States move to ban hallucinogen salvia

Originally posted by SteveR

Originally posted by biggie smalls
Pharmaceuticals, tobacco, and alcohol are all far more dangerous than salvia, heroin, coc aine, and cannabis COMBINED.

Heroin and coc aine included? I'm speechless at the utter stupidity of this one, buddy.

Stevie,

Alcohol is the most dangerous drug on this planet. More people have died consuming it than any other drug.

100,000 alcohol related deaths per year

How can alcohol be blamed for 100,000 deaths each year?
5% of all deaths from diseases of the circulatory system are attributed to alcohol.
15% of all deaths from diseases of the respiratory system are attributed to alcohol.
30% of all deaths from accidents caused by fire and flames are attributed to alcohol.
30% of all accidental drownings are attributed to alcohol.
30% of all suicides are attributed to alcohol.
40% of all deaths due to accidental falls are attributed to alcohol.
45% of all deaths in automobile accidents are attributed to alcohol.
60% of all homicides are attributed to alcohol.

(Sources: NIDA Report, the Scientific American and Addiction Research Foundation of Ontario.) Also see Alcohol Consumption and Mortality, Alcohol poisoning deaths, CDC report

I'd say that's a pretty substantial amount of people.

And the statistics look like this is only from the US.


Heroin deaths aren't usually attributed only to heroin, but in combination with alcohol:

"A striking finding from the toxicological data was the relatively small number of subjects in whom morphine only was detected. Most died with more drugs than heroin alone 'on board', with alcohol detected in 45% of subjects and benzodiazepines in just over a quarter. Both of these drugs act as central nervous system depressants and can enhance and prolong the depressant effects of heroin."

Heroin


Cocaine

Regardless of how coc aine is used or how frequently, a user can experience acute cardiovascular or cerebrovascular emergencies, such as a heart attack or stroke, which could result in sudden death. Cocaine-related deaths are often a result of cardiac arrest or seizure followed by respiratory arrest.

The amount of people consuming alcohol, tobacco, and pharmaceuticals account for a majority of the population. The majority is not also consuming coc aine, heroin, cannabis, and other "illegal" drugs.

The death rate is going to be higher with alcohol and the other legal drugs due to the sheer amount of users.

Overdosing on heroin is possible, but the drug itself only lowers the person's heart rate. Its not a poison that infects them and kills them chemically.

Cocaine is the opposite. Your heart rate can become too quick although the outcome may be the same.

--------------

Sorry for derailing the thread, but I thought discussing the dangers of another legal drug was relevant.




[edit on 4/22/2008 by biggie smalls]

Originally posted by cleggy88

Notice how it's people who have tried Salvia and other things that are defending it, meanwhile the blind and ignorant (as you have no experience what-so-ever with it) are the ones putting it down.

This is a ridiculous addition to any pro/con narcotic argument. We can take this argument to any number of things. I read a short story named "Pin" once about a guy who intentionally poked himself in the retina of his eyeball with a straight pin because the sudden burst of light and intense pain caused him euphoria. I don't need to poke my eye out to know enough to tell people "Don't stick needles into your eyeballs!" I don't need to pour battery acid over my genitals and then roll around in a fire ant hill to know it's a dumb idea and something only a fool would consider doing. A person doesn't have to have a close person experience with a drug to know the drug is bad news. In fact, I'd argue that personal use of the drug negates a person's opinion about said drug because their perception has been tainted and their reality has been altered by the drug. Kinda like how we don't believe paid witnesses in court cases.

www.merriam-webster.com...

3: something and often an illegal substance that causes addiction, habituation, or a marked change in consciousness

www.merriam-webster.com...

: a person who habitually uses drugs

Note the marked change in conciousness. Many plants are drugs, including tobacco, marijuanna, and salvia. If it's a drug, then a user of it would, by definition be a druggie. I don't understand why you believe that since it's a plant it's not a drug. Seems like the same logic that has lead pot smokers to call it weed or herb. A turd by any other name is still poop.

Then by your exact definition

If it's a drug, then a user of it would, by definition be a druggie.

anyone who takes any drug at all is a druggy? Painkillers and antibiotics included? I guess not as druggy is a derogatory term for someone who takes illicit drugs. Illicit or not it's still a drug...

And why is my point a stupid argument, you say someone who has taken it has their opinion skewed, what do you base your opinion on? What other people have told you? What you have read somewhere?

Again back to my chicken argument, I could sit here all day and say it tastes like # and makes me go purple, but I cannot realistically say this if I have never tried it...

[edit on 22-4-2008 by cleggy88]

Originally posted by DYepes
Whenever I have tried salvia (legal in my state), I do lose perception of my immediate surroundings, but I dont see wierd things like others report. I just feel like I am in a void and am trying to break out? I dont feel enlightened or connected to the creator at all. I am leaning on the belief that those who say this are making it up to hide their dependance.

I am appalled that you can just brush other's experiences under the rug simply because you didn't share them. How absolutely ignorant to say "they're making it up to hide their dependance."

Dependance? I did it one afternoon three years ago and felt the full range of experiences. I haven't done it since, so I'm pretty confused about this statement of my "dependance" on it. As someone yourself who's used it five times and walked away no problem, how can you be so ignorant about the dependance issue? Many people have negative experiences and never touch it again. Even those who experience the full range will say it's not the type of drug someone will choose to use recreationally. It has the most appeal towards those who have respect towards the plant and don't try to use her for their pleasure.

I had a sitter, my significant other. We took turns and watched each other during our trips.

First hit, I felt not much, a very mild high.

Second, I burst into uncontrollable laughter for the length of the trip, worried even that I might never stop laughing and made me question if the world I knew was real. I felt light prickles all over my skin as I came down.

Third hit, I was plunged (backwards) into a 2d world of colors that had the overwhelming feeling of a mexican marketplace and I was in a booth with a woman standing behind me, whispering inaudibly in my ear. All around were yellows and reds and oranges. The world was color. The prickles were more intense this time as I came back, I came to, crawling and laughing on the floor.

Fourth hit and I was sucked backwards onto this membrane of the sphere, on one side was reality and on the other, as I looked over my shoulder, I saw mexican shamans sitting with their legs crossed, pretty well floating while looking into the reality sphere and doing their work. I was half in this world and half in the other. This time, the prickles were downright unpleasantly strong, as I came to on the bed.

We ran out of the expensive herb and I haven't used it since, though I have a strong respect for the plant and the spirit associated with it. We smoked an extract, I think it was 10X. I would love to get a plant cutting and grow it on my own, it's a very modest looking plant that would fit in well with other house plants.

Originally posted by d11_m_na_c05
I have been planting this stuff everywhere for YEARS . lol You can literally buy the seeds at any grocery store. Next time your walking past the "seed rack" check for yourself.

Its actually a really pretty flower . Brightens up any lawn/garden.

This and the salvia that everyone sees in the garden center or in seed catalogs like Burpee or Parks is
Salvia Splendens (annual).....or Salvia Farinacea (perennial) or even salvia Patens ( perennial)....not quite the same 'animals' so to speak

This is salvia divinorum

So I purchased several Salvia splendens plants from a local nursery and tried smoking the dried leaves. After smoking a huge amount, I did not notice any effects other than a slight headache. I then made an extract of the leaves using the same procedure that I had been using to extract salvinorin A from Salvia divinorum. I experimented with this extract several times, using ever-increasing amounts, but was still unable to detect any effects. At this point I was convinced that Salvia splendens was inactive.

source
www.sagewisdom.org...

The author goes on to say some people do claim that they get something from the S.Splendens, but about the same as those given a placebo and told it's the salvia......

The bottom line, these varieties probably would not be so easily ( or cheaply) available if there were similar chemicals in them as is in the Salvia Diviorium.

[edit on 22-4-2008 by frayed1]

I mean look at the effects, it's pathetic and despicable. Only most retarded individuals would resolve to this as an alternative to illegal drugs. Those kids above are ignorant and irresponsible idiots who has no life better than to do drugs

dont try to lessen the evils of heroin and coc aine. there is not a responsible user of either of those drugs . Niether crack or methamphetamines.

I wouldn't fight making weed legal, even though I've never smoked it and have no intention of changing that. But to consider legalizing anything else is a crock.

hey look, another thread where users are allowed to bash drug users (in this case, salvia - even though its still legal) and call them everything from scumbags to druggies to "despicable." And of course, there is absolutely no recourse or debate I can offer to such statements without violating the rules here, so I'll just stick to pointing out the ignorant comments by others, and just hope that they are embarrassed at posting such nonsense.

And this place is supposed to deny ignorance... awesome, just awesome.

That a government entity has ANY right to tell an adult human what they can and cannot put into their own body is unreal...Should there be rules? Certainly. Make it legal for adult purchase only, and instate laws the same as intoxicants---No public interaction or usage, no getting behind any moving machinery or vehicles.

But should somebody not be able to explore hallucinogens within the confines of their own home? That is ridiculous, control-freak stuff.

reply to post by freighttrain

why ban something that gives you an insight of who you truly are and a sense of love/peace.

Because the establishment doesnt want you to be able to think for yourself.

The reason why illegal drugs are so illegal is because most grow naturally and the govt cant turn a profit off of it because if it were legal everyone would grow drugs in their own backyard. You cannot, however, produce pharmasuticals in your basement. It is a huge industry that makes the govt and the drug companies rich. Bottom line is they already got you hooked on their s**t. The difference is their stuff makes people more sick on average.

I just have a few things to say to my fellow salvia supporters:

Why do you care so much if a bunch of ignoramuses on the Internet think something bad about you for using this stuff?

We all know it's not addictive. We know the difference between having a "dependence" on something, and enjoying the unique experience that thing has to offer. As adults - those of us that are - we are capable of deciding for ourselves whether it's "good" or "bad" for us. As for those who are not adults, that's something their parents need to take responsibility for instead of pawning it off on society like everything else.

So I say, don't sweat what a bunch of strangers on the interweb think. By their definition of "dependance," anyone who masturbates is an addict and an idiot and all other kinds of awful just because they depend on the activity to achieve a certain feeling.

The only thing we should be worrying about is the government, and even that's a moot point. Politicians will do what they want to do because people with more money in their pockets than you'll make in your lifetime are the only ones they really ever have to answer to.

Originally posted by mattifikation
Why do you care so much if a bunch of ignoramuses on the Internet think something bad about you for using this stuff?

because it's this very mindset that creates the public stir, which then demands action by the government. I also have to put equal blame on these morons uploading videos of themselves smoking salvia to youtube. They are just as much to blame, if not - more.

I have never touched an illegal drug in my life. I never smoked weed, but all of my friends did. In fact, I don't even smoke cigarettes, but my entire family does. And I've never smoked Salvia either, but I did want to. The thing is, it is illegal in Oklahoma already. BUT, only in altered or enhanced forms. And I've tried to buy it on ebay, but no one would sell it to me because they didn't understand the law.

However, now they want to completely ban it? That's dumb. I agree with many of the posts I have read here. They ban things like weed, and Salvia, but let alcohol and cigarettes remain legal. Which is really messed up regarding cigarettes, because we all KNOW they are altered and enhance to secure future customers. Anyway... not to get off topic.

So we are running out of room in prisons. We're going to be forced to start early releasing prisoners as it is. And we, the people, have to pay our hard earned tax dollars, to "house" them in the first place. Hmmm... that makes sense.

I'm sick of uptight men in suits, who can't seem to relate to us, and who don't listen to us... writing laws that imprison us, and expect us to keep putting them back IN office. I thought our voices counted? This whole time I've had it completely backwards. It's all so obvious now. We're suppose to just believe everything they say. DUH! They're the government. They're ALWAYS right. How silly of me...

Originally posted by EagleTalonZ
We're going to be forced to start early releasing prisoners as it is. And we, the people, have to pay our hard earned tax dollars, to "house" them in the first place. Hmmm... that makes sense.

not to mention, taxpayers also pay for:

- litigation of all cases ever presented in court
- fees for introducing the ban
- cost of promoting the ban
- paying police to enforce salvia ban
- additional policing needed to monitor online sales

all that, in addition to the costs of people that end up actually going to jail because of it.

reply to post by scientist


Yeah... this is really upsetting to me. I think the war on drugs is a complete and total failure. Our government is wasting time harassing peaceful weed smokers who are just content to sit on the sidewalk and laugh at the stars, rather than capture the real criminals.

We don't have the room for this stupidity, nor the luxury of financial ability to do such a thing. Our government needs to stop doing "dumb" things and wise up. Why is it that the people can see further than the government? And that other countries can see better than the leadership of the "most powerful nation on earth"?

Ron Paul was really the only candidate I ever heard mention ending the war on drugs as it is, "A useless effort that could be spent on wiser things". But... the government obviously didn't want those words or that man to have any power. Can we say media blackout? BAH!

This thread makes me mad. I'm going to sit outside, focus on some ground, "intend" some salvia to grow and then smoke it while singing I fought the law... but it'll have a happy ending in my version.

Originally posted by EagleTalonZ
I think the war on drugs is a complete and total failure.

yes, but to who? Just like the war on terror, it's not so much about fighting terror and winning, but more about how much money they can funnel into the process itself. Just like drugs - the money goes towards giving DEA, Police, courts, lawyers, etc. - they all get paid and work off of money due to illegal drug cases. If they were legal, all of a sudden most of the prison guards, jails, courts, etc. would be losing money.

So "total failure" may be your opinion, within a certain context, but in the master plan I believe that the war on drugs/terror/etc. is doing just fine - it takes money from taxpayers and puts it into hands of big business and government.

Originally posted by biggie smalls
Alcohol is the most dangerous drug on this planet. More people have died consuming it than any other drug.

The fact people star you for defending the use of heroin is interesting to say the least.

But, your answer is right there. More people die from using alcohol because a heck of alot more people use it! That does not suggest alcohol is more dangerous than heroin. Basic logic here.

Give up on the weak retorts and grow some brains... I can't believe you of all people would be so stupid.

[edit on 2008/4/23 by SteveR]

Originally posted by SteveR
The fact people star you for defending the use of heroin is interesting to say the least.

I am not defending the use of heroin. I'm not defending the use of alcohol either. A drug is a drug, people use it to escape reality or deal with life.

Where have I said "heroin is OK to use and I love to do it everyday"?

But, your answer is right there. More people die from using alcohol because a heck of alot more people use it! That does not suggest alcohol is more dangerous than heroin. Basic logic here.

I agree statistics do not prove that heroin is less dangerous than alcohol. The fact of the matter is they're both dangerous, especially in high doses. You will not die from a small hit of heroin, neither will you die from one shot of alcohol. However, prolonged use of either is certainly dangerous especially to one's liver. Alcohol has been linked to cancer of the mouth, throat, and liver (and I'm sure others) whereas heroin has not been studied enough to prove much of anything as its an illegal drug and studying illegal substances is typically frowned upon.

Opiates as pain killers work wonders, but are highly addictive. Alcohol, however, is also highly addictive with little to no medicinal value (a pain killer as well I guess).

Give up on the weak retorts and grow some brains... I can't believe you of all people would be so stupid.

As I can't afford to spend money on growing a brain in a laboratory, I guess I'm stuck with what I got.


--------------------

Now that we've completely derailed the thread, what is your position on salvia?

[edit on 4/23/2008 by biggie smalls]

I just wanted to clarify my opinions on drugs.

I do not defend drug use. Drug use is a personal choice and do not let someone else tell you what you should or should not do. They are not your body. Your body knows what is best for it.

Heroin, alcohol, tobacco, methamphetamine, and pharmaceuticals are all harmful drugs. I am not advocating anyone to use any of the above.

My main point was that classifying drugs as "legal" does not make them necessarily less harmful as "illegal" drugs.

The cannabis plant is infinitely less damaging than tobacco, yet tobacco is legal and cannabis is not. Hypocrisy? You bet.

Just because something is illegal doesn't make it "evil" and just because something is legal doesn't make it "good."

Do the research, question your own assumptions, and come to logical conclusions.

Drugs are not all bad, nor are they all good.

Use everything in moderation no matter what it is. Remember that.

Originally posted by biggie smalls
My main point was that classifying drugs as "legal" does not make them necessarily less harmful as "illegal" drugs.

Agreed.

here is the articali was going to reference in my urlyer post about the problems with dosing

Notes of Caution by Daniel J. Siebert
(Previously published in "The Entheogen Review" Vol. 3, No.4: Winter Solstice, 1994)


Salvinorin A (the major active principal of the plant Salvia divinorum) is an extremely powerful consciousness altering compound. In fact it is the most potent naturally occurring hallucinogen thus far isolated. But before would-be experimenters get too worked-up about it, it should be made clear that the effects are often extremely unnerving and there is a very real potential for physical danger with its use.

When the herb Salvia divinorum is consumed either by smoking the dried leaf or chewing the fresh leaves the effects are usually (but not always) pleasant and interesting, this is because when used this way the amount of salvinorin A absorbed into the blood stream is usually very small and in the case of the chewed leaves it is absorbed into the blood stream very gradually.

The pure compound salvinorin A is active at 200 - 500 mcg when vaporized and inhaled. Since very few people have the costly equipment necessary to accurately weigh anything close to this small an amount, it is inevitable that people will try to visually estimate the dose. Unfortunately there is little room for error before the effects become potentially dangerous. When the dose goes above 500 - 1000 mcg the effects can be very alarming, I have seen several people get up and lunge around the room falling over furniture, babbling incomprehensible nonsense and knocking their heads into walls. Several people have tried to wander out of the house. When the experience is over they have no memory of any of this. In fact they usually remember very different events. To an outside observer people in this condition have a blank look in their eyes as if no one is present (and perhaps no one is). It is also common for people to have a facial expression which is probably best described as being like that of a frightened animal. It appears that at these "larger" doses one completely loses awareness of, and control over, the physical body and for some reason part of the brain causes the body to get up and move about recklessly while the individual has no awareness of where their physical body is or what it is doing. It seems inevitable that one of these days some careless person will do too large a dose without a sitter and will wander out in the street, or hurt themselves in some way.

Because the dose is so small and insignificant looking, there is a tendency for people to think they need more than what they are told is a safe dose. Another problem is that the technique of vaporizing and inhaling the compound can be a bit tricky. Salvinorin A has a relatively high boiling point and people often don't get it hot enough to remain a gas all the way down into the lungs. Another problem is that so little is used that the vapor often disperses before it gets inhaled. Sometimes people just don't hold the vapor in their lungs long enough for thorough absorption. Several people after trying a dose in the recommended safe range and not getting an effect assumed that they needed a larger dose, when in fact the problem was that they did not vaporize the material efficiently the first time. I have already seen more than one intelligent, careful and experienced person accidentally do too large a dose because of this. Fortunately they had sitters and managed to get through the experience safely.

It is also important to understand that there have been no toxicological studies of this compound in humans. It is true that the Mazatecs have used the plant for a very long time and don't seem to have problems with it, but when the pure compound is used it would be a simple matter to consume a dose hundreds of times greater than anything ever encountered by the Mazatecs.

Not only is salvinorin A chemically different from other hallucinogens (it is a diterpene not an al

(it is a diterpene not an alkaloid) but its effects are quite different as well. Many people consider the effects less manageable and harder to work with than other entheogens. The majority of people who have had a full blown experience with salvinorin A are reluctant to ever do it again. Anyone choosing to experiment with this compound should always have an alert, clear-thinking sitter present to prevent them from injuring themselves or others.

Salvia divinorum as an herb can be used quite safely and many people claim that it has proved beneficial to them. Hopefully there will not be a rush to isolate the pure compound as it is almost inevitable that it will cause problems, people will get hurt, the compound and possibly the plant will get negative attention and it will become scheduled. We will just be adding one more potentially valuable plant ally to the list of species which are already feared and condemned in our society. If you choose to pursue a relationship with this plant please treat it with respect and care. Perhaps if people can use the plant safely and responsibly it will be able to grow and thrive freely into the future.

[thats the rest that got cut off]