Round 1. FreeThinkerIdealist v Coven: Alien Abductions

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posted on Feb, 16 2008 @ 01:52 AM
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The topic for this debate is "Alien abductions are a real phenomenon".

FreeThinkerIdealist will be arguing the pro position and will open the debate.
Coven will argue the con position.

Each debater will have one opening statement each. This will be followed by 3 alternating replies each. There will then be one closing statement each and no rebuttal.


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posted on Feb, 16 2008 @ 04:43 AM
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I have been given the task to debate the pro position that Alien abductions are a real phenomenon.

This subject in itself can be touchy. I only ask of the reader to keep an open mind. In a philosophical sense, my duty is not to prove aliens are real, but that the experience is real to those who it affects.

There is more than one usage to the word phenomenon. I need not use all forms, just need to show it fits to at least one of these definitions.

Here are some of the definitions that I will use for this word:


In philosophy, the use of the word phenomenon differs from other uses in that it refers to perceived events. Phenomena may be perceived through a person's senses or with their mind.

Wiki


an exceptional, unusual, or abnormal person, thing, or occurrence

Webster


I will be able to show that people have believed to be abducted by aliens, that beyond any doubt in their own mind it was real. Even if a particular instance is found to be explained in an alternative way, these self-proclaimed abductees had a unusual occurance that has had an effect on their lives and outlooks.

It is also true that not all alien abductions have been explained away by honest skeptics. There are many open and unsolved cases in the world that seem to have no logical worldly explanation.



posted on Feb, 17 2008 @ 08:33 AM
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reply to post by FreeThinkerIdealist
 


The Idea of Alien Abductions began on September 19, 1961 with the Betty and Barney Hill Incident. Since the occurrence of this incident, the idea of Alien Abductions of humans has taken off. Mrs. Hill began this phenomena through a recollection of this incident in a nightmare. Mrs. Hill was SO adamant that this occurred that she even had witnesses visit a landing site with her. Oddly enough ONLY Mrs. Hill could see the UFO or the Alien entities.

There seems to be a trend in alien abduction that follows the same pattern as the Hill's.
There is ALWAYS a period of NOT KNOWING. some call it amnesia. I prefer to view it as dream suppression. There is a Period of Awakening, or THINKING something out of the ordinary has occurred, or 'dream realization'. Next is the step that makes the scientific study of these incidences improbable. Hypnosis, Counseling, and Psychotherapy;or as I call them 'thought implanting'; are almost ALWAYS the breaking point where the person 'comes' to the realization that they were abducted. As I shall show in this argument, Abductions are nothing more than the creation of a Sci-fi culture mixed in with the right amount of "Suggestive Hypnosis".

We all have good and bad dreams. An estimated 75-90% of what we dream is lost in the foray of the mind going from sub-conscious processes to conscious processes. As rationally large brained beings, we do what all beings do when they experience something they don't understand. We make up a story to match the occurrence. A person may dream they are abducted by military, or friends. but in the foray of passing this data from Sub-conscious to the conscious mind causes a confusion. we can remember the dream, and the gist of it. but the players are a blank; which leads to the creation of characters to fill these positions.

Before Roswell, THERE were ZERO reports of ALIEN Abduction. Before man TRULY thought Aliens were visiting us, we could not fathom a concept of someone/something being interested in us for scientific research. Now to say that Aliens Do NOT exist is, well, scientifically Improbable. To say that Aliens exist, that have the ability to travel the distances they would need to travel to reach earth, and have the technology to travel that far; that are still interested in the biological functions of other animals would utilize such primitive tactics is illogical, and improbable. We humans as primitive as we are (we can barely get to our own moon, much less another planet) still have surgical procedures which are completely non evasive (from X-ray's to EKG and MRI, and Now even non-invasive laser surgical procedures). To claim that a race advanced enough for intergalactic or interstellar travel would use invasive methods, even 50 years ago is ludicrous at best.

Another Example of an abductee (one who only they can see their abductors... too common of a trend for this to have viability) is Whitley Streiber (of Dreamland fame) who not only claims alien abduction, but goes as far as to claim that these aliens have taken him on intergalactic tours. It is Important to note that Mr. Streiber was introduced to these beliefs during a bought with Anxiety during which he contacted Budd Hopkins(a shady extremely debunked Alien Abduction investigator) who informed him through Hypnosis what 'actually' occurred.

While this May have some probability, It brings to light a superiority complex that may be apparent in ALL 'abductees'. The thinking is fairly easy to understand, as we were all raised with the ideation that 'we are special'. what better proof of this superiority than the thinking that 'we are the ones that other worldly entities MUST study to learn about man'. It is a common psychological issue, dealt with both in and out of the UFO community.

Lastly, when it comes to abductions the only proof that can be claimed is a piece of Extra-terrestrial evidence. ANY tool, scrap of metal, scratch of skin under the nails (one would have to assume if this were occurring the humanistic survival response would kick in. Fight or Flight.)or saliva/blood(DNA) from an ET. ALL evidence ever provided falls into a category of circumstantial evidence, and can easily be explained by what is known as "phantom injury", or when a person is asleep or busily at work and they do not notice the slight bump that caused a bruise, or tear in the flesh.

Once hard evidence is provided that Aliens do exist, and that they do have an interest in the biological study of humans Then a question can be brought forth as to the viability of these 'abductions'. Until that time we MUST stay on the sides and say, YES this is a POSSIBILITY. but... So is me winning the Lottery tomorrow and never returning to this site.

The PROBABILITY of this Occurrence is a billion to one. Just like an alien coming to pick me out of this crowd of 7 billion people, to study ME as an example of Mankind. Possible, yes. Probable, NO. Especially considering the Terror involved in these accounts.

These advanced races are advanced in EVERY way. The last approach a truly scientific culture (read traveling hundreds if not millions of light years for scientific research) would be one that is SO invasive, both to the body and to the mind. There approach would be logical, reasoned, and as peaceful as possible.

In summation, Alien Abduction has zero viable evidence to be a believable occurrence. The Abductees all have to go through the same processes to reach the same goal. Scientifically speaking, if this were truly occurring, SOMEONE would remember all of the details WITHOUT the external influences. Someone would have VIABLE evidence that these visitations occurred. With out evidence, without easily recalled stories of these visitations, without the influence of a hypnotic/psychiatric community, we would be able to discuss this topic, through a logical and scientific explanation. Until then. We must realize that these 'abductees' do not truly believe these occurrences happened. they were steered to that belief by psychological persuasion.


All information on Whitley Streiber, The Hills/Hill Incident, and Budd Hopkins were obtained through The Skeptics Dictionary, (Skeptics Dictionary/A.A. Page) but based on personal review of this page.

further information on non-invasive Vs. Invasive Medical Techniques can be read at
Non Invasive Medical Techniques
and
Minimally Invasive Medical Techniques

I thank you (the reader and my opponent) for your time. I concede the floor back to FreeThinkerIdealist.



posted on Feb, 18 2008 @ 01:11 AM
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First, I need to apologize to my opponent and the readers for my opening, I was tired, hit the save reply as draft for the first time on this site, and it appeared to have posted it. I could not edit it, and had to leave it as such. Hopefully this reply will not erase that one
Now for the fun.




The belief in contact from life outside our own sphere is not something new. There are cave drawings, ancient stories of visitors and being taken away. It did not start with one couple's story, or just because of Roswell. War of the Worlds was published in 1898, the radio stunt was pulled 1938, pre-Roswell. So alien contact is documented in current times before the claimed event that started it all.

My opponent has already admitted that this phenomenon exists, (the alien abduction was a perceived event in the claimed abductee's mind), that many people experience it, and even mentions a couple's names that claimed the experience.

Whether they were really abducted by aliens or not, does not mean that it has not become a cultural phenomenon of experiencing alien abductions; whether they were bad dreams, bad mushrooms, or the real deal. I have no need to prove alien existence, nor direct contact.



I will argue what is irrelevant, and that is my adversaries sidetrack into alien probabilities for mental stimulation.

To say that an alien species wouldn't experiment, because their technology wouldn't require it is a bit of a stretch. If anything, they would abduct people in unpopulated spots and return them as to not disturb the 'inferior' life form too much. We do this with all kinds of animals today. Our process is actually very similar. We tranquilize the animal, take blood samples, inspect and record information on them, the tag and release them. Our tagging process is just now turning from a physical tag that was pierced through the skin, to under skin radio transmitters and trackers.

It is not like people are coming back missing organs and claiming massive unknown scars. Quite the contrary, they claim things like implants, and operations that leave no scars behind. Even as advanced as a lot of our imaging and treatments are, sometimes we still need biological matter for tests, identification, and experiments. We don't retrieve DNA strand information from an EEG.

Claiming all abductees as egotistical is a bit harsh and assumptuous, just because a few of them are, doesn't give us the right to stereotype them all. In fact, studies have shown that most of these people are quite normal.


'The majority of abductees do not appear to be deluded, confabulating, lying, self-dramatizing, or suffering from a clear mental illness,' he maintained. He has encountered only one person who showed psychotic features.


Harvard University Gazette Article



To think that aliens could study man, without studying the subject directly is quite absurd. It is an amusing statement if you ask me. If other worldly entities want to study man, we are the only source of man to study. If there are other bipedal lifeforms on other planets elsewhere, they wouldn't be human. To study a human, they would be required to study men and women from our planet.

On the subject of proof. That is an odd one. If we are still arguing a real physical abduction, then we must look at other burdens of proof. In court, an eyewitness account can put someone in jail, even the electric chair. Yet, if someone passes a polygraph, undergoes a psychiatric evaluation and passes both, everyone will still claim the person is a nutter and move on.

We would have to assume, that aliens committing an abduction would be intelligent, and that their missions to study us would be conducted with the utmost secrecy using the best technology they have to conceal themselves. Since my opponent has admitted they are far beyond our abilities, and we are already dabbling in cloaking devices, it would be arguable that they can make their ships invisible to lessen sightings. We have been working on teleportation devices for decades, it would also follow that they would have this ability far beyond our own.

It would also follow that they would use a room and suit that would keep any foreign materials that could be tested from contaminating the subject. Sort of like the clean rooms and suits we have for making your computer processors and motherboards. Any incisions could be cleared up, since even our re-constructive surgeries can be quite amazing, theirs should be much better.



My opponent admits, it is possible for one, even their self, to be abducted, though improbable. Saying to personally be chosen, out of the 7 billion is unlikely, but, it isn't as if everyone has claimed to have been abducted, it is very rare if you count the total claimed abductees versus the world's population. Relating chances of Earth visitation and personal abductions to the chances of hitting the lottery, last I checked, people hit the lottery all the time (nearly ever time it is drawn), in every one that is held. Just because odds seem off, doesn't mean they fulfill the worst case scenario. You can play the lotto once and hit it, or buy one every time, and never hit it. If scientists said there was a 1% chance of an asteroid hitting Earth, that doesn't require 99 of them to pass by us first.

I would also say, given the supposed real abductions, they have been logical, reasoned, and peaceful as possible. Taking people in remote locations, non-lethal extractions and tests, and studying us to better understand the life form is just that. There hasn't been mass panic, the only way to gain info and study is through direct contact and they haven't stepped off a ship and waved howdy. Of course, the abductees would be terrified, any animal will exhibit fear and panic when being tested, probed, and trapped. Ever take a cat to a vet for shots and a check up?


Again, all this discussion is good for those who accept the thought that aliens exist and are truly abducting humans. I, being in the pro position must make a case for the non-believers as well. This is something that comes down to almost belief, and I don't expect to change that in a simple debate. This is why I have taken to focusing on the psychological, which does exist in enough numbers to qualify it as not only a phenomenon on a personal level, but on a cultural level as well. There have been shows, movies, news programs ... all focusing on this.


All the complicated and opinionated discussion aside, do the claims meet the standards.

Phenomenon as described in my above post:

an exceptional, unusual, or abnormal person, thing, or occurrence

Phenomena may be perceived through a person's senses or with their mind.



Alien abduction, real (physical) or perceived (mind), can be described as exceptional, unusual, and/or abnormal occurrences, and so can the people who claim it.

Therefore, the anomaly of alien abductions qualifies as a real phenomenon ... despite if it is experienced with the person's direct senses, or just in their mind.



posted on Feb, 18 2008 @ 08:59 PM
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Firstly let me state that Ancient cave drawings have been confused and misinterpreted since they were found. To assume one drawing from 10,000 + years before truly written/interpretable history, has any particular meaning is mainly ludicrous, and often misconstrued. The same with ancient visitation. it is interpreted by TRAINED historians to be either parable, or religious in nature. one cannot interpret the thoughts of ancient man as no proof has been provided that ancient man could even phathom these concepts. Most have been interpreted by accredited historians as religious or spiritual representations. As such claims of ancient visitations are inconspicuous at best.

freethinkeridealist
My opponent has already admitted that this phenomenon exists, (the alien abduction was a perceived event in the claimed abductee's mind), that many people experience it, and even mentions a couple's names that claimed the experience.

Websters Defines the term REAL as:
Real
Adjective

1. Being or occurring in fact or actuality; having verified existence; not illusory; "real objects"; "real people; not ghosts"; "a film based on real life"; "a real illness"; "real humility"; "Life is real! Life is earnest!"- Longfellow.
emphasis by coven.

our topic of debate is "Alien Abduction are a realphenomenon"

claims do not make ANYTHING a fact. They only allow speculation until proof is provided. as I stated earlier, MRS. HILL took witnesses to a landing site. NO ONE ELSE saw the aliens or the ship. Only the person who had been hypnotized to believe aliens and abductions were a part of their reality witnessed the spectacle. those not under any exterior mental influence DID NOT see the craft or the beings. ONLY the person who had been hypnotized to believe they had been abducted saw the 'aliens' and their 'craft'. If anything this is FURTHER proof that the abductee's had NO validity to their claim's EXCEPT those implanted in their minds.

As A student of Magic I MUST follow your logic and ask you a simple question.
QUESTION 1:
So, following your logic on this topic. If I can stick a wand through my arm in my magic sleeve... Does the wand truly penetrate my arm?
QUESTION 2:
OR is it just an ILLUSION, Implanted into your mind by a magician?

There is only one correct answer to either question. 1 is no. 2 is yes. as such, one must realize that the implanting of false memories under hypnosis leads a person down a path that could be the EXACT opposite of that which they really traveled.

you see, Betty and Barney Hill ARE the start of it all. They were the FIRST... They are the ones who EVERY abductee bases their story on in some way shape or form. This has been proven both in and out of the U.F.O. community. to deny such is to deny historical record. Betty and Barney hill are where the Idea of the "Grey's" comes from. Small Grey entities 3 to 4 foot tall. Wrap around black eyes... Sound familiar? All one has to do to prove that 100% of Alien Abductions are EARTHLY implanted idea's only takes one sitting in on an abduction regression session.

Penn And Teller have a GREAT episode of their series 'Bulls***' about abduction in which they allow film crews into a regression session. As opposed to asking simple psychological questions such as "who is around you", or "what are they doing" the 'therapist' would ask questions such as "what do the aliens detaining you look like?" it is obvious as one just sits back and WATCHES one of these regressions that the 'therapist' is steering the patient towards an extraterrestrial experience as opposed to a TRUE explanation of the experience they are describing.


While my opponent argues the advancements of mankind as if they were even comparable on the nth level to alien technologies, though it is provable that man cannot even land on mars without extensive technological advances. Meanwhile we are discussing the viability of Extra-terrestrial if not extra-stellar entities "drawing blood, and tagging" us. If a species has advanced to the stage of interstellar travel, they are far beyond our conceptions of medical procedures. Samples would be inserted, or taken, without ANY knowledge of those from whom the samples are taken. (read Michio Kaku's "Hyperspace: A Scientific Odyssey Through Parallel Universes, Time Warps,and the 10th dimension" to learn more about Civilization Types) We as humans are classified as a type 0 civilization

(further explanation in this video. Remember we are type 0. Type 3 or 4 would be who is visiting US...
Michio Kaku Civilization Types Video )

Which means our Medicine is SO primitive we cannot even survive in our OWN Atmosphere (read higher LEVELS of atmosphere). To compare Technological advances of a type 0 civilization to a type 3 or above civilization is Inconceivable. Watch the video above to SEE why this is undeniably impossible for the human mind to perceive. We are but children in a universe of ancients. While one may claim that extra-terrestrials have abducted them, claims alone do not provide viable proof that "Alien Abduction are a realphenomenon". A phenomenon yes. But not a REAL phenomenon.

My Opponents goal in this debate is to steer you AWAY from the KEY WORD in our topic of debate. REAL. Phenomenon are NOT REAL they are perceived. As such this is a topic that truly cannot be debated beyond the basic "your wrong, I'm right" argument. As long as the word REAL is in the topic of this debate evidence of extra-terrestrial involvement in these incidences MUST be provided. Without such it leaves the topic in the field of paranormal or phenomenon.



My opponent admits... said there was a 1% chance of an asteroid hitting Earth, that doesn't require 99 of them to pass by us first.


While I state things are possible, it does not make them realistic. The topic of debate here is REALISM. for this to be a REAL phenomenon Evidence must be provided that this is "Being or occurring in fact or actuality; having verified existence; not illusory;". One's claims are not enough proof. 'therapist' regressions are not verified proof, they have no validity except to the patient or the therapist.

The Scientific community ignores these beliefs not out of fear of exploration, but out of lack of scientific evidence that these incidences have occurred. In the above statement my opponent tries to make a point about the probability of abductions being even slightly on par with that of a lottery. I must state I made a mistake in using the lottery as an example. Lottery's are won (not daily... but eventually), so let us use another example. The probability of a alien abduction occurring is the same as the probability of a Nigerian email scammer actually sending you a check for millions of dollars that actually has a payment in the bank for it.

Scientists continue to watch an asteroid with one percent probability of impact because they have physical evidence that this is a probable occurrence, (there is a giant rock nearing us... we know the planets orbital path of the sun... as such we can predict that this is a probability worth truly watching.) This is not the case with abductions. A Few fringe scientists accept abduction as if it were a realistic possibility, but they do not utilize the scientific method of producing/procuring/finding evidence that these events actually occurred. Scientific speculation makes nothing fact.



Ever take a cat to a vet for shots and a check up?


For one to compare the utilization of invasive techniques (firstly the simple fact that such an advanced species cannot seem to be capable of erasing a few hours of memories from our minds, yet they are capable of interstellar/intergalactic/inter dimensional travel {also known as type 3-5 civilizations}) with causing mass panic, is reaching at best. Trapping testing and probing are not necessary in advanced civilizations. a type 5 could easily want it, and there it is... No contact required. This is even hard for me to understand because we are talking about scientific reasoning that is LIGHT YEARS beyond our comprehension of science. But if you watch the video above you will see this is the belief held by the most advanced scientists of our time.
Yes I have taken my cat to the vet for a check up... had I been capable of utilizing ALL of the means available to us in modern medicine I could have hid a pill in my cats food, waited for her to fall asleep, load her into her carrier, drive to appointment, and return home in time for her to be placed back where she fell asleep, without her knowing a thing. Would she be able to be hypnotized to remember what happened during this experience... NO. she would assume that nothing out of the ordinary happened.

This is NOT the case with abductees. They recall something to do with an odd situation, (lucid dreaming being the most scientific explanation) and seek 'help' from 'professionals' that steer them towards what they want to hear. it is the same bait and switch pulled by master illusionists and 'psychics' since the 16th century. Houdini is the LAST great debunker of these occurrences, but it seems Penn and Teller are moving themselves into position to take over the reins. With their Showtime show "BullS***" which is their homage to Houdini's drive to stop the general public from being 'humbugged' by these con artists. All of these claims come down to a person falling for the humbug these Illusionists/psychics are selling, even today.


dear reader the debate is fairly simple, and left in your hands for decision. Do you prefer to leave out the term real, and ignore the actual topic of debate? Or do you prefer to take the debate topic by it's literal meaning?

Since I am out of Characters. I yield the floor BACK to F.T.I.

[edit on 18-2-2008 by The Vagabond]



posted on Feb, 18 2008 @ 11:01 PM
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Semantics, I am proving that the phenomenon is real, not the alien abduction itself.

If it was intended for me to prove aliens existence, and alien abductions in this debate, well, I wouldn't be in this debate, I would be rich from the pure fact of being the only person in the world with direct and irrefutable evidence of alien existence and alien abductions. If this was my real duty, then, I would have no shot at even attempting a debate on this matter.

Instead, I merely need to show that this so called alien abduction phenomenon is something that exists in our society. That people have claimed this, and by psychological examination, this is in fact real to them (not an intentional hoax), and that there are real people out there that truly claim this has happened to them, opposed to making up names of people who do not exist. My opponent has given you the names of people for me. They have stated that the existence of aliens is probable, then, asks you to believe that there is no chance they would abduct us.

Now, I respect the argument of 'trained' historians who make claims to know what ancient cultures meant. Truth is, they are guessing. When you see a drawing of a bipedal with what appears as a helmet on top of their shoulders, then claim it was a tiki god, it is most likely an explanation that fits to our current view of the world. Where do they learn this view of the world? Through all those years of school that taught them to think inside boundaries. Good thing not everyone did that, especially the likes of Isaac Newton and Albert Einstein.

Let us say that a catastrophe happened and we lost power world wide. Paper will decay over time. If you were to draw the things we have, we seen, we have done in stone and on walls ... do you not think that future advanced civilizations would consider us a bunch of crazy worshipers of weird birds instead of seeing things as planes ... it all has to do with perspective and how open your mind is.

Even religious texts claim of spirits and beings coming down from the heavens. This is a common theme in not just a few scattered pieces of literature or just in one pyramid or temple. The theme of visitors from the sky is pretty much a common world wide theme, thousands of years ago.



Let me break my opponents main point. That the Hill case was the first documented alien abduction.


An interesting abduction case occurred on October 15-16, 1957. It happened close to a farm at Francisco da Sales (Minais Gerais, Brazil). It is one case where a possible hybridation was performed, featuring a sexual intercourse with a female extraterrestrial.

...

Culturally humble, the story told by Antonio Villas-Boas is perfectly logical and without contredictions. After that night, he suffered of irritations, nervousness, sleeplessness. Dr. Olavo T. Fontès discovered several strange things while examining Villas Boas body. The abductee was exposed to massive amounts of radiation and would experience radiation poisoning for a considerable time. On the area where his blood was taken, the skin lacked in pigment.


Antonio Villas Boas Abduction


So you see, the Hill case wasn't the first abduction case, just the first popularized one. There are reports of many before that as well, but not well documented. This first story of something is not evidence that that something didn't exist prior to the expose.


I am not talking about magic tricks, hypnotic suggestions, or any other fanciful things. I showed clearly that there are many cases that are not just a slight of hand or a witness being led to conclusions, but that a majority of them tested perfectly sane, honest, and straightforward by a group of 100 researchers and mental health professionals.


I never made claims that humans were advanced, in fact, I find we are quite primitive. I think it was rather clear. I stated we are working on lots of technologies, yet, we haven't mastered them. If we have considered them, I stated that an alien race would have been much more advanced in said technologies. I never limited the possibility of their tech being the same as ours, just that we have the concept of things that would make it possible to conduct an abduction as people claim to have been. That you don't have to conceive some imaginary to us device to accomplish it, just working models of current things our own government is trying to create (or has created by the black project standard).

I am glad my opponent mentions Kaku. I admire that man for being one of the more bold in his profession. Very open minded individual. Different time and place in my life and I would take his classes. So, my views don't vary much at all from this brilliant man. In fact, I think humanity would barely qualify for a type 0.


Of course, I hope you all did notice that my opponent admitted to alien abductions being a phenomenon in the paragraph following the Kaku link
Again, resorting to word play ... next let us hear what the definition of is is ... Is it a phenomenon, my opponent says yes, the phenomenon exists. If it exists, therefore, the phenomenon is real.

I think, therefore I am. My mind is real, though I cannot prove it. It is but electrical impulses, as is ANY sense you claim to experience. Your reading this is but electrical impulses to your brain. If these people have experienced something, it was as real to them as is the feeling of you clicking the star for me on this post.

Professionals found they were not lying about the experiences, yet, since they didn't have a Polaroid handy when being abducted, we are suppose to discount their honest memory of the event. It was real to them. As far as they are concerned, it happened. The phenomenon does exist, it is real.


Now, my opponent has switched to something that has no probability of happening, a dishonest scam. Ignoring the fact that the study I linked to shown that almost all of those people were being honest. The argument my opponent gives is then invalid. That is like saying that there is a chance the movie on the sidewalk of NYC that also just came out in theaters isn't a bootleg. When dealing with dishonest people, don't expect honesty.

On the other hand, science itself shows that by the sheer numbers, there must be life out there, and again, sheer numbers dictate that there will be intelligent life, some less, some more advanced than we are. The Milky Way consists of approximately 100 billion stars. Some galaxies are much bigger, some are smaller, but for calculation's sake, let us assume this is the average. In 99, it was estimated to be at least 125 billion galaxies. So, 12,500,000,000,000,000,000,000 (1.25 x 10^22 or 12.5 sextillion) estimated stars in the known universe. You can see even at a very rare occurrence, there could still be quite a few space faring creatures out there. If only one out of a billion stars had life on a planet, and only one out of a billion of those were advanced ... that still leaves 125,000 advanced civilizations in the known universe by harsh statistics. Of course, those are estimations, so there could be more or less, probably more of a chance, since we see further and further out as our technology advances. This also takes into account that life must exist as we know it ... if it doesn't, then the odds become much, much better than this.


Next, my opponent figures that if they did abduct, they would have to know how to erase the minds of a species they were abducting to study! As if they could know how our bodies and brains work from the trip over. By the claims of abductees, it sounds like they might try though! And to claim to know that inter-dimensional travel takes the need for any hands on learning is quite a leap. We have no way to assume anything about their level 5 civilization technology. Maybe things like solar wind, magnetic fields, and electrical charges makes scanning from space while cloaked a bit of a challenge, even if the technology can handle traveling through it. Maybe they abduct to verify their scan results? Of course, I am not an alien, and haven't been contacted, so I cannot know. But I can speculate with the best of them


Drugging your cat has been scientifically proven with years of study, while alien abductions would be done on life forms they are still learning about. How would they assume their sedatives wouldn't kill the subject? Notice how a lot have missing periods of time, were conscious and not. It seems that maybe they did try to keep them sedated/unconscious, but, it didn't work as they suppose. In fact, buy your own reason, they could possibly be abducting many more, but their methods work better. We have found ourselves that people are waking from anesthesia and are lucid during surgeries, even the doctors didn't know, but the patient could recall things they would have had to been awake for.

The assumption that an advanced civilization is infallible is not correct. Intelligence and technology never equals perfection.

I admit, some abductees are led astray, or just had a weird feeling that was coaxed into something to further some nutjobs career, but that isn't all of the cases. Some remember very specific things.


Again, my opponent slipped up and agreed with me, claiming: without proof of aliens, this leaves the subject in the paranormal or phenomenon.

Again, they try to say I am steering away from the topic, but I am only debating that the phenomenon is real ... as it clearly states.

Read the first line of The Vagabond's post and realize for yourself who is trying to misdirect the reader ... does it say 'Alien Abductions are Real'? or Alien Abductions are a Real Phenomenon'

I think the choice is clear, as well as it is clear that my argument fits the topic better.

Pass back to coven



posted on Feb, 19 2008 @ 10:20 PM
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I have stated fairly clearly that evidence is all that is needed. FreeThinkerIdealist has yet to respond with ONE PROVEN piece of evidence of alien abductions. While this may be a tall order to fill, it is what is required to prove that Alien Abductions are a REAL phenomenon.

Now F.T.I. has ignored my questions and continued on with this assault on my use of grammatical structure to validate my argument. This IS a Non-Debate. I'm sorry to say, but I was placed on the winning side.

Since my Opponent feels it necessary to belittle me for utilizing the proper meanings of words in the English language with statements such as "the meaning of is is" I will take the high road by proving my point once again with another simple definition.

REAL

Adjective.
1. Being or occurring in fact or actuality; having verified existence; not illusory; "real objects"; "real people; not ghosts"; "a film based on real life"; "a real illness"; "real humility"; "Life is real! Life is earnest!"- Longfellow.
emphasis by coven, again.

next let us review the meaning of this word

PHENOMENON

Noun
1. Any state or process known through the senses rather than by intuition or reasoning.
2. A remarkable development.
Now since we obviously need an English lesson to interfere with our debate lets make this brief.

In Brief a "Real Phenomenon" which is the key phrase of our topic of discussion "Are Alien Abductions a Real Phenomenon", literally translates to "Being In actuality, having a verified existence, proven through the senses rather that the intuition or reasoning". There is NO validity to your argument that a person PERCEIVING something DOES FIT THIS MEANING. It is not a matter of semantics, it is a matter of you have ignored the term real in this entire topic. if you will go back and read my first response you will see that I AM in fact willing to debate how real they are, or aren't. but you keep steering back to the meanings of words. So to respond to the parts that actually matter to this debate now.



While you claim that test prove that someone believes they were abducted, does not produce evidence of an abduction. One only has to look at the scenario to Realize that there is no evidence due to the fact that these abductions are not really occurring. They are either implanted, or seeded memories.

I state that the existence of aliens is probable, but biological experimentation is SOOOOOO Type -0 Civilizations...


You see, it comes down to any civilization that would be interested in studying us is VERY VERY far from here. They are allowed to travel here because they have become SO peaceful that they can focus on science instead of war. While our world is in a stalemate we are making more and more scientific advances faster and faster(Though it is seeming that the war on terrorism is starting to hurt the speed of these advances), but as I stated earlier, These advances would not even compare with the technology available to the aliens. These species would be so advanced OBSERVATION alone would be enough to perform complex surgical procedures; NOT probing, blood sampling, reproductive fluid sampling, implanting and tagging. These are EXTREMELY primitive procedures, especially considering that highly successful surgical medicine has only existed for 80 years (if that...). As you can see, the claims alone are easily dismissed because of
a) the lack of evidence.
and
b) the fact that the knowledge of physics, biology, and astronomy required to travel from even one galaxy to another would exceed our own knowledge by hundreds if not thousands of years. These Idea's of travel are unfathomable, to our basic idiotic type 0 brains... why would their biological skills still be based off of 1000(if not 10,000+) year old technology?

you see, you are arguing that aliens would be stupid... bumbling and inexperienced enough to leave contaminant's and signs of their presence. I believe they are much more capable of seeing everything they would need to know from our outer atmosphere (if not much much further away) much less without needing to implant odd metal pellets (that look like metal shavings, and have no extra planetary materials within them... and most of these materials ARE found in the human body naturally)

While you may list the First abduction you could find do us all a favor and do a simple google search...

as you can see by clicking the link, the most popular yes. Why? Because Mr. Villas was 23 years old, had no other witnesses, had no evidence whatsoever (where are the records of this radiation... embellishments tend to swell stories in small towns...[or youthful minds]) and a simple review of you link reveals the alien was a hot busty blonde bombshell (image www.ufopsi.com...) wow... that really looks like an alien female to me. I guess a blonde Betty Page decided to start abducting young men to rape them now?


you see, the Hill case is popularized as the first case because the case you provided steers only the most LUDICROUS of researchers to it. Hell, I wouldn't even touch that story with a ten foot pole... Well except maybe for a good laugh...
Meanwhile Betty and Barney's Aliens Looked completely different, had a different temperament, dragged them through the woods, and treated them like cattle. Another validation of my points. To many different occurrences, First there are claims of Mean greys(Betty and Barney Hill to the 60's{fire in the sky}), then a Movie called Close Encounter of the Third Kind Came out... Then the Grey's got taller, and more attractive (compared to Betty and Barney's anyways) and were always nice and showing people the galaxy... And well... The Nordics seem to only be sex freaks... Didn't Billy Meier's 'contacts (
) want him to swap partners? (or was I just hoping that was the next page?)


Seriously, there are just TOO many issues with the topic of Alien abductions and the reality of them. They are a Paranormal Phenomenon, not a REAL Phenomenon.

I mentioned Kaku to make my point that any advanced (read space traveling) civilization would be far beyond our own comprehension of science... I believe you should watch the video again... LISTEN to what Mr. KAKU says about type 2-3 civilizations... It proves my point in and of itself. Aliens would not use our 'barbaric' modern medicine. all techniques would be non-invasive as to not upset the heard. This is never the case.



Professionals found they were not lying about the experiences, yet, since they didn't have a Polaroid handy when being abducted, we are suppose to discount their honest memory of the event. It was real to them. As far as they are concerned, it happened. The phenomenon does exist, it is real.


I dismissed your study because belief in something does not prove reality. If so why aren't Mohammed, Buddha, Yahweh, Jesus, And Krishna killing each other? Why can't we see them fighting? Obviously there real... PEOPLE BELIEVE IN THEM... Fox Mulder says it best... "I Want TO BELIEVE... but I Trust NO ONE"... EVIDENCE IS A KEY TO PROVING YOUR POINT... PROVIDE SOME!


I will let you finish for me... You put it best....


Read the first line of The Vagabond's post and realize for yourself who is trying to misdirect the reader ... does it say 'Alien Abductions are Real'? or Alien Abductions are a Real Phenomenon'



REAL
Adjective.
1. Being or occurring in fact or actuality; having verified existence; not illusory; "real objects"; "real people; not ghosts"; "a film based on real life"; "a real illness"; "real humility"; "Life is real! Life is earnest!"- Longfellow.
emphasis by coven, again.

and this

PHENOMENON
Noun
1. Any state or process known through the senses rather than by intuition or reasoning.
2. A remarkable development.
emphasis by coven, again.

*hands back the floor*



posted on Feb, 20 2008 @ 01:44 AM
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All things must not meet all criteria of a word's definition. Such as the word forum.

I have not belittled my opponent in any way; but it is not a fair ploy to try to play a victim when they obviously feel they have no chance at winning. They say I am steering towards the meaning of words, but my repeating of my definitions is only a rebuttal to my opponents. I only made the Presidential reference as a light-hearted joke of the situation.

Phenomenon is a word used to describe many things without physical substance. I have used direct references to my definitions, but limited them to stay within rules of allowable lines of quotes and links.

My opponent begs to argue that my explanation doesn't fit their definition, well, that is true, but it does fit a definition.

I can show where it states that in physics, a phenomenon may be a feature of energy ... an example; our bodies' signals and brain work through energy.

There are abductions that cannot be disproved. It may not be direct evidence, but it is more compelling than calling them all misguided and loons.

Here is an example of a top 10 list that includes many things without direct supporting evidence, but considered Unexplained Phenomenon none the less: LiveScience: Top 10 Unexplained Phenomenon

This includes things like ESP and Intuition ... even Bigfoot. None of which have any of the 'proof' my opponent so desperately seeks me to discover. As I stated before, this position would not have been even worth the time if I were required to somehow magically prove that not only aliens exist, but prove they have conducted abductions. That would be just as easy as proving the government does it with special secret planes under national security protocol. Either one would make me a multi-millionaire, and I assure you I wouldn't hold back if I had it. It would be all over ATS.

So I have not dodged the issue of real, I just fail to submit to your requirement of proving aliens are real, but instead proved the phenomenon of the experience here and abroad is real.

I don't claim to know the purpose of abduction, that is far beyond my scope, or need of this debate.

I never claimed aliens were stupid, I said intelligence does not equate to infallibility, even computers/machines do not operate with perfection 100%.

All I can say from reading, these people truly believe they have been abducted, and professional mental health practitioners have found them to be of sound mind and not trying to be deceitful.

My opponent has made many claims. They seem to know what aliens' intentions would be, how advanced they are, how peaceful they are, what they can and cannot look like ... it would almost seem as they themselves have been abducted


I also believe that making us seem as un-advanced as they are trying is a bit misleading. We have the ex-head of Lockheed Martin claiming we already have the ability to travel the stars, but it would take an astounding event to be publicly released. Quite a statement from someone who would have known, being the head of a company that makes advanced equipment for the government.

Making claims to how many years in advance another species would be limits the ingenuity of mankind. 150 years ago, how advanced would they say a Lockheed Martin SR-71 blackbird would be? How about the new test planes that are achieving 10x the speed of sound more or less. What about those cars that are achieving around the speed of sound? The Space Shuttle achieves Mach 25, which is quite a feat 25 years ago. Rhetorical questions, not Socratic.

I am new to the Socratic Method, so I slipped up a bit. I have looked up the definition to it, and I shall play by the rules of Socratic Questioning as I have read it to be defined. I in no way ignored the questions, I just didn't label the answers clearly, this was my misunderstanding. I am used to debates that only require free-form communication.

Debate adversary questions:

Question 1: So, following your logic on this topic. If I can stick a wand through my arm in my magic sleeve... Does the wand truly penetrate my arm?

Answer 1: Is something that someone views not real to them regardless of what they witness is real or not?

Whether it truly penetrates your arm, the experience for the viewer is real, their senses register it as real, therefore, the total experience to the viewer is a real one.

Question 2: OR is it just an ILLUSION, Implanted into your mind by a magician?

Answer 2: If these senses that you take in show you something, are they not real to you, regardless if the impulses originated in the brain, from an outside source that intentionally led you to believe their actions were real, or a real action itself?

The experience itself is real, the actions can be an illusion, but there is no doubt that the person saw it, and the other person performed it. Holograms are real, though you cannot touch them, smell them, taste them ... they are a real image and product that sells for real money.


My Questions:

Question 1: Is not reality but a combination of the signals (electrical impulses) in your brain (created in and/or sent there from the other senses)?

Schizophrenics experience real voices in their head, just as you can hear yourself think, have a memory of someone-you-care-about's voice. The signals are real, but their brain has deteriorated and have lost the ability to tell the memory signal from the audio signal from the ear. The experience they have is a real one, so even if an abductee is having an experience relegated only within their brain, if the accompanying signals are not there to separate reality and fantasy, then the experience itself becomes a real one, a personal phenomenon ... defined by an unusual occurrence perceived through a person's mind. But again, note that the people in the test I linked to in a prior post found only one of the subjects to be mentally instable, which means the rest were not schizophrenic, therefore were not suffering from those 'real' delusions.

Question 2: If our brain's electrical signals are our only connection with reality versus imagination, and what we experienced felt as it came from our senses, not a dream, then is it not a real experience, or are we to deny everything we experience as possibly not being real?

If you take one of the most heated debates on ATS, you have two sides to an argument, both believe what the other believes in an illusion. There is not adequate proof to support either side as it is explained, yet they both perceive their explanation to be the only REAL one. What we believe to be real now, could end up being the illusion and vice versa. It is real to both opposing parties regardless of which one is the illusion (official theory vs conspiracy theory). I am not trying to distract this by mentioning, but most who frequent here should already know, the concept is good enough for the point.

Question 3: Do you equate all forms of therapy and counseling to amount to nothing more than illusions and tricks, not someone with empathy and a sense of caring for humanity ... that every shrink is a quack?

If you take any decent sample of workforce, you will find there are bad apples in the bunch, but labeling all those in a profession as the bad apples becomes more serious, in the line of profiling/stereotyping. All politicians are not liars, all lawyers are not crooks, and all psychiatrists are not manipulators. There are some that do things for notariaty and personal gain, but then there are plenty who are content with who there are and what they have, and truly want to help people or find the truth. These people do not lead the patient on the path they desire, but question their patients as they would a child in abuse (or worse) cases. If they were to lead the child, then it becomes inadmissible. Therefore there is proof of people in the profession who's utmost duty is not to lead their patients into saying things or down any course.


My case predates the Hill case, and that would tend to mean it was the first regardless of what a google search says ... as you see here, these cannot agree on this 'first' in history google search. My opponent is starting to reach by making things laughable unless it conforms to their views. Age is not a factor, there are 18 year olds serving honorably in the military. Insists that variety of alien species is a point to disprove, even when the concept of multiple species co-existing is not a new one.

The Hill case is irrelevant. They are not the only case. It is actually disinformation to hinge an entire belief on one example, when there are many, many others who have claimed their own experiences. Even if the Hill case was a farce (which it hasn't been proved so), that doesn't automatically discredit all others thereafter.

Omitting a definition doesn't take its ability to be used away.

The phenomenon is real, as opposed to me saying bees turning to alligators is an interesting phenomenon.

People experience alien abduction. It qualifies as an unusual occurrence, a perceived event within the mind.


an exceptional, unusual, or abnormal person, thing, or occurrence

In philosophy, the use of the word phenomenon differs from other uses in that it refers to perceived events. Phenomena may be perceived through a person's senses or with their mind.


Again, taken from my opening post with links. My opponent defined the same words twice, but claims I am the one over-defining. Reaching for straws perhaps?



posted on Feb, 20 2008 @ 10:20 PM
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It is fine for my opponent to trust a page edited by anyone on the internet (wiki), I however used Webster (linky) and a formatted Websters (Linky2) definitions to make my point. Merriam-Websters is renowned for being the best. Anyway, I am a bit tired of the back and forth over the meaning of words... I made my point fairly clear as to the meaning in my last post. But I will state that the definitions I used are WORLD RENOWNED... Not wiki.

My opponent states that "there are abductions that may not be disproved" then IMMEDIATELY admits, there is no evidence... I have yet to call anyone 'abductee' misguided or loony. I have stated fairly clearly that they are the victims of a very profitable business, that feeds off of a rare group of people. I don't not disbelieve their claims out of lack of faith in these people, or their belief that they are being truly honest with themselves. I disbelieve the science, better yet... the LACK of science to these claims.

You see dear reader I have made it clear in my last few posts that you cannot subject this to matters of perception, or faith, or 'wanting' to believe. There has to be substantial evidence. Substantial claims require substantial EVIDENCE. It is not a matter of these people don't have believable intriguing stories... they have no true solid evidence of anything ALIEN... "Alien Abductions Are [NOT] A Real Phenomenon."

If anything more than extremely vivid dreams, they would be implanted memories in most cases. A majority of abductees had to have regression techniques to even recall their abduction and as I stated earlier there is more than enough evidence to prove these regression therapists steer their patients towards they stories they want to believe.

To further prove the point they regressed a lady, and she claimed she was Justine a member of Josephine Bonaparte's court. she was allowed to live in the castle. I ask you a simple question dear audience. Why is no one who is ever regressed just a simple peasant, living off of grains and the occasional scrap of squirrel meat?

Next my opponent shows a link to unexplained phenomenon... All of which fall in this exact category as Alien Abduction. UNEXPLAINED... PARANORMAL... SUPERNATURAL... However, real phenomenon is NOT associated with these occurrences. an experience is not a real phenomenon... only an unexplained phenomenon. which leaves it in the realm of questionable. NOT REAL...

when proof is provided of an abduction (there have been MANY supposed implants But they all end up being earthly materials, nothing out of the ordinary) then we can begin to study, and determine... but we MUST find a starting point for a study for this debate to begin. I have YET to see a starting point. I cannot accept the abduction you posted as reliable based simply on the drawing of the "alien" the abductee created. Not often do beautiful naked women TRULY fall from the sky. Metaphorically maybe...

I have yet to state you need to prove aliens are real. Only abductions. you have yet to prove that ABDUCTIONS ARE REAL... you continue to prove the are an unreal phenomenon.. but not that they are REAL.
thank you for clarifying my point in your last post!

The Claims I have made are based of projections by physicists and scientists known round the world (Kaku being one of em.) of what other alien species would be like, if they existed and how... it's called an educated guess. And the show it was made to produce was an entertaining History Channel production.

My opponent's claim that having the ability to design (but not currently have, or could easily produce) craft that would eventually actually be able to fly to other stars is comparable to any species that would be advanced enough to complete many of the tasks claimed (paralyzing people, teleportation, bending of time...) by abductees is ludicrous. These people have been fooled by a person who is good at manipulating people, or they've had an extremely vivid dream, and can't seem to shake it. Without some form of scientific evidence, there is not enough proof to claim that Alien Abductions are a real phenomenon. An Unexplained Phenomenon YES... Not a Real one.


I am glad to see you have answered. Now let me rebut. If you wish to ignore this part you may, as it mainly directed to our readers anyways.

One cannot CLAIM that magic is real, because someone perceives it as real. Perception is NOT REALITY. As such this claim is laughable at best.

Holograms are a light refraction off of a prism. Fairly simple to figure out. The Prism/Prismatic Card is real, but the hologram itself IS NOT. once again. It is PERCEPTION Vs. Reality. My Opponent argues that Perception is Reality. I submit that Perception IS NOT REALITY. Evidence is ALWAYS necessary.


Question 1 Response:
No it is not. We do not live in the matrix. All that you see you are actually seeing. Now when it comes to errors in our programming, sometimes special people (heck another abductee explanation) have issues that cause them to hallucinate, hear thing, heck even smell things that aren't there. While these people are out there I promise you they are the exception to the rule.

[question 2 responses:
I disagree with your statements here. Imagination is not reality, it is a conglomerate of our memories. Second part, something can't 'Feel' Sensory. it either is or isn't. It is reality or it isn't. Like this debate. I continue to ask you for proof of the the REALITY of this topic, and you keep saying the PERCEPTION is enough... It is NOT. proof it still required. ANYTHING EVEN SLIGHTLY RESEARCHABLE WILL DO.
so to answer the end of your question... if one wishes to deny everything they experience is real, one will eventually land in the mental hospital,or worse. Reality is not perception. Perception is a viewpoint. Everyone has a different viewpoint. As such, to declare something real scientific research must come to an agreement; and the world embraces this thing as reality.

question 3 Response:
No. I believe Psychiatry and Psychology by licensed practitioners can be very useful, but those that only claim to be licensed in this field, (and even if they are, do not utilize the Hippocratic oath by focusing on Holistic and NEW AGE treatments) and aren't however I hold a strong distaste for.

I have no qualms with calling all regressionists charlatans. And the ONLY doctor I have ever heard of that will do the unnecessary surgery required to remove a 'supposed' implant is the Dr. I mentioned Earlier. You see there ARE certain professions that are known for making money off of fooling people. Regressionists, Tarot Readers, Psychics in general, magicians, Unlicensed podiatric surgeons... I could go on but I digress. One must prove themselves to be respectable in such professions... and I have yet to see a respectable person involved in them.

Next my opponent claims that a Google search for discovery of America (a LONG debated topic) is even comparable. While you may have found a claim that predated that of the hill's claims, but it obviously was not chosen to be considered to be the first by the "Experts" on the topic. My Search returns 4 pages (I stopped after 20 straight results) of information on the Hill's Abduction story. I would say my claim is still Valid.



en.wiktionary.org...

your source is correct. Nice that you state

Omitting a definition doesn't take its ability to be used away


yet



Noun

Singular
phenomenon


Plural
phenomena

phenomenon (plural phenomena)

1. The existential reality of "something"; not "nothing".

The universe is a phenomenon, as is every particle of matter within it; that which is non-phenomenal does not exist because it is noumenon.

2. An appearance or occurrence, usually one evoking curiosity.

you left this part off of your external link...


3. A fact or situation that is observed to exist or happen but is unexplainable or questionable.


and you have also omitted the definition of the word "Real"! amazing the double standard.

I claim you are over defining, because you have yet to put debatable evidence on the table, we have now spent the entire debate minus closing statements focusing on the TRUE meaning of terms. Philosophical meanings don't count. This is language and words do have a set meaning.
Alien Abductions Are NOT a Real Phenomenon. They are Unexplained, Paranormal, experiences at best.

I yield the floor to your closing statement F.T.I.



posted on Feb, 21 2008 @ 12:27 AM
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The phenomenon exists, therefore it is real. There have been plenty of cases over time, those of which cannot be debunked. It has been shown at least a segment of the people claiming abduction have been honest, and at least in the court of law in my country, an honest testimony counts for something, even to the point of convicting criminals from crimes from their eye witness accounts and experiences, even to the point the death penalty can be issued for the criminal.


I have not being going back and forth over the definition of words, just trying to keep things on track. My rebuttals have only been to show that there isn't one choice for a word's definition.

The use of Wiki is one that is free to all users and well known. It doesn't require a subscription, or you to own a particular dictionary. Other sources online are great too. I would have used a Britannica source, but, you have to pay for it, and that isn't fair to the reader.

If anyone read my first post, they would see I used a Webster definition, to claim otherwise is a mistake, the post wasn't read by my opponent, or they are being intentionally misleading. I will say it must be the first one, since I try to have good faith in others as much as I can.

Yes, Wiki allows user edits, but, if things are false they quickly are removed and the person warned. It is watched by moderators and the people who use it. New entries automatically get flagged for review. It is not as if there are any articles calling Hitler the McDonald's Hamburgerler, and I would like to be pointed to incorrect definitions that have lasted any length of time.

Also note that the Wiki has very similar definitions as the ones from other sources. Articles have cited sources and when new things are added, there is a note that a citation is needed. These facts show that although not a perfect source, it is not the same as picking one of the fancy papers by a checkout talking about bat babies and monkey boys.


I contend I only have to qualify for one specific definition for a word.

So here is my defintion for Real (not from Wiki):


5. Not to be taken lightly; serious: in real trouble.


TheFreeDictionary

Alien abduction is a (not to be taken lightly) phenomenon.

I think we all would agree, any form of abduction is serious and not to be taken lightly, no matter if it is an alien from space, an illegal alien, a disgruntled divorced parent, or a psychotic individual.


Another non-Wiki definition of phenomenon:


2. pl. phe·nom·e·nons
a. An unusual, significant, or unaccountable fact or occurrence;


FreeOnlineDictionary

Again, consistent with what I have shown before. (2 links same domain = 1 reference as to avoid any confusion)

Alien abductions are a (not to be taken lightly) (unusual or unaccountable occurance).


I need not make my point fit every definition, as that is not possible in most things. If I were to speak of the definition of a quadrilateral or a parallelogram ... and I were to speak of one of their definitions being a square and use that as an example. It is not logical to try and force the square to fit other definitions of a quadrilateral, such as a trapezoid, or a parallelogram such as a rhombus. Fitting one definition is quite enough to qualify the square, and in fact, the other definitions are irrelevant to this particular definition.

My duty is not to show that I fit into my opponent's select definitions, but that it fits in at least one definition. I have shown this to my respected adversaries dismay.


This has nothing to do with faith, wanting to believe, or the rare case of manipulated witnesses. There are plenty of scientifically studied cases that cannot be shown to have been misled or falsifying their claims. This has been part of my case the whole time. There is a strange occurance of people who claim to have been abducted. Their evidence is their testimony.

If normal civilian testimony isn't enough, what about a police officer?


The case of the Ilkley Moor alien is one of the most controversial cases of alien abduction ever recorded in the U.K. because of the circumstances surrounding the event. At odds is the wide spread disbelief in alien abductions and the two very damning facts purporting it: the Ilkley Moor abductee was a police officer, expected to be an expert eyewitness, and the photograph of what he claims is the entity he encountered.


The Ilkley Moor Alien Abduction (reference 2)

There is a picture in this link that shows an 'alien'. It is evidence, but too grainy for most skeptics to use as irrefutable proof. The compass is also evidence, because the required devices needed to accomplish the pole reversal was not available at the time for that location, and it was examined by the Manchester's Institute of Science and Technology. He only went under hypnotic suggestion after the original account, and only to recount the missing time. It even goes to pointing out regression therapy has been used in the court of law to convict criminals, just as my argument is about honest testimony without hypnotic regression.


People do have past life regressions as peasants, but instead of searching before making a claim, some people make the claim and provide it as fact unless someone takes the time to prove them wrong.


Occasionally I had "flashes" of peasant life in China, and knew that once I had led a very impoverished rural existence as a woman.


Past Life Memories (reference 3)


Just because a phenomenon is unexplained, doesn't make it less real. Most of our universe is unexplained, in fact, now they say it cannot be seen as well, but it is accepted as real ... dark matter, dark energy, anti-matter. This is all consider real unexplained phenomenon, even though we can't see it, it exists. We know it must be there because otherwise the galaxies don't have enough mass to stay together. Well, the testimony exists of abductions from real people, who claim the experience was real, and some of them have real evidence, it just depends on how far you push the skeptical envelope for undeniable proof. The evidence exists, but it rests in the realm of plausible deniability for those who wish to dismiss it.


I did not claim we have the ability to design a craft to travel the stars I stated something that anyone can search on their own, that David Sereda, former head of Lockheed Martin's Skunkworks said that we have the ability to travel the stars, it is locked up in black projects, and anything you can dream we already have. Paraphrased of course, since I have hit my limit for source links. Anyone with a search engine can verify this, and it has been covered in ATS forums before. The speech was made in 1993. Quite a beautiful and depressing statement all in one if you look it up.


Again, my opponent resulted to defaming the character of the abductees, calling them easily fooled, manipulated, and dream so vividly they cannot tell the difference ... blanketing all people, though having no personal contact with them, in the same categories. That their opinion is by far more trustworthy than health professionals conducting a study on individuals with researchers present, who had hands on experience, and found these people to be credible and rational.


All holograms are not the bonus ones from baseball card decks of the 90s. In fact there were stereogram and holographic games in the early and late 90s. It produced a 3D image in open space, not the impression of a 3D image. It may not be physical, but it is a real image.


If you are 'mal-programmed', then how would you know? If you smell something, and you are alone, is that smell really there without someone to verify it for you? Do all things you see, hear, smell, taste need to be verified? What about your thoughts? Are they real? Whatever impulses that your brain interprets is real to you. I have even known people to have group hallucinations, so now, if it is verified by others, but I don't see it, then who sees reality and who sees fantasy. Luckily, our world doesn't put us in this situation too often. If I feel a shiver, it is real? There was impulses that made a path through my body, but there was no outside influence ... constant temperature, nothing physical grazing my skin, but it felt like a real touch.

I assure you my search for the first abduction case was a first page result, I believe it was in the top 5. Multiple searches, different engines, give different results. But, if you were trying to find the answer to a problem, would you stop in the first 5 or 20 attempts? Probably not. The right answer isn't always the most popular or agreed upon one. How long did science consider the earth the center of the universe under consensus, and the ones who disagree were chastised? For quite a while.


Overall, alien abduction is a common subject, nearly anyone you speak to will have heard of it. Some believe they are real, some don't. Some see the evidence as proof, some claim it is hooey. A lot of evidence and testimony that cannot be refuted point to it being real. Not only that, it is a phenomenon that exists in modern society, evidence points to it occurring in past societies (though relegated as gods, and fiction, as it is today).

In the end, I have qualified my argument using definitions from multiple sources.

Alien abductions are a real phenomenon.
Alien abductions serious, unaccountable occurrence.
Alien abductions are a unusual account, not to be taken lightly.


Thank you coven for a fun debate, the readers for taking the time, and The Vagabond for putting out all the effort to run it.



posted on Feb, 21 2008 @ 02:25 AM
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coven originally posted

REAL
Adjective.
1. Being or occurring in fact or actuality; having verified existence; not illusory; "real objects"; "real people; not ghosts"; "a film based on real life"; "a real illness"; "real humility"; "Life is real! Life is earnest!"- Longfellow.

PHENOMENON
Noun
1. Any state or process known through the senses rather than by intuition or reasoning.
2. A remarkable development.

In Brief a "Real Phenomenon" which is the key phrase of our topic of discussion "Are Alien Abductions a Real Phenomenon", literally translates to "Being In actuality, having a verified existence, proven through the senses rather that the intuition or reasoning.



You see ladies and gentlemen, the entire Debate here is whether or not Alien Abductions are a REAL Phenomenon. While Phenomenal or Fantastic, Abductions are more of a fantasy than a reality. Yes there are claims, but many of these claims were enhanced by people who WANT thee abductee to have memories of abductions (read specialist "regressionist" or "hynosis" therapists, who only deal in the Extra-terrestrial).

The Implants found are mainly found and believed to be implants by a man named Dr. Roger Lier Hailed as A "Scientist" and A "Surgeon" by the likes of whitley strieber (one of his former clients), yet he is only legally licensed to practice podiatry in the state of California.

Last I had heard of him he a pending malpractice lawsuit from the medical board in California for practice "unnecessary surgeries". These people and their intentions are QUESTIONABLE at best. And they are Definitely profitable... AS LONG as people keep "getting" abducted.

While My opponent passionately believes that they are in the right by claiming this as a Phenomenon, the above definitions prove this to not be true. It Must be able to be validated. It cannot just exist in intuitions and reasonings. As such it is NOT a phenomenon. It is a Paranormal Experience:

paranormal
noun
not scientifically explainable
a good synonym of this word would be SUPERNATURAL. SPIRITUAL. RELIGIOUS.


The possibility of this paranormal experience is something I won't refute. But I will state there is NO REAL EVIDENCE TO MAKE THIS A PHENOMENON! It is an interesting story, and a fun topic to read about here on ATS but to look at it from a SCIENTIFIC perspective, REQUIRES Removal of "Blind Faith" beliefs.

This means without any evidence these stories, even in the hundreds, aren't enough because no evidence is EVER obtained.When people think they have found evidence, it turns out to be naturally occurring incidences such as sleep walking, Working on a project, focusing distracts you from minor dings and scraps, there are many explanations.

Being at work focused on your task and not even remembering hitting the hammer on your ankle or heel hard enough to leave a mark, but in the morning it's there. All Implants (evidence I HAVE PROVIDED) have been proven to be nothing more than naturally occurring materials, and most seemed to be the result of my "in the zone" explanation for people who work with metal (filing, shaving shaping etc).


I hate to say it but witness testimony without physical evidence is considered circumstantial evidence and MOST judges won't allow the testimony to be considered in the trial. If physical evidence could be provided that there was indeed some for of Alien/Extra Terrestrial Contact (while I agree my opponent has found some intriguing abductees) I believe his examples are all clearly a bit lacking in the physical Evidence department.

The photo is extremely sketchy.

While I won't dismiss the mans word but he hasn't presented any form of evidence except for a blurry picture. Sometimes really good people do stupid things when they need money. I hate to say it, but SOME people do need to sell a story. It's ok, because we know how to determine the truth. Scientific Reasoning.

While I hate to offend any religious people here, this is TRULY a MATTER OF FAITH Vs. FACT... You cannot assume that because you have FAITH in these stories, you do not have to have facts that validate these claims. This keeps one from having as my opponent said earlier "an open mind".

One must look past this issue of FAITH that aliens want to TAKE PEOPLE AWAY... This is just like the idea of going to heaven, and being in the embrace of god. Or whatever you were raised to believe. It is a COMFORT for a culture SO primitive that we cannot keep from killing each other. I DO BELIEVE ALIENS ARE OUT THERE.

But I think If I were them... I sure wouldn't come here. We still kill each other, and we justify our murders in the name of ancient rituals to ancient gods. We don't respect one another, we don't respect our planet. We are literally a parasite to our planet. We have worked over our planet, and as a human I could understand why ANY alien species would fly past us and state something like "Lock the doors, and buckle up lauuurkichuk... were in the BAD part of the galaxy". And they would be right.

While My opponent has presented valid arguments for the possibility of abductions, and even people that claim to have been abducted, he cannot produce one witness with some form of evidence of their abduction.
Betty and Barney hill had evidence. It was recently tested In the
The History Channel Show Ufo Hunters: Abduction Episode , along with an 'implant' that the Hosts had removed from an abductee, who seemed totally legit...

Yet the implant came back 100% earth based materials, and 1%biologically created materials (as in human body process created materials... tissue growths etc.) Betty's dress, which was supposedly covered in pink powder, had no residue of Anything non earth based. The dress was torn and looked stretched... BUT no evidence of an alien presence. While this is an intriguingly debatable topic, it all comes down to scientific reasoning. Until the Physical evidence is FINALLY found... This falls in the realm of the paranormal.

While FreeThinkerIdealist is speaking from the heart, this is not an issue of the heart, it is an issue of the mind.

Faith, Heart.

Mind, Science.

These are facts. Scientific research requires focusing on the aspects of REAL PROOF, or REAL EVIDENCE; as opposed to "taking a few hundred people at their word" or taking single story tellers at their word, no true evidence has ever come forth. As Such,
SCIENTIFICALLY there is NO POSSIBLE WAY THAT "Alien Abductions are a Real Phenomenon"

In Closing Ladies and Gentlemen I thank you for viewing this debate between myself, and my opponent FreeThinkerIdealist.

I thank My Opponent for the Heated(and highly enjoyable) Debate, and May the Best Member Win!



posted on Feb, 24 2008 @ 06:51 PM
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Great work gentlemen. It's in the hands of the judges now.



posted on Feb, 26 2008 @ 01:46 PM
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Coven has won the debate. Judge's comments:


FreeThinkerIdealist pretty much abandoned the topic by trying to argue on semantics that he only had to prove that people thought they had been abducted. I think the topic was pretty clear when it said "real phenomenon".



FreeThinker had his moments- the allusion to the drake equasion and the points about their inexperience with humanity making it unlikely that they could completely erase minds, as well as the point that we just plain don't know enough about their technology to make conclusions about what is and isn't possible for them. Unfortunately that was outweighed by Coven's quick start and consistently strong arguments based on the history of UFO lore. The balance could have been tipped if FreeThinker had come up with a better pre-hill abduction: humanoids in overalls seemed questionable.



posted on Feb, 26 2008 @ 01:51 PM
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I read this and will say: Great job, both of you.

FreeThinker: Dont be put off from debates by this loss. You´re a great debater.



posted on Feb, 26 2008 @ 02:48 PM
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First I wanted to thank the judges and the readers on their decision. I also wanted to thank FreeThinkerIdealist for a very valid and worthy debate. As his opponent I MUST stress that he should DEFINITELY stick to the debate threads!
There was more than one occasion on which I felt I had lost it. I am amazed that I was able to give a winning argument in a debate in which I felt the best either of us were going to do was a stalemate.

Once again, Thank you to the Judges, My MOST WORTHY opponent FreeThinkerIdealist; and of course Vagabond for going through all the work it takes to host these debates!

ATS proven to be the best time and time again!

(now with good members too!)



Coven



posted on Feb, 26 2008 @ 04:26 PM
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This was a fantastic debate and FreeThinker...you have to play in this forum more often....spectacular showing..


Congrats Coven!



posted on Feb, 26 2008 @ 04:34 PM
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I am not put off at all SkyFloating, this is my favorite part of ATS, the other stuff displaces my boredom
Let me get my mind oiled up and a bit more efficient and I will be more of a challenge in the future. I felt I was a bit ... unrefined and my focus in the topics and how I went about things was definitely in need of improvement, plus my mistakes including the opening reply draft, not realizing it posts to the board, sleeping, and losing editing capability ... man did I blow it! So I do feel, coven won from an overall better and more organized effort. Thanks for the vote of confidence.


coven, trying to say I should stay out of the rest of the forums, eh?

Sorry, I just had to
I am glad you kept it up despite your personal stance
It was apparent you were very open-minded about it, but had to argue against it despite that fact. Keep up the good work. Here is to you doing what the New England Patriots couldn't!
Thanks for the support and being a good sport





I didn't feel I had the winning side of an argument (irrespective of my personal views) since you can't prove aliens exist, so how are you to prove abductions exist ... so the only angle that could have a basis in proved existence is the one I chose, which is the phenomenon is well-known to exist, be the actual experience real or fabricated in some form..

I didn't realize the Hill case would weight so heavy on the judges, nor did I think the contemplation of what is and isn't possible for unproved aliens races would be heavily weighed either. I thought the cop case (Ilkey Moore), with the compass and photo would have weighed in more as well, considering most people hold police in high regard, so a statement from a reliable source (who writes detailed reports on every call they make as a living), plus physical evidence (compasses switching polarity not an easy thing to do, and nigh impossible in that year), plus a photo (his camera may have been poor, but the photo and the negative shown to not be tampered with) would have been a bigger deal. I would just have to suppose that the link wasn't read. I suppose the 10 line limit got me, but it is a good rule in general it encourage more debate and less quoting.


Basically, I find the decision fair enough for little old me





I do this for fun, not for competition, not for wins, not to be noticed. Not much reason not to continue participating, but the support is greatly appreciated. It just is a little sad that it will be a while before I get to participate again


I think debates are great ways to stimulate your brain, make you think outside your self-establish boxes, and hopefully both the debaters and the readers grow just from the absorption of different viewpoints, regardless if they agree inside.


It made for good fun and apparently a good show to more than just my mind



Allowing debaters to use all of their available characters was a great thing. Even 10,000 can seem a limit when you have a good opponent that makes you use up those quick with rebuttals, counters, and answers.



I am still a little awed by how much the Hill case makes or breaks abductions for people, and the fact that anyone could have thought there was a chance I could have proved the existence of aliens and abductions



posted on Feb, 26 2008 @ 04:57 PM
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Originally posted by FreeThinkerIdealist
I am still a little awed by how much the Hill case makes or breaks abductions for people, and the fact that anyone could have thought there was a chance I could have proved the existence of aliens and abductions


I know what you mean...I had to try and prove that ancient civilizations had more advanced technology then we do today...


My Second Debate

Shameless plug...



posted on Feb, 26 2008 @ 05:56 PM
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Yep, sometimes we draw the short straw, but it just makes it more fun!

Thanks for your support as well


I also have drawn the short straw by being in the first position every time. For some that is an advantage, to me, the advantage is going second and first isn't really a disadvantage.

Kind of sad really, I haven't won one yet
The first round last tournament was won by the competition no longer posting. SkyFloating beat me in the second round ... coven, see what beating me does for you
Oh well, next time I hope to have a real win





I could go for ancient civilizations having more advanced technology. In a debate that is a tough stance, but intellectually, I find it completely plausible. 800 words, 500 for opening and closing!
What kind of overly-restrictive nonsense is that!!!

More advanced doesn't require metal or technology as we see it or value it today either. Neither does reality disclude the possibility of a quite destructive war that destroyed most of it. Thousands of years can do quite a number on things to tools, structures, and evidence that isn't stone/rock. Metal rusts, things erode and decay. Pointing to the radiation as you did, which appeared as a nuclear blast radius. I didn't see you mention the old tools found in coal, or the metal spheres with equi-distant holes in them in rock millions of years old.

I would have voted for you
but I am quite open-minded. I am sure it is hard for anyone to win in a situation that goes against the mainstream ideas ... and scientists are very certain about their ideas every time until they prove themselves wrong and have to modify it, or ignore something as an 'anomaly' because it is rare and doesn't fit. Finding this pattern over the course of my life led me to see that most science is theory even if presented as fact, therefore, it is best to use the IQ you have been given to formulate your own ideas and theories if it interests you, by how you perceive the evidence.

And ... just because people won't believe it, don't want to hear it, can't open their minds to fathom it, or don't understand it ... doesn't mean the things don't need to be debated, even if no one will listen! Look at those who were killed for going against science and saying the sun was the center of our solar system
Not that I want to necessarily be a martyr for truth in that sense




I find quite a few theories on here that are quickly snubbed, but, if considered with an open mind make a lot of sense. This brings me to the reason I enjoy the debate forum. For a moment, both sides are considered equal to an impartial jury (hopefully). The debate is held to topic, kept impersonal, and ideas are formed with coherency. It makes this one of the best sub-forums on the site. With the level of intelligence of the more intellectual ATS member that reads and/or participates, it also makes it one of the best places on the internet, with people from all backgrounds, countries, and idealologies coming together to discuss topics in a respectful manner.



posted on Feb, 26 2008 @ 06:23 PM
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Originally posted by FreeThinkerIdealist
Yep, sometimes we draw the short straw, but it just makes it more fun!


Absolutely. I have had great experiences trying to learn and teach a position/subject at the same time. I was fairly clueless to the price gouging reality, as I had never found a need to attenuate there. But the process was a excellent.


Originally posted by FreeThinkerIdealist
I find it completely plausible. 800 words, 500 for opening and closing!
What kind of overly-restrictive nonsense is that!!!


Yup. I was kind of worried about how I would fill up a maximum character post after debating with the restrictions in place. Now I find the maximum number of characters to be insufficient at times...



Originally posted by FreeThinkerIdealist
For a moment, both sides are considered equal to an impartial jury (hopefully). The debate is held to topic, kept impersonal, and ideas are formed with coherency.


Agree one hundred percent. Now if only we can get a Scientologist and a member of Anonymous to play along for five rounds in this forum...


Edit for cleaning up sloppy organization and coding...I'm at work



[edit on 26-2-2008 by MemoryShock]





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