Non Christians What If The Bible Is True?

reply to post by Bigwhammy


Which one reveled to you, Jesus or God, I am very interested to know what deity have chosen you to be the instrument of their will and to bring the light to the people in ATS.

reply to post by Bigwhammy


That was in Isaiah, Chapter 23, not Ezekiel. The two prophecies seem to contradict each other.

Originally posted by EYEOFEAGLE
IT SEEMS AS IF YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND ANYTHING. IF YOU DO NOT BELIEVE IN GOD, HOW CAN YOU LOVE? IF YOU DO NOT BELIEVE IN GOD HOW CAN YOU RESPECT? IF YOU DO NOT BELIEVE IN GOD WHY WOULD YOU SEEK PEACE? IF YOU TRULY FEEL THESE THINGS IN YOUR HEART THEN YOU HAVE JUST CONVINCED YOURSELF THAT GOD IS REAL BY THE VERY 3 WORDS THAT YOU SEEK OR MENTION TO OTHERS AS A GESTURE OF COMMUNICATING. HAVE YOU EVER READ THE BIBLE?

EYE OF EAGLE

I don't believe in God, yet I believe in love, peace, and respect. Atheists can be good people, too, believe it or not.

[edit on 7/3/08 by an3rkist]

reply to post by marg6043


I am just a regular born again Christian, I don't hear voices or anything.
But it did change my life. Really it's just as easy as saying this prayer...

(I think it helps if you are at the end of yourself. And give up trying to be God of your own life)


Father, I know that I have broken your laws and my sins have separated me from you. I am truly sorry, and now I want to turn away from my past sinful life toward you. Please forgive me, and help me avoid sinning again. I believe that your son, Jesus Christ died for my sins, was resurrected from the dead, is alive, and hears my prayer. I invite Jesus to become the Lord of my life, to rule and reign in my heart from this day forward. Please send your Holy Spirit to help me obey You, and to do Your will for the rest of my life. In Jesus' name I pray, Amen.


That's all there is to it.

[edit on 3/7/2008 by Bigwhammy]

reply to post by an3rkist


Ezekiel really nailed it. I haven't had time to look at the Isaiah version but he still prophesied it's attack. Note it was sacked and stood for a long time before being completely destroyed by Alexander. Maybe Isaiah was forecasting the first battle? I'm not sure, I'll look into it later. Thanks for the heads up.

Originally posted by an3rkist

I don't believe in God, yet I believe in love, peace, and respect. Atheists can be good people, too, believe it or not.

[edit on 7/3/08 by an3rkist]

Yes, athiests can be good people too. I would like to ask you a question. Do you believe that we are born with an inborn conscience that guides us as we grow?

If not, how would you explain adults who are excessively abused as children, yet still grow to be lovely human beings who have the ability to give love and respect others. I admit, many who are abused as children grow up to be horrible people with many problems, but there are many who seem to live by a conscience they didn't learn from a role model.

Honest question here.

To the Mods, I really don't think this is off-topic, but if you think it is, please advise.

reply to post by idle_rocker


I think "conscience" is a hard thing to define for me. I don't believe in good and evil exactly, or even right and wrong. I think everything everybody does, no matter how good it may be, is for completely selfish reasons. You make choices based on what you think is best for you, no matter if you're helping somebody else or something like that. And I think that's perfectly fine.

However, "having a conscience" implies the consequence of feelings of guilt for "mis-deeds", and I think feelings of guilt are extremely unnatural feelings, born of intolerance in religion, and society as a whole. People do not commit "sins" or crimes because they don't want to, they do them because they do want to. Guilt comes into play when they compare what they've done to the model somebody else has set for them, be it a religion or the government or their parents.

On the flip side, I do not think that harming other human beings is a natural act, and with the exception of survival and self-preservation, I think harming other human beings is completely unwarranted. I do not believe that the average person would harm other people without good reason, (using self-justification, of course). So I do think people have a natural affinity to be "righteous", (to use a biblical term). I think that that has more to do with the fact that it's usually in our own best interest to be good people, though.

Personally, I think it's more of a sin to let other people's beliefs, (including those of the "prophets of old"), dictate how we're going to live our lives, than it is to break any of the Ten Commandments. How can we be true to others if we cannot be true to ourselves? The Buddha said something to the effect of "Believe nothing you read, and nothing you hear, even if I have said it, unless it goes along with your own sense of reason." (Paraphrased)

I believe we should take in as much as we can from every philosophy and religion and science that exists, filter out the things that do not fit our logic, and keep the things that seem reasonable and make sense. This is why I say I think the Bible is a good book, but it is no more so than any other religious text. I take from it what I deem worthy, and the rest is just gibberish.

Fair enough. I'd like to talke more about that but I think it's getting past my bedtime and I think my thoughts are under the bed so to speak right now. So, I'm going to think about this one tomorrow, and give you my answer then. K?

reply to post by idle_rocker

new Testament where a new covenant was given in Jesus.

ok..but first. this statement assumes that there was a first covenant between 'God' and Abraham and his descendants.

this is the crux that I find with the judeo/ christian beliefs. there is NO evidence supporting this claim other than the Bible itself, in particular the Torah. This takes LEAPS of faith to believe..NOT a mustard seed.

there IS plenty of evidence although..logically thinking and historically... that Abraham may have been a hyksos Egyption pharoah. In fact a lot of historians are slowly developing this thesis.

if people (jewish/chistian zionists specifically) can use some critical thinking by takeing the evidence on both sides and wiegh it accordingly maybe we could get some real answers as to how much the Bible is actually historically correct and how much emphasis should be placed on occupying the 'promise land' (where 90% of ALL insanity is currently taking place in the Middle East... which also could have possibly been the instigator of WW2 and hopefully not, but the future location of WW3)

...automatically assuming the Bible is 100% truth without trying to undestand the history behind some of the portrayed ideas will always lead head on into a brick wall.

and I believe (please correct me if i am wrong) this thread is not about Jesus being kind and wonderful...well maybe in part..but more about the accuracy of the Bible. Jesus may very well have been a very humble, in tune w/ 'God' human. But that certainly does not make him God.

Not saying either way but it is just hard for me to give 100% credibility to a text that has obvious contradictions throughout its pages. I can not see A loving son of God wanting to be represented along the likes of some of the notorious Semite conqueror/ killers of the Old Testament.

It would have been interesting if the Christian bible rejected the Torah and claimed itelf its own identity. Then again, that would be odd considering Jesus was Jewish.

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
I see a lot of threads in the CIR forum that are basically Christians this! Christians that! without much of a real conspiracy angle. What's my conspiracy angle?

The greatest conspiracy of all time. : The battle for your immortal soul.

The only conspiracy I see here is you conspiring to preach an off-topic religious message in the CIR forum for the sake of the message and attempting to make it on-topic by tagging on the word "conspiracy". Why should anyone take you seriously when you can so easily display such legerdemain of words? And to be fair it isn't just you. Nearly all of the threads in this forum posted in favor of some christian message or viewpoint are just the same. Tagging on the word conspiracy doesn't make it so.

reply to post by SaadAdam


Yes, I have. It's George Carlin from a stand up routine.

And God bless Joe Pesci.

Originally posted by NewWorldOver

Originally posted by SaadAdam
have any of u guys seen this quote?

"Religion Has Actually Convinced People That Theres An Invisible Man Living In The Sky Who Watches Everything ... blah blah nonsense.

No I've never seen that quote. I don't hang out on atheist blahblah websites.

The man in the cloud idea is not something taught by true spiritualists... it's a cartoonish idea that simpletons subscribe to. And yes, there are alot of simpletons both on the religious and the atheist side...

Actually that is not from an atheist website. It is from a George Carlin stand up routine. If you are interested just search youtube for "george carlin religion."

reply to post by Bigwhammy


And Oedipus traveled to Thebes. Doesn't mean there are carnivorous women waiting to waylay you with riddles en route to Thebes.

reply to post by marg6043


guess i shoulda read what other (this guy/gal) said...woulda saved me all that dam typin! summed up nicely there Marg..star for u!

If the Bible is true then I'll be fine. I love my wife, I love my daughter. I love my neighbors, all of them. I work as hard as I can to provide for my family. I Give food to the homeless and volunteer at a shelter once in a while. I used to work in an ER, and I know most recitful prayers from most major religions. And when people are scared and confused they often recite those religious tomes that mean so much to them, and so little to me. But rather than Say nothing, I'd say it with them, and hope that it gave them comfort.

I don't believe in the god of the bible, or any other god created by the hand of man. In the military I saw people at there absolute worst, drawing on the power of their more primitive survival instincts. But I believe in myself, and I believe in another persons ability to fend for themselves. The greatest achievement of man is self sufficiency. The ability to be free and independent is partially what Jesus preached. "Teach a man to fish". I think if Christ came back today he would be hopelessly ashamed of a lot of his followers.

[edit on 8-3-2008 by aravoth]

[edit on 8-3-2008 by aravoth]

// edit : double post sorry, my computer burped or something....

[edit on 8-3-2008 by aravoth]

Originally posted by Bigwhammy



Ok two versions at least 1000 years apart. Prophecy of the coming Messiah, Yeshua

Below is the King James Version of Isaiah 53:1-3.

[1] Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
[2] For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
[3] He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

Below is the same passage from the Great Isaiah Scroll.

[1] Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
[2] For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor he hath comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire ourselves.
[3] He is despised and rejected of men and man of sorrows, and he knows grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; and despised him, and we esteemed him not.

Isaiah Scroll and the Masoretic Text

So are you sure that those exact words were used?

They seem awfully "King James" to me. I'm not so sure that the people of the Middle East had knowledge of that form of English in their day!




[edit on 3/7/2008 by Bigwhammy]

[edit on 8-3-2008 by AotearoaSon]

I believe in the Bible as the inspired word of God, but I am not what the word Christian defines. First off, the Bible was NOT meant for all men. Second, a person can not become a believer by his own choice. God chose in Himself His people, predestined to the ressurrection into Heaven by Jesus according to His own purposes. Third, you know what in the Bible is literal and what is simplified explanation of occurrences by understanding who the author was, who he was writing to, and the occurrence he writes about. Fourth, the Jews were not chosen by God as His people because they had more faith or were better believers, in fact, the opposite is the truth. God saw that everytime the Jews were left unguided they made a total mockery of God by resorting to idle worship and losing faith in God. The only exceptions to this were Abraham and Moses. God took the Jewish people under His proverbial wing because He knew that, if left to their own desires without His constant guidance, they would be destroyed as a people. Think of this as taking in a stray puppy because you can't bear the thought of it having to face the world by itself. Fifth, nowhere in the Bible is the concept of Hell ever taught as the punishment for non-believers. The word SHAOL is the word most often translated as HELL. Shaol is the Hebrew word for GRAVE. The wages of sin is death without ressurection, not eternity in a place of torture and damnation. God is jealous but HE is not cruel. Sixth, the Catholic Church was founded on a false belief that Christ appointed Peter the first pope when He said, "Thou art Peter, upon this Rock I shall build my church". Christ had just told His followers that anything built on sand could not stand long. Peter asked what Jesus considered he, Peter, to be. Chrisat answered, "Thou art Peter." He then said, "Upon this Rock shall I build my church". Notice the capitalization of the word Rock, a consistant indication of a word pertaining to Jesus. Jesus, not Peter, is the Rock.
The Bible has no contradictions if the Cause/effect of Belief/Salvation is understood correctly. This means that it was written to be the owner's manual of life on Earth for the reborn believer and NOT a roadmap to Heaven for all who want it. When a person feels within himself that something higher and more powerful than himself is acting upon his life, and believes that it is God Himself causing that belief, that is the cause. This is the voice of the Creator speaking to His own chosen. If the person believes and follows the voice a change takes place. He sees himself as powerless to change his own sinfulness and understands that only through forgiveness of his sin by God can he be saved from an eternity without God. He is, thereby, made to be immensely greatful and relieved, actually incapable of any action that could cause eternal redemption. Feeling that he has been treated, quite undeservedly, to a commutation of sentence as a sinner, he lives his life in a more caring, tolerant, and amiable way. Essentially, the old man dies and a new man is born, hence, born again. NOTE: The grace of God was the cause and being a new person was the effect, NOT vice versa as is taught exclusively as the Christian belief.

You might have noticed mine is not the traditional Christian theme. My belief came from Christ Himself. My group that you would call a religion are not protestants or reformists. When Christ had the last supper, He told His followers to "Do this in remembrance of Me". It was the only ritualistic rule or trasitional obligation He ever required of His followers. What He meant was they were to have a "supper" with wine and unleavened bread on the eve of passover. They were to act as a servant to their fellow believers and, as Christ did, wash the feet of the those who also did this in His remebrance. Since that day, the group I belong to have called themselves Baptists (the first to do so) and have never been a part of the Christian or Catholic movements.

Believing as I have related above, this entire thread is useless for its original intent because no one truly reads the Bible as it was written.

BUT, to each their own.

Originally posted by GetOutOfMyRabbitHole
reply to post by SaadAdam

 

Yes, I have. It's George Carlin from a stand up routine.

And God bless Joe Pesci.

he is amazing ay very funny i actualy watched it on youtube very funny video

I'm not a christian,and I have a few rather conflicting ideas about christianity. Firstly,the story is way more than 2000 years old,it's been repeated throughout time,as far as 6000 years ago. (same stories,just name changes) Now,some belive that Jesus is a personification of the sun,which kind of makes sense to me. But I kind of also half believe,that if he really existed as a walking talking being,then he wasn't human,he was an alien. (I've been saying that since i was about 10 years old) The stories of the bible,may well be steeped in truth,based on real events. But they've been so twisted and mistranslated,that the origional stories are long gone.

The bible is a good place to read stories that have some great morals in them.I'm not willing to live my life to the rules of something that probably isn't true. I'm a good person,I don't get into fights,I don't steal and I've never killed anyone (that I can remember) I am a big gayer though,so I'm probably doomed anyway

I don't even know if I've anwered the origional post. I'm a little dazed and hungover and rambling.