Christians...how do you justify all of this?

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posted on Mar, 7 2008 @ 06:54 AM
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I have really enjoyed reading everyone's posts. I really envy the people who can believe, the people who trust blindly - and I'm not being cheeky, I am serious.

In my teens I experimented with a few differnt interpetaions of god. I loved the peace and security that being a "christian" afforded me.

But then..I started to ask questions. No one could ever give me adequet answers. I prayed and fasted and studied the bible, but once the questions began it was all down hill from there for me.

According to some Christains, I am saved. According to others only my works will save me - they both have verses to back up their belief. Some say the fact that I backslid proves that I was never saved in the first place..on and on it goes.

My main gripe with christianity ( this is the religion I know most about ) is the fact that most Christians aren't "christ-like".

You can use the bible to justify just about any atrocity yo can think of. A real Christian wouldn't though. The takes me to the belief that jesus was probably the only real christian that ever lived.

I respect all religions but choose not to practice any.




posted on Mar, 7 2008 @ 06:56 AM
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Originally posted by Nola213
I've seen the video before, and yes, taken literally, (which the bible should be), it IS repulsive.

Religion is the oldest con in the world. It preys on peoples fears, uses some simple tricks and illusions to make thier frontman(Jesus, for Chistians, 12 disciples, more like stagehands, probably even pickpocketed the crowd during the show, I mean services.

These men are meant to be seen as more than human, and they can frighten you, and threaten to send you to hell to burn for eternatiy unless you give them money.


Dude, why are you going to make a mule (or is that donkey? whichever is an ass?) out of yourself by saying things you know nothing about, that aren't even true for that matter? lol. It looks like you have umped onto the anti-Chrstian bandwagon, let me remind you though that you need to be a little better at your verbal discourse, otherwise no one will be influenced by you.

The Bible isn't repulsive, the Old Testament is. I am going to drill this through your heads until kingdom come! loll. It sure is convenient, for you to pick and choose one book of the Old Testament and claim the entire Bible, of a religion that didn't even exist on Earth when the Old Testament was written, is violent and repulsive. That is complete crap .. only the Old Testament!

Religion does not work because of fear. I fear death like any man whether he admit it or not, but it is not the promise of an afterlife that makes me a Christian. As far as im concerned, there might not be an afterlife.. whatsoever... and it could be eternal darkness, or as if you're asleep except forever. I don't know what it is like, yet. This fear does not make me Christian, I had this fear yet actively denounced Jesus regularly all through my teenage years. So when I became Christian one day, I was just siting in my room minding my business, and

I STILL say that Jesus is not God, nor his blood Son, but rather, his "adopted human son" with whom he imbued certain abilities and powers, but they only worked when God decided to allow them to work you see. Otherwise like so many smart-arses say, "He would've made the cross break and levitate away, off toward Galilee", lol. But..alas, he could not. This shows that in my strong opinion Jesus was a human man, not an alien half breed, not God in the flesh, not an Angel morphed into the appearance of a man, none of these. He was a human being like you and me, except God hooked him up quite thoroughly if you ask me. When Jesus performed miracles. it was God who empowered Jesus in-the-moment to lay hands or whatever it was that he was doing, I do not believe Jesus had the power innately to perfom such feats, it was always divine providence,



posted on Mar, 7 2008 @ 07:04 AM
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Originally posted by theendisnear69

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by theendisnear69
 


...But the bible says if they didn't carry out the orders exactly as said, they would be killed. Look at the israelite priests for example, if they did not have the exactly specified by god clothing on when they went into the temple to worship and pray they would be killed or stoned...


Yeah, they used to tie a rope around the Priests waist so they could drag them out of the temple if God struck them dead for doing something wrong.



posted on Mar, 7 2008 @ 07:10 AM
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Originally posted by Nola213


I STILL say that Jesus is not God, ......... This shows that in my strong opinion Jesus was a human man, not an alien half breed, not God in the flesh, not an Angel morphed into the appearance of a man, none of these. He was a human being like you and me, except God hooked him up quite thoroughly if you ask me.


Most American traditional Christians would say you are not a Christain if you espouse that belief. One of the tenents of their faith is that Jesus was God in human form. Not just a really good guy.

This is my beef, really. This guy who clearly believes - kudos to you - wouldn't be considered a "christian" to most of his fellow believers.



posted on Mar, 7 2008 @ 07:13 AM
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Originally posted by Merigold
My main gripe with christianity ( this is the religion I know most about ) is the fact that most Christians aren't "christ-like".




You can use the bible to justify just about any atrocity yo can think of. A real Christian wouldn't though. The takes me to the belief that jesus was probably the only real christian that ever lived.


You can't though, can you? You can use the bible to excuse, but whether that excuse is justified is a matter for people to judge for themselves. History tends to judge so-called religious wars on more scientific grounds than spiritual justification. The crusades are a case in point. Mr Bush's assertion of God being on his side will hopefully be judged in a similar fashion.

As for the point about Jesus being the only Christian that ever lived, and that most Christians aren't Christ like - I would respectfully suggest that your demands on Christians are a little high. To be a Christian is to follow Jesus' teachings and works - not to replicate him. Christians are committed to being as close to Jesus as possible. If their ability to do so disappoints you, but there are those that would argue that it's not the winning (being Christ-like) that's important, but the taking part (TRYING to be Christ-like)...

LW



posted on Mar, 7 2008 @ 07:46 AM
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It was a different time and dispensation back then, the laws were given for men to adhere to otherwise there would be no curb for sin, in the beginning before salvation before man had the ability to shed sin, the consequences had to be tough for a time in my opinion which is just that an opinion which i could be wrong.

As for God telling Isreal to kill, well thats just war, killing all the children, women and children we are not sure it could be so that no remnant is alive to ever come back against isreal or in my opinion it could be that God wanted them dead because its part of the war against satan, some speculations believe that Fallen Angels mated with the daughters of men to pollute the seed of the women so the prophecy that God and told in the Garden how the seed of the women would bruise thy head would not be accomplished, so the tainted seed had to be killed off, that is why there were giants in the land back in the days imo they were angel/human hybrids. keep in mind this is all theory not much in the bible to go on, but we all know new testament is all about loving your neighbor, loving your God and not about killing, in the end God will Judge all.


Keeper



posted on Mar, 7 2008 @ 07:53 AM
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For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. (Isaiah 55:8-9)


To be quite honest, we (Christians) do not owe any man an answer concerning God and His ways. Secondly, given the scripture above, and the question of how we, Christians, are supposed to justify some video, and explain God’s decision and actions, is fruitless, since everything concerning God is beyond the confinement of our human mind. The only thing we, Christians are to give an answer for, concerns the reason of hope that is within us. (I Peter 3:15)

But if you want an answer for comparison’s between the Old and the New Testaments, in regard, perhaps to God’s thinking, start here:


That in the dispensation of the fulness of times (GRACE) he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: (Ephesians 1:10)


Just like God warned Noah of pending judgement, and provided a space of time (GRACE) to build the ark and warn others of the coming judgement, we are now in a space of time (GRACE) like Noah was, and the same warning of pending judgement exist. And just as Noah entered the Ark before the judgement of God fell, today, Jesus (Jeshua) is the like figure of that Ark which people are now entering into within this dispensation of GRACE. ( I Peter 3:18-22) Even Jesus confirmed that the end-time, before His return, would be like the days of Noah. (Matthew 24:38).

People seem to see two God’s between the Testaments, but He is the same God, He never changes. He is a loving God, but He is also a righteous God. One may be bothered by the actions of the Old Testament God, and see a loving God in the New Testament, but, look into the Book of Revelation and, to the unbelieving eyes, that Mean, Old Testament God resurfaces, pouring out judgement and fury.

Yet, in the eyes, of the believing, whether looking back or forward, we see a God who loves us and defends us against evil and corrupt men, all the way down to their offspring. For no good thing comes from a seed that is corrupt, when it blooms and grows, it is just as corrupt as from the one who produced the seed.



posted on Mar, 7 2008 @ 07:55 AM
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You're right, I do have high expectation.

As for taking part and trying to be christ-like, fair enough. I can respect that. I just don't think most christians try very hard. Spouting bible verses and going to church on Sundays and Wendsdays is not my idea of "trying"

Look, I have no beef with christians - I envy you to a point. I just think that jesus' message has been polluted through the years. I believe that jesus' message was about love and the self sacrifice it entails. I think he'd be displeased to see how his teachings have been skewed.



posted on Mar, 7 2008 @ 08:21 AM
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Hi/ Blackops719/


Your Post heading reads,''Christians...how do you justify all of this?''
Why have you chosen to direct your question post to Christians?

I mean, if we are to be fair here, this is really not a concern for Christianity, but only for those that still follow the Old Testament.
Was it not Christ ,who came and offered LOVE for your neighbour,enemy etc.... above all else!
Did He not teach to ''not Judge'',condemn or you shall be 'judged' or condemned?
There are many teachings and parables both in the Old and Old and New Testament that show us many of good examples and also some of which are not so good if we had chosen our own path...to be away from God.(as did some of the Old Testament people)
All Scripture from the Bible show us humility and Love toward our fellow man,But first we must seek God, for it was not God that made things go wrong, but man trusting his own judgment and not wanting to follow God and do His will.
Although God had always spoken or appeared in different form or sent His Angel/s(Holy Trinity in the form of three travelers to Abraham and Sarah under the oak of Mamre) to people in the Old Testament, not all followed or wanted to do Gods will....but chose their own doing.

The Greek Word for Christian is 'Xristianos'....it means to be Christ like!
Christ means the annointed!
Old Testament scripture also refers to the book of Enoch....Wisdom

To quote///"Sophia" translated from the Greek means "Divine Wisdom" or Wisdom.
Sophian heresey


The whole of the Bible is not only for Christians, but a book for all of mankind!
It teaches us History and more often then not, it repeats itself with the same mistakes known beforehand.
I had previously given an answer to a similar post as yours,


HERE
The Orthodox believe that the Bible is the recorded history of God's relationship to man in human history, and man's response to God.
The Orthodox also believe that the Bible was written by persons inspired by God and that it is the word of God.



Christianity only came about after Christ Resurrected as prophesied by the Prophets in the Old Testament!
A great many of greater/lesser Prophets of the Old Testament who prophesied the Word of God and the coming of the messiah.
All prophets in the Old Testament are Saints of the New Testament Church and are all honoured as such, as did the Old Testament times people. .....'Precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of His Saints' (Psalm 119:6)
Moses could not look upon the face of God ...
Whilst in the New Testament, God is with US in Human flesh and therefore, the Old is made New....The name Emmanuel actually means 'God is With Us'

God spoke to righteous men of the Old Testament as man in human form could not rather then appearing to man in the Old Testament.
God also spoke to evil and good men...so that they may come to their own thinking of right and wrong.
God chose His prophets because His prophets chose Him through their own free will to do the work of God...

God took flesh and became man 'The Son of God' to show Man understanding of what was not
read www.abovetopsecret.com... this thread,


Supposedly the bible is God's word, literally translated and "perfect"
as God's will is supposed to be. IMO if the bible is God's word,
then ALL of his word must be adhered to and taken at face value,
anything less would be hippocritical to say the least.

This is where many falter unknowingly/or many knowingly out of whatever agenda they have in mind!
The Bible is the Word of God,but the translation of which you speak cannot be translated by just anyone.

Why?
I don't think one would deny that if.....
one is sick, one then goes to the doctor or the hospital to find a doctor!
The same applies to theology...If it doesn't, then it should!
If you want a proper translation of the Bible(The Word of God)then you go to the Church...not of Modern translation and understanding, but of that of Ancient Christianity!
''Obedience to the teaching of the apostles, i.e. observing God's commands, is a sign of true theognosia.
"Whoever knows God listens to us; whoever is not from God does not listen to us. From this, we know the spirit of truth from the spirit of delusion" (1 Jo. 4:6).
Early fathers have translated all in accordance with the teachings of the 12 apostles, who were taught by Jesus Christ, who came together and
''Understandest thou what thou readest?
He replied, How can I except some man should guide me? (Acts 8:30-31)The The same rule applies today!
A teacher teaches the student and not the student the teacher!


What if we took literally the Written Word or teachings of Christ in His so many wonderful parables/

The Parables of Christ?
Are we to take them literally ?
Again, no!
These are examples of what we should be and should not be.
One example is the parable of the wedding feast.......
The translations are those of Early Christianity....Well known by all Christians is Saint John Chrysostomo(Golden mouth)because his words were Golden.


The verses that we heard this morning, from the twenty-second chapter of St. Matthew, are comprised of one of Christ's parables, that in which He compares the Kingdom of Heaven to a great marriage feast. Christ says that "The Kingdom of Heaven is like unto a certain King, which made a marriage for his son.
The Parable of the Wedding Feast

The Faith of Christians is NOT the Bible(as early Christianity relied on tradition and not the Bible!).....as this is just a BOOK.
It is not the Bible that Saves man from the eternal judgment, but God alone, in His great Mercy.
Once Crucified upon the Cross(Cross bearing four sides,earth's number is four)and Resurrected(fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy),so that ALL men can be saved(in prophecy),and not for Himself(as other's mocked Him on the Cross to 'get down' and save Himself), for He Had no need to be saved, but did this out of Love for all mankind.

Just a few Scripture references....


The Bible sees true wisdom in humble devotion to God in the most severe sufferings and in recognizing the unfathomable nature of God's ways when suffering innocently.
I myself came forth naked from my mother's womb, naked also shall I depart hence; the Lord hath given, the Lord hath taken away.
As it seemed good to the Lord, so hath it come to pass: blessed be the name of the Lord... If we have received good things from the hand of the Lord, shall we not endure evil things? (Job 1:21; 2:10).
This is the wisdom of the righteous Job. But there is no true wisdom in the dialectical logic of his friends, for the very reason that they self-confidently consider that they understand God's thoughts.

The didactic books ~books of teaching~

Here are some prophetic Words of the Old Testament....


Woe, O sinful nation,
a people full of sins,
an evil seed, lawless children...
Why should ye be smitten any more,
transgressing more and more?
The whole head is pained,
and the whole heart is sad.
Herald of the New Testament


I have to be honest and say that I have not seen the video you posted as I am unable to view it...but hopefully it will be justifiable as to what I wrote(lengthy, I know, no excuses for rambling on...just a few examples to get to where I was going,and sorry,it's an excuse!)
'Im sorry, real tired...if you dont understand any of this, let me know.


IX
helen



posted on Mar, 7 2008 @ 08:52 AM
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it's pretty funny how christians use the ole 'we follow the new testament not the old anymore' argument. cuz ya know...the new testament does have many repulsive passages for one ...and also, why do ya still adhere to the ten commandments? lol pick and choose...which is it?



posted on Mar, 7 2008 @ 09:10 AM
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reply to post by Elisha4Yah
 


Thank you Elisha4Yah for being able to reply to the OP better than me. I am amazed at how controversial this subject is. Only Christ centered people catch the kind of flack we see here.

This Religion is like a burr under a saddle for all who do not understand who Christ is. Everyone is affected by Jesus the Lord in one way or another.Some look for any excuse not to believe the Bible for what it is. The Word of God. We really are a stiff necked people.

OP- Keep searching. the answers are out there and in here!



posted on Mar, 7 2008 @ 09:15 AM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
BTW get a good life insurance policy.


How Christian of you. Threatening someone who asks you to actually think about your religion.



posted on Mar, 7 2008 @ 09:17 AM
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Originally posted by Freakaloin
it's pretty funny how christians use the ole 'we follow the new testament not the old anymore' argument. cuz ya know...the new testament does have many repulsive passages for one ...and also, why do ya still adhere to the ten commandments? lol pick and choose...which is it?


Why is that funny? It says specifically in the Bible, that after Jesus had died and rose again, there was a whole new light shed on things so to speak. The old testament was much different because during those times, if one wanted to communicate with God, one had to sacrifice. That was just one major difference, there are many more. But since his son had died on the cross, we are now openly able to communicate with God in heaven, so that he may hear our prayers and praise. This was all made possible due to Jesus leaving the holy spirit with us after his acention to heaven, to be with his heavenly father, God. Yes, I know, I don't completely understand why it would be this complicated, but it is. I see so many posts from people that haven't been Christians, and that have, saying, "Oh, its just a denominational religion. Its just here to soak up our money and put us under control of a select few. There is no proof of God, and its just a farce." Well, you know what? I wouldn't blame you. I too have been to a few select churches that label themselves as Christian churches, but are there to only tell you what your doing wrong, and that you better change. Basically, make you feel bad, and want your money. There is no denying this that there is corrupt Christianity, and that most of you here that claim Christianity hurt you, were exposed to this.

Real Christianity is so much more. It's based off of love. Yes, yes, there was the old testament that referred to war and killing the non believers, but that was due to the fact that they weren't exposed to the same covenant (the holy spirit) back then as we are today. I can say that God is real for a number of things that you guys would shoot down as mere coincidences and emotion, but only I can say that it is so much more because I'm the one who experienced them.

I have found a church that loves me for who I am, and doesn't deny anyone the love of Christ. It isn't religious in such a way, that they look down upon the people that have sinned (because we all have), but rather embraces them in love, for the sake of God's will. He loves me, and everyone else, and asked me to love everyone else too, so why shouldn't I? Also, one must understand, to love does not mean to like in this situation. The word "Islam" is getting heated up here, so I'll use it. I can say that I would love and Islamic person, and try my best to embrace them in love, but I may certainly not agree with their religion, or their ways. Infact, chances are, they'd treat me with hostility, and for that, I may not like them. The bible says to feed your enemy, and to find joy in all things, but I don't think it asks us to put on a fake smile when loving those we hate, Although, this could be disputed.

What I am trying to say is, like before, Christianity SHOULD be love. Obviously, people have seen many displays and accounts where it wasn't, and for this, the Christian body has failed. But, with such a loving God, he has grace. He forgives our downfalls, and gives us more opportunities to show this. I myself, have felt Gods hand (Not litterelly) in my life, and I know I wouldn't of been able to make it through many parts of it, without him. I also know that the feeling I feel is more than an emotion when I come into God's presence, and that it is a feeling of awe and joy mixed together.

I'm not trying convert you, but merely pointing out that yes, there is a corrupt Christianity, and yes, it is often the one that gets seen the most, but somewheres, there is a true Christianity that is not based on money and power, but rather, love and peace. Its true.



posted on Mar, 7 2008 @ 09:34 AM
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Has anyone even watched the video? This is a clear example of when anti-religion people get so excited over religion bashing, but it seems as though no one stopped to actually examine what the video says.

While it would be fun and educational to bash all of it, just examine the opening logic:

- It assumes that because a Supreme Court Justice claims "99%" of people believe in the ten commandments, that all 99% ALSO believe in the whole bible. The reality is many people do believe in some or all of the ten commandments without believing the rest of the bible at all: or would anyone like to argue against "thou shalt not kill"?

- It assumes that the Bible says old testament rules must be carried out today, even though a cursory reading for the new testament shows that many do indeed believe Jesus was accurate when he said he was the fulfillment of the law. Under such circumstances, the game changes and suddenly not everyone is held to the standard of not working on the Sabbath.

- It assumes everyone who works on the Sabbath holds an interpretation of the Bible that ignores Jesus's claim that he is the fulfillment of the law. Or even more obviously, that everyone who works on the Sabbath even believes in Christianity.

So many assumptions, and you know what happens when you assume. This is just another example of zealous anti-religion that doesn't stop to consider the implications of its assumptions.



posted on Mar, 7 2008 @ 09:36 AM
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reply to post by Freakaloin
 


Hi Freakaloin/

I'm just tired and had to 'look' up at your user name!
sorry!
Ok,



The Ten Commandments of the Law were arranged on two tablets because they legislate two aspects of love: love for God and love for neighbor.

Indicating these two aspects of love,
the Lord Jesus Christ in answering the question,
Which is the greatest commandment in the Law?
Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
This is the first and great commandment.
And the second is like unto it,
Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
On these two commandments hang all the Law and the prophets (Matt. 22:37-40).

To love God is our first and most important obligation, because He is our Creator, Provider, and Saviour. For in Him we live, and move, and have our being (Acts 17:28).

Amen!

Hope that made it clear as to what is written in the New Testament!
and an explanation of them as to what they are telling us!

IX
helen



posted on Mar, 7 2008 @ 09:41 AM
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and so why do you still believe the ten commandments? sorry fellas, yall still pick and choose from the old(and new) testaments. the new testament is full of repulsive passages just as the old testament. religious ppl are delusional, period. us normal, non religious ppl see that. just as you christians see muslims as delusion. just as muslims see christians as delusional. etc. the fact is all religious ppl are delusional and have to come up with fantastical irrational excuses to explain their beliefs. thats why i think it's hilarious!...



posted on Mar, 7 2008 @ 09:48 AM
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Originally posted by Freakaloin
religious ppl are delusional, period. us normal, non religious ppl see that. just as you christians see muslims as delusion. just as muslims see christians as delusional. etc. the fact is all religious ppl are delusional and have to come up with fantastical irrational excuses to explain their beliefs. thats why i think it's hilarious!...


I can picture you now having a lovely little chortle to yourself. Thanks very much for your post - it has added a great deal to the debate and was well worth your spending an hour typing in. It's insight like this that removes any shred of worthless faith I was clinging to, and makes me angry with myself for thinking anything spiritual was worthwhile for all these years.

Thanks to your well-developed and carefully thought out argument, I see now that I was wrong all the time, and that actually what I should have been doing with my life was trying to find a way to be normal like you.

Thanks again, and keep chortling.

LW



posted on Mar, 7 2008 @ 09:55 AM
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delusion- a fixed false belief that is resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact.

that sounds about right. isn't that what you christians think about muslims beliefs? or no? what about mormons? hindus?

so jesus (of which there is no evidence of existing)came down and said god has decided to change his mind about some things i told moses(no evidence of him either)isn't delusional? uhm...ok!



posted on Mar, 7 2008 @ 09:58 AM
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reply to post by weedwhacker
 


Dude I made perfect sense, youre not, get off my case I was trying to get to the video but certain people wont get over 1 retracted post.. in which I said Im coming back to the video!!!!!!!! Jeeeez.




posted on Mar, 7 2008 @ 10:10 AM
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Originally posted by Freakaloin
delusion- a fixed false belief that is resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact.


Well copied. Faith - belief that is not based on proof. See, I can do it too.



isn't that what you christians think about muslims beliefs? or no? what about mormons? hindus?


I can't speak for all "you Christians", but no, it's not what I believe. What has what "you Christians" believe about Islam got to do with the OP, by the way?



so jesus (of which there is no evidence of existing)


Wrong! There's lots of evidence of the existence of Jesus - what you mean is there's no evidence of the existence of the son of God. Which brings us back to the definitions of delusion and faith at the top of this post. The difference between us is that I'm not dismissing atheists as idiots. Although you're making doing so pretty tempting.



came down and said god has decided to change his mind about some things i told moses(no evidence of him either)isn't delusional? uhm...ok!


OK! May I suggest that you read my earlier post on Page 5, and Pacific Wind's post on Page 6, and formulate a response to the points raised there - that way you'd be engaging with the debate started by the OP, rather than voicing your slightly patronising and wholly irrelevant prejudices against faith generally.

Thanks again for your posts,

LW





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