The Sorcery Conspiracy

reply to post by Bigwhammy


I now understand the point you are making. Now I wonder how much more of the Bible has been mis-represented. You have pointed out in another thread the "hell" actually meant "grave" and now "sorcery" is also an incorrect representation. A book(s) so full of errors, I for one am glad I don't hold it close to my heart.

Also, I agree that this is the forum, I never questioned that. Just another mark against Christianity, preaching from misinterpreted text(s).

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
I wonder if people are missing the point of the thread?

The conspiracy is the bad translation that steals the meaning of the verse in the Bible.

I contend that Rev. 9:21

Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

Should read

Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their drug use, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

because the text was written in Greek not English. Where you see the word sorcery was the Greek word pharmakia. (where pharmacy comes from). So sorcery is a poor choice of words.

Please see this page

That has been the main point this thread was about.

People aren't getting it.

I am frustrated.



edit added strongs greek link

[edit on 3/3/2008 by Bigwhammy]

Here is how I, personally, would understand the verse.

Neither were they sorrowful, to the point of seeking forgiveness for their abuses to others, even to the point of murder; nor sorrowful for their abuses against their own Self---physical and spiritual.

I know this is a longer way to say the same verse...but a scholar I'm definately not

grammar check

[edit on 3-3-2008 by deenamarie53]

[edit on 3-3-2008 by deenamarie53]

Originally posted by Siren
I was searching the web tonight and found this site. The paper is two hundred pages and I have only read part of the first two pages, however, it could be what we all are talking about.

Encyclopedia of Ancient and Forbidden Secrets

www.scribd.com...

Great link, Siren. It'll sure take me a long time to read it....but it's interesting enough and relevant enough to this topic that it merits further serious reading.

reply to post by adigregorio


I believe the Bible is inspired by God in it's original form. So it is up to us to do our best to determine what God meant.

To ignore it because it isn't easy is a cop out.

If you are not a Christian, if you do not believe in Jesus as your savior, then this discussion really should not concern you.

I tried to be real clear about that from the beginning of the post in the NOTE. I also welcomed all faiths, but with the understanding it was a Bible topic first and foremost. I think it got derailed by people who wanted to justify their drug use.

BTW adigregorio I really do pray for you every day. Ever since the Hero thread.

take care

Do you want me to tell you what coincidentally happens?

Yes, please tell me. This Christian wants to know.

The topic is amusing. Christianity is the majority in many countries yet its followers will continuously feel persecuted by invisible entities or persons that do not exist.

If they do not exist, is what you are insinuating is that they are hallucinating? What about out of body experiences, or astral projection, or even dreams and visions are those experiencing this type of phenomenon hallucinating also?

In sorcery, the use of drugs, whether simple or potent, was generally accompanied by incantations and appeals to occult powers, with the provision of various charms, amulets, etc.

Plants used for oneself for whatever reason is not the same thing as sorcery. Sorcery by definition:

Magic, sometimes known as sorcery, is a conceptual system that asserts human ability to control the natural world (including events, objects, people, and physical phenomena) through mystical, paranormal or supernatural means.

en.wikipedia.org...

pharmacy
c.1386, "a medicine," from O.Fr. farmacie, from M.L. pharmacia, from Gk. pharmakeia "use of drugs or medicines," from pharmakeus "preparer of drugs," from pharmakon "drug, poison, philter, charm, spell, enchantment." Meaning "use or administration of drugs" is attested from c.1400; that of "place where drugs are prepared and dispensed" is first recorded 1833. Pharmacist coined in Eng. 1834.

The above dates on the use of the term pharmacy would not apply to the ancient use.

Apothecary
rendered in the margin and the Revised Version "perfumer," in Ex. 30:25; 37:29; Eccl. 10:1. The holy oils and ointments were prepared by priests properly qualified for this office. The feminine plural form of the Hebrew word is rendered "confectionaries" in 1 Sam. 8:13.

Does this make it clearer?

So you see...true sorcery again...like I posted at the very beginning. Manipulating a people...its not about the tools, or herbs.
Your totally looking at the wrong thing. Someone cries out, "hey look a smurf" and their goes the heads of the masses while they pull the wool over their eyes.

This is very well stated and a fact most want to overlook.

Sometimes people do the wrong thing for the right reason and the right thing for all the wrong reasons. Life is funny that way.

Did anyone look at the info on my previous post (see below)?

Encyclopedia of Ancient and Forbidden Secrets
www.scribd.com...

reply to post by deenamarie53


Hey Deena,

How are you?

That is probably more meaningful to a modern reader than sorcery, ya know?
Ok-- well abuse of self would cover abusing drugs.

Where do you get that interpretation... is it personal?

That's fine.

reply to post by Bigwhammy

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
To ignore it because it isn't easy is a cop out.

Now I never said I ignored it. I just do not let it decide how I should live. Like I stated earlier in this thread. The Bible was written by man, and I do not let others tell me how to live my life. What I mean is, I do what I want to do.

The Bible had some nice ideas on how to treat others, and if that goes hand in hand with what I want, then it is what I do. And before selfish is the thought, I do not believe in the concept. In order for one to call another selfish, it requires the one doing the calling to be selfish. After all I am not putting "their" needs/wants in front of mine.

I appreciate the prayers, and I will let you know if they work. So far nothing fancy has happened yet. I had an MSG headache yesterday, and other than that I have been healthy.

The Bible as it stands, is not the book for me. Like I said it has some good ideas on how to act. But as you have pointed out, it has errors in it. I like to think what I believe is the "truth". And if the Bible was "wrong" about sorcery and hell, what else is it "wrong" about? Of course that is allegory for you, neither entirely true, nor entirely false.

Yep, "sorcerer's" were pharmacists in ancient times. This is exactly what I have tried to explain to people many times. Good thread

reply to post by SpeakerofTruth


Thank you! A brother that gets it, finally!!

Time to take a break on that one.

Originally posted by nikolat23

By the way, I don't do drugs. I don't believe in "sorcerers" or "magical powers" or "magical books". My personal experience came from meditation and it was an interesting hallucination.

[edit on 3-3-2008 by nikolat23]

It's interesting to me that you called your personal experiental truth an hallucination. Did you intend the choice of this or am I being picky?

It seems there's a lot of flesh rending going oh....but who am I

It would be cool if you could share your hallucination with us 'cause it's all good.

Originally posted by Siren

Do you want me to tell you what coincidentally happens?

Yes, please tell me. This Christian wants to know.

The topic is amusing. Christianity is the majority in many countries yet its followers will continuously feel persecuted by invisible entities or persons that do not exist.

If they do not exist, is what you are insinuating is that they are hallucinating? What about out of body experiences, or astral projection, or even dreams and visions are those experiencing this type of phenomenon hallucinating also?

In sorcery, the use of drugs, whether simple or potent, was generally accompanied by incantations and appeals to occult powers, with the provision of various charms, amulets, etc.

Plants used for oneself for whatever reason is not the same thing as sorcery. Sorcery by definition:

Magic, sometimes known as sorcery, is a conceptual system that asserts human ability to control the natural world (including events, objects, people, and physical phenomena) through mystical, paranormal or supernatural means.

en.wikipedia.org...

pharmacy
c.1386, "a medicine," from O.Fr. farmacie, from M.L. pharmacia, from Gk. pharmakeia "use of drugs or medicines," from pharmakeus "preparer of drugs," from pharmakon "drug, poison, philter, charm, spell, enchantment." Meaning "use or administration of drugs" is attested from c.1400; that of "place where drugs are prepared and dispensed" is first recorded 1833. Pharmacist coined in Eng. 1834.

The above dates on the use of the term pharmacy would not apply to the ancient use.

Apothecary
rendered in the margin and the Revised Version "perfumer," in Ex. 30:25; 37:29; Eccl. 10:1. The holy oils and ointments were prepared by priests properly qualified for this office. The feminine plural form of the Hebrew word is rendered "confectionaries" in 1 Sam. 8:13.

Does this make it clearer?

So you see...true sorcery again...like I posted at the very beginning. Manipulating a people...its not about the tools, or herbs.
Your totally looking at the wrong thing. Someone cries out, "hey look a smurf" and their goes the heads of the masses while they pull the wool over their eyes.

This is very well stated and a fact most want to overlook.

Sometimes people do the wrong thing for the right reason and the right thing for all the wrong reasons. Life is funny that way.

Did anyone look at the info on my previous post (see below)?

Encyclopedia of Ancient and Forbidden Secrets
www.scribd.com...

I am sorry that I am not communicating effectively enough.

This not about the real meaning of the word Sorcery.

The point is that sorcery is the wrong word.
Using the English definition of pharmacy and apothecary isn't germane to the translation issue I am addressing.

The scripture I am using from Revelations is originally in Greek.

The word in the Bible in Greek is pharmikia.

The gold standard for Biblical interpretation of the Greek is Strong's Greek Lexicon.

here it is:cf.blueletterbible.org...

See we actually agree-- I don't mean to say drug use is like Harry Potter sorcery.

That does not change the meaning of the Greek Pharmikia

the number one definition is drug use.

1) the use or the administering of drugs

2) poisoning

3) sorcery, magical arts, often found in connection with idolatry and fostered by it

4) metaph. the deceptions and seductions of idolatry

[edit on 3/3/2008 by Bigwhammy]

reply to post by Bigwhammy


Again, the drugs were used on other people. It is what the firey darts and (heap up dust and take it) dust, bugs, cankerworms, palmerworms are made from and of.

I have listed a few Biblical references.

Hint: They used the word MAKE (manufactured by man) and not TELL.

Revelation 21:27
And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Revelation 22:15
For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.


I hope you do not think the following is about an outdoor garden. What the enemy did was sorcery.
Matthew 13:25
But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

Matthew 13:30
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Matthew 13:38
The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

Habakkuk 1:10
And they shall scoff at the kings, and the princes shall be a scorn unto them: they shall deride every strong hold; for they shall heap dust, and take it.

Daniel 2:22
He revealeth the deep and secret things: he knoweth what is in the darkness, and the light dwelleth with him

Ephesians 5:12
For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.



[edit on 3-3-2008 by Siren]

reply to post by Siren


OK -but I am not trying to define sorcery OK?

The word sorcery is misused.

It should read drug use.

see this post

[edit on 3/3/2008 by Bigwhammy]

reply to post by adigregorio
I would say the OP is probably working through some 'issues' at this point in what some would describe as his spiritual journey. He is here to test himself and to find allies.

Above Top Secret may be changing character as it grows more 'broadbased' and commercialized, but a thread in which the 'conspiracy' is merely (takes deep breath) the unintentional suppression through claimed misinterpretation of the supposed mistranslation of a first-century Greek noun (exhales what little air is left) is very, very far from either the letter or the spirit of this forum. It is a subject, not even for a religious forum as someone suggested earlier, but a forum on scriptural arcana: the sort of place where obsessives go to argue about angels dancing on pinheads.

No, there is another agenda here: and as you rightly point out, it's an anti-drug agenda.

I see nothing wrong with a member having such an agenda. It would be admirable if it were presented as such, rather than wrapped in some transparent disguise in order to smuggle it onto ATS.

However, it is here, and judging from the endorsements that flew thick and fast in the first few pages of the thread, it has struck a chord with several members.

Personallly, I neither know nor care whether the OP is correct. I regard both the Bible and sorcery as early, delusive and ultimately futile attempts to understand the universe. What drew me to this thread were

1. The attempt to exculde some members from it
   
2. Keith Richards
   

Keef's name was the first of many prurient, almost lascivious references to drugs, drug culture and getting stoned with which the OP's posts are decorated. I find this very amusing.

My own opinion? The Bible may speak out against the sorcerous (in the traditional sense) use of herbs, philtres and potions; it may be down on freelance healers who used such things because, after all, they were competition: the Temple and later the Church claimed very potent healing powers of their own; but as far as I know it says nothing, anywhere, against the use of drugs for other, shall we say, personal reasons.

Small wonder. The Middle East has been foggy with kif and hashish for pretty much all of history -- and this is the part of the world where history began. Priests and mystics (I know this from an extensive review of the literature and personal acquaintance with numerous exemplars of many faiths) have always had a particular weakness for the stuff. I have no doubt that Ezekiel, Jeremiah and the rest were as stoned as bats while they were having their visions.

Samuel, however, was probably straight. He was an ambitious little beggar, and he couldn't afford to let his concentration slip. Notice how he had all his most crucial visions while he was tucked up in bed and there was no-one else around?

[edit on 3-3-2008 by Astyanax]

reply to post by adigregorio


Actually, I believe that Christians are meant to live the message of Christ and not to drift into judgemental attitudes. However.... tolerance of the deletrious behaviours of others doesn't equate to acceptance of the those choices made by others.

Being non-judgemental doesn't preclude me, or anyone, from speaking up against what I see as being in error. Hopefully it can be accomplished with compassion....which doesn't always work. But it's something to strive for.



[edit on 3-3-2008 by deenamarie53]

reply to post by Bigwhammy


What about vitamins?

The dictionary meaning of drug includes...

1. Pharmacology. a chemical substance used in the treatment, cure, prevention, or diagnosis of disease or used to otherwise enhance physical or mental well-being.

2. (in federal law)
b. any substance intended for use in the diagnosis, cure, mitigation,
treatment, or prevention of disease in humans or other animals.
c. any article, other than food, intended to affect the structure or any
function of the body of humans or other animals.

Source

Seems that vitamins would be a no-no too. Darn you Centrum Silver!

[edit] added linkage

[edit on 3/3/2008 by adigregorio]

reply to post by deenamarie53


I am afraid I do not understand. I accept the right that others have in choosing what they want to do to themselves. Actually I will say that I accept the right that people can do what they want to do. It is not up to me to say that it is "wrong" or "right". Anything is just anything, drug use is drug use, religion is religion, murder is murder. None of these things are good or bad, they just are.

Applying human characteristics to something that is not human is a common practice. One, I think, should be stopped. Religion does not have a "self" therefore it can neither be "good" or "bad". And "right" and "wrong" are all in the eye of the beholders.

Lastly, I believe the Bible said it was incorrect to judge another. I do not think it said anything about actions. So while a Christian should not say "Mr. User is bad" they could say "Mr. User is using drugs, using drugs is bad." This is just my personal interpretation and could be incorrect.

The OP's point (if I am finally on the right page) is that sorcery was mis-represented. And it pertains to drug usage. If that is the case then alot of Christians have some forgiveness to be asking. Countless numbers take drugs in one form or another (see vitamin post above). Not to mention sacrament. Heck, even prayer can be a form of drug.

reply to post by Astyanax


Some huge assumptions going on there in this post, eh.

Myself, I think it's off-topic to try and psychoanlyze someone you're never met But so be it, if this is how best suits you. All of us here are intelligent enough to listen and learn via the exchange of info.

reply to post by adigregorio


adigregorio the purpose of this thread was never for me to make judgments about any specific drugs or anything.

It got derailed by people who want to justify using drugs.
The Bible asks Christians to be sober people. So I got off topic and argued with them, Too much - because I care.

If you go back and read through the thread you will see we found Bible verses that deal with medicines and "good drugs"

My point is that drugs are a problem in our society - everyone knows that.

It seems like it is not addressed in the Bible.

I say it is addressed but people are not aware of it because of an outdated translation.

The conspiracy angle is -->why hasn't it been updated???

Are the Big Pharmaceutical companies and drug dealers the the REAL SORCERERS who are keeping the real teaching suppressed??

That is the discussion, now ask your Doctor about vitamins oK?

reply to post by deenamarie53

Some huge assumptions going on there in this post, eh.

If you would like to enumerate them, and you think it would be helpful, and if it wasn't, er, off topic, we might discuss them.

Surely you cannot have read my post to the end if you think it was off topic.

As for what I wrote in the first paragraph, I have a feeling the OP will not entirely disagree, though he may choose, as he did before, to paraphrase me.