Originally posted by neformore
What happened to "love thine enemy" and "turn the other cheek" (forgive me if I paraphrase wrongly, its been years since I read the major religious texts)

I'm also going to take the opportunity to respond to this. Neformore, I have seen your comments around ATS and you are the epitome of graciousness and tolerance. However, speaking against propaganda does not make Whammy or the Christians on this thread judgmental, hateful, or 'non-cheek turning.' Should we stop posting our opinions on bigotry because we are Christians? Of course not. I must say, it is frustrating to have such passages thrown in our faces constantly, especially when other passages of the Bible are forgotten.

We can love Dawkins as a fellow human being that God created and at the same time speak out against his material. In fact, the Bible tells us to do such things 'with respect.' That's what we're trying to do here (even if it took a mod to U2U many of us and remind us of the 'respect' part!).

Nothing 'un Christian' about it. He can call us delusional and we can correct him. Such actions align with Biblical teachings. To call him an idiot, moron, nutcase, etc., would be non Christian. Not voicing opinions.

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
It is a lie to say that religion is the cause of the worlds evil. I have demonstrated that effectively with the acts of communist governments who take an atheist stance officially. I don't like lies being disseminated in the name of reason.

Weren't you suggesting earlier in this thread that Atheism was a religion? That might've been somebody else, but I agree with it. If you take that stance, then Dawkins could be more right than you know...

Oh I see, because I am a Christian youthink you can invoke the Bible to say I am not allowed to have an opinion. Well that shows ignorance of the Bible.
Which also says...
"Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases?"1 Corinthians 6:2

I'm sorry, are you suggesting you're a "saint"? Just need to clarify...

Originally posted by Clearskies
There have been LOTS of atheistic 're-education camps'!
Dawkins wouldn't be the first!

What, you mean like universities and stuff?

But I guess this is a reference to communists, again.

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
Oh I see, because I am a Christian youthink you can invoke the Bible to say I am not allowed to have an opinion.

Not at all. If I meant to say that, I'd say it quite clearly. I don't mince my words. I asked a question. There is a difference.

It bothers me because his main idea is to convince people faith causes the worlds violence and weaker members of my faith maybe attacked and disillusioned because of it.

Which faith? Or all of them?

On the this very board ATS, I have been repeatedly called an idiot, a sheep, a moron, intolerant, a bigot, more than I care to recall. I have seen Ashley, and Clearskies, Christian Voice, idle_rocker all treated the same way. Usually with no moderator intervention. I welcome NGCs new tougher stance in the CiR forum. Dawkins lie just reinforces this behavior. It is a conspiracy to destroy peoples faith.

Again, which faith is it a conspiracy to destroy?

Again this moral relativism. I disagree. Should we just ignore hate speech by the KKK. Shouldn't black people just be confident in their worth?
He is speaking with a big megaphone. It deserves a public challenge. It would be irresponsible to ignore it.

The thing is that the KKK went out and beat people/burnt them to death. I don't see that happening to christians. In fact, given that the majority of the western world is comprised of predominently christian democracies, I fail to see how this guy can make much of an impact.

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
When the Bible says "saints" that refers to all Christians. Truly we are all equal
as believers because all fall short and need Christ.

The Catholics have misused the word to mean some are superior, not a biblical idea.

Kind of like you were a Latter Day Saint right?

Yes, I was a Latter Day Saint, and I abhor that term. I also think it's interesting that you say "saints" refers to "all Christians", because not all Christians believe the same thing, not even about Christ. You also say "we are all equal as believers", which leaves out atheists. Are atheists, then, not allowed to judge? And what say you about the "judge not lest ye be judged" scripture in comparison to your one about saints being allowed to judge?

Originally posted by neformore

Not at all. If I meant to say that, I'd say it quite clearly. I don't mince my words. I asked a question. There is a difference.

Ok no problem. Forgive me if i get a little passionate, typing fast.

Which faith? Or all of them?

Indeed, I mentioned the three dominant religions of the world in the OP.

Again, which faith is it a conspiracy to destroy?

All apparently. He makes the claim that all faith is blind. He has since eaten his words as Dr John Lennox schooled him in a public debate.

The thing is that the KKK went out and beat people/burnt them to death. I don't see that happening to christians.

Well I am not using violence either. I am attacking ideas with ideas.

In fact, given that the majority of the western world is comprised of predominently christian democracies, I fail to see how this guy can make much of an impact.

I hope he doesn't. In my own small way I want to diminish it. That's my personal conviction. But over 2 miilion books sold sounds like an impact to me.

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
I hope he doesn't. In my own small way I want to diminish it. That's my personal conviction. But over 2 miilion books sold sounds like an impact to me.

It's talk like this that makes me think the motives of the idea of this conspiracy are less than "denying-ignorance". Why do you care if he makes an impact? If people have free will, let them choose between Dawkins and you and whatever else. You've made your decision, let everyone else get as many choices as possible so they can be sure to make an educated one. Just because you're offended by what somebody says doesn't mean there's a conspiracy going on to destroy your own beliefs.

And like I said, I don't know why you're worried anyway. How many people who aren't already atheists actually read his book? Hardly any I bet...

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
I hope he doesn't. In my own small way I want to diminish it. That's my personal conviction. But over 2 miilion books sold sounds like an impact to me.

Anyway, I'm sure some will be glad to see me extract myself from this thread (ABE: maybe even the forum, heh. I've tried, I can't help myself, deny ignorance is such a great concept), but one last point. I was talking about this the other day with someone, apparently a recent christian book sold something like 24 million. So not such a big impact sales-wise. In fact, I'm sure most were sold to people like myself - those who appreciate Dawkins' writing. Maybe a few of those wavering in faith (in fact, I know a couple who have become atheist/agnostic since reading it).

But, again, the impact socially has been great. It has raised some real discussion, and hopefully atheists in the US can bring themselves out into the open more easily in future. Honestly, truly, that's all I feel it's about. That's why he spends time presenting in the US, and not UK etc. He doesn't need to over here.

Have fun!

ABE: I promised myself I wouldn't make another post here, so to undo - atheists are deemed the most untrustworthy group in the US. They suffer from prejudice and ignorance in many places in the US. Dawkins is our Overton window, he will move the compass towards acceptance and normalisation of the vast majority of atheists, most of whom are not as 'radical' as Dawkins. There are areas where atheism is not an issue in the US as well, but in others atheists are viewed very, very negatively. Consciousness-raising is a good endeavour. We just express an opinion, and leave others to show why our opinions are justifiable.

Indeed, attitudes towards the more politically interfering forms of faith in the US are now becoming more negative according to a recent study. Not really Dawkins' actions, more the behaviour of these groups I feel. It was a good time to raise discussion. And it's worked very well.

Anyway, I'm outta here.

[edit on 28-3-2008 by melatonin]

Originally posted by an3rkist

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
I hope he doesn't. In my own small way I want to diminish it. That's my personal conviction. But over 2 miilion books sold sounds like an impact to me.

It's talk like this that makes me think the motives of the idea of this conspiracy are less than "denying-ignorance". Why do you care if he makes an impact? If people have free will, let them choose between Dawkins and you and whatever else. You've made your decision, let everyone else get as many choices as possible so they can be sure to make an educated one. Just because you're offended by what somebody says doesn't mean there's a conspiracy going on to destroy your own beliefs.

And like I said, I don't know why you're worried anyway. How many people who aren't already atheists actually read his book? Hardly any I bet...

I care because his thesis is a lie. I care because he calls me mentally ill.

I am denying ignorance!!!

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
Why do you care what the Bible says about it, if you don't believe? That was Paul's letter the church in Corinth. He was simply encouraging them to take a stand.

It just seems arrogant to say that you're allowed to judge but atheists aren't... You could maybe say I was a little offended by that statement.

We are actually obligated to speak out for our convictions. I consider it a moral obligation.

Yet your condemning Dawkins for doing the same thing?

[edit on 28/3/08 by an3rkist]

Originally posted by AshleyD
Neformore, I have seen your comments around ATS and you are the epitome of graciousness and tolerance.

Why thank you (flutters eyelashes) I do try....

However, speaking against propaganda does not make Whammy or the Christians on this thread judgmental, hateful, or 'non-cheek turning.' Should we stop posting our opinions on bigotry because we are Christians? Of course not.

I agree. I think I made my point badly. What I was trying to do was offer a bit of advice on how to deal with the criticism and - re-reading it - it just looks all wrong, and it was probably wrong of me to try and do so, because I have my own way of dealing with things and what everyone else chooses to do is down to them

Besides, trying to quote the bible to offer comfort to a committed christian when the last time I read it was 10 years ago is one of the dafter things I've done today

hopefully atheists in the US can bring themselves out into the open more easily in future.

They've been outta the closet for years. to pretend they are still an isolated minority is not the truth of it. I was not a christian at one point in my life, so I personally know this to be true. If they weren't, who is paying for their atheist based educations, music, entertainment, and so on? How'd their books get in public school rooms as required education?
They run all the major institutions of the world, from science to technology to medicine and even many aspects of the military. No one wants them to die, just share the pulpit.

Originally posted by undo
If they weren't, who is paying for their atheist based educations, music, entertainment, and so on?

Who are these people paying for atheists' education? I could sure use some of that, but I have no clue what you're talking about. Atheists are still a minority, though I don't think we're really in any closet. Except when I lived in the Bible Belt, I've never felt I had to hide my atheism. The only reason I hid it there was because I experienced extreme intolerance, both in employment opportunities and more importantly, in my would-be friends.

They run all the major institutions of the world, from science to technology to medicine and even many aspects of the military. No one wants them to die, just share the pulpit.

Do you have any supporting evidence for this? Especially the military thing. In my experience in the military, I was one of maybe three people who was atheist or agnostic in my entire unit. (All four that I served in.)

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
I hope he doesn't. In my own small way I want to diminish it. That's my personal conviction. But over 2 miilion books sold sounds like an impact to me.

Well, if its any comfort at all Mein Kampf has probably had as many copies sold over the years, and we don't live in a world of jackbooted short moustached arayan fantasists.

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
I just reject the notion that faith is the cvause of the worlds violence. I think i have debunked that notion.

Actually you've fallen quite short of it. Despite my constant repeating of it, you've not responded to my theory that faith in one's own beliefs being superior to others' beliefs is the evil at work. This would explain all genocides, throughout history, led by atheists and theists alike, and would, in fact defend the Christian religion from the accusations regarding the Inquisition and such. I'm interested in your thoughts on my theory...

Eh, I'm just going to delete this one. It was just me repeating myself!

[edit on 3/28/2008 by AshleyD]