Non Christians What If The Bible Is True?

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
It's not selective believing. It's that the Roman Catholics corruppted the translations. There is no word Hell in the real scriptures.. You would have to read my thread.

It's critical thinking and examination. My point is a lot of people think you have to check your brains at the door to get in church and it's simply not true.

Just don't rush to judgment -- you have time -- you are young. More will be revealed to you if you allow the possibility. That's all I would ask.

The Roman Catholic Church is an easy scapegoat. They can be the whipping boy for every criticism of Christianity and the Bible if you like, but it only serves to prove the point that the Bible is not a reliable source for the "word of God". Even if you go all the way back to the earliest, most original copies of each of the Gospels, all you've got is the interpretations of a fallible human. I stand by what I said about the Bible being a book of good moral value, but I find the idea of believing the more extreme claims in it hard to swallow, (such as God being a literal, omnipotent being, or Christ being the Saviour of all mankind, etc.)

Your second paragraph reminded me of a funny bumper sticker I saw, (well I think it's funny): "Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church!"

Yes, I am young, and yes, I will always keep my mind open to allow for possibilities. However, I have been through the possibility of the Bible being the word of God and Christ being the Saviour, and that possibility failed to meet the requirements of my logic and reason. My own critical thinking led me away from that possibility a few years ago after spending most of my life devoutly religious. But I will never purposefully close my mind completely off to the possibilities...

reply to post by NewWorldOver


Interesting that you bring the maleness of God, I have seen over and over the depiction of many specially fundamentalist Christians defining God as a male.

I wonder sometimes how can this be, and what mentality makes people think of a creator or God as a male.

Then you get the Jesus as the divine son of god as per new testament prof that indeed the son of the God of the Israelis was male.

What do you think about this references? to me is more prove that even when the bible was written as the historical accounts of one nation or group of people that latter became Israel they were very much male with the patriarch male figure as the main character.

A male God with a male first son as per Jewish tradition a very important fact.

The bible only divine inspiration if you ask me was the proud maleness of the ones that wrote it.

Another thing why do religous people knock on my door and try to preach religion to me dont thay get it thay are stupid and waisting there time y dont thay go save someone or save paper instead of using it on stupid reason.

I opend my mailbox and i looked @ the paper it said u have sinned what gives any religous person in this world the right to preach bull# @ my door see this is what i dont get leave human life alone stop flushing it with religous bull# of evil.



[edit on 7-3-2008 by SaadAdam]

reply to post by Bigwhammy


Jesus or the Christ as a man, yes he could have been real that is possible a Jewish Rabbi that was not happy with the government at the time, but the messiah of the Jews was hijacked by the new religion called Christianity that decided that if the Jews didn't wanted the messiah they will given him divinity and make it better than the Jewish God.

Now the divine male son of the Jewish male God, that I will take with skepticism any time, too human made for my own personal taste.

Originally posted by an3rkist
The Roman Catholic Church is an easy scapegoat. They can be the whipping boy for every criticism of Christianity and the Bible if you like, but it only serves to prove the point that the Bible is not a reliable source for the "word of God".

That's true. I still believe it is dangerous and simple minded to interpret the Bible literally, or as the word of God.

As human beings, spirituality is a symbolic journey ... the moment we start taking things literally, things go bad. And boy... they have.

Originally posted by marg6043
I wonder sometimes how can this be, and what mentality makes people think of a creator or God as a male.

More literal interpretations I'm sure. We use the word 'he' as a term to describe whatever 'it' is in a personal sense. I suppose we could just as easily use the word 'her'. But in reality, God would be an impersonal, universal force. I do believe he is presented this way symbolically but people are not taught to read symbolism ... if they were, we wouldn't be so easy to manipulate through our subconscious. Using the term 'he' for God is probably one such way to manipulate our subconscious and how we perceive the creator.


[edit on 7-3-2008 by NewWorldOver]

Originally posted by an3rkist
Yes, I am young, and yes, I will always keep my mind open to allow for possibilities. However, I have been through the possibility of the Bible being the word of God and Christ being the Saviour, and that possibility failed to meet the requirements of my logic and reason. My own critical thinking led me away from that possibility a few years ago after spending most of my life devoutly religious. But I will never purposefully close my mind completely off to the possibilities...

_______________________________________________

I am glad that you will keep an open mind. I think we all should. Most of us who were raised in Christian homes, now have different views than we were taught. It has been said that the divine word is given over time. That's one reason why it's so important to study it. You can miss something very easily in the first reading that you'll pick up in the next. And all of a sudden that "light bulb we have faith in" comes on. ding ding

And besides, I think you're kind of a nice young man. Your mama raised you well.

[edit on 3/7/08 by idle_rocker]

Exhibit 5: Fulfilled Prophecy

The 26th chapter of Ezekiel records a prophecy against Tyre.

7For thus says the Lord God: Behold, I will bring from the north upon Tyre Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, a king of kings, with horses and chariots and with horsemen and a host of many people.

8He shall slay with the sword your daughters [the towns and villages] in the level area [on the mainland], and he shall make a fortified wall against you and cast up a siege mound against you and raise up a roof of bucklers and shields as a defense against you.

9And he shall set his battering engines in shock against your walls, and with his axes he will break down your towers.

10Because of the great number of [Nebuchadrezzar's] horses, their dust will cover you; your walls [O Tyre] will shake at the noise of the horsemen and of the wagon wheels and of the chariots, when he enters into your gates as men enter into the city in whose walls there has been made a breach.

11With the hoofs of his horses [Nebuchadrezzar] will trample all your streets; he will slay your people with the sword and your strong pillars or obelisks will fall to the ground.

12And [your adversaries] shall make a spoil of your riches and make booty of your merchandise. And they shall break down your walls and destroy your pleasant houses, and they shall lay the stones and the timber and the very dust from your demolished city out in the midst of the water [between the island and the mainland city site to make a causeway].

13And I will cause the noise of your songs to cease, and the sound of your lyres shall be no more heard.

14And I will make you [Tyre] a [c]bare rock; you shall be a place upon which to spread nets; you shall never be rebuilt, for I the Lord have spoken it, says the Lord God.

15Thus says the Lord God to Tyre: Shall not the isles and coastlands shake at the sound of your fall when the wounded groan, when the slaughter is made in the midst of you?

16Then all the princes of the sea shall come down from their thrones and lay aside their robes and strip off their embroidered garments; they shall clothe themselves with tremblings; they shall sit upon the ground and shall tremble every moment and be astonished at you and appalled.

17They shall take up a lamentation over you and say to you, How you are destroyed and vanished, O renowned city that was won from the seas and inhabited by seafaring men, renowned city that was mighty on the sea, she and her inhabitants who caused their terror to fall upon all who dwell there!

Predictions:

1. That Nebuchadnezzar, King of Babylon, would conquer Tyre (vv. 7-1 1).

2. That the city would be made desolate (v. 4).

3. That it would be thrown into the sea (v. 12).

4. That it would become a place to spread nets upon (v. 14).

5. That its maritime supremacy would cease forever (v. 17).

Guess what? It all was fulfilled.

Here's what actually happened as verified by secular historians.

In 590 BC, Ezekiel makes his prediction.

Four years later, in 586 BC Nebuchadnezzar attacks the coastal city of Tyre.

One year later, in 585 BC most of Tyre's inhabitants move out to a nearby island and rebuild.

17 years after the initial prophecy in 573 BC, Nebuchadnezzar finally destroys the coastal city. That's part one of the prophecy.

Two hundred years after Ezekiel goes to his grave, in 333 BC Alexander the Great attacks the island city by scraping debris from the original coastal city and throwing it into the water to build a land bridge to it.

Centuries later, in AD 1321 the island city is destroyed by Muslims during the Crusades.

Today, the original mainland site of Tyre is as "bare as a rock." There is a city named Tyre, but it exists only as a small fishing village down the coast from the ancient city.

Ezekiel couldn't have guessed that those things would happen. The story of Tyre and others is evidence that God directed the writing of the Bible.

History of Tyre

reply to post by Bigwhammy


Interesting thread, but I can't help but notice that the archeological evidence the OP is using is (obviously) Old Testament related. Since the OP explicitly mentions this in a Christian vein, I would have to counter with the question, where is the same level of archeological veracity (if that is the evidence we're looking for) for the New Testament?

The existence of ancient writings, no matter how ancient, and no matter how closely related they are to the texts of the Old Testament, don't further the argument for the divinity or existence of Jesus of Nazareth one bit.

Originally posted by marg6043
reply to post by Bigwhammy

 

Jesus or the Christ as a man, yes he could have been real that is possible a Jewish Rabbi that was not happy with the government at the time, but the messiah of the Jews was hijacked by the new religion called Christianity that decided that if the Jews didn't wanted the messiah they will given him divinity and make it better than the Jewish God.

Now the divine male son of the Jewish male God, that I will take with skepticism any time, too human made for my own personal taste.

We have to remember that men were venerated during these times by all cultures, not just the jewish culture. "He" would therefore, be an obvious word to use in those times, since only males could be kings and leaders of state. However, I don't think the he/she factor is important. God is spirit, and as so, does not have to be male or female.

reply to post by NewWorldOver


Thanks I definitely agree with the later part of your post.

Now one thing that the author of the thread ignored when he brought his great archaeological references to the Ebla Kindom is that while every time a new discovery in the middle east is unearthed the religious groups run to make links to the bible as to cement the need to prove that is real to themselves.

Occurs the bible has historical value that should never come into question.

But also the discovery of the Ebla kindom also bring other side regarding the people of the time that has been ignored.

The historical accounts no only mention cities that can be related to the bible accounts but not with the same lore.

What the Tablets Are All About

There are literary texts with mythological backgrounds, incantations, collections of proverbs, and hymns to various deities. Rituals associated with the gods are referred to, many of these gods being known in Babylonian literature of a later period. These include Enki, Enlil, Utu, lnana, Tiamut, Marduk and Nadu. The god of the city of Kish is also referred to.

Most of the tablets deal with economic matters, tariffs, receipts, and other commercial dealings. However, other matters such as offerings to the gods are also dealt with

www.icr.org...

Interesting that the information and a discovery that will bring more light to how the people in the area lived and thrived is taken over be the religious zealots.






[edit on 7-3-2008 by marg6043]

reply to post by Bigwhammy


But why does Isaiah tell a slightly different story? (Isaiah, Chapter 23)

"beginning in verse 13, Isaiah clearly said that the destruction of Tyre would be only temporary, not permanent:

Look at the land of the Chaldeans! This is the people; it was not Assyria. They destined Tyre for wild animals. They erected their siege towers, they tore down her palaces, they made her a ruin. Wail, O ships of Tarshish, for your fortress is destroyed. From that day Tyre will be forgotten for seventy years, the lifetime of one king. At the end of seventy years, it will happen to Tyre as in the song about the prostitute: Take a harp, go about the city, you forgotten prostitute! Make sweet melody, sing many songs, that you may be remembered. At the end of seventy years, Yahweh will visit Tyre, and she will return to her trade, and will prostitute herself with all the kingdoms of the world on the face of the earth. Her merchandise and her wages will be dedicated to Yahweh; her profits will not be stored or hoarded, but her merchandise will supply abundant food and fine clothing for those who live in the presence of Yahweh"

Not my own words, but from a biased but very intelligent source, in my opinion. It's a valid point methinks.

[edit on 7/3/08 by an3rkist]

reply to post by PragueSpring


Well the old testament prophecies that have came true are the most amazing to me.

The existence of Jesus is not really even a serious question because there is so much extra Biblical documentation. All you have to do is look. If you have seriously have fallen from some the joke scholarship that says he didn't exist the look at this website

The Divine Evidence

Now no ones going to prove to you he is the Son of God. But Jesus himself will prove it to you. If you ask him to. Seriously.

Anyone can try it as an experiment. Just try what do you have to lose?
Pray and ask him to reveal himself to you. As sincerely as you can muster.

I did it - and I was still critical - and more was revealed....

it's an inside job.






[edit on 3/7/2008 by Bigwhammy]

reply to post by PragueSpring


Exactly, that is my point, also, after further review of the link and other sources I am fascinated by the fact that this is indeed a great discovery, but beside mentioning cities that has been know to be part of the history of the time, it doesn't say anything else but the hyper link by religious people to the bible.

But that is the least of my worries, I can not wait to see more information on the Ebla Kingdom.

reply to post by SaadAdam


IT SEEMS AS IF YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND ANYTHING. IF YOU DO NOT BELIEVE IN GOD, HOW CAN YOU LOVE? IF YOU DO NOT BELIEVE IN GOD HOW CAN YOU RESPECT? IF YOU DO NOT BELIEVE IN GOD WHY WOULD YOU SEEK PEACE? IF YOU TRULY FEEL THESE THINGS IN YOUR HEART THEN YOU HAVE JUST CONVINCED YOURSELF THAT GOD IS REAL BY THE VERY 3 WORDS THAT YOU SEEK OR MENTION TO OTHERS AS A GESTURE OF COMMUNICATING. HAVE YOU EVER READ THE BIBLE?

EYE OF EAGLE

reply to post by an3rkist


13And I will cause the noise of your songs to cease, and the sound of your lyres shall be no more heard.

what part of "shall no more be heard" sounds temporary to you?

reply to post by Bigwhammy


I am very familiar with your sources on the Jesus, yes it may have been many such men that were against the situation of the Jews and the government at the time, he could have been a rebel an anti government trying to unified his people to fight back.

But the sources no even one prove that this man or men were anything but divine, only the new testament brings that issue.

What will be of Christianity without the bible? nothing.

reply to post by marg6043


There are some who believe that Enlil is actually God and that Enki was the serpent that beguilded Eve in the garden. I haven't researched this enough to really have an opinion, but just thought I would throw that in there since you had an interest in the article.

Enlil and Enki were the gods referred to in the Sumerian texts, I believe. I've not looked at any of that in a very long time. But it seems to me there are a lot of what could be described as "cross-references" in most all the ancient texts.

reply to post by marg6043


Of course you have to pray and ask him to reveal himself to you if you want proof of his divinity.

When I did it I was only half sincere, sort of like an experiment. He revealed himself to me. It's an inside job. I can't convince anyone absolutley. But he can. All I'm doing is pointing out it's worth investigation.

Don't base your opinion on the weak scholarship of zeigeist or some Youtube crap that takes everything out of context.

If you look and say well there could possibly be something to this... maybe
and then pray - you won't explode - the atheist police won't arrest you

That's the only way short of death, then we'll all have the definitive answer.
Sorry can't help you there.

Originally posted by marg6043
reply to post by Bigwhammy

 

I am very familiar with your sources on the Jesus, yes it may have been many such men that were against the situation of the Jews and the government at the time, he could have been a rebel an anti government trying to unified his people to fight back.

But the sources no even one prove that this man or men were anything but divine, only the new testament brings that issue.

What will be of Christianity without the bible? nothing.

Yes that's true. Without the Bible there would be no Christianity. But every religion has its texts, so no religion would exist without its texts.

As you say, the New Testament is the only part that refers to Jesus as being divine in that exact meaning of the word, but the Old Testament foreshadows his coming and his kingship. And his kingship, is not as being a king of this world. It is God's kingdom.

reply to post by idle_rocker


It was many meanings to the references at the time, even today today the problems with ancient language is that the meanings has been lost for ever.

The Sumerian language lack of vowels made very hard to decipher the meaning of the words, when you add a vowel it will change the meaning of the original word completely.

The Elba tablets are in ancient Sumerian and Semitic, both languages are very difficult to read.

Sumerian Lexicon

www.sumerian.org...