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I empathize with your viewpoint, and completely understand why a theist of any kind would be offended by Dawkins. However, I think comparing it to people persecuting blacks is somewhat rash. Dawkins isn't proposing we kill anybody, and the whole idea of his theory is that if we get rid of faith we could get rid of a lot of killing.
Originally posted by WraothAscendant
His words are in line with eventual killing.
Originally posted by jimbo999
Nobody is stopping you from teaching your kids whatever you want - or ever has...at home. But equally - we (the majority) equally have the right to ensure that our children are not brain-washed into any type of religious belief in the schools that we pay our taxes towards. Religion should be a personal choice - not something imposed upon from above - wether that be school or government.
I disagree with your assumptions about BW - I've seen his work here on these forums for too long now - and it has all the hallmarks of a religious fanatic....
J.
Originally posted by Spoodily
"God" and religion have NOTHING to do with each other.
Religions use their respective deity and rituals surrounding said deity to turn people away from knowing "God" for themselves.
Any time someone says they are the path to knowing or not knowing "God" is a liar.
"God" is NOT a deity or being within or outside of the universe. "God" is not "in" everything. "God" IS everything, every last littile bit of anything science could ever imagine they could study.
How stupid do people have to be to not understand that you will NEVER be able to step far enough back from "God" to say you've seen and understand it all.
Only "God", which is infinite, will ever experience itself fully.
Their is a selfish attitude about god among the religious that is very self serving. Whenever I hear someone speak about their false deity or lack thereof all I hear is "me this and me that, god's like me and not you or science tells me this therefor god is not real, etc."
[edit on 3/22/2008 by Spoodily]
Originally posted by WraothAscendant
I empathize with your viewpoint, and completely understand why a theist of any kind would be offended by Dawkins. However, I think comparing it to people persecuting blacks is somewhat rash. Dawkins isn't proposing we kill anybody, and the whole idea of his theory is that if we get rid of faith we could get rid of a lot of killing.
His words are in line with eventual killing. He proposes fixing what is at the very basic level a problem with TOLERANCE with intolerance.
To which I ask how in the h*** will that fix it?
It was a quote-mine, and you are still doing it. The statement was that being a weak atheist does not involve claims or denials about the existence of god/godesses/pink unicorns. It says nothing about making claims that belief in god is delusional.
I'm not sure I have heard him call for the abolition of faith. He thinks it's delusional, I can see in his idealistic utopia, such a thing wouldn't exist. But I'm sure he's more pragmatic than that.
Google Video Link |
Yes, people of faith can also do good stuff. No-one said they couldn't. Not really a justifiable reason to take an innocent mind and use fear and punishment to mould a mini-me. If you are so sure of your faith, leave the kids alone. Let them develop a free open mind without placing the fear of hell.
No it's not. It's not the dominant source of morality. It's a book with some rules in, such as don't covet oxes and stuff. Tells us little about many of the ethical issues in the real world.
He says that faith can be a cause of terrorism. But I see the goalposts have shifted.
Depends on the meaning of faith you use. If you use the notion in the bible - belief in things unseen, then yes. If you mean trust, then it need not be.
And therefore I blame jesus for Hitler.
They were atheists. They were also men. In fact, all three had penises, therefore I blame penises for Stalin and Mao.
The major link between Stalin and Mao was communism. Atheism is not the same thing. They were atheists. Sometimes atheists do bad things. Amazingly, so do some theists.
So he wasn't an atheist. You would just like him to be one.
Nothing in darwin's theory suggests marxism. Nothing in atheism suggests marxism. Indeed, Darwin said that it was silly to link socialism to his theory (see below).
Well Karl Marx would beg to differ with you.
"It is commonplace that Marx felt his own work to be the exact parallel of Darwin's. He even wished to dedicate a portion of Das Kapital to the author of The Origin of Species" (Morris 1989, 83 quoting Barzum). Indeed, Marx wished to dedicate parts of his famous book to Darwin but "Darwin 'declined the honor' because, he wrote to Marx, he did not know the work, he did not believe that direct attacks on religion advanced the cause of free thought, and finally because he did not want to upset 'some members of my family'" (Morris 1989, 83 quoting Jorafsky).
emporium.turnpike.net...
That is a myth. A lie continuously circulated around the creationist echo chamber.
The problem for the leftists in the late 19th century and early 20th century was that the rise of Darwinism apparently proved scientifically that the Malthusian doctrine of ‘survival of the fittest’, and hence the laissez faire idea that the leftists detested, was the norm in Nature. Since man was merely an intelligent animal according to their own arguments and the theory of ‘Natural Selection’, they became seriously concerned about the possibility that it also was the norm in society, which would undermine their own ambitions. A more positive side (from the leftist point of view) of Darwinism, however, proved useful in challenging the traditional authorities. Thus, leftists ‘… needed Darwinism for both positive and negative reasons: positively, as an alternative to the traditional forms of authority they were busy disavowing; negatively, as a way of disarming those erecting biological barriers to socialism by lifting the Darwinian mantle for the socialist cause’ (according to [8]). What was needed was a link between Darwin and Marx.
Then, the leftists created the myth that Marx offered to dedicate some volume or edition of Das Kapital to Darwin. The myth was based on nothing more than a letter from Darwin to Edward Avelling—the partner of Marx’s daughter Eleanor—that got mixed in with letters from Marx to Eleanor sometime in the 1890s. In the letter, Darwin politely declines Avelling’s offer to dedicate an atheistic pamphlet to Darwin. Yet, somehow this little incident is turned into the aforementioned myth, and there is still ‘… a profusion of scholarly articles since the mid-1970s [that] have failed to shift [this myth] from popular perceptions’ (see Ref. [8]). Nevertheless, ‘Engels explicitly encouraged socialists to regard Marx and Darwin as complementary’ (see Ref. [8]). For Marx and particularly Engels, it also became important to steal Darwinism from competing brands of socialism in addition to preventing Darwinism from being used against socialism altogether (see for example [6]). All this, and more, took place despite Darwin himself earlier on described the ‘connection between Socialism and Evolution though Natural Selection ‘s a foolish idea”’.. 1 I doubt that Marx and Engels were unaware of Darwin’s own opinions, since they were well informed about many other matters. Thus, it seems clear to me that the Darwinian Left is not derived from an honest analysis of Darwinism but is rather a cynical exploitation of Darwinism both in an internal power struggle among leftists and to provide legitimacy.
The Darwinian Left—from myth to intellectual hijacking, Jan Emblemsvåg, Futures, Vol 36, 10, December 2004, Pages 1117-1121
Your scholarship obviously involves trawling creationista sites, which are taken at face value.
But marx is not Stalin or Mao.
Jesus to bible. Bible to Luther. Luther to Hitler. Hitler to -----------> Dead jews!!!
Because I don't like to physically hurt other people. It's a value statement. I could make an attempt at a logical statement, but that's not really the point here. No need for rules, I have this internal moral compass. If you depend on written instructions to ensure you don't kill others, cool. Please use them.
Squeal like a pig!
Umm, yeah, OK. Squee!
Originally posted by Bigwhammy
An3rkist admitted he would just kill him. So there is no inherent value to human life for him.
Originally posted by Conspiriology
Whammy a fanatic? HA HA HA Hey I agree,, It is MUCH easier to an Atheist where I can sit around, drink beer, fart and get fat, smoke pot do drugs, get laid doing whatever the hell I want, EVEN ON SUNDAY!
Originally posted by an3rkist
reply to post by Bigwhammy
...
A pretty poor analogy. If there's no reason not to kill him, and I don't believe in God, then I must have to kill him!
Sidenote: atheists can be spiritual, too. In my opinion, that whole external source thing was a horrible example.
Originally posted by Bigwhammy
Originally posted by an3rkist
reply to post by Bigwhammy
...
A pretty poor analogy. If there's no reason not to kill him, and I don't believe in God, then I must have to kill him!
Sidenote: atheists can be spiritual, too. In my opinion, that whole external source thing was a horrible example.
You said right here you would kill him. You don't have to. You said you would.
EDIT OK you were not answering the question... Just airbrushing over the issue w with complaints. .
Sorry I though that was your answer... "I must have to kill him! "
Originally posted by Bigwhammy
But if you’re wife goes out of town and you trust that she is not cheating on you. That is belief in things unseen Mel… That is faith. So is faith still BS as you put it. Or is it necessary for a healthy relationship with anyone?
The strategy I see is to make it so foggy no one can see the connections. You won’t face the absolute truth of the unholy trinity of Atheism, Darwinism, and Marxism. They are linked in a multitude of ways. I demonstrated that in the OP. Dialectic opposition and natural selection are similar for a reason. It is not a coincidence. They are related. It is also not a coincidence that the worst murders in history are associated with these ideas. They have everything to do with it.
Why do you have those values? Where did your internal moral compass originate? Perhaps another “poof” ?
See I know you have values, Mel. You were created in the image of God.
Originally posted by HoHoFoo
Originally posted by WraothAscendant
But they answer the spiritual question thusly they are a religion.
It's as simple as that.[edit on 22-3-2008 by WraothAscendant]
1+1=God, is religion and unprovable.
1+1=2 => 1+1God, answers the spiritual question and is provable.
Is 1+1=2 so a religion?
There is no solid evidence about God, so I'm atheist. This is not religion.
Originally posted by HoHoFoo
Originally posted by WraothAscendant
But they answer the spiritual question thusly they are a religion.
It's as simple as that.[edit on 22-3-2008 by WraothAscendant]
1+1=God, is religion and unprovable.
1+1=2 => 1+1God, answers the spiritual question and is provable.
Is 1+1=2 so a religion?
There is no solid evidence about God, so I'm atheist. This is not religion.