Anyone here a Freemason? Anyone know a Mason?

TO ALL MASONS

Ok here we go again with the mason conspiracie....first let me say I had a discussion with the axeman some time ago where I was very anti mason in my belife, and well maybe im just paranoide I will admit that. Then now after thinking about the subject I have come to the conclusion I know nothing I just presume it....That said I have some questions.. earlier there was a talk about the federal or banking cartels to be the most scary and "Evil" in the history since the founding fathers then another implies that the masons is the cause of this problem and the debate goes on....So I do belive it is possible to be kept in the dark even at a higher rank.. it happens in politics, police, military even just a norrmal company where someone is hired. I now realize that the symbology can have diffrent meaning , both positive and negative *IF* you belives the rituals to work and represent what some conspiraciy people claime. Now on with my investigation... So you the Masons help people by giving to charety right? can you give and examples of the organisations you fund ? the choice of funding is decided by whom? Is it always the same organisations that are funded?

When you see presidents swear on to the masonic bible thus becomming president is that just a pose? just like bush did based on false statment and an atempt for the bankers,greed warmongers, to give the actual masons a bad name and fuel the conspiracy to derive them of the (I belive) power they once had be it for good or bad ? If the masons have no power influence how could they found a country? By swearing to the Masonic bible before becoming president dosen't that implie that they do or used to run certain things in goverment


I don't know who is right or wrong it would seem like a matter of belife once again since if someone is a dark evil mason world ruler he would never tell the truth. and those who are the top masons get acussed for being evil and they realy aren't and tell the truth .. Then conspiracy people will NEVER belive him either

Iam now of the belif that you must follow the money the power, the influence, and see what they do with it to conclude who is good who is evil even though its just opinions to find out where you stand

Currently Iam Flying

[edit on 2-4-2008 by a-being-?]

Originally posted by lazy1981


What is meant by "clandestine?" Do you you refer to "irregular" Masonic Lodges as they are called when they are outside the authority of the Grand Lodges due to some misbehavior, or do you mean something else?

Sort of. "Clandestine" Lodges are those not recognized by traditional Grand Lodges. "Irregular" Lodges are those who do not adhere to the Ancient Landmarks. Therefore, all irregular Lodges are clandestine, but not all clandestine Lodges are irregular.

I realize that's probably confusing, so I'll give an example, using Crowley's Lodge (Anglo-Saxon Lodge in Paris). That Lodge was chartered by the Grand Lodge of France, which never received recognition from the UGLE of any American Grand Lodges. Thus it was clandestine.

However, the Lodge adhered to the Landmarks. They only admitted men of full age who believed in the existence of a Supreme Being, worked the degrees in the standard fashion, etc. Thus they were regular in their work. Eventually, after Crowley's death, the Lodge became recognized, and is still in existence, no longer clandestine.

On a side note, you tell history quite well. You should teach. It seems to suit you.

lol, thanks. I teach part-time at a community college.

Originally posted by a-being-?
So you the Masons help people by giving to charety right? can you give and examples of the organisations you fund ? the choice of funding is decided by whom? Is it always the same organisations that are funded?

Different Masonic organizations generally have their own organized charities. For example, Shriners Childrens Hospitals and the Shrine Burn Centers are pretty well known. The Scottish Rite of Masonry sponsors the Scottish Rite Childhood Language Disorder Clinics, which treats kids with speech disorders. In the York Rite, there is the Knight Templar Eye Foundation, who sponsors elederly patients needing cataract surgery and other eye care.

Then there are individual cases that each Lodge may do. For example, a Lodge may pay a destitute widow's utility bill for her, or buy her groceries. My Lodge holds a fundraiser for the March of Dimes every year, and sponsors an event for horseback riding for autistic kids.

When you see presidents swear on to the masonic bible thus becomming president is that just a pose? just like bush did based on false statment and an atempt for the bankers,greed warmongers, to give the actual masons a bad name and fuel the conspiracy to derive them of the (I belive) power they once had be it for good or bad ? If the masons have no power influence how could they found a country? By swearing to the Masonic bible before becoming president dosen't that implie that they do or used to run certain things in goverment

No. They don't swear on it just because it's a Masonic Bible. They do it because it was George Washington's Bible, and it is a tradition that Presidents take the oath of office on the same Bible that Washington was sworn in on.



[edit on 2-4-2008 by Masonic Light]

reply to post by Masonic Light


OK that was good to know thanks !
So largely the funding goes to Masonic Institutions around the world
that to me seems like the Money stay's within the Masonic community and not given away to others outside. However since I don't know exactly what these organisations are all about then I can't Justefy a conspiracy and will belive that its in the service of the good and helping of others....But who owns the hospital headquarter building ? I can not seem to find anything other than its for charety and we help with language diseases ect but no mention of who actually owns the estate or buildings
they mention that each year the board is elected by the Shriners Hospital corporation and there is no mention of who the top dogs are so to speak.
(in other word the corporation)

then I found some article regarding charety fraud

like this : A series of investigative articles published by the Orlando Sentinel in 1986 reported that in 1985 the Shriners kept 71 percent of the $21.7 million raised to pay for clubhouse expenses, including the upkeep of private bars, restaurants, golf courses, conventions, travel, entertainment and fund raising. Less than 2 percent, or $346,251, went to the medical care of the children.

2) Shriners whistleblower Vernon Hill has worked with a former IRS agent and accountant, Paul Dolnier, for the last year and a half. They ordered and analyzed thousands of pages of Shriners tax returns which led to Dolnier presenting evidence of alleged charity fraud to the chief investigator, auditor and counsel for Pennsylvania’s Charitable Special Investigation unit during a six hour meeting in spring of 2006.

but then again thats just words vs other words However it would be a good way to conduct tax fraud and I don't blame anyone from wanting to do that but if the claim is true then you could say that the membership in the order is alot more costly.

but in all fairness there are alot more speaking for the hospitals than against them and Iam sure they have helped alot of people regardless of the accusations.

still it would be nice to know who is calling the shots who owns what ect.


Regarding the president swear on the masonic bible.

Ok so thats how it is that make sence actually .... btw you dident answer if you belive or disagree with the implication that the masons must have power and influence since the founding farthers could built a country.

with that I mean there is alot of rituals conducted like the offering of corn and the speach about laying the first corner stone . Then there is the claims that alot if not all the structure of the Wasington DC is built in masonic signs and symbology, or maybe i should call it ocult :

video.google.com...

to see what is claimed and debunk it if you think its BS so to speak but I realy like this video and find it facinating its 2.55 hours though
if you find time to watch it. Thanks for your replie so far

[edit on 3-4-2008 by a-being-?]

Originally posted by Masonic Light
[

No. They don't swear on it just because it's a Masonic Bible. They do it because it was George Washington's Bible, and it is a tradition that Presidents take the oath of office on the same Bible that Washington was sworn in on.



[edit on 2-4-2008 by Masonic Light]

The version of the story that I know of is a bit different. It wasn't Washington's Bible, when the inauguration was just about to get under way they realized that they had no Bible to swear him in on. With that a man ran to a nearby Masonic Lodge (I don't know who) and aked to borrow a Bible for the inauguration. That's how the Masonic Bible got into the picture.

Originally posted by Masonic Light


lol, thanks. I teach part-time at a community college.

Maybe I should be a detective.

What do you mean by "Anient Landmarks?" No offence taken if you're not able to tell. I've never heard that term before, or have forgotten it. I used to pretty well read on Masonic lore (we've had this talk before) I've forgotten alot of it.

reply to post by a-being-?


Masonic lodges are not obligated to donate all of the charity proceeds to charity, and can keep some to fund the operations of the lodge. They cannot go to individuals except through wages. Wages for some positions are like $5 a year lol.. and its always donated back. I imagine its for tax reasons.

Many lodges need charitable donations to keep afloat, however, most separate the funding drives. Like a donation box "for the lodge" and one "for such and such"

But in the end all the money donated must be voted on, as in, the exact amount. I have never seen money kept because we get enough through dues to pay the bills.

The foundations... for the most part, are out side of the Masonic community. Most involve children which, obviously, cannot be Masons. Most of the elderly programs however are for Masons or Masonic families. Most scholarships are also related to Masons or Masonic family members/descendants.

I personally would love to see Masonry take far more active charitable roles in the way of education for youth.. I can imagine the conspiracies with a Masonic School .. but hey.. it won't happen anyways. People think Masons are rich and the elite, in reality, we are cheap and stingy. To a point I suppose.

As for founding fathers.. it was not Masonry exactly that founded America but rather the enlightenment ideas. Not that they are very different at all. Had nothing to do with the Masonic organization though.

Originally posted by a-being-?

So largely the funding goes to Masonic Institutions around the world
that to me seems like the Money stay's within the Masonic community and not given away to others outside.

The majority of the money goes to non-Masons. It's just that they are sponsored by Masonic organizations.

However since I don't know exactly what these organisations are all about then I can't Justefy a conspiracy and will belive that its in the service of the good and helping of others....But who owns the hospital headquarter building ? I can not seem to find anything other than its for charety and we help with language diseases ect but no mention of who actually owns the estate or buildings.
they mention that each year the board is elected by the Shriners Hospital corporation and there is no mention of who the top dogs are so to speak.
(in other word the corporation)

The Board of Trustees consists of members from the Imperial Divan of the Shrine, along with various physicians, health care experts, and large donors. The membership is not static, but is revolving.

then I found some article regarding charety fraud

like this : A series of investigative articles published by the Orlando Sentinel in 1986 reported that in 1985 the Shriners kept 71 percent of the $21.7 million raised to pay for clubhouse expenses, including the upkeep of private bars, restaurants, golf courses, conventions, travel, entertainment and fund raising. Less than 2 percent, or $346,251, went to the medical care of the children.

That's not entirely accurate because it assumes that all money raised by Shriners is supposed to go to charity, which it isn't. Shriners also raise money to cover Temple expenses, go on trips, etc., just like other clubs. It would only be fraud if they claimed it was going to charity, but then used the money for something else.

but then again thats just words vs other words However it would be a good way to conduct tax fraud and I don't blame anyone from wanting to do that but if the claim is true then you could say that the membership in the order is alot more costly.

If someone actually *is* perpetrating tax fraud or charity scams, then they should be expelled from the fraternity, and be brought up on criminal charges.

Regarding the president swear on the masonic bible.

Ok so thats how it is that make sence actually .... btw you dident answer if you belive or disagree with the implication that the masons must have power and influence since the founding farthers could built a country.

I suppose it depends on what you mean by "power and influence". Obviously, Masonic ideals did greatly influence many of our forefathers and our founding documents. But the fraternity as an organization in itself could not be described as "powerful" in a political sense, I don't think.

Originally posted by lazy1981


What do you mean by "Anient Landmarks?" No offence taken if you're not able to tell. I've never heard that term before, or have forgotten it. I used to pretty well read on Masonic lore (we've had this talk before) I've forgotten alot of it.

The "Landmarks" are the time honored traditions of the Fraternity that by adhering to them, makes a Lodge regular in its work. Dr. Albert G. Mackey lists them as follows:

1. The modes of recognition.

2. THE division of Symbolic Masonry into three degrees.

3. The Legend of the Third Degree.

4. The government of the fraternity by a presiding officer called a Grand Master.

5. The prerogative of the Grand Master to preside over every assembly of the craft.

6. The prerogative of the Grand Master to grant Dispensations for conferring degrees at irregular times.

7. The prerogative of the Grand Master to give dispensations for opening and holding Lodges.

8. The prerogative of the Grand Master to make masons at sight.

9. The necessity of masons to congregate in lodges.

10. The government of the craft, when so congregated in a Lodge by a Master and two Wardens.

11. The necessity that every lodge, when congregated, should be duly tiled.

12. The right of every mason to be represented in all general meetings of the craft and to instruct his representatives.

13. The Right of every mason to appeal from the decision of his brethren in Lodge convened, to the Grand Lodge or General Assembly of Masons.

14. The right of every Mason to visit and sit in every regular Lodge.

15. No visitor, unknown as a Mason, can enter a Lodge without first passing an examination according to ancient usage

16. No Lodge can interfere in the business of another Lodge, nor give degrees to brethren who are members of other Lodges

17. Every freemason is Amenable to the Laws and Regulations of the masonic jurisdiction in which he resides.

18. Qualifications of a candidate: that he shall be a man, unmultilated, free born, and of mature age.

19. A belief in the existence of God.

20. Subsidiary to this belief in God, is the belief in a resurrection to a future life.

21. A "Book of the Law" shall constitute an indispensable part of the furniture of every Lodge.

22. The equality of all Masons within the Lodge.

23. The secrecy of the institution.

24. The foundation of a Speculative Science, for purposes of spititual or moral teaching.

25. These Landmarks can never be changed.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
3. The Legend of the Third Degree.

Is there a single "official" version of the legend, or are there a number of different versions? (I seem to have read a few variants of the story.)

9. The necessity of masons to congregate in lodges.

What about military Lodge? Is a lodge a physical building? or does it represent the act of Masons meeting "as a lodge"? Did G. Washington hold open air meetings during the war?

18. Qualifications of a candidate: that he shall be a man, unmultilated, free born, and of mature age.

Don't they have wheelchair access in masonic lodges? Are handicaps not accepted? Or did I misunderstand the term "mutilated"?


[edit on 4/4/08 by ConspiracyNut23]

reply to post by ConspiracyNut23

Is there a single "official" version of the legend, or are there a number of different versions? (I seem to have read a few variants of the story.)

May be some minor differences between jurisdictions, but the "legend" is the same everywhere.

What about military Lodge?

Never heard of it.

Is a lodge a physical building? or does it represent the act of Masons meeting "as a lodge"?

We meet "as a Lodge of Master Masons" and not "In a Lodge" as in the Lodge is the actual people.

Did G. Washington hold open air meetings during the war?

Not "open air" .. from my readings they where held in houses and tents with fellow Masons. Whether or not war planning went on during the meetings I cannot say, imo, it was a way to keep a little sanity in their lives as they lived in harsh conditions and dealt with the war day in day out.

Washington is not alone though..

In the military it is not uncommon for generals to hold Masonic meetings. And now adays, it is not uncommon for Brethren soldiers to meet at foriegn lodges who invite them, for instance, in some Arabian nations lodges, or make shift lodges formed on the spot by the Brethren. Also pacts made between Masons during war include investing another brother with your Apron, or your Aprons whereabouts on the promise that if he where to fall in conflict the other Brother would ensure his apron is applied as soon as possible.

Don't they have wheelchair access in masonic lodges? Are handicaps not accepted? Or did I misunderstand the term "mutilated"?

I have seen Masons in wheelchairs, albeit all of old age.. our building is handicap enabled.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
Never heard of it.

I meant military lodges - plural. (my bad) The rest of your answer covered what I meant, thanks. (starred)


[edit on 4/4/08 by ConspiracyNut23]

reply to post by ConspiracyNut23


The Lodge refers to the brethren while the building is the Temple. As I'm sure you've deduced, back in the day, lodge was often held in local pubs (sounds vaguely appealing ) so obviously a dedicated structure isn't necessary for Masonry.

As for holding lodge in open air, I'm sure that it's done on occasion as there's a Lodge in central Ontario that occasionally has what it calls a quarry Lodge which by necessity would be open-air. Also a couple of years ago, one of the lodges in the Fort Erie area held a fort Lodge in Old Fort Erie. Being an avid amateur historian of the War of 1812, that would've been a really interesting venue to hold Lodge in. Alas and alack, work commitments interfered [dammit!!!! ].

reply to post by Fitzgibbon


That sounds incredibly interesting Fitz.. I would have loved to of been there at Fort Eire for that lodge..

I am missing the World Conference because of work related issues.. I was really looking forward to going and seeing Washington again, especially the tours of the White House especially for Masons. *Sigh* .. I miss all the good stuff. I hope to make it to the Corner Stone Reenactment in Columbus Ohio, where they will reenact the laying of the corner stone at the capital building. The districts even chartered buses to get as many Masons to Columbus as possible.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
reply to post by Fitzgibbon

 

That sounds incredibly interesting Fitz.. I would have loved to of been there at Fort Eire for that lodge..

I am missing the World Conference because of work related issues.. I was really looking forward to going and seeing Washington again, especially the tours of the White House especially for Masons.

I wonder if they have a tour especially for those interested in the War of 1812? Wonder if they'd get all annoyed if we re-enacted this?

.

That said, with the bicentennial of the War upcoming, might I humbly suggest to the Brother Jonathans on ATS to enlighten yourselves on the War of 1812 and put aside the 'Second War of Independence' rot? Not that it doesn't deserve a more balanced perspective in the American mindspace but I think that Yanks need to inform themselves about it in general.

reply to post by Fitzgibbon


Bush might not like his house burning to the ground...so I think the reenactment is out of the question lol.

I agree though on the War of 1812.. No one knows much about it let alone the general American .. I don't remember it being taught in school for more then a passing mention. Actually.. it was not until like 12yrs old touring an old museum on Lake Eire that I really learned anything. Then seeing all the (well the biggest ones) forts on the islands (favorite being Mackinaw (sp?) Island)

reply to post by Rockpuck


To be quite honest, as a Canuck, you guys came into your own (militarily) in the battle of Lundy's Lane. Up to that point, on balance (especially given your numerical superiority then and now) the States got bitchslapped.

Google "those are regulars by god" (quotes included) and you'll see a sea change in States military thinking. That said, the Battle of Put-in Bay ("We have met the enemy and he is ours") was most important as were many small but decisive moments.

The War was most important for different reasons in our respective countries. But you guys really need to recognise that it wasn't the first Viet Nam. Truthfully, it was the point where your government realised how flawed the Minuteman myth really is.

If you want to discuss the War of 1812 offline, feel free to contact me at fitzgibbon at rogers dot calm

Fitz out

Honestely, there is no open discussion from the OP being provided......

This thread has progressed to a mindless RANT of the OP and should be moved the the RANT folder.

[edit on 4/4/2008 by Choronzon]


Mod Note: One Line / Off Topic Post – Please Review This Link.


[edit on 4-4-2008 by elevatedone]

I agree with the person who congratulated the ATS Masons on their patience. You guys are pretty impressive in your patience and you are courteous in general.

I live in a small town in Tennessee. It's in one of the poorest counties in the U.S. We have Masons here, I know for sure that one is a 33 degree Mason. They are all very, very nice men with good, honest characters. They are also just about all of them, poor dirt farmers - nothing elite about them. This is also the buckle of the Bible belt and we just don't have Satanists here. Everyone is a pretty strong Christian here and they do walk the talk; they're always willing to help anyone, even a stranger and they are compassionate as well. Most are pretty non-judgmental.

Truth777, I think it is, well, not very nice of you to start a thread just to bait people. Then you go on to call the Masons on this thread Satanic, child molesters and all sorts of evil things. I really would like to know where you got your information from. It's completely off-base.

I've known Masons all my life and have liked each and every one of them. They have high standards of conduct and good characters.

They also contribute at least 1 million dollars every day to various charities. They also donate time by reading to or visiting veterans. They give of their time and their money. They also have their own research hospital, not funded by any corporation or govt entity. There are also many hospitals they give to, as well as needy veterans.

If there were no Masons in this country, the poor and needy would be in even worse shape than they already are. And thank goodness, there are still men in this world who believe in being chivalrous gentleman - they seem to be a dying breed lately.
My hat is off to all you Masons here, you're good representatives of Masonry, in my book.

reply to post by forestlady


Well others would just say "they are being mind controlled!"

We are not secret either. When I went to PA last, my Cousin new I was a Mason.. but as we drove through the country side through little towns.. he didn't even notice (as we all drive half asleep and thinking of other things anyways right?) that every single town we entered had a wooden sign with the towns badges and guess what. A Masonic emblem with the lodge (lodges in some towns, which I found odd considering some of these town's size) number and inception date.

In his own town there are several places at cross roads where a Masonic sign with an arrow points to where the various lodges are (I counted 3 different lodges).

One was right next door to a Church.

So I am still at a loss as to.. how they are a secret society. I mean, I knew no one when I joined at 20 years old.. if its so secretive, why let strangers in off the streets.

I must be missing the logic.