Is it Really that Bad?

just wait until the population exceeds 8 billion... in just a few years, and then 11 billion just a few years after... its inevitable, we have to go through hard times before we can enter the next era

My guess is that things are harder on the middle class right now. If you are poor than gas prices are your big problem. Health care is still not insane. I pay 222 a month for a huge policy through a major provider. My house and truck bills are fixed, and there is nothing else really i have out there. I had kids so early that by by mid 30s they are grown. So damn...I would say no for me. That and I sold my boat and bike back in 2001 before Y2K lol and started buying gold. That pretty much left me good in these times. Thank God.

I'm only 31 yrs young I was born in 1977, I tell you this because because I don't believe in profiling so don't bother clickin' on my name. We were raised to respec things a little different in my part of Texas my dad worked at refinery so I was lucky enough to live in a 3 bedroom house during the 80's. But my relatives lived on an 8 acre homestead where they still took bath's in a washtub. Having a bathroom in your house was considered gross. You don't crap where you sleep is what they used to say. Anyway, long story short!


During the hurricane's Katrina and Rita people went nuts. The mere loss of power or delay at the gas station resulted in pure animalistic panic. The desparity level some of these people displayed for seemingly meaningless reasons was awe inspiring. People who knew how to swim were perched on mounds of dirt, surrounded by ankle deep, currentless water waiting for the govt. to come save them, It was disgusting. When did it become everyone's problem to provide insurance to people who live in stupid places. I must have missed something somewhere.

The rumor goin' around at the time, and it still floats around this place was george bush caused the hurricanes. The govt. then blew up levees to flood everything

You are not looking at the CONTEXT.

30 years ago, the USA and world was a different place. Gasoline was affordable and jobs weren't outsourced in today's scale. And people didn't consume the way they consume today. So trying to compare two different eras is pointless in my opinion.

And it's not because you can manage your economic situation that others aren't doing things right.

Originally posted by TheOracle
You are not looking at the CONTEXT.

30 years ago, the USA and world was a different place. Gasoline was affordable and jobs weren't outsourced in today's scale. And people didn't consume the way they consume today. So trying to compare two different eras is pointless in my opinion.

And it's not because you can manage your economic situation that others aren't doing things right.

Hey nice post....and damn your girl is gorgeous:
One cant help but think that this world is doomed! In 1947 the Dooms Day Clock was set at just 7 minutes from midnight representing how close the world was to total destruction. Now-a-days one can't help but look at that clock with only seconds til midnight, or, just a push button away. Food shortages, Genocides, Envy, Hate, Greed, and power are stronger then they have ever been throughout the world. If you really want to go deep you can look at the natural disasters, disease, and global climate changes (notice I didn't say warming cuz that's a farce) happening throughout.

Just where I live there have been hudreds of small earth quakes and the sme thing has happened in Reno. Small earth quakes barely registerable are happening all throughout the west coast; something that the science world has never seen before.

We are in for some major changes in the U.S., and the world, throughout the next ten years. I just hope people become aware and prepare for what's to come.

THE COUNTRY/ECONOMY IS NOT ALRIGHT.

The country is not ok, it just hasn't caught up to the .. "upper middle class" yet. The crunch is well underway on the lower class, lower-middle, and middle classes being the newest addition (me). You are next.

My middle class family .. considered "upper middle" by some, with nearly a $200,000 total yearly combined income (before taxes or anything), is in pretty bad straits. We were one month, one bill away from having our house Foreclosed on, had to borrow $3,000 from sister's boyfriend. My Mother's Husband, a Government employee, an Aerospace Engineer, works everyday. My Mother, a Registered Nurse Supervisor of all Nurses in her Department, works everyday. They are both in their mid 50s, my Mother has multiple back injuries, and no retirement. It was taken (ie: pick, workers comp or retirement money, cant have both?) from her because she had to get Worker's Compensation for a pro-longed period of time when she last had hurt her back a few years ago in a car accident. We are barely getting by. Each month is a struggle to pay all the bills, and theres always 1 or 2 that have to be held until next paycheck. Been getting intermittent threats of service denials such as water and electricity 'if you dont pay X amount by X date'.

I read memos that were copied, unknown to the Banker, who was supposedly my Mom's big adviser, always giving her advice how to stay afloat with her Mortgage and all. He would always act like he cared, he had her duped .. she thought he was looking out for her. He'd lie and say, "im not going to let them foreclose you without them going through me first" and yada yada, and "ill explain to them your plight" etc etc. So these memos .. from him to my Mom's Attorney, and back to him from the Attorney, were deplorable. This guy was saying things like "one more month and im going to get them foreclosed, get ready to sell the property", and things like this. There were worse things. . outright lies made by him about my Mom being irresponsible, to make the case to not work with her and maybe just Foreclose the property. This is the same guy who'd convinced my mom he was solely looking out for her and doing all these things on their end for her, while he was lying through his teeth, actively TRYING to get a family of 6 kicked out of their own home!

I know you're going to say: Welcome to Capitalism, welcome to the world of Banks and Bankers. But I am going to say in return that I know well of Capitalism's ills, that it causes and promotes greed, it causes and promotes tension, and competition to the point of outright conflict and hatred, between your fellow man, in your own country, just to provide for your family. And if you provide for yours by working harder than the next guy, his family goes hungry. Thats Capitalism. Now Banks and Bankers.. I knew 99% are crooked, I warned her not to trust him to begin with. But she learned her lesson. Sometimes I, at age 25, feel like the parent teaching the lessons to my Mother, the roles of caring really do reverse.. parents care for you as a child, and then you care for your parents as they get old and needy.

[edit on 4/26/2008 by runetang]

Ok I didnt want to have to do this but Im going to have to take some time and spell it out so the people understand something about this economy and history.
First off it is human nature to think everything is "ok" if the problem is not affecting you. The quote "my neighbor losing their house its a recession and me losing my house its a depression" so I understand why these people are coming on here and saying everything is alright because as of yet they are not directly affected by the problems that face our country today. With that being said Im going to go into why things are not Ok.

1.In the past we had industrial jobs and customer service jobs on mass which were typical "middle class" type jobs. Now all of those jobs are in India and China. My wife who works at a large brokerage firm just had her whole dept shipped over to India and these were jobs that payed 40 to 50k a year. This is just one of many examples of jobs that paid good money that was shipped over seas.

2.Right now our government is spending money like it has never EVER dont before. The debt we are racking up is IMMENSE and for those who dont understand money and where it comes from trust me when I tell you that DOES affect the economy. It adds to inflation big time and it gives our children and grandchildren a bill that they will have to pay. We can argue all day whether we should raise taxes or lower taxes the fact is the current system of lowering taxes but the fact is our debt is raising and raising fast.




3.Wages have gone no where in 15 years and if you throw inflation in there we have actually lost money. I dont know about you guys but my wages havent been keeping up with the rising costs of gas, food, and everything else. Hell we havent raised minimum wages since the early 90s and that kind of spread without a raise hasnt been done since government started regulating minimum wage but I promise you the top 3% has seen there wages go up..in fact its gone up 58% in the past 15 years.

4.Current and looming wars are never good for a country and therefore falls under my everything is NOT alright column. Wars cost a lot of lives and money and as long as this threat still hangs over us it does affect peoples thought on the status of our union.

6.The credit crunch or financial crisis is like one we have not seen since the depression and that is a fact and rightfully so these banks are holding on to a lot of worthless paper that far exceeds the balance sheets of a lot of these companies hence all the emergency lending an bailouts and cash infusions just to keep these guys in business. The fact is this paper has been made worthless because of monetary policy and not keeping money in the working class hands. Because of all the pay and inflation issues listed above and the final straw was when the banks decided oh we are not going to lend anymore good luck and have a nice day.

7.This issue has not become full blown but look to it to become within the next 6 months and that is the food shortages. Now I know all of you guys will say it can never happen to us but the fact is it can and it will whether its by an actual shortage of food or whether it is shortage of food via the high prices. I mean if people cannot afford food then there might as well be a shortage.


I understand that not everyone is affected by these issues but it does not mean that it will not spread further and affect you. You guys who say well I have a 65k a year job and all my bills are paid. I have news for you if we continue down this path you will not have your job long and just because you have your house and cars paid off does not mean you dont have bills...you have a little thing called taxes and insurance and food and gas and in previous threads Ive come to the conclusion that just the necessities will cost you 15k a year. Without a job that is not good.

On a final not I agree with the OP in the fact that we as Americans have come to complacent and to reliant on big bank big ag big oil and big corp I cannot argue there and that really IS part of the reason we as Americans are suffering today. An America that is not reliant and enslaved to debt could stand up and say you know what Big oil all us Americans are staying home and not going to work until you fix these gas prices..the problem is 90% of Americans are in debt and have bills to pay so not going to work is not an option. I have really learned a lesson in this whole situation to be much more conservative and will never forget this and yes I am planting a garden this year and I have already bought 2 extremely fuel efficient cars. Im in the midst of finding my land in the middle of no where and will not be a tool of big business or the government. But to say that everything is fine out there is very naive and close minded.

[edit on 26-4-2008 by mybigunit]

reply to post by burdman30ott6


I don't know what to tell you sparky, but I asked this very same question to my folks last week when they were in town visiting me and they both said unequivocally that the country has never been in worse shape than it is now. You haven't even seen the worst of the worst yet which will hit us around this time next year if things continue at their present course. I know it's deceiving now, but give it another 12 months at present course and we will be in a full blown depression.

The mule of this situation (for those of you who are Aasimov fans) is the presidential election in November. The election has the potential to spark an economic prosperity and a collective sigh that the destructive and divisive Bush years are over. The election is a huge variable that I just can't predict. This country is FUBAR though unless drastic changes are made within the next year and that conclusion is not me just being paranoid. Has the country seen worse times? Yeah, no doubt. Has the country ever had the imminent potential to see worse financial, cultural, and social destruction than we do now? I don't think so, and neither do my parents or their parents. Think on that.

Well,not to be offensive,but you look at things very superficially.

What do you think is going to happen when these young people coming up,expecting to live like little emperors,like most have for the past 30 odd years,find out they can't get what they need to be "just comfortable and secure",in their living.....

In reality,there is no security of any kind,anywhere at all,no matter who you are or where you live.

Ronnie Raegan got it half right when he said some BS about trickle down economics....In reality we are experiencing "trickle down de-regulation",even poor people do not worry about things,they just go get a loan to buy what they "want".

What ever happened to the concept of living within one's means ?,what ever happened to honor and morality ?.

The real problem with america is that most americans do not know what freedom is.In the beginning,the founders of this country lost everything to wrench themselves free of Britain's grip,they were free afterward,to bust their arses to survive,by co-operating with one another in a somewhat closed society and nation,to be free to survive on natures terms,and moral terms.

We have nearly destroyed nature,which is what everything needs to survive ,and we have nearly destroyed this society,we have allowed this through our own laziness.

Consumerism and capitalism have wreaked havoc on the world for too long,the jig is nearly up,and if you can't see it,you are nearly blind.I would say completely blind,but your opening post proves you are semi-consciuous of the situation at hand.

Open your eyes the rest of the way.

A naturally occurring balance is going to be achieved soon,it has nothing to do with the "New World Order",it has to do with selfishness and stupidity,and lack of appreciation for what we had before,what was here the whole time.

The only thing we need is life,and the motivation to go out and get what we need to support our life and that of our families,within a moral framework of some sort.

We do not need more laws,we do not need more resources.

It isn't about luxury,it is about survival,if you can't get what you need to survive on your own,you will not thrive.

We need to live within our means as a race,as a species,or we will destroy ourselves.

He who leads by example walks alone.

Mankind is a social animal.

reply to post by mybigunit



The chart is bogus. Be they Democrat or Republican all administrations spend.

The Clinton's balanced nothing it was all smoke and mirrors.

Remember this the government produces nothing, it is the largest consumer in the world. It creates nothing and needs tax dollars to survive, when the government gets low on cash because of spending they raise taxes. It's very simple.

reply to post by Realtruth


Actually we are Dependant on foreign help to sustain our nation from our wars to even pay the salaries of those working in Washington.

That is how bad we are right now.

Like I posted before we are a bankrupt superpower

[edit on 26-4-2008 by marg6043]

reply to post by chiponbothshoulders

...even poor people do not worry about things,they just go get a loan to buy what they "want".

That's a load of horse-pucky there. Poor people can't get loans. And a lot of poor people were once middle-class but went bankrupt taking out loans trying to stay afloat.

I suppose that heat and electricity would fit into your "wants" column, when people are paying their utitlity bills with their credit cards, or using those cards to fix their car and put gas in it so they can get to their three jobs.

These cyclic good and bad periods, I liken to the blowing up of a balloon.
These last few decades have all been the same balloon. In the past, as the economy worsened. There were some built-in protections. Some of these helped a little. For example since 1913 we've allowed the Fed, to tweak our economy to adjust it into submission. Through artificial lowering of interest rates. In non-banking areas, we've searched for trade agreements with other nations.

Combined with these international trade agreements (or even disagreements), especially with oil and other commodities, there was a modicum of control..
The OPEC'ers have always enjoyed flexing their crude muscles, just to make us a little nervous. Look at Venezuela these days.



So, as the balloon became filled with air, and the skin tightened, became more transparent. There have been measures in place to "let a little of the air out". We were saved temporarily.

Then it it was back to business. Forgetting the recent past.
I distinctly remember in High-school, We were taught that a depression could NOT happnen again. The reason? We were told that a depression could not happen again because of Credit cards...!!! We were told that because goods and services could be purchased on "time". It would roughen out the edges of a full fledged depression. Sound familiar? Thats what our government has been doing for decades. Borrowing.


But now, this balloon, It's full of air again. Who is going to let the air out this time? The Fed tries to overprint money, tries to artificially reduce interest rates. The Last few administrations run around the world spending borrowed money play World Police. We ship out jobs to other countries, And oil is skyrocketing. But this time, even with an adjustment for inflation, fuel has become more than your average household expenditure.

The balloon will not be deflated this time. Someone will stick a pin in it.
I wonder who's grinning, and holding that pin?

I asked the same question on a previous thread concerning this issue. However, I personally do not see it as bad as other do at this moment in time. I was born broke, raised broke and currently am broke. LOL... It is the current view of what is going on in the world that will reflect how you preceive the current global crunch. Let put some perspective on it.

Their are more homes being built than ever before, therefore, more people are buying them. The houses at the start where over priced because there was such a shortage. Therefore, people where buying houses that where well over their means. Therefore, at some stage, that was going to start hurting them meaning they wouldnot be able to meet their repayment, which result in large scale losses for the banks, this is turn leads to a fear within the market for the bank in their lending policy. The market now has to many house sitting waiting to be sold, from new build to old houses. The market is flooded with them. No one is lending, therefore there is going tio be a major crisis in the market.

The credit crunch can be related to the above, to much bad debt. People being loaned money to pay other debts, and they cannot afford it. If you ask me, the banks inflicted it onto themselves. It was always going to happen. It can and will be recovered. Don't ask me how but it will.

With regards to the issues concerning food, I have not seen the effects of this. My local supermarket that i use (ASDA) has still got its shelfs full and food at good prices. No major changes in so far as I an see. However, that is not to say that it is not happening in other parts of the world. However, I personally feel that is down to shops taking the piss out of people with false ideas of food running out. I bet when the shelf clears of a lot of products, it does not take long for them to re-fill it.

With regards to the issues on fuel, yeah there is a problem there. The price is to high. Is there a shortage, you and I will never know that. We can only go on the word of the people who supplie it, and lets face it they stand to make the most out of it with their crazy prices. Maybe thats why it is seen as being where the money is to be made. After all, for there to be a major shortage, how in the hell are these firms posting profits in their 10s of billions? Maybe through over priceing? Do you never find it strange how there is a short age everytime war is being talked abiut, the more they charge for feul, the more the government(s) get in taxs.

I really think it is down to the standard of living that you have laid down for yourselves. At the end of the end of the day, if you have lived a life above your means and lived it on credit, well now that the banks aren't lending, it was always going to hurt. If, like me, you lived on what ya had, then there is no real effect.

I may be well of mark with the above, but it is my opinon and I feel as valid as any.

Rambel over.

reply to post by spacedoubt


Man o man. I wish I could give you another star for that post!

Nice.

reply to post by wow23

It can and will be recovered. Don't ask me how but it will.

That is intolerably naive. You must watch this video...

MONEY AS DEBT

I bet when the shelf clears of a lot of products, it does not take long for them to re-fill it.

I have not seen shortages at supermarkets, yet, but it's coming. When you see food pantries and soup kitchens shutting down for lack of goods, the markets are next.

With regards to the issues on fuel, yeah there is a problem there. The price is to high.

If you agree that there is a problem with fuel prices, then you have to acknowledge that there is a problem with the food supply. The high cost of fuel is driving up food prices to the point where people can no longer afford to eat, just as the food pantries are shutting down. Furthermore, food prices are being driven up be the lack of grain resources that have been directed toward our fuel needs.

If this wasn't so said I'd laugh.

There is no oil crisis.

There is no food/rice crisis.

There is no recession.

There is manipulation.

There is power hanger.

There is exploitation.

There will be war, famine, death and people lives destroyed.

Yes, being Portuguese/European make me feel sick about this Bush administration.

We are no good either because Europe is going the wrong way.

reply to post by jackinthebox

I gave him a star for you Jack.

No worries.....he's starred again.

Uh oh.....now I need a star to give him from me.

obviously its not that bad. i know there are a lot of people on this site that disagree with that, but my question is, if it is really that bad, how are you on the internet to post in the first place? if i was struggling, i would be cancelling the internet, cable, phone, etc to save money.

And unemployment is not that bad right now. We are at around 5.1% last time I looked. Well guess what, several years ago, 2002 timeframe i believe the unemployment rate was in the 6% area. Where was all the complaining back then? The unemployment rate during the Bush era and under the clinton era are pretty much exactly the same.

As for heating oil being 600/mo, man thats expensive. Everything in my house is electric, no gas or anything, and to heat/cool my house, cook food etc, my bill is only around 120/mo. now i live in texas so heating is not a problem in the winter months so that saves me but with temp in the 100's it takes alot to cool down a house and even then ive never had a bill over 200.

food wise, my wife and i spend about 130.00 a month on food. go to the grocery store once a month and buy everything we need. granted we only eat 2 meals a day ( no time for breakfast ). I will say that i have seen the price go up though as we used to spend about 110 to 120/mo.

it seems that lots of these problems everyone is talking about are regional. where i live, ive never seen a protest, the housing market is better then most areas, jobs are plentiful, and no one i know has been laid off. so i guess we all need to keep that in mind when discussing this topic.

reply to post by burdman30ott6


Is it really that bad? Burdman I have to ask you, did both your parents work back then to raise the family? I was born in 1963 and my Mom only worked for the fun of it. Things were tight, very tight, but I feel things are worse now, but on a different level than the 70's and 80's.

Now you have to have a double income just to make it. Kids have to live with other kids to be able to afford rent (my kids are an example. Four of them live together so they can make rent). No gas lines of yet, but gas has more than doubled.

I'm so glad you brought up the threat of nuclear war. Oh my, I was so frightened as a child. While Reagan was in office the Soviets had their fingers on the button because they were positive that we were going to start a war.

Today the threat is still here, but mostly from terrorists. Although I believe that China is still a big threat to us now and if the Russians join them it could be real bad. Now that Clinton ended the Presidential order of "Fire on Warning" the threat is even worse. Now we can't retaliate until an actual detonation occurs on our soil which speaks FIRST STRIKE all over it to me.

Are things worse? Over all? Probably not. Certainly nothing like the 30's were for my old man, but the times are still very hard on other levels as I have said.