in Washington DC.

the board of governors reside in D.C.

My point before about your talking about British "Nazis" (your term) was that before any of that pablum existed there was the Bible that foretold about Israel coming together and therefore it doesn't truly matter who you think got Israel together, whether it be Rothschild or whatever. The point remains that it exists exactly as the Bible foretold and THAT is bibical prophesy that has come true.

I don't think you are understanding what prophecy is. There are specifics. And there are reasons why those specifics are mentioned. From my understanding of the prophecy, the Messiah is supposed to return the semitic jews (original twelve tribes) back to Israel. If that does not happen then the prophecy is not fulfilled. Its not just about the fact that most jews live in Israel now.

I truly don't understand what all this talk is about and what the problem in understanding this is.

Well I can't apologize for you not understanding about "all the talk," but I can apologize because I may not be articulating it correctly. There are tons of people on ATS that understand it waaaay better than me. Maybe they can describe it better in a way that you can comprehend (no offense intended)...you should try to read up more about it. You may be able to find the answers yourself. Wikipedia has it all right there for you to read

It was foretold and it happened. Period. Even if there is no God and he had nothing to do with it the Bible still foretold it correctly. That is all I am saying and all I'm going to say. I don't know how else to explain it to you.

ya theres really no point in trying to argue that. it seems you are satisfied with your understanding of it so i wont go on, but good luck with that frame of mind...


edit to fix quotes

[edit on 1-5-2008 by abelievingskeptic]

reply to post by biggie smalls



its for sure that the nation that took the name Israel
was not a product of Divine intervention n the affairs of men.


Actually all those ersaz Israel zealots over the decades
knew fullwell that they were trying to create a Zionist State
where all the diaspora Jews could find refuge....

so, by all logical thinking, the Jewish State should have named itself
Judah
Judah, was the Kingdom led by Solomon, that the Jews of 1000BCE
created because the Jews in the areas surrounding Jerusalem, didn't want to associate with the former northern Kingdom named Israel.
Israel, the northen Kingdom never got back together after the Assyrian & then the Babylonian captivities....
Israel/Northern Kingdom became lost to history and the scriptures refer them as the 'Lost-Ten-Tribes'

So, the cabal of ersatz israel & zionists, pulled 'Israel' out of scripture so as to both play on sympathy of the world and to psyop all the goyim nations by playing the role of a regathering Israel rather than the actuality of a regathering of the Jewish Tribe alone.
In my mind, It's another case of stealing a birthright all over again...
the name 'Israel' was meant for the lost-10-tribes being reunited with the Jews & the Levite Priests...not for a regathering of zionists.


one can conjecture that their G-D has his hand in this affair,
but cycnical me says that a cabal of conivving men with aspirations
devised maschinations and deceptions to acquire a UN sanctioned nation state for mortal-carnal-worldly purposes......

thanks for the OP biggie



see: www.zionism-israel.com...
see where the tribes of Judah & tribe of Benjamin divided Jerusalem.
now this was immediately after conquering the Canaanites...
later on came the division of the two kingdoms the Northern one of Israel
and the southern one of Judah...
later dissolved/fractionalized (balkanized in modern terms) into a smaller portion referred to as judea by the Romans


[edit on 1-5-2008 by St Udio]

reply to post by St Udio


thanks Stu dio for posting that intruiging info. It helps tremendously to clear some of my own thoughts and clear the positions held by the Israeli government whom are not inspired by God or fulfilling the prophecy.

if you don't mind me asking, what are your sources?
thanks in advance.

reply to post by abelievingskeptic

There was a zionist movement even before WWI...and guess where Zion was supposed to be located? In Africa! Not Jerusalem at all. Because these were peaceful, good Jews who understood the implications of stealing land from another people who rightfully lived there

OK, so if people who always considered that X, where people A live now, is they homeland however will go to Y where people B live - it is a good solution?
The reason that Uganda was considered was the fact that Palestine was then Turkish, and sultan did not agree to large Jewish autonomy, not to mention an independent country.

And the Balfour act was not even followed properly! The control was supposed to remain in the hands of the Arabs and Palestinians

Control of the area was British (part of British empire). Before that Turkish (part of Turkish empire) with brief Egyptian periods. Before that Mamluks (also Egypt, part of Mamluks realm). Before that crusaders .Before that it was a part of different Arab caliphates (never independent). Before that part of Byzantine empire. Before that Rome, before that Jewish. When it was ruled as an independent entity by Arabs, not to mention Palestinians?
And Balfour declaration(1917) in reality stated:

His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country".

All power and praise be to the one true God and creator of that that is; in the name of my Lord Jesus Christ. Let it be so.

Dear George
I know these words will most likely never reach you. I have no reason to believe that you would even bother to read them if they do. But this is what I am inspired to tell you according to my heart.

We are hear according to an agenda. We have been manipulated from the Mothers own. Those who have done so do not care for this Mother.

The mother is that that is.
We are that that is. And
The manipulators are that that is.
After the harvest the Mother will survive.
After the harvest some of us will be here.
But the Mother has been raped by the manipulation.
We must never take the path taken by the manipulators.

May the Creator bless the Mother for ever.
Look inside your heart. If this is the truth you will know.

We have chosen the name manipulators to separate the creator from those who are above us and that did not create.

The mother loves us and now is the time She has chosen to tell us this truth. Religion has been used as a tool to manipulate Humankind. The wars men fight are according to the Agenda. We are manipulated. When we are a tool> We are not that that is!
God help us,
Our job is to fill the land fills with the best materials we can. The greater the war the better the materials. May God forgive Us. Israel Is not GOD. The creator is not there. But Mankind on earth will be led to destruction according to the agenda!

Modern media has powers
beware what is shown.
It can manipulate even your dreams.
When was the last time you heard an argument against subliminal--- any thing???
Its still there\
It's still real ...but we shall not speak of it.
God Help us.
The Agenda will attach me and I will die.
I will speak theses words before I die.


God is not in Israel.
Israel is a speck of dust.
My lord Jesus agrees with me.
God Bless my Lord!!!

Some of the Mothers children will be taken from this place.
In the Bowels of those who are taken lies the essence of the Mother.
Those who Manipulate are concerned with our colon and intestines.
We hold truth that they can not make without us and the Mother.
They cannot live without this truth. From this truth another livable place on another world can be made. As I said they are that that is. They are life and have value. In fact they have changed the children of the Mother for many cycles. Cycles of the galaxy. The Earth is but one of many Gardens that contain children of men.
The manipulators are not God but they are lords and certain obligations exist. We have been protected from distractions by them. But part of a Coven between them and us is our ability to stop the rotation of the earth.

They have kept us busy with "religions and wars" to prevent us from fulfilling or becoming strong enough to protect the Mother in our own right. The truth is we have been much more powerful than them for a long time because we hold the truth of the Mother within us.

We are being used. But we have an obligation. The Law is not hidden from us. But much of our power has been. We have been manipulated much as we have manipulated Dogs and Bees. Goddess and God help Us all to be ready for the future and help the Manipulators to be just and to act according to the truth.

All power and praise be to the one true GOD and creator of the universe. Blessed be the Mother and Father and the Child.
We are that that is.
We are the bearers of the light.
Every moment is sacred and so to is every choice we make.
You are that that is.
I am that that is.
We can decide that that will be.

Blessed be.
SRA Charles F. Tiberend
Homeless VET
BAFB AR...

When was the last time you heard an argument against subliminal-

(bold emphasis mine)

2 Cor 10:5 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds
5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God:
Hebrews 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

[edit on 2-5-2008 by PreTribGuy]

Originally posted by abelievingskeptic

if you don't mind me asking, what are your sources?
thanks in advance.

my 'sources' are the millions of pages written over the millenia....

i 'filter' what i want/need/desire out of that mishmash,
but....
the critical edge - is that you discard all the unwanted fat & fluff.

A lot of what you believe to be real & factual are only subjective reality...
slanted towards a end-result which suits their purpose.


Read the various 'sources' with a critical mind, instead of a programmed mind, and a refreshing 'clarity' will present itself

Originally posted by biggie smalls
The creation of the modern state of Israel is not a fulfillment of biblical prophecy. God did not create Israel, the UN did. God is not the UN. Many would argue the UN is the "antichrist" and part of the evil world government.

This is not "god's will", but free will. People created Israel. I'm sorry religious folks, but the second coming of Jesus is not happening anytime soon.

If god did in fact reinstate the Jewish state of Israel, that would be one thing. I for one do not believe the UN speaks for god, so that is simply not the case.

Many bible scholars and wanna be prophets would argue that the creation of Israel was indeed a perfect fulfillment of a passage in Daniel. And why wouldn't the UN fulfill God's work? A modern times Medo-Persia. Cyrus was elevated into the messiah when he let the Jews go home from Babylon and allowing for the Temple to be rebuilt. I wouldn't argue if the UN is the work of the Antichrist, it's just plain silly. But what one could still discuss is whether or not the creation of Israel without a Temple would fulfill the prophecy. Technically the Jews are still in Diasporah, without a Temple, and there are only two tribes present in Israel today, most of them former proselytes from Russia. Technically they should only control certain areas around Jerusalem together with Jerusalem itself, using the borders set by God in the Torah.

reply to post by pavlovsdog

Your argument made me question my faith, so I'm putting you on ignore. ~Bigwhammy

Your obsession with me to the point of a out right lie in a your signature reveals you still smart form the spanking I gave you after you claimed Alesiter Crowley's black magic was compatible with the teachings of Jesus. What a joke to argue that.

Sorry you have never made me question my faith once. I found you to be patently dishonest - so not worth debating. Your signature is a prime example of your dishonesty. I never said that. You are a liar.

The Creation of Israel does NOT fulfill Biblical Prophecy

Of course it does. Many others have pointed out the Bible does not say how it will be fulfilled but I'm here to say it actually does, in a sense. They are most definitely correct in that the Bible never explicitly states how (supernaturally, politically, diplomatically, etc.), but we are given a very specific chain of events that would lead up to the rebirth of Israel as a nation.

I already explained this thoroughly along with Biblical support in verses in another thread but here is a quick run down:

1). The Jews would SLOWLY return to the land before the official rebirth. This began happening in 1897 and again with the Balfour Declaration of 1917.

2). The Nation of Israel would be reborn in one day. This happened May 15, 1948. Furthermore, this was prophesied to the day. If you want details on this, I explain it: HERE.

3). Israel would immediately be surrounded by enemies. Unlike the peaceful return after the Babylonian captivity, the end times return was prophesied to happen amid war and violence. It's no secret the mess the Middle East is in.

4). The exact names of the countries that would be an enemy to Israel are mentioned in Ezekiel. Interestingly enough, these countries form the current coalition of Muslim countries allied with Russia, as prophesied.

5). Jerusalem would be regained. This happened in 1967.

6). Israel would be a united country. In OT times, Israel was divided into two sovereign states: Israel and Judea. Yet, at the end time regathering, we are told they would be a unified country. This is what happened.

7). There would be no king over Israel. Of course this doesn't sound unusual to us today but when this prophecy was written, a government that was not structured around a monarchy was pretty much unheard of.

8). After the regathering there would be attempts to divide the land. If you are keeping up with the Israel-Palestine peace talks, you already know the situation.

So, when someone tells me the rebirth of Israel does not fulfill prophecy I am compelled to ask, in what alternate reality?

Then there is only one thing left, namely to rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem to bring Israel out of Diasporah. It is prophecied that it will be rebuilt by gentile workers.

You are right that they do want to rebuild the temple of course there is golden dome problem, no ark of covenant to go in temple, however I have read all plans and materials exist including flawless animals to sacrifice...According to show I saw last week..the temple could be built in about a year and a half.

Keep in mind the temple is not a prerequisite for the rapture

The dome could still stand in the outer courtyard, no problem with that. The outer courtyard is given to the gentiles. As for the Ark of Covenant, it has been rebuilt many times apparently, no need for the original one. It will contain a set of stones with the ten commandments inscribed and the book of the Law where all the 613 commandments and laws are written. The box isn't magic, neither is any of the things inside, it is when these things are gathered that the Glory of God can be seen over the cherubim.

A red cow is needed to cleanse the Temple and the people. Some years ago there was one born inside of Israel, which was seen as a sign the Temple would be rebuilt. However there were some spots on the cow which made the wise argue whether or not it could be used in such a ritual. But there is no mention that the cow must be of Israeli origin, it could just as well be provided from anywhere in the world. Another sign of the Temple being rebuilt was some water coming out from under the mount a couple of years ago. But the stream wasn't anywhere near the prophecied stream.

[edit on 6/5/2008 by Neo Christian Mystic]

Neo,
Yes, I believe you are correct.. The show I saw said they will have spotless calf soon