Christians...how do you justify all of this?

reply to post by LoneWeasel



yeah i copied it...from the dictionary...go figure....

show me the evidence of the existence of jesus . not some 2nd or 3rd hand account from 50 years after his death...

Originally posted by weedwhacker
reply to post by clemonte

 

clemonte, more 'circular' reasoning, or really desperate attempts to try to justify obvious contradictions written into the bible.

corrected spelling, trying to 'deny ignorance'...

[edit on 7-3-2008 by weedwhacker]

Your reply show a tinge of the 'ego' I am talking about. My comments are nothing to do with protecting the Bible, they are just general comment if you can drop the ego and look at them again(pg 4). When someone hates/disagree something, they tend to twist views to their own liking in order to satisfy the ego of damning their object of hate.

In fact in my younger days, I abhor(yeah strong word) Christianity. So many hypocrisy, so many trying to convert you in a nonsensical way, so many trying to rip of your salary.So many so manys. But it doesn't mean Christians as a whole is bad or not-truth. Eg, many will no doubt hate all Nazis for what they do. But thinking carefully it is not them for who they are that commit the atrocities, it is the sick mindset of Hitler that is drilled into them and negatives spread fast like wildfires. No one is strong enough at that time to stop the powerful evil root, which is Hitler's mindset/ego of world domination. Personally, I feel we should not blame the whole of Nazis people, blame it on the ego and their inability to realize it.

But with age and experiences, you tend to start looking at positives instead of indulging in negatives. Of course questioning negatives promotes positives but many love to indulge in negatives and not questioning. With what mindset are you bringing up the negatives? To seek the truth or confirm the negatives? With what mind you set out, thus the result you will get.

At least for me I start to realise all religions have their truth. They are just different paths to truth. Truth is perfect but human minds aren't. This is where EGO comes into play, human will start to interpret truth to their OWN advantage. Observe egolessly yourself whenever you try so hard to damn other religions/ideas/path/lifestyles, you are subconsciously trying to seek security that yours is the only correct one and you are well on your way. Whenver you badmouth/backstab others, you are not genuinely wanting to
make that person feel bad, you are just feeding this EGO to make yourself feel good and secure which is illusionary. Truth is universal, you don't separate yourself from others, you bring yourself and help others to this ONESS.

Interesting that you mention my comments are circular,in fact I honestly think it is! Spirituality should not be black and white, allow gray areas and we will learn more. I think Jesus mentioned that he=God=holy spirit(I am no Bible reader) and that statement seems like a very wise circular sutra to me

reply to post by BlackOps719



The old testament has nothing to do with what Christians believe other than as a history of where we come from, the old testament shows us that we are siners and cannot keep the laws of God on our own, therefore have no personal claim to rightousness. Christians come to God through Faith not works, all other religions in the world believe that rightousness comes from living right under our own power and earning our way in to Gods good Grace, by nature we are sinners and cannot free ourselves from sin.

Link

Christians - By Maya Angelou

When I say... "I am a Christian" I'm not shouting "I'm clean livin'." I'm whispering "I was lost, Now I'm found and forgiven."
When I say... "I am a Christian" I don't speak of this with pride. I'm confessing that I stumble and need Christ to be my guide.
When I say... "I am a Christian" I'm not trying to be strong. I'm professing that I'm weak And need His strength to carry on.
When I say... "I am a Christian" I'm not bragging of success. I'm admitting I have failed And need God to clean my mess.
When I say... "I am a Christian" I'm not claiming to be perfect, My flaws are far too visible But, God believes I am worth it.
When I say... "I am a Christian" I still feel the sting of pain. I have my share of heartaches So I call upon His name.
When I say... "I am a Christian" I'm not holier than thou, I'm just a simple sinner Who received God's good grace, somehow!

BTW the first time I read the bible, I saw God as a slaughterhouse diety, it took 2 more readings of the whole bible (Old and New Testaments) to make some of the connections, I am still learning. Good Post, Flagged and Stared.
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[edit on 7/3/2008 by Sauron]

[edit on 7-3-2008 by RedmoonMWC]

Originally posted by Freakaloin
delusion- a fixed false belief that is resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact.

that sounds about right. isn't that what you christians think about muslims beliefs? or no? what about mormons? hindus?

so jesus (of which there is no evidence of existing)came down and said god has decided to change his mind about some things i told moses(no evidence of him either)isn't delusional? uhm...ok!

You make an enormous mistake in your assertion that proof is necessary for a belief into Christianity. This is Christianity, not Islam. The discrepancies between the religions? Enormous. Islam places no value on faith, insofar as to state that proof of Allah exists within all creation, so faith is unnecessary. Christianity, on the other hand, requires faith.

I would suggest reading Kierkegaard, as I am. Though, he is a complex read, so I would suppose if you loked for summaries of his work you could find them. He explains faith in a wonderful manner, and indeed is a brilliant author and mind.

Doubt is the prerequisite of faith. As, of course, to be able to have faith in something means that you can doubt it. Thus, in a challenge of my faith I have read massive amounts of anti-Christian writings, be it the God Delusion by Richard Dawkins, or any other number of scientific papers, books, etc. And yet not one has provided me a compelling reason to abandon a Christian frame of thought. Why? Faith. Proof is the antithesis of faith, for to have proof would undermine the necessitation of faith, and Christianity, without faith, is nothing. Good works are meaningless, save for a means to give those weak in faith confidence in their spiritual life. I believe Romans may cover this, on disputable matters within the church. (Romans 14).

As has been cited previously, we can not possibly understand the wisdom of an omniscient/omnipotent God. Infinite wisdom. In this same fashion, there are reasons why there is not large amounts of proof (There is actually large confirmation of the existence of Christ/Apostles in Roman history, you need only look). Moreover, even without physical evidence, inconclusive to both sides of religion, it is still unnecessary. Be it by the argument from the cosmos, the argument from the transcendent, or the argument from moral order. (A divinely opposed moral order, by the way. Check out Thus Spoke Zarathustra by Friedrich Nietzsche, for that)

The argument from the cosmos, being that the Big Bang is a physics impossibility, and there must have been an original cause. The argument from the transcendent, in which most to all aspects of human existence are meaningless without the existence of the God from Christianity. Or the argument from moral order, in which as morals are not self-evident, they have been imposed under divine command, by that of the Christian God.

These are thoughts to consider, confirmations, so to speak, of Christian beliefs and their ideology. But I remind you, these are those out of Christianity, not Judaism, the New testament predicates Christianity.

Thank you for your reply.

I'm glad that you are aware of the broken logic of the Bible. Logic that, in your own words, is not to comprehend by humans. So for what audience was the Bible written?

Anyway, I'm fully aware that one has to believe with blind faith. Fortunately my God has given me eyes to see ...

Originally posted by LDragonFire
The video is based on the Old Testament. I think its easy for all to see that this older part of the bible is barbaric, and Not so Perfect.

The New Testament is where the religion of love comes into play. Or to say it another way, to correct the imperfect teachings of the Old Testament.

Honestly, and many take offense to this, but the only redeemable thing from the Old Testament is the Ten Commandments. The New Testament, gospel of Christ, gives people a truer picture of what the TRUE God is like. Now, I am not going to get into my thoughts about the Old Testament here because I think most people know where I stand just by my implications in previous posts about the OT... However, that is my word.

TRUTH HURTS

you do know most of what jesus said in the bible is metaphoric, right? in fact most of the bible is metaphoric. it s just christians tak it literally.

And apperantly the dude in the video.

reply to post by Freakaloin


Be honest with yourself, the fact of the matter is, regardless of what proof might be presented to you, no matter how convincing it might be, just by your statement(s) alone, it shows the hardness of your heart, and, if something was presented to you, you would defend against that proof even more, correct?

These issues of Christians attempting to prove anything to the unbelieving, where Christ is concerned, is like Moses trying to convince Pharaoh of God. Any proof Moses laid before Pharaoh , it only hardened Pharaoh’s heart the more. The true issue at hand is not if Christ exists or doesn’t exist, it’s for you to determine what has hardened your heart to the extent it is. Once that issue is dealt with, then you can understand how it is, one can believe without seeing and know, without evidence of proof, that Christ indeed does exist and makes Himself known to those who have not closed their hearts toward Him.

[edit on 7-3-2008 by jdposey]

Originally posted by Freakaloin
reply to post by LoneWeasel

 

yeah i copied it...from the dictionary...go figure....

show me the evidence of the existence of jesus . not some 2nd or 3rd hand account from 50 years after his death...

Thanks for your quick reply - I note however that in your haste you have failed to engage with any of the points I made in my last post.

1) I'm trying to "go figure" your dictionary definition - the point is I have offered you an alternative definition, for the word "faith". It's true that the two definitions contradict one another. You say people are delusional, I say they have faith. I think you're wrong because it's my view that faith is entirely justified in the absence of all the answers coming from anywhere or anyone else.

My faith in God is inspired largely by the fact that the origins of the universe are a mystery, for example. It seems to me logical that there is a reason for the existence of the universe. I don't know what that reason is, and that is what inspires my faith. You can suggest I am wrong - but you aren't offering an alternative answer by doing so, so I reserve the right to call your suggestion an opinion, not a fact.

My Christian faith is based somewhat loosely around what I consider to be the good teachings of the new testament. I freely admit that I pick and choose what I believe in. I don't see the problem with that. I don't live my life according to the bible. I live my life (or try to) according to what I think is good, or right, in the bible. I ignore the bits I don't agree with. Despite picking and choosing I consider myself a Christian because I believe in God and the story of Jesus. I defy anyone to tell me I'm not a Christian as a result of what I choose to believe in.

I would ask you what exactly is your problem with what I believe in, based on the above? I further ask you, if you can't engage intellectually with my point of view, that you at least consider engaging with it respectfully. Until such time as you can demonstrate that you have all the answers, I would suggest you find more humility.

2) I've already observed that what you really mean is that there is no evidence of the existence of Jesus who was the son of God.

However, since you persist in making the point...There is evidence of a Jesus of Nazareth as an historical figure. Not proof, but evidence. Anecdotal writings from 50 years after the death of Jesus are still evidence. You can't redefine the word evidence (since you're keen on the dictionary: A thing or things helpful in forming a conclusion or judgment) simply because you don't believe it to be true. Here's a summary of some of the evidence: link.

I repeat my previous suggestion that you read my post on page 5 and pacificwind's post on page 6 and attempt to engage with the points we make there. You've made your point that you think faith is delusional - feel free to make it again if you like but, again, I'm not sure what you're adding to the debate by doing so.

LW

Originally posted by RedmoonMWC
reply to post by BlackOps719

 

Link

Christians - By Maya Angelou

When I say... "I am a Christian" I'm not shouting "I'm clean livin'." I'm whispering "I was lost, Now I'm found and forgiven."
When I say... "I am a Christian" I don't speak of this with pride. I'm confessing that I stumble and need Christ to be my guide.
When I say... "I am a Christian" I'm not trying to be strong. I'm professing that I'm weak And need His strength to carry on.
When I say... "I am a Christian" I'm not bragging of success. I'm admitting I have failed And need God to clean my mess.
When I say... "I am a Christian" I'm not claiming to be perfect, My flaws are far too visible But, God believes I am worth it.
When I say... "I am a Christian" I still feel the sting of pain. I have my share of heartaches So I call upon His name.
When I say... "I am a Christian" I'm not holier than thou, I'm just a simple sinner Who received God's good grace, somehow!

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[edit on 7/3/2008 by Sauron]

I noticed christianity is just a way of making people think some almighty power is taking all their weight off their shoulders. Making people think they can live happy and fat while GOD does all the work.


Side note. on the sabbath, christans go to church, where preists and other members of the church are WORKING! Some people also consider it work to go to church.

Originally posted by psychedeliack
You create your own hell. If you believe in it, you go there. If you know the truth, it does not exist any more than the next idea chosen by the will to resonate in the mind/soul whatever.

Christianity is very heavily drowned by personal opinion these days rather than the actual essence it carried as when Jesus spoke of what he spoke of.
A lot of christians totally disagree with me and those who share such beliefs, Iv'e even been told I'm not a Christian!

This is a more intelligent outlook in my opinion. Our minds are powerful which open endless possibilities. I am not saying if you think it is it WILL. I am saying if you think it is it MIGHT. How many will think that traveling by air is possible in ancient times? Luckily due to open-minded human, we got the airplanes working. Hence if you think there is hell, you are given hell a chance to exist and the sufferer is no other than yourself. This is why all sages prompt us to cleanse our minds and have wholesome thoughts.

Christianity is given a not-needed label. How many times we heard churches telling us that in order to be a 'true' Christian, you have to be so and so. To me, truth is timeless/boundless and needs no label. Label is only given to help understanding in our material earthly world. Maybe Jesus sounded strong/harsh in his teachings is due to our egos attaching to these meaningless labels.

I feel in order to learn spiritually one must understand the names/labels of Christians/Buddhists/Hindis are just labels and nothing more. The more you are trying to identify with these labels, the further away you are from truth since I hope GOD will not want to separate people but unify them through different channels for realization.

Originally posted by shiman

Originally posted by RedmoonMWC
reply to post by BlackOps719

 

I noticed christianity is just a way of making people think some almighty power is taking all their weight off their shoulders. Making people think they can live happy and fat while GOD does all the work.


Side note. on the sabbath, christans go to church, where preists and other members of the church are WORKING!

Some people also consider it work to go to church.

In my experience God works through people to accomplish "his" goals.
Most Christians do not go to church on the sabbath, the sabbath is saturday, most christians worship on sunday.

reply to post by Freakaloin


I watched the video. The questions raised are some of the first questions I raised when I became interested in Christianity.

The best I can come up with so far as defense of the bible would be that it contained a code of law....barbaric though it was. The code allowed for impartial judgment as opposed to some whim of some king or ruler. It was a long way from where we are now (maybe) but it was a start.

With the appearance of Jesus Christ, we (Western Civilization) began to evolve into a more accepting society. His interpretation of the law (Torah) was radical and of course he was killed. Evidence of historical Christ follows the same line of proof as say evidence of Shakespeare. There is about the same amount of proof showing the existence of Shakespeare as there is evidence of Christ Jesus.

The biggest proof is simply the change in philosophy before and after historical Jesus. Very dramatic change.

Some ideas such as Agape began to take old as well as ideas of peaceful resistance.

This may not measure up to what you want so far as proof but I would explore some ideas in what makes up Western ideas.

If we measure our ideas in relation to Eastern ideas I see many similes.

Look at the very tall ancient Chinese man...Confucius. Older then Christ yet he began to incorporate similar ideas.

If you would like to read apologetic works in defense of Western civilization start with C.S. Lewis. Problem with Pain…Mere Christianity…or read St. Augustine. The latter shows the divide of Western ideas and Eastern Orthodox (Russia) ideas.

It matters not to me if you believe in Christ…but looking into the roots of Western Civilization may invoke other realities.

reply to post by LoneWeasel


ok but i think your belief is delusional imo. i would hope if i believed in a flying spaghetti monster you would think my belief was delusional as well.

no, there is no evidence of a historic jesus...read this...goes much more into detail then the link you provided...

www.atheistnetwork.com...

Many Christians will agree that the old testament is barbaric and say "just focus on the new"... but the reason the old testament is in there, is because prophecies within supposedly "prove" that Jesus was the saviour. The old testament justifies the new.

And you can't simply ignore the atrocities committed in the name of the "almighty" back in those times... assuming any of those stories are real at all.

It's a primitive myth written by men (no literally, men, not women... otherwise you wouldn't have the whole subservient wife crap). It's time to move beyond that and embrace logic and reason. Faith shouldn't be accepted so easily from sentient beings who can do better.

reply to post by BlackOps719


If I am going to answer all your questions in this thread, explaining every details in every angle with matching reference, I am afraid it's going to take a lot of time & pages of this forum.

Judging from your words, it seems that you don't believe the bible. I think I even saw the word B.S. there.

Yet they choose to ignore the fire and brimstone, the death and murder and carnage that is in the SAME BOOK. You can't have one without the other. All of this talk of reading between the lines and understanding what context certain parts are written in is B.S.

I am sorry to say but it seems that you really don’t have a complete understanding of the bible. Do you think that the bible (new & old testament ) were compiled in just one day? Did you even check the time involved between the books? Just from Genesis to Psalm for example, do you have any idea how many years have passed in between the two books?

People talk about the bible as one book or same book, yet in reality, it's a compilation of many books thru generations. Do you think that the time they wrote the book of Genesis,.. the book of revelation already existed? No.

In the book of Revelation (New testament) there is a warning about a consequence of adding or removing words to the prophecy of this book. (Book of revelation, not the whole bible)

Some people who read the book of revelation in that part already thought that it was referring to the WHOLE BOOK of bible. (Just because revelation is in th elast page) Yet it is not. It is only referring to that particular book of revelation.

As you can see, there is so much thing to tackle here.

And lastly, if you think that the bible is a bad reference an unbelievable piece of a book, what makes you think that a 10 minute You tube video is more believable & accurate source or reference?


[edit on 7-3-2008 by searching_for_truth]

[edit on 7-3-2008 by searching_for_truth]

Originally posted by Freakaloin

www.atheistnetwork.com...

There are those who would note without surprise that I gave you a link to a Christian website and you give me one to the atheist network...

It's fine by me if you view what I believe as delusional. I don't like comments like the spaghetti comparison because they are a deliberate attempt to mock what I hold dear, and I don't think that's necessary.

For what it's worth my own beliefs are vague. I'm not a good Christian. I believe that someone or something made the Universe. I call that someone/sometihng God. I'm not clear on whether God's presence is a kindly one or not. I have faith that it is - largely because I am fortunate enough to have experienced a positive life which I am grateul for. I believe in the teachings of Christ as a good model for living. I find that if I follow them, I tend to get along OK with most people, and vice versa - that seems to me to be a reasonable way of living my life, and far from delusional. All of that doctrine, along with much much more, some of which I don't believe in, is contained within the pages of the bible. For that reason, I support the existence and study of the bible. And I support a Christian life because it seems to me it is a positive influence on the world.

I find it hard to believe that there is anything you can object to in any of that. But more pertinently I don't see what purpose is served by belittling it - you aren't going to sway me - and you don't answer the questions posed by the OP...

LW

reply to post by Freakaloin


I read your atheist link. The arguments placed are rehashed with some being misplaced. Some arguments ARE valid in my opinion.

If you begin at higher critical studies of New Testament texts it can bring you to a tipping point in faith as I believe Hawkins may be at. Or it can bring you into the opposite direction...that of a studied believer.

For example he brought up the idea from the book of Acts in which Kirby examines James, the brother of Christ. When you look at the evidence you simply arrive at the same place the moderator and "Kirby" arrive at...
Different opinions. Most biblical scholars do.

Some very prominent scholars have went from being Christians to Atheist after years of looking at Biblical Evidence and finding that they logically arrive back at square one. Square one being simple "Faith in Christ".

Others have embraced Christ.

Imagine, A Doctor of Divinity, years of study, losing a genuine faith in Christ as he honestly looks at the bible and the world. I know of people like this.

Also the...same proof...different interpretaion of the same proof...and they have reembraced simple faith in Christ. Their new faith being much more accepting then some radical fundamental faith that is now very popular. I know people like this.

To conclude, you must know that many of our "historical" assumptions of any classical person such as Plato, Aristotle, many Caesars, Alexander the Great etc, Etc have less or very little more proof then the historical record of Christ. If you dismiss Christ you may need to dismiss many classic historical persons in the same light.




[edit on 7-3-2008 by whiteraven]

reply to post by searching_for_truth


If you were to read the quote that you just posted, you would clearly see that the B.S. that I was referring to is the stance made by many Christians that the New testament is worthwhile and accurate, while the Old testament is not modern Christian friendly and supports no agenda, so in turn is no longer applicable. I did not call Christianity or it's teachings B.S. I just have a hard time understanding why one book is literal and one book is not, when they were written both from the words of God.


How can people deny one when it is directly responsible for the other? I guess the old testament is like that ugly ex wife that everyone tries their best to ignore, no matter how hard you try you can't make it go away and denying it's existence or downplaying it's role in your religion is absurd.


How can one book be fiction and one be fact? How can one book of the bible be dismissed and written off by Christians as a book of metaphors, while simultaneously giving creedence to the new testament? And again I would say that if you are picking and choosing through Gods work then you are being a hippocrite. I will admit that I am not as versed in the scripture as some on ATS, but I am familiar enough to know that what a lot of you are saying just doesn't sit well and is not based in reality.

reply to post by BlackOps719


A lot of how much weight should be attached to each scripture is determined by context, that is, by what evidence we have surrounding the verse itself. For instance, we do have clear evidence from the New Testament that the Old Testament is part of an old covenant, as previous posters have demonstrated.