USA 2008: The Great Depression

reply to post by Maxmars

---

so you read the book "The Fifth Estate?" I read it back in the 70's. The media is not going to inform the public they need their jobs as well.

I will say though I feel CNBC has been somewhat fair through all of this...even like today the market which is rallying like mad after news comes out of more writedowns and more raising money to stay in business they are scratchng their heads "300 point rally on this news?"

What we all need to understand is we're all interdependent on each other as a society. If I have more money to spend, that's means someone else will benefit from it as well. I'll buy more from my local businesses, which in turn helps provides someone with a steady job. The business makes a profit, I get something I need, and some worker is able put food on his family's table. Everyone is happy.

When I don't have any disposable cash, I buy less. This effects the local businesses, who in return cut back on their number of employees to offset their loss in sales. Now we have one or more people who are unemployed, and must either draw unemployment benefits, or go on welfare to provide for their family. That ends up being taken out of your tax dollars as well as mine. We're all unhappy now.

I'm not an economist, I used to a counselor and homeless myself, so I probably have a very simplistic view of how an economy is supposed to work, nevertheless, I know when I have less buying power when it comes to my money. If I'm wrong sue me. It's the American way.



[edit on 4/1/08 by LLoyd45]

I'm gonna share a bit of my story so maybe it will open some eyes about the financial state of our country. Last year I was a government contractor and doing very well. I am in the communications field with several years of school and job experience as well as I was in the USAF. The week before Christmas last year in 2007 I was laid off. The entire project shut down and has not restarted. I have been everywhere looking for work. I have sent out resume's, talked with recruiters and head hunters. The jobs just aren't there. The entry level jobs I can't get hired for. I keep getting the over qualified line. The plants and factories anywhere near here that do have a position are only offering 7 - 8 dollars an hour. My rent is 650.00 a month and average utilities run between 3 and 4 hundred a month. I am drawing more on unemployment than I ever could with one of these jobs. These are jobs that a few years ago paid 12 - 15 dollars an hour. Now they only want to hire immigrants in and at half what they were before. We have lost our house and for the first time in my life have applied for food stamps. The scary thing is that between WIC and food stamps, there still is not enough to feed us all month. My wife took a job at a fast food place just so we could pay our small bills. I went grocery shopping this morning and spent 60$ and got diapers, eggs, milk, chicken breasts, pasta shells, and deoderant. We are flat broke, and getting broker. We have moved in with my inlaws, and they are having financial problems as well. Our utilities were that high when it was just me, the wife, and 9 month old son. Now there are 5 of us there. The banks and creditors are acting like I've never seen before. Our utilities were shut off the day after our bill was due and we didn't pay it. We missed 1 car payment and we got papers delivered by the police demanding our car. We borrowed money and got that resolved. I've never seen things like they are now, ever. I'm getting scared for my family if it gets much worse. Wal-Mart has even done away with their layaway program. Things are hurting all over.
From where I'm sitting we are in a recession and headed full blown into depression. Gas prices are sky rocketing for no legitimate reason, groceries are going sky high as well, and becoming scarce as well, the demand for metals is outstanding. A bag of pennies is worth twice it's face value if melted down. Looks to me like the Governments are hoarding everything in preparation for something big. Either to ration it all later, or some tragedy.

Keep in mind that all of this has happened in the time frame of December 07 till now April 01 2008. A little over three months.

I live in the midwest. We did not see the housing boom of the coastal areas but did see a nice rise in property values. What we are currently seeing in my neck of the woods is fuel going up. Housing stagnant, food prices up. But something new is going on here.
We are seeing price wars from the local restaurants. Subway just announced that all 12'' subs are only $5.00. Dominos and Papa Johns pizza are in a price war with Little Ceasars with $5.00 large pizzas. Evidently there is a serious downturn in fast food here.
I think that the people just cannot afford to eat out anymore as all descretionary spending is cut back or eliminated. I know for one that we do not eat out near as much as before.
The money supply is starting to dry up here. What we are starting to see is trickle down economics in reverse. The average citizen is going to pay for the brunt of this problem in one manner or another.
I too will probably plant a garden this year. I will also go hunting this season. If many do this it will only deepen this puddle that we are approaching.
As too not pulling out. It is true that if we all stick too our guns things might not be so bad, but we just cannot trust the banks and the govt. not to take advantage of us.

respectfully

reluctantpawn

reply to post by Christian Voice

---

try telling that to Infinite.

This is true. But not in the way that the Independent thinks; they are right in their facts, but not right in their conclusion.

Yes, 1/10 Ohioans and 1/6 West Virginians are recieving food stamps. However, it is not because of a worsening economy. Rather, it's because over the last few years, federal and state governments have relaxed the eligibility requirements for food stamps. In addition, for the first time in history, the government is advertising food-stamps, mostly on hispanic-oriented radio-stations.

reply to post by LLoyd45

---

We call THAT inflation..



I got a job in December in the financial sector making very good money considering I am 21 and have half a college degree. Many other jobs exist out there as well.. in fact, my office needs more employees but cannot hold onto them because people are honestly to lazy to show up for work.. as for the rest of your post I believe those to be personal problems.. mortgage people got laid off, but even they are making a come back this year. Manufacturing jobs will go over seas, but only because they wanted $30 an hour to work a job that shouldn't pay more then $15.



This is true, it may become a true economic disaster, no doubt about it.. I believe it will get worse.. but.. that does not mean its worse now.. and it does not mean emotional inflation of the issue is correct either.



The people who have lost the most are securities traders and securities backers.. people who put funds into mortgages.. its a bet that they lost.. the financial sector is ankle deep in # because ignorant people borrowed 10x their true value.. one must ask ones self. Don't the greedy deserve the retribution coming their way? I have 3k in credit card debt.. which I could pay off if I wanted to.. but those with 50k in credit card debt and a 600k house when they make 60k a year... don't deserve and won't get my sympothy.

mybigunit

You know me.. I tend to agree with the "conspiracy" side of the matter.. the Fed messed up, the banks robed innocent people, coupled with the ignorant who borrowed with full knowledge of their actions and the massive amounts of debt per person we will eventually be in a depression.

But we are not in one yet.. its a simple fact: we are not in a depression. And being in a recession is not exactly clear.. usually you don't know you where in a recession until your out of it.



Because from a technical point of view.. nothing is wrong with the economy.. in that, the Fed has kept a sealed lid on the problem.. like cancer, it was pin pointed and radiation is being applied to kill off the bad cells.. there will be side effects and the whole economy may feel them.. but if they do it RiGHT ... the economy will live..

The service industry and the technology industries are all doing ok for now.. which is the vast majority of our economy anymore.. Financials is a small portion.. day traders and the likes.. manufacturing is on its way out, we are a post modern nation..

The problem is how much longer can the INDIVIDUAL hold out.. once American's stop spending.. we sink, our economy dies.. once we stop borrowing and charging and throwing money out the window.

I don't think the average American can handle the drastic inflation increases.. each Christmas season is smaller and smaller.. while sales go up, taking into account population increase its less per individual.. a show that we are pulled possibly to our maximum.. our way of life is threatened, and credit card usage increased at such a drastic rate shows Americans will do ANYTHING including burrying themselves in debt to keep their way of life..



Its odd.. Maybe they expect a Federal infusion or something.. my bet is people are buying cheap and plan on selling.. we see this before.. huge spikes, then it bottoms out the next day or so..



Which is the real problem.. Americans spending less.



The bars are packed.. but your right, less people are eating out.. its nice to go out on Friday night and not wait for a table because no one else can afford to eat out. Thats the benefit of not using credit cards on everything.

SaviorComplex

I live in Ohio.. we have a very large population of trashy uneducated citizens who have been and always will be on food stamps. That does not concern me, nor does the ammount of people using them increasing.. however, what is concerning is the number of once middle class now using food stamps. Go to Ohio, go to WV .. and its no surprise 1/10 use food stamps.

reply to post by Rockpuck

---

Im not saying we are in a depression but I feel for sure we are in a recession and the government is hiding it so there isnt that "panic" that everyone refers to. That is the conspiracy in my eyes.

The fact is Im a simple guy and as they say if it looks like a duck walks like a duck and quacks like a duck generally its a duck and man this looks like a duck to me. I think the government is panicing more so than the people but while panicing playing out like everything is ok kind of like how enron and worldcom acted before collapse.

Your right we dont know on a technical side that we are in a recession till we get out but i dont need technical info to tell me things are not good. I look no further than myself, my neighborhood and the town I live in to see that.

reply to post by musselwhite

---

Grow up.

My advice to you would be to learn some basic respect.

I don't expect a member to U2U me informing I am being attacked in a thread after I've stopped posting in it. You've got a problem with me, be mature about it and U2U me. Don't attack me after I've left. All I said was we are not in a depression, which some have agreed with me in this thread.

mybigunit does not agree with me, but do you see him acting like a five year old when someone does not agree with him? No you don't. That is why others and I respect him very much.

Next time, you are straight on my ignore list

Well for a Great Depression Wall Street is kicking arse and taking names today boys. Not that I get excited over this kind of worthless Capitalist crap, but ..

The Dow Jones is up 360 points, UP 360 points as of 3pm EST!

And the other two, which I forgot the names of, were up by 70pts and 40pts, respectively.

But the main one, the biggest .. the dow? up 360pts .. explain that!
It is April fools day, and this isn't even a joke, i am telling the truth!

You'll be calling it hunger when you no longer have a job, and your parents can't help you out anymore.


I'm glad you feel all safe and secure in you fantasy world right now, because before you know what's happening, it'll be crumbling around your head. Then you'll get to meet some of those people with those personal problems you seem to look down your nose at face-to-face. I doubt you'll enjoy the experience.

Believe me Rockpuck, I've been there, and things were alot better then they are right now. You'll definitely learn the meaning of humility or you won't last long.



Keep those happy thoughts, you'll need them soon enough.

Those poor leeches, my heart bleeds for them.. Yes, they deserve what's coming to them , and I'm sure they'll be getting it.



[edit on 4/1/08 by LLoyd45]

reply to post by infinite

---

what are you talking about? we are simply not in agreement. what's the big deal? don't take it personally.

Regardless of numbers that are posted by the banks, feds, surveys, etc,.. I can assure everyone outside of the USA that we are in a recession.

I live in Michigan and it is really bad here, as for the rest of the country I can not vouch for.

1 in 4 homes is being foreclosed on in South East Michigan, this started last year when it was only a few here and there. This is only the result of many years of job loss and people leaving the state due to poor policy making.

Most industrial jobs left after NAFTA was signed into being. I saw many tightly run small businesses that worked directly for the Automotive industry file for bankruptcy within 5 years of NAFTA.

I know well get through this but things could be better and I guess they also could be worse.

Today the stock market (DOW) was up 372+ points (meaning dollars)

of course today was April 1st, the traditional 'Trickster' day of the year....



i can only hope this Bear Rally will last long enough for me to sell
all my 'Principle' stocks ... as i will let ride all the Dividend Stocks I've accumulated over the last 10 years.


Also, i'm plunking my measely $50. weekly contributions into the Gold Fund i'm in... hope Gold tanks for the next 2 months
because after Sept or Nov of '08, at the latest... my thinking on the 'Trends'
should bear fruit$

reply to post by mybigunit

---

I believe we are in a recession as well.. however from a technical standpoint there is little evidence to back this up..

Its odd .. its like.. businesses are doing ok .. in many places they are not, but in enough places they are.. I have tried to read on why this is happening. In cities like Portland Oregon cranes tower the skyline and new buildings are erected with new jobs. It has a very young population, huge corporations, very nice schools.. and its a boom and its unexplained why.

Yet in some cities like Detroit, Cleavland, St. Louis.. our once big cities.. are now shrinking, there is no construction only decay.. it should be noted, in the cities that are new and on the rise such as Portland, the infrastructure is new as well, rebuilt as the cities expand .. where as older cities it is decrepit.

But enough NEW business or old standing businesses in specific areas are doing OK .. while in many other areas its not.

So some see a depression. Some see an economic boom.. I see transition .. a move from the old world to the new world of globalization .. if I where not up for a big promotion in the coming month I had planned to move to Portland Oregon in July.. me and my fiancee both had jobs lined up, well paying, and the city is growing compared to our decaying city we currently live in (federally classified as "depressed urban center" ... lol )

some states are seeing this problem state wide.. in Ohio counties pay students to go to school.. all in the hopes that for a minimum of 3 years you will stay and work in that county.. because students don't want to be here.. its old, its dead, there is no urban life left in the city. the buses and the thugs took it over (our city built 3 downtown areas in the suburbs so surburbanites could go to a urban center without the urban problems.. thats a telling sign of America..) so Students are fleeing the state and not looking back. Ohio is not alone, Michigan, PA, Indiana, Mississippi and several others have the same problem.. an acceleration of what was once an obvious truth - America experiences migration of populations from one point to another. This is why I feel so many experience the economic changes so much worse then others.

others just like to gripe for the sake of griping.

but either way, i agree we are in a recession .. GDP may not be down, but I think enough people are now suffering compared to the late 90's..

runetang



A depression has nothing to do with the stock market. In 1929 the markets crashed, but the only effect was banks closing that hurt people, then the loss of jobs. After the initial massive sell off, the market steadily gained points, far more up then down if you look at the graphs. Massive sell offs like that are now impossible, once the market hits a certain percentage the markets are closed to allow investors to calm down.

LLoyd45



I won't be loosing my job. And besides, my family owns a farm. And by the way, my parents do not help me at all, not since 18 mate. Thanks for assuming.



Its not a fantasy, its a fact.. we are not in a depression.. how can we be in a depression if we are not even sure if we are in a recession? .. I doubt you know what a depression is.



My industry makes more money during economic hard times then we do in prosperous times. Or rather, there is a far better chance to exploit the money that is lieing around. and yes, even in 1929 there was money.. not everyone was poor you know.. about 20% or so unemployment.



Iv been at the bottom, I worked from the bottom, and that only solidifies my belief the only thing that holds people back is themselves.

Realtruth



My first big paragraph is for you as well.. I believe it is human migration causing this problem.. because where Michigan is depressed.. Oregon, Washington, Vermont, South Carolina, North Carolina, Arizona, are still seeing economic expansion far greater then other states.. remember.. those industrial centers are 100-150 years old + .. times change, and with it will come the pains of change.

reply to post by Christian Voice

---

Hello Christian Voice, sorry about all your turmoil, but thanks for the info my friend. It does prove that IT is really happening.

I am from Canada and here we are loosing major jobs in the Wood industry, paper factories... He the gas prices average 1$/Gallon and food prices are getting higher...

Seems to me that something worst will happen because it cannot continue like this...

Take care

Grinder

I don't think we are in a depression, or a recession.....
I think we are in totally uncharted territory here. and, it doesn't help when you read articles that state that even the "experts" in the fed and the treasury are lost at trying to figure out just what has gone down, and what will go down, or what to do about it. the projected loss of all these derivitives is greater than the combined value of all the real estate world wide, greater than the gnp of our country and I believe all the rest...it's huge!
someone mentioned the new bankruptcy laws, and about how we can't even releive all this debt to give the economy a kick start. all I can say to that is that the laws can be rewritten if necessary, and it might be necessary? how about a year of jubilee? when all people, businesses, countries, banks, ect. are forgiven of all their debt and we all start all over again? I wonder if there would even be even any losers with such a proposal? ya, I owe some people some money, and alot of other people do also, but how much do these people owe others, and them others, and on down the line.....to the fed. and of course, there's people who owe my money also, like my boss, my bank, ect. I don't know if it would be feasible or not...

1 in 6 residents in west virginia is recieving food stamps now, I think the nationwide average is something like one in ten? Our wages have steadily been decreasing, the good jobs have gone overseas, being replaced with lower paying jobs, jobs that enable a person to qualify for food stamps and such.....they're acting like it's a new problem, but I think it's something that's steadily been growing. Like I keep asking, why is it that the taxpayer is subsidizing so many company's payroll.....a starving employee, isn't gonna be worth sqaut for the companies, so, well.....it stands to reason that either we have alot of companies that really cannot operate and turn a profit without alot of gov't money being directed at them to allow them to, or, their "record profits" and high salaried upper management comes with a cost to the taxpayers.