Forbidden Egyptology

Howdy Diablomonic

Some comments on your long (but good) post

1. As an eleven year old I got interested in what is now called fringe materials and later AAT materials. Heyerdahl's Aku Aku lead me into Archaeology. I've always had an interest in fringe (which is why I'm here)

2. Large scale organization running the world. No, not possible, large organizations require administrative support and always have difficulty communicating, have inner political fights and dissents. This is pretty much true for all human organizations. No such "problems" are evident. Nor is there any motive or purpose to these "impossibly vast and omnipotent" organizations those who believe in them cannot agree as to there purpose.

3. No particular point to suppressing the knowledge of ancient civilizations, if such an organization existed - why did we learn about the Ubaidians, Minoans and Sumerians? Such an organization would have needed to have been in operation for centuries and before modern communications. They would have no control over looters (which in some countries bring out over 85% of the archaeological finds).

4. If you are interested in 911 I would recommend you visit JREF. They have the best materials and people to talk to about that.

5. Control of the media - again we have seen societies that have tried to to do this (and are doing it now) and its obvious, labor intensive and doesn't really work very well.

Howdy Skyfloating & Bryd

SF

So why didn't humans detect these advanced humans or aliens not being gods? If humans were smart, as they did in historic times, why didn't they do this in ancient times? Why did these smart humans associate all advances to gods, if there were smart how come they didn't think of anything. Your positions seems to be; I think humans are not dumb but advance humans and aliens had to teach them everthing?


Byrd. Right you are on the Aztecs, i was thinking of the Polynesians and Amazonian tribes

I just thought of something else too regarding "vimanas" etc:
I cant remember who was arguing this, but they were saying that for an ancient civilization to have flying machines, they needed an industrialized society, and we would see traces of that: Not true, all you need is the right situation, people and some luck:

combine an "Abbas Ibn Firnas" or Archytas (*), and a perhaps a few other geniuses, with chinese rocketry and some sort of elitist totalitarian society structure with a investigative "science like" attitude in charge of a rich nation (ahem... Atlantis...) and it would be quite possible to have those in charge get their best and brightest to develop rocket powered airplanes WITHOUT letting the rest of the lower classes have any of the tech nor needing an industrialized society. Throw in a spark of knowledge about electricity, and a Tesla or two, plus some luck, and you would be well on your way to getting powered flight (see tesla turbine, based on water wheel design and powerable by steam) and remote controlled missiles (ok teslas electrical knowledge was based on earlier work as well as his genius, but still, he did make a working remote controlled "torpedo" 110 years ago!!!. (**)

combine that with a stable class stratified society over a few centuries and who knows what weird combinations of current, past and future tech you would have. It is a fallacy to assume that technology can only develop in one particular order. The main reason our current tech seems to be developed and deployed so linearly and incrementally is economics: it makes more sense to sell 10 cars with slight improvements over ten years than one car with all ten years improvements. get rid of the economic driving force and make it a prestige thing and you get all the possible developments as quick as possible. Especially given a driving force and the right situation, certain tech we consider advanced may have been invented long before certain tech we consider old. This is all without including the possibility of outside influence, which would obviously make it even easier to have elites with advanced knowledge and commoners with (perhaps refined but still) bronze age or worse tech.




(*)of course I'm assuming here that these guys, if the stories are true, invented aeroplanes virtually from scratch (inspired by birds probably). If I'm right in my views on atlantis, it is quite possible they were simply discoverers of some ancient book of knowledge and put it to use.


(**)He also claimed to have invented a death ray! (I have seen no hard evidence for this, therefore I would consider it unlikely to the extreme EXCEPT for the fact that tesla is not the sort of person who seemed to make claims lightly, and if anyone could do it, he could)

If it were an Atlantis-style continent, there is no reason these gods would give any technology or education to their slaves. It would go against the concept of what it is all about.

reply to post by diablomonic


Amazing posts there diablomonic. In fact...all of you...Byrd, Hanslune, C.J.Benjamin...great reading!!!!


Diablomonic: Whats truly interesting is that you´ll get a different variation of truth from every person you meet. For example while we keep talking about "mainstreamers vs. fringe-pseudoscientists", the lines are not that clear cut. We could detail all the lines in between on a scale from 1-100.

Anyway...great reading.

Originally posted by Hanslune

So why didn't humans detect these advanced humans or aliens not being gods? If humans were smart, as they did in historic times, why didn't they do this in ancient times? Why did these smart humans associate all advances to gods, if there were smart how come they didn't think of anything. Your positions seems to be; I think humans are not dumb but advance humans and aliens had to teach them everthing?

For clarification:

When it comes to the subjects like math or algebra Im dumb. That doesnt mean I am generally dumb or incapable of learning it.

Being unfamiliar with something doesnt mean being dumb or "lower". This is why some of the Gods went forward to teach a few skills.

Unfamiliarity-with-something does not equal stupidity

reply to post by C.C.Benjamin


Thanks for that long post. Thats a pretty good summary of why ancient-astronaut-theory is not THAT MUCH of a "stretch".

Oh and something else to think about:

apparently (from my brief time looking it up on the web hehe) agriculture and civilisation arose independantly in various places (Indus valley, nile delta, America etc) all within a period of a few thousand years, perhaps within shorter than that.

now since humans are supposed to have been (and I don't have any real reason to doubt this) pretty much identical in potential to todays humans for many tens of thousands of years, what are the chances that all these civilizations were truly independent? if the probability of one spark of inspiration giving agriculture/civilization is say one in 30,000 years, what is the probability that all those sparks occur independantly within such a short period of time? (of course all this proves to me is that someone with the original knowledge made it to all these sites round the world, and given how adventurous some humans are, thats not so surpising to me, though I dont understand why so many people doubt it... I mean, it doesnt matter if say, an ocean crossing in a small vessel is hard, given enough vessels blown off course in storms, one of them is likely to make it, purely by dumb luck.)

options:
-(un)lucky sailors get blown from first civ to others, carry knowledge with them
-early civ had better mobility than thought
-civilisation goes back further than is thought and got "downsized" by dissaster, making it appear to have "sprung up from nothing" when in fact it just recovered somewhat.

cheers guys

reply to post by PhotonEffect


Hi PhotonEffect,

Except for the following, time periods of which can be generally determined from the available information:

Greek...............Bronze Age....................c.1400 BC
Arcadian............from Dardanus..............c.1300 BC
Roman..............Deucalion......................c.1400 BC
Turkey..............Iskender-Iulcarni...........c.330 BC
Sumerian..........Ziusudra........................c.2750 - 2900 BC
Babylonian........Atrahasis.......................c.2750 - 2900 BC
Assyrian............Utnapishtim...................c.2750 - 2900 BC
Chaldean..........Xisuthrus = Ziusudra.......c.2750 - 2900 BC
Hebrew.............Noah - per Bible and
........................Hebrew Calendar...........c.2104 BC
Islam................Noah - as above............c.2104 BC


Which of these other flood stories, minus obvious similitarities that can be attributed to any flood, would you say are stories of the SAME flood and can you tell when they happened?

www.talkorigins.org...

cormac

I think we are often in danger of thinking that the wisdom to be revealed is better than what has already been revevealed. The Emerald tablets are a case in point and have always fascinated me:

The history of the tablets translated in the following pages is strange and beyond the belief of modern scientists. Their antiquity is stupendous, dating back some 36,000 years B.C. The writer is Thoth, an Atlantean Priest-King, who founded a colony in ancient Egypt after the sinking of the mother country.

He was the builder of the Great Pyramid of Giza, erroneously attributed to Cheops. In it he incorporated his knowledge of the ancient wisdom and also securely secreted records and instruments of ancient Atlantis.

For some 16,000 years, he ruled the ancient race of Egypt, from approximately 52,000 B.C. to 36,000 B.C. At that time, the ancient barbarous race among which he and his followers had settled had been raised to a high degree of civilization.

Thoth was an immortal, that is, he had conquered death, passing only when he willed and even then not through death. His vast wisdom made him ruler over the various Atlantean colonies, including the ones in South and Central America.

www.crystalinks.com...


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[edit on 3-4-2008 by Jbird]

Hermes Trismegistus (thrice great Hermes)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

www.themystica.com...
The alleged teacher the magical system known as Hermetism of which high magic and alchemy are thought to be twin branches. The name Trismegistus means thrice greatest Hermes, and is the title given by the Greeks to the Egyptian god Thoth or Tehuti, a lord of wisdom and learning.

At one time the Greeks thought two gods inseparable. Thoth governed over mystical wisdom, magic, writing and other disciplines and was associated with healing, while Hermes was the personification of universal wisdom and the patron of magic.

The myths go further. Both gods are associated with sacred writings. As scribe for the gods, Thoth was credited with all the sacred books. In various Egyptian writings he is called "twice very great" and "five times very great." Hermes is credited with writing 20,000 books by Iamblichus (ca. 250-300 BC), a Neo-platonic Syrian philosopher, and over 36,000 books by Manetho (ca. 300 BC), an Egyptian priest who wrote the history of Egypt in Greek, perhaps for Ptolemy I.

The combined myths of these gods report that both Thoth and Hermes revealed to humankind the healing arts, magic, writing, astrology, science, and philosophy. Thoth wrote the record of the weighing of the souls in the Judgment Hall of Osiris. Hermes led the souls of the dead to Hades.

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[edit on 3-4-2008 by Jbird]

Howdy Diablomonic

To take one quote from you post

Throw in a spark of knowledge about electricity

Technology is always a matter of small steps, with the occasional inspiration leap.

To get to electricity you needed to have for example copper wire, to get copper wire you needed the ability to make copper wire, to get that you needed to get fairly pure copper, to get that you need a way to smelt copper, to get the copper to smelt you need to have a copper mine. So you'd leave traces, copper slag, a large (in the ground usually) smelting structure, ash, a copper mine, skeletons showing heavy labor from mining - which shows a different wear pattern on bones that using a sword, a bow or a plow. etc

We find ancient mans' flint and obsidian mines and later copper, tin and other mines. We find were he manufactured the tools and we find the tools themselves and sometimes the effect of those tools on skeletons.

With the "high technology" we find none of this.

Now the response is to this "well they used something else" at some point you have to ask yourself, why can't we find anything?

We then arrive back at point 'A', until the evidence is found the existence of "vimanas" remains only possible and in my opinion not probable.

yabut...."those lands sank beneath the sea"

Then find the land that sank - again that will leave traces - but in India's case the land is still there.

Originally posted by Hanslune
Howdy Diablomonic
Some comments on your long (but good) post

Thanks

1. As an eleven year old I got interested in what is now called fringe materials and later AAT materials. Heyerdahl's Aku Aku lead me into Archaeology. I've always had an interest in fringe (which is why I'm here)

Thats pretty much what I figured.

2. Large scale organization running the world. No, not possible, large organizations require administrative support and always have difficulty communicating, have inner political fights and dissents. This is pretty much true for all human organizations. No such "problems" are evident. Nor is there any motive or purpose to these "impossibly vast and omnipotent" organizations those who believe in them cannot agree as to there purpose.

That explains a lot then (to me). I completely disagree however, though I'm not sure if I should get into it here (off topic), and I understand and once held your views. Perhaps you'd like me to point out some interesting evidence for some sort of Illuminati style group? I don't want to sidetrack this thread too much except to point it out because it changes arguments regarding the existence of ancient advanced civilizations.
By the way, an example of internal dissent is JFK: from a supposed illuminati family bloodline, definitely thought to be part of "it" when put in power, then rebelled once in power and tried to bring down the federal reserve (their private piggy bank) and let the cat out of the bag (see here: www.fdrs.org...). You know the rest of the story.

3. No particular point to suppressing the knowledge of ancient civilizations, if such an organization existed - why did we learn about the Ubaidians, Minoans and Sumerians?

first off, no organisation is perfect. Its a strange argument I've seen in a few places something along the lines of: no massive conspiracy could exist, someone would know about it (forgetting that I'm pointing it out hence know about it) and then, often, a follow up: "if they exist, how do you know about xxx, wouldnt they have covered that up?"!!! jumping from "they dont exist because they couldnt be thorough enough to hide completely" to "they dont exist because they arent hidden completely"....sort of like the hitchhikers guide argument against god involving the babble fish

The mere fact that I think they exist means that, if they do, they either accidentally or deliberately let their existance be known to some extent. Therefore they are not perfect, and us having some (non damaging) knowledge about those cultures is not a surprise. Possible examples of knowledge that could be harmful to them:

- anything showing ancient high tech, on the assumption that they are the remnant of such a civilisation, or have personally discovered and used knowledge from said civilisation, and dont want it known they have it.

- anything which makes people think too much, especially things that undermine "expert opinions", eg atlantis. If mainstream science and archeology could be so wrong about that, what else are they wrong about. MORE IMPORTANTLY, if they had been covering it up for so long, and it eventually got out, people would ask WHY and WHO could cover such a thing up? (yes I know this argument for a cover up is based on the apriori existence of said cover up lol)

RE centuries: I believe this group to have been around in its current form for at least 200 years, in basically its current form for 300 - 400 years, and very likely to have been around in some form or other for millenia (I consider it possible that "they" or precursors to them created Christianity in the first place as a societal control mechanism), although only in the last two hundred years have they really got organised on such a global scale.

Howdy Diablomonic

So as to not disrupt this Egyptology thread you might want to start another with the specific purpose to look at a conspiracy to suppress archeaological discoveries, etc. I had been thinking of doing one myself.

Just one side note, all natilons have a central bank, or an organization to perform such a function. Kennedy try to do in the FRS? I don't think so! - you cannot have a capitalistic system without one, and he was a major believer in capitalism.

But that would be another threadFRS

[edit on 3/4/08 by Hanslune]

reply to post by Hanslune


Regarding JREF: I got "sent" there by skeptics when I first started investigating 9/11 and found it to be an annoying board full of "pseudo skeptics" who had much wrong information or were arguing against things without bothering to actually look at what they were talking about, to see that their arguments were silly/irrelevant. Basically a lot of arrogant know it alls who didn't(*). I got hooked on this stuff during my honours thesis and spent the first 6 months of that full time researching 9/11 when I should have been doing uni work, and suffice it to say, JREF is not the wealth of useful info you think it is. Not to say theres not useful nuggets in there, and that they havent debunked some of the more wild disinfo claims about 9/11, however theres so much stuck up arrogant rubbish on there its painful for me to read. Thats what I like about this forum, even when people dont agree they (generally) remain polite and therefore have useful discussions about things.

Regarding media control: Do you know, that in all the time I've been interested in this stuff, not one real world person I've talked to (there have been many) has even been AWARE that there was another very large building to collapse on 9/11 (WTC7), let alone that it appeared exactly like a controlled implosion, was admitted as such by the owner (then retracted) and that two national/international news shows accidentally talked about it having collapsed BEFORE IT HAD ACTUALLY COLLAPSED! Now I consider that amazing info, and the fact that not one person I've talked to in real life has known any of it tells me that the media control they have works EXCEEDINGLY WELL. It's not necessary (nor possible) for no info to ever get out, I mean, WTC7 was shown collapsing at the time on some stations, it's only necessary to "forget" about it in mainstream media, and the general public forgets too. "They" are not worried about a small percentage of aware people, in fact, we may just be the angry mob they can blame martial law on and lock up when the # hits the fan. So long as joe sixpack remains unaware, their control is fine.

Anyway, to try to get this a little back on topic (if you want to discuss this more, I'd be more than happy to talk in another more relevant thread), I'll ask the hypothetical (for you) question:

How would your beliefs on AAT/Atlantis/vimanas/Lost civilisations/egyptology change if you WERE convinced there was a global conspiracy of some sort capable and possibly motivated to cover up ancient history, even if you were unsure of their aims etc (beyond the usual money/power)? Have you ever personally seen or heard of any discoveries you originally thought were real/were intrigued by, that either weren't followed up on or were sullied by taints of fraud etc, or turned out to apparently be false, but left you curious for some reason anyway, or had anything suspicious about them?

cheers

(*)of course many of the pro 9/11 boards were full of the other side of the coin: "true believers" who didnt like even small parts of their belief being attacked, even if faulty. Me? I struggle for truth, and I'm happy to change my beliefs when proven wrong, but I always try to keep my mind open to strange possibilities, and HAVE been convinced beyond doubt that 9/11 was NOT purely done by "al qaeda" terrorists, and DID have very high level inside help, that the towers WERE in some way or other brought down by something other than the planes and resulting damage/fire, and that it was, actually, done because "they hate our freedoms", hehe, its just the "they" I talk about is not the "they" bush talks about

reply to post by Hanslune


Sounds like a good idea, I'll start that thread after I've looked through the link on jfk/money
cheers.

Originally posted by Hanslune
Technology is always a matter of small steps, with the occasional inspiration leap.

Tesla is a good example of the amount of a leap a single semi-funded genius can make in a few decades.

To get to electricity you needed to have for example copper wire, to get copper wire you needed the ability to make copper wire,... So you'd leave traces, copper slag, a large (in the ground usually) smelting structure...

pretty much agreed (though it didn't have to be copper, most metals would do to begin with for basic experimentation, even gold, which can be found in pure form in nature.) However, I have heard of MANY (unsubstantiated...) cases of very ancient mines/smelters etc being found (of course these all either turn out to be frauds, less ancient, or are covered up, depending on your point of view) However: Atlantis, if it existed, is apparently under the ocean. all traces of this civilizations local developments are currently hidden (though hopefully we will get down there at some stage). The name atl-antis itself may mean water-copper (in Nahuatl and Quechua, if this is false, let me know), which to me implies something like island of copper, IE, they had the ore on the island so would have had the mines and so forth on the island.
given copper and zinc (both known about for quite a while) and some lemon juice, you can make a (crappy) battery. chuck in a few hundred years of tinkering and a genius or two... you get the point. Think more along the lines of "royal wizard(s)" (genius) and his assistants, over a long period of time, rather than the current worldwide research effort by every smart person and their dog This gives certain "advanced" techs without many other ones we associate with them (eg electricity without massive industrialization etc)

We find ancient mans' ...
With the "high technology" we find none of this.

we CONFIRM none of this, I've heard of lots of "finds" over the years. Your point is taken, although it doesn't convince me (conspiracy nut that I am )

Now the response is to this "well they used something else" at some point you have to ask yourself, why can't we find anything?

again point taken, same (dissatisfying...) answer. Again though, stop thinking in terms of our semi equal (lol) society, where everyone has advanced gadgets in their house, and think religious totalitarian slavery, with tech being "blasphemous" to use without gods permission, and certainly never taught/explained beyond "magic" to most people

We then arrive back at point 'A', until the evidence is found the existence of "vimanas" remains only possible and in my opinion not probable.

that sounds like a reasonably sensible opinion to hold, given your opinion on the possibility of conspiracy. I'm not exactly convinced either, though I think I give it more likely hood than you...

yabut...."those lands sank beneath the sea"

Then find the land that sank - again that will leave traces - but in India's case the land is still there.

good point. Perhaps you should consider for a moment, what would happen to a working/not working vimana through the ages. Only identifiable and even slightly understandable by the few, it would be protected/hidden away, most likely in either religious or government stash's (kings treasure/monastery secret rooms). Most would be lost or destroyed over the years, any left would be hugely prized and top secret nowadays (assuming they had any useful tech in them).
Perhaps your points most useful implication is putting a bound on how common these high tech objects could be on the mainlands/lands away from the ocean (that are not now covered by rising water).
(reaaaaallly rough) Thought experiment:
world population in ancient times: millions?
number of elites with high tech gizmos: few dozens/hundreds?
number of people WITHOUT gizmos: millions
number of discoveries needed to be made to have high likelihood of finding even a single gizmo: many thousands
how hard is it to cover up a single gizmo in a world of people that don't believe in it?

one other thing: assume these vimana's were like the stealth bombers of the day, except there was no arms race with the majority of the worlds pop, only other vimana owners, so while a stealth bombers tech will eventually become public knowledge through normal public technological prgress, in the vimanas case, it remains "top secret" with respect to the general population indefinately.

Given that situation, If a stealth bomber crashed/crash landed/broke down anywhere the US could get to nowadays, it would be immediately sealed off, cleaned up and carried away for scrap/destruction/repair, not left around for some non cleared personnel to find and reverse engineer. In the same way, a similarly downed vimana would not be left lying around for some "commoner" genius to reverse engineer "gods magic" from

consider what this implies for where they might and might not be discovered, if indeed they did exist.

reply to post by Hanslune


"With the "high technology" we find none of this."

-American Archeology, featured an article about "Copper Ore Mining and Smelting in the Northern Mid-west that pre-dated American Indians,,,
Article came out approximately 2 years ago.

As to a NWO conspiracy,,,and a large "Hidden" society,,here is a short list off the top of my head with powerful members, structured rank and file, tremendous wealth that international influence"
Buildenberger Society
Rothchild Foundation
Masonic Lodge
Vactican (Papal See)
Are are many others ..thats just in a a two minute rush...