So how come the IRS doesn't just send a bill?

Well, star to buddhasystem for correctly answering the question.

The IRS doesn't know everything about your life. We have to tell them about all the income we received during the year that they don't know about. They trust us to do this. This is why the income tax is called "voluntary".

I mean, we all reported that $100 we won on the March Madness bracket pool right? RIGHT?

You reported the cash you received from that yard sale, right? RIGHT?

Of course you did and your government thanks you.

Beyond that, if the IRS billed you, how would you be able to itemize all those awesome deductions that lower your taxable income and decrease your tax burden?

If there's going to be an income tax, I'd rather not trust the IRS to figure-out the bill (refund).



[edit on 7-2-2008 by IAttackPeople]

reply to post by thisguyrighthere


Well said. Well said.

My gripe is that we spend more on "Defense" than all other nations combined. EVERY YEAR. We're so far advanced, no one could catch up to us in a decade. Hell, we spent 25 years developing the F-22 Raptor, are currently in 2 different "war" and it's never flown a single sortie. WTF?!

We could potentially direct the Defense budget to the Deficit every other year for ten years and pay down the National Debt significantly. But no. Every year the Defense Budget gets Larger and Larger.

Basically, the way things are now with taxes, we get less for more.

The IRS does nOT have a RIGHT to take a certain percentage of your life, no matter what form it takes. It is all a scam. It is voluntary, and the IRS knows it. Tnere is NO law that requires a citizen to fill out a form to have withholding taken from his pay; it is a voluntary act, and says so on the IRS forms. The employer is under NO legal obligation to corece these forms, and people who fill them out can withdraw from them voluntarily as well.

If the IRS has some legal right to take a percentage of every Americans labor, there would be a clear and unambiguous law saying so; but all there is , is an illegal 16th amenedment, not ever legally ratified, and some phony IRS CODE , which is a joke.

For example, let us say that Joe Jones raises chickens. He doesn't use cash, he just barters for what he needs with his chickens and their products; eggs,etc. He does not even use cash to any degree and never works for anyone else. His taxes on the land are paid for every year by a friend who takes chickens for the exchange,and so Joe one day sees a big black car pull up and a couple of men in suits get out and tell him that they are from the IRS, and that they are there for their quota of chickens.

They have ' ionformation' the sopurces of which they do not reveal, which they used to determine that Joe raised about 5000 chickens last year and so they want 100 chickens. Is that what the IRS people believe?

Does anyone here really believe that the law allows for the IRS to take a certain percentage of our labor and life? there is NOT!! There is no way that the IRS could claim that a citizen owes them a part of their labors. Would the IRS be able to take Joee to court and insist that he sell his chickens and ruin his life to pay them the cash that they decide is better than reselling the chickens that they would coolect? See how crazy it gets?

But the story is getting down to basics: If they cannot take part of your chickens, they cannot take a part of your pabor, your RIGHT to live as a human being. If someone comes along and says " Hey, youy have to pay me for protection ", they are a crook. The IRS says : Hey, pay us a portion or we will kill you or lock you up". It is extortion, plain and simple. The ' debt ' is never owed to begin with, it is paid out of fear that something bad will happen.

The IRS is basically a bluff. I got a bill from them for the year 2003 a month ago, demanding 4000 some dollars!! What a joke! Of course it was a desperate attempt to intimidate me, and I threw the letter away, as I do all unregistered mail. They knew they were not goingt to pursue me for a year that long ago, but tried anyway....worth a stamp to them, I guess.

When I read the facts, and saw the real law and the history of the matter, I stopped all contact with them and want nothing from them, and will not give them a cent, ever. If they want MY chickens, they had better try and steal them the old fashioned way, because I will never turn them over to a gang of liars and crooks without a fight, ever.

If the average citizen used creative legal ownership measures, one need never worry about some illegal taking of property or money. There are ways of keeping what you have, but bearing no legal responsibility for it. Check with a sharp attorney: Note: If a tax attorney tells you that the law says that we all owe the IRS a debt every year, ask him what law mandates the delivery of the information needed to make a valid determination of debt. There is NO law that mandates that we fill out forms and give money we earn to a gang of liars and thieves. It is all voluntary.

IF you play there game, then you will have to play by their rules, and they have you. BUT, you do NOT have to play. The OMB number at the bottom of a 1040 form is bogus: It MUST have a changing and valid OMB number in order to require the collection of info; so the IRS just prints a phony number at the bottom, leaves it there for years when the rules say it must undergo review and change, and it is a bogus document.

It is all a staged act to get people scared and compliant. The ones who call their bluff usually win. People without resources to be stolen by them usually get left alone. They want publicity and money, and unless they can get both they slink back to their holes in the ground and try to think of new ways of lying to the public.

The attorney in Louisiana that just beat the IRS before a jury summed it up well: When the people hear the actual law, the words that make it up, they understand very well what the drones at IRS do not: Labor is NOT owed to anyone. It belongs to the person that sweats for it, not the lying bureaucraty that tries to steal it with legal mumbo jumbo and armed thugs. Weak and lazy federal judges are the worst part: many judges believe for some reason that the law says things it does not: Assumption is a dangerous thing.

Forget the IRS. Unless you can get more back than you put in, ignore them. They will go away sooner or later, anmd you will keep your hard earned money. Just do not play their game.

Originally posted by Extralien
I know what he means.

If the USA obtained their tax the same way the UK does, then getting punished for failing to submit a tax form/payment would be almost zero in comparison.

In the UK, your tax is paid direct from your wages (unless you're self employed, then you get an accountant to help you sort your taxes out).
After a while, if you feel you've paid too much tax, according to your tax code and/or earnings, then you can file for a tax return where you will be repaid any overpaid taxes, or asked to pay more if you've not paid enough due to a change in your circumstances like a pay rise that hadn't quite got through the system yet.

Leaving the responsibility to organize and pay the taxes down to the individual on a country wide scale is not very cost effective in my opinion.

Not only do you have to use tax payers money to enforce payments, you're also using tax payers money to put non payers in prison and keep them there..

Actually, in the US you have to pay taxes out of your wages, just like in the UK. The difference is, you can get away without this, as long as you never owe the IRS at the end of the year. If you make a habit of not paying taxes through the year, and then owe let's say 10k at the end of the year they will mandate that you pay quarterly estimated taxes.

This is why it comes out of your w2'd earnings, because the company itself has to pay quarterly estimated taxes on what you earn for their side of the SS taxes.

Originally posted by IAttackPeople
if the IRS billed you, how would you be able to itemize all those awesome deductions that lower your taxable income and decrease your tax burden?

well, by taking their bill, and applying your own deductions, of course! I understand the privacy issue, however if they want to audit you and drill you for all your income, it's not like they can't do that on their own, without you... right? So why not just do that ahead of time? I mean essentially it's the same thing - except the latter method actually gives you a number they are expecting to work from, instead of throwing darts at a board.

I still fail to see the difference - other than my suggestion (or rather, complaint) is that people are being forced to either pay their taxes out of ignorance (e.g. overpaying "just to be safe"), or hire someone else to do it.

I'm not talking about garage sales either, im talking about income directly linked to your EID or SSN - income that can be tracked via software and all kinds of other things.

They MUST let the people figure out and send in the tax, if you read the TAX CODE, it clearly states it is voluntary, so it is up to the individual on how, when, they send the tax. They can not send a bill if it is voluntary,...


The Tax code is defined as a "voluntary mandate" what that means is up to the individual,....

Originally posted by eyewitness86
The IRS does nOT have a RIGHT to take a certain percentage of your life, no matter what form it takes. It is all a scam. It is voluntary, and the IRS knows it. Tnere is NO law that requires a citizen to fill out a form to have withholding taken from his pay; it is a voluntary act, and says so on the IRS forms. The employer is under NO legal obligation to corece these forms, and people who fill them out can withdraw from them voluntarily as well.

Snip...

Forget the IRS. Unless you can get more back than you put in, ignore them. They will go away sooner or later, anmd you will keep your hard earned money. Just do not play their game.

So is this why Redd Foxx had everything repossesed? Yeah, I think I'll be paying my taxes.

Originally posted by KanehBosm
They MUST let the people figure out and send in the tax, if you read the TAX CODE, it clearly states it is voluntary, so it is up to the individual on how, when, they send the tax. They can not send a bill if it is voluntary,...


The Tax code is defined as a "voluntary mandate" what that means is up to the individual,....

How about a link or a scanned image?

Seems lots of people say "YOU DONT HAVE TO PAY" when in fact they never show you these docs, they only say "If you look at it you will see.."

Well, how about putting it here so we can evaluate it ourselves?

Originally posted by KanehBosm
They MUST let the people figure out and send in the tax, if you read the TAX CODE, it clearly states it is voluntary, so it is up to the individual on how, when, they send the tax. They can not send a bill if it is voluntary,...


The Tax code is defined as a "voluntary mandate" what that means is up to the individual,....

heh, ya well - sort of like in the military... it's not so much volunteering as voluntelling.

reply to post by scientist


The IRS doesn't have the manpower, to figure out taxes/refunds for every taxpayer. Would you trust them to find all the refunds you're owed back, even if they could? They just look for discrepancies in paperwork, and then audit things that look fishy. If we went to a flat tax, then their job would be easier(as would ours).

Argh. I got beat to the punch.

If the IRS sent a bill out every January 1st the IRS would cease to exist a week later. Since the tax is in most cases withheld most folks pay it no heed. Could you imagine getting a bill from the IRS for 5 or 6 grand at the end of the year?!

If more people understood that the IRS does not collect income tax for the use of Government more people would be pissed and not want to pay. Think about it, a whole nation of people paying 30% of their income to pay back the intrest to a Private Bank that prints money out of thin air and indebts the nation with every stamp of the press. Madness.

Originally posted by BlueRaja
reply to post by scientist

 

The IRS doesn't have the manpower, to figure out taxes/refunds for every taxpayer.

ok, I can agree with you on this 110%... however, that's not a good excuse. It has nothing to do with manpower, and has more to do with inefficient methods (I am imagining warehouses FULL of papers and forms collecting dust). Just because the IRS isn't in the 21st century with the rest of us, should not mean that we all suffer because of it. Again, this brings up the question: what service are they providing the people that send them money? If it takes the IRS more money and effort to do something than it should... well, that's their own problem due to poor management practices and a million other things.

For example, what if you went to court one day, but they didn't assign you a public defender, because they didn't have the manpower... the case would be thrown out (I assume, and hope). So same thing here - if they can't assign a public accountant to deal with your taxes for you, you should be exempt. I really hope I'm not coming across naive or ignorant with all of this. Admittedly, I am so confused by the whole process, it just makes my head spin. I've always had other people do my taxes for me, but I still like to understand what's going on with my money.

The thing that sparked this thread, was that even the professionals I know (tax lawyers, CPAs, etc.) all seem to agree that the system is running on nothing but faith mixed with fear.

Would you trust them to find all the refunds you're owed back, even if they could? They just look for discrepancies in paperwork, and then audit things that look fishy. If we went to a flat tax, then their job would be easier(as would ours).

Amen, I'm not arguing against a flat tax. In fact, I'm not really trying to come up with solutions at all... just trying to figure out why the system works like it does (or rather, doesn't work). I think all taxes should be direct, and flat. No more indirect taxes, or these weird formulas where you take 20% of section 5f and add that to 6h / 4w times the square root of block SB-1 minus block VR-7. (you get the idea).

Like, what if you went to the grocery store - but instead of checking out all the food, you just told the cashier how much you owed, and that after they check all the inventory at the end of the month (or whatever) - if there was a discrepancy, to contact me later to discuss. I mean, that sounds like the exact opposite of logical and efficient, does it not?

[edit on 7-2-2008 by scientist]

reply to post by Quazga


Your asking to prove a negative. "Show me the law that says you don't have to pay" is essentially what you are asking. We are asking "Show us the law that requires us to pay!" Which one do you think is easier to do?

reply to post by scientist


The IRS can not possibly know all of your income sources or all of your deductible expenses. How would you propose that the IRS be able to accurately know your actual income? Remember, technically, the money you get from gambling, garage sales, etc is supposed to be reported as income, even though they rarely are.

I fail to understand how having the IRS calculate a "bill" (incorrectly) for every American, take the expense of distributing said bills, and then expecting us apply adjustments and send it back is more efficient than you and I simply filling-out a form and sending it in.

I'd rather take the 2 hours out of my year to file a return than have an IRS so huge and intrusive to know about every dollar that goes in my pocket.

reply to post by IAttackPeople


if everyone reported everything correctly, the IRS would have all the income information and if they did away with expenses, then they wouldn't need to worry about that end. then they could simply send a bill.

all fine and dandy except they are then relying on the honesty of the american people.

good luck with that.

Originally posted by IAttackPeople
reply to post by scientist

 

The IRS can not possibly know all of your income sources or all of your deductible expenses. How would you propose that the IRS be able to accurately know your actual income? Remember, technically, the money you get from gambling, garage sales, etc is supposed to be reported as income, even though they rarely are.

let me quote myself from about 6 posts up...

I'm not talking about garage sales either, im talking about income directly linked to your EID or SSN - income that can be tracked via software and all kinds of other things.

So like I said, most people make a majority of their income via a regular job, which is usually associated with a social security number, or a federal tax id, or an employer tax id. Either way, the money is linked to that number, so it can be tracked. This is the type of tax that should be kept track of on their own system.

I fail to understand how having the IRS calculate a "bill" (incorrectly) for every American, take the expense of distributing said bills, and then expecting us apply adjustments and send it back is more efficient than you and I simply filling-out a form and sending it in.

well, take into consideration the fact that IRS deals with this stuff by profession, while John / Jane Doe do not. Also take into consideration that the alternative is an "honor system," where you don't even have to pay if you don't want to... and you may justbe lucky enough to never be audited in your entire life. I know plenty of relatives where this is the case. I'm just too paranoid to try it myself.

I'd rather take the 2 hours out of my year to file a return than have an IRS so huge and intrusive to know about every dollar that goes in my pocke

me too, unfortunately, 2 hours is nowhere near the amount of time it takes for me to prepare taxes, but again I am not trying to figure out a better solution, but rather pick apart the reasons why IRS doesn't do this already. Yes yes - manpower, efficiency. Well, those are the same exact reasons I think the current system is broken - they are using too much manpower, and not enough efficiency. This is the digital age, where numbers can be linked dynamically. Seems they still prefer people to pencil it all in and snail mail it to them to double check.

Originally posted by Crakeur
all fine and dandy except they are then relying on the honesty of the american people.

good luck with that.

exactly, so the alternative is to trust us, and then quiz us on our answers. Of course, it should never be about the government (or in this case, a private organization) trusting the public, but the other way around!

Who pockets all the interest on all of that income sent to the IRS every pay period?
Any Idea what that interest would amount to in a years time?

Personally I always make sure my exemptions are as high a possible so my employer sends almost nothing in. I will keep that money in MY bank account over the course of the year and send it in only when they demand it.

If you make 100k a year and are sending 30k to the IRS. The interest on that is not chump change. Regardless of how much you actually owe.

reply to post by tommyknockers


I think they're charging 8% interest these days. the penalties range in price, depending on the infraction. interest is charged on taxes and penalties and then the interest will also compound on itself.

it gets ugly fast.

as to where that money goes, gov't coffers, to be wasted on pointless wars against terror and other such things

Originally posted by Crakeur
as to where that money goes, gov't coffers, to be wasted on pointless wars against terror and other such things

would it be safe to assume that over the years, our government has grown to count on this income as part of a budget? If so, that would only add fuel to the fire, in the context of the IRS making this process opaque on purpose.