China heightens Christian persecution

reply to post by TheWalkingFox

---

It doesn't look like you're one for making new threads after taking a quick look at your profile but have you thought about starting a new thread on this? I'm being utterly sincere and non sarcastic. Everything you said would make an incredible topic of discussion.



Then make a thread about Eastern religion persecution (again, a genuine suggestion). It would be a fascinating topic. But it's not fair to criticize the original poster or those responding to this thread for not mentioning something you think is important. Or referring to us as "hand wringing Christians." You have every right to make your own thread and discuss the topic. So does this thread author.

[edit on 2/6/2008 by AshleyD]

Because others have done it already, and, as if to prove the point, those threads sink like a rock. I was hoping I could get an explanation for this phenomena here, while it's nice and fresh.

reply to post by AshleyD

---

thanks - that clarifies a few things for me.

you may want to look at this guy for a bit of insight on Chinese adaptations of Christianity. It`s an odd story, but a bit of history well worth reading. Check the Taiping Rebellion links in the introduction, as well - he was behind it.

These experiences shaped modern China, just as much as the Boxer rebellion or the Opium Wars - and if you know the story, you get a bit of an idea why the Chinese tend to be a bit harsh about things like foreign missionaries, and people gathering by the hundreds in private to practice what may or may not be proper Christianity as you would define it. Two sides to every story, and all that.

reply to post by TheWalkingFox

---

I am with Fox on this one. I try to start these threads, and AshleyD and Clearskies can attest, and Fox for that matter, certain individuals always seem to like to come in and kill them and drive the intelligent point of view away. So as Fox asks, can we please get some intelligent comments while it is fresh? I am sure, sooner rather than later, these individuals will pop up their one line quote responses to my posts and downhill it goes.........and these individuals always seem to be arguing for the religious case....why is that? AshleyD and Clearskies are the first two to have given some excellent and intelligent responses from the religious POV and I appreciate it. And Fox, I always appreciate your comments! thumbs up to all three of you guys.

reply to post by palehorse23

---

I agree with you and Fox as well. No reason to not talk about all the things that are going on in the East concerning religious intolerance of various faiths. No reason to single one out and ignore the others. But I did get irritated when the focus became the accusation that Christians are purposely ignoring the persecution of other religions in the East. Bring up the discussion here- it is a subject that should be discussed. No problem in adding other religions into the mix of this thread. But the immediate insults and accusations were not necessary. We can add other religions into the discussion without the accusation of exclusivity is what I'm saying.

In journalism, there are six elements of news.

1. Timeliness
2. Proximity
3. Prominence
4. Consequence
5. Human Interest
6. Conflict

Bearing those in mind, let's have a look at some board statistics.

*Taken from the ATS Media Kit page.

The chart above shows the top 20 countries from where the the people who visit ATS come from. Question -- what is the predominant religion in the majority of those countries?

When you have the answer to that, link it to the elements of news that I have mentioned earlier. Hint -- elements 2,3 and 4 and perhaps even 6 are the relevant components in this thought experiment. Now what do you get?

Do you find it neccessary to cuss?
The two threads on China I started, were equally about non-Christian persecution.
Political dissenters, and activists!

The only stories, I mainly hear about Christian persecution, is from Christian publications.
They are Christian. Thereby lies their main focus. Not Taoism or hinduism.

I was and am very concerned about Darfur.
I have donated MUCH toward the persecuted there, Christian, Muslim and whatever else. Because, the aid is not withheld from people who are not Christian! Although they Will hear the Gospel at help centers.

reply to post by vox2442

---

To say that the Chinese are O.K. to practice oppression of freedom because of
This guy

seems to me to be painting with a broad brush.
He was a 'nut'. Jesus' brother? Kingdom on Earth?
Notice the Baptist minister would not baptize him? There's a REASON.

The Boxer rebellion, The foreigners and Christians were violating feng shui?
Well, kill em' all? It's their fault, and You know those missionaries were there risking their lives to transport opium!

Honestly, national oppression by America or Rome(or even Japan)is not tolerable, but, to say the Christians, men, women and children deserved to be slaughtered or forced to live under Communism is stupid.

Sorry, my argument is not more substantial, but, I'm no History major.


[edit on 7-2-2008 by Clearskies]

Hong Xiuquan is a poor justification of PRC persecution of Christians anyway, as the PRC's founder, Mao Zedong, saw his peasant rebellion as a forerunner of their own.

The PRC turned his birthplace into a museum - hardly a ringing condemnation...

I think you might have taken my comment the wrong way.

I`m not saying that persecution of anyone in the PRC is justified.

What I was hoping to illustrate is that China has a history of odd religious practices getting accepted by large groups of people, and leading to bloodshed. There`s a lot of cult activity - blends of a mainstream religion and someone`s desire for political power - in China over the last few hundred years. A close examination of Falun Dafa will show this to be one of them.

The aforementioned nutter wrote quite a bit. IIRC he actually wrote a third testament, and most Chinese bibles of the day contained it. I can`t say for certain that his third testament has been completely eradicated from Chinese Bible Canon - Can you?

On an "official" level, I`m sure that it has. I`m sure that the bibles considered to be official translations have no reference to Christ`s Chinese brother. On the unofficial level - ie the "house churches", people meeting in secret to practice something outside orthodoxy, ...well, who can tell?

I guess the question to me is this:

Is having groups of 1,000 or more, gathering in secret, in buildings not approved for those kind of numbers, practicing a localized form of a religion that lies outside of the orthodox (how far outside yet to be determined), in many cases with financial support from outside the country, the kind of thing that would be supported by any government, anywhere in the world?

I`m going to go out on a limb here and say "no".

If I had to condense my point further, I`d do it thus: With all things Chinese portrayed in the Western Media, there is a lot more going on than meets the eye.

It is possible, for example, that in a nation where you can buy a bible fairly easily in a bookstore (I`ve seen `em myself, in Guilin), a story about a man arrested for selling bibles might have a bit more to it than the Chinese randomly oppressing Christianity.

Why do we care what happens in China? As far as I'm concerned, religion is the foundational element that is causing the problems in this world, so go on and persecute. Although I feel for the people, it's there choice to proclaim a fairytale.


Seriously, Extremist Islam is behind terrorism. Extremist Christianity is behind so much hatred here in the US, and if it were not for completely arbitrary morals imposed by the religious right here in the US, we would actually be able to win the war on drugs (i.e. legalize pot and take the profits to directly combat meth, coca from columbia and opium based stuff from afghanistan.

So I say, Go China! We should follow their lead.

reply to post by Quazga

---

What's up Quazga. Kind of harsh. But, you have that right. Just be prepared for the religious folk to say you are contradicting yourself when you claim the Christians are behind hatred and you say to follow China's lead. They may say people like yourself are behind hatred. Just a warning for ya.

Oh yeah, we should be concerned about China for additional reasons such as military buildup, economic power, etc. They are on the rise and have their crosshairs on us.

[edit on 2/7/2008 by palehorse23]

I'm just following a bit of advice from a teacher I know of... "Pull the log out of your own eye before trying to pull the splinter out of your neighbors"

China is becoming a large power, because the US is too busy worrying about everything else except for what is real, so we buy buy buy to solve our worries, and that runs up our deficit with China, and fuels their growth.

And until the Christians in this country stop hating on gays, and others, then they really don't have any place hating on a country which is hating on them.

reply to post by Quazga

---

Isn't that the truth. I guess we have to come together as a nation of one if we are going to ever have change. The internal hatred within the Us amongst different groups is killing us.

I completely agree. We really have to get beyond this Liberal vs Conservative BS. I once heard a story from a baptist preacher who talked about his neighbors across the street. They came over, beer can in hand to say hey.

He always had an issue with these people, but always was there, because he thought they needed help. He didn't trust them and prayed for them everyday. Until one day, his wife died. The people across the street brought food everyday for a month, mowed his grass, took the kids to school, etc. He said as he reflected on the first time he met them with beer cans in hand that he had "paid way too much attention to what they held in their hands and not what they held in their hearts"

The same is true of of us today. Who cares if someone is gay, smokes pot, drinks beer, pierces their tongue, etc. All I want to know is if they support freedom. And today these are all marks of people who support it more than anyone.

Not to continue the religious rhetoric, but that was the point behind the statement "Love your neighbor as yourself". There was no condition on that. It wasn't "Change your neighbor into yourself", it was about spreading the currency of good will throughout society. This is a currency we can use, which will have no economic downturn, if we invest in it.

the so called "persecution" is not an issue of believe but an
issue of sovereignty in China.
some Christians loyal to Christian association of China, that is legal
some Christians loyal to Vatican.that is illegal.
maybe after Vatican abandons ROC and acknowledges PRC, thing will be defferent.

[edit on 8-2-2008 by gs001]

reply to post by Quazga

---

Look, if someone had told me the false gospel of "you're just fine the way you are."
Which some did. I would have died long ago of a stroke or brain hemorrage
or overdose from the drugs I partook of Every Day. I was 'walking' dead at 23.
But, I heard a real, old-fashioned preacher.

I was agoraphobic and bi-polar AND depressed and had psychotic features.!
All my counceling DID NOT help or even put a dent in it. Not, to mention the medications, I was on 7 different ones until I began to self medicate and quit.
Lithium, stelazine, tegratol, wellbutrin
xanax for panic attacks, I can't remember them all(It was 16 years ago)I also was suicidal and thought Oh, well, if I die I'll be in heaven. WRONG.
Instead, some preachers (My Uncles)prayed for me and shortly thereafter, I heard the gospel and was saved from my sins(and others' sins) and saved from hell!
I knew Jesus was there with me in my bedroom, with noone else, no T.V.
or anything. He gave me the biggest hug I have ever had and cleaned me up from my baggage and heavy weights on my shoulders.
THANK GOD, it wasn't illegal to have the unadulterated truth shown on T.V.
(Because I didn't go to church!)
Jesus' life-changing abilities are too precious to keep to yourself, when you know others need it. Even in China!



[edit on 8-2-2008 by Clearskies]

reply to post by gs001

---

The Vatican is a sovereign country, you're right.
It can be a threat to it's host countries.
Other countries have tried to meddle in China, too.
I pray things get better there.

No true translation would include Hong's third testament.
When I became a new convert, The Lord steered me exclusively to the K.J.V.





Not 'supported' with funds and property, but, CERTAINLY not smashed up and the members taken to prisons!
The reason these churches don't register(not referring to the fulan gong)
is , because they would then be highly regulated with government officials put in place to lead the church.




The problem with China's supply of Bible's is that the one publisher that produces them routinely only prints half the amount needed for the Christian population!

I would just like to add.

Apart from negative historical experience China had with Christianality like the "Taiping Uprising". More recently, China had to deal with Christian missionaries in the Western Region of Xinjiang. These Missionaries were in part, supporting the Muslim East Turkistan Group, which is listed as a terrorist org. About 4 years ago, China deported and ban these Missionaries, hold and behold, Bombings there suddenly stopped, and the region was as peaceful as it gets. Within Weeks, Russia did the same and the "color Revolution" stopped too. That's right, C!A.. and don't try to say that C!A had never used Misssionaries as their cover... just look at Latin America thru the 60's and 70's. then there is Darfur "genocide" propaganda, they are still active there with Jewish groups, they with their proxies Chad and Uganda supported the Rebels and started the whole god damn thing and have the nerve to say that it's China and Sudans fault.

One have to consider the Chinese perpective. Why don't these "House Church" simply register with the Local Authorities, if they are authentic. I'm sure the Chinese Govt do not want another "FuLong Gong" or a taipaing incident.. or even another "TainAnMen square " incident where it stinks with foreign (US and Brits) support and planning.