Guns, what good are they....?

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
reply to post by KINGOFPAIN

 

Of course, "people" are the enemy. You've been trained by your government, big or small, to see each of your neighbors as a potential threat to your life. Or maybe not "neighbors" since that might upset your sensibilities, but rather some vaguely-defined "Stranger" usually with the implication that said "Stranger" has a different skin color than you do. Never mind that the majority of violent crimes are committed by people perfectly familiar to the victim and not this white-brown-yellow-black "stranger," you must ALWAYS be armed and vigilant against that stranger!

Why every day your government kills hundreds of those different-skinned strangers over there, saving you the cost of bullets. How generous. And of course, you're supposed to support that, since hey, it's what YOU would do, right?

Where from did this racist nonsense come? It must be public education...ie a television education. What is clear in this city is that people of skin colour are killing each other faster than are people of another skin colour. A concept or fact you do not see told or explained in the major medias. Totally overlooked. To make this public is to be racist. What nonsense.

NO one here brought up race/skin colour until your arrival.
Skin colour is not a default setting to play through unchallanged or undebated. Skin colour is no longer an intelligent debate point. Unfortunately todays intelligentsia ..skin colour..is the best they have.
No one on this debate point is talking about skin colour. IF you want to bring up skin colour be prepared to be rebutted.

I hate also to tell you this Walking Fox..but in most of the "over there" countries..those people have been killing each other long before we arrived. Also their governnents have been killing them too. I cannot imagine what you are thinking here.
It has become more and more clear in the continent of Africa that these people in tribal disputes have been killing each other for centurys before the white men came over. This continues today with or without guns. This became very clear after what happened in Rawanda. It continues in other African nations today. I will remind you that in the spirit of the sacredness of life...the UN has been totally ineffective or unwilling in these cases and continues to be so.

Please Save your racist nonsense for another forum. IT doesnt belong here. Your racism will not be allowed to play through unchallanged or unquestioned. THere are some of us here who can think further than skin colour and the default techniques used to stiffle dissenting opinion.

Orangetom

[edit on 29-1-2008 by orangetom1999]

If is wasn't for the big, bad, guns the Americans have, all of you in Europe would be speaking German now and goose-stepping to work.

Guns, if made illegal, would not disappear. Instead, those who wish to gain control would find or make more guns.

Cars kill more people in the US than any other technology. Let's make those illegal first.

I can hear your argument already. "All guns do is kill people. Cars provide transportation." Yes, and guns protect your ability to travel to those destinations. So without guns, there could be no safe travel.

Go to the "Weaponry" forum. Post an anti-gun topic.

I was raised in a small town in Utah where everyone had guns and enjoyed everything from target shooting to hunting for food for the table. When I was about 14 years old the town of 7,000 had it first murder since its founding about 120 years prior.

I have hunted my whole life. It is part of my income. For the price of 2 or 3 bullets I can fill my freezer. Recently we have learned, which was no surprise to me, that wild game is the most healthy of all meats. One moose and I have all that animal protein to supplement my food supply for the year. My costs are under $100 to take a moose and it gives me, when combined with the fish I've caught, all the meat I need for the year. Good healthy meat too.

Reason number two is self defense. I've never been in the military or worn a badge but I have been shot at twice and mugged once. In all three cases there was no way the Police could have gotten to me in time to help.

Reason three is both my Wife and I enjoy target shooting. Its like any other sport that requires skill and practice and I enjoy the challenge.

Reason four is that the bad guys all have guns and the only way to defend against a gun is with a gun. It levels the field.

Reason five is it is a survival tool. My Family and I will never go hungry. How about yours? The average Supermarket has about 3 days of food on hand. I've been in a remote town in Idaho when it got snowed in for two weeks and let me tell you the shelves were empty by the fifth day. My freezer was full so my neighbors and my family were just fine. We had plenty to eat. I had Elk, Venison and Trout in my freezer to share.

Guns...Wow!!!

to show you how intelligentsia and Public Education work on those who have little real experiences in this world...also not much of a historical viewpoint.
Remember ...much of our intelligentsia are responsible for public education and what it has become or not become.

As an individual I dont appreciate the Europeans coming to forums like this and lecturing us about our "uncivilized " behavior ..especially as pertains to our ownership of firearms. While they are entitled to voice thier opinions ..most certainly...What I know from history is that these enlightened peoples stood by for years and years while next door and watching daily ,in more detail than us, the slaughter of a people. I speak of course of the former Yugoslavia. And by this...I mean all of Europe.
Also here the UN was less than usless in solving this problem. All the might, posturing,, and civilization of Europe turned out to be so much flatulence.
It took the United States and our weapons knowhow to bring things to a halt. It did not take all the "Civilized Intelligentsia" of Europe.

So when I see someone from down under presuming to lecture us on such points I tend to put them in the same boat as Europeans. Enlightenment..please...spare me. History is full of such well intentioned enlightenment. IN more modern times you see sucn enlightened peoples perishing in internment camps. IN ancient times you see them drinking poision...ala Socrates.

Do not misunderstand me here...Peace is a wonderful concept and to be eagerly sought. I so wish it could be different than the dismal history of men...even men of "enlightment and intelligentsia." But make no mistake..it is not so, as idealists would mistakenly have us believe. All it takes is one clear look at history...not blind emotions. Feel goodism.

Orangetom

reply to post by andre18


You talk like America is the only country with a population of guns. I can tell you for a fact that overseas there are kids fighting and killing in wars. Do I need to say more?

This thinking that if you take away guns you will stop crimes commited by guns is the stupidist rational.

If their ever was a mandated/forced gun ban and recall, do you really think the criminals would turn theirs in because it was the law?? HELL NO, their criminals the dont obey the law!!

The only people who would follow the law, would be law abiding citizens. Now all you would have is unarmed law abiding citizens, and criminals with guns. What the hell is the point of that??

Their are so many other things that kill more people(like many posters have already pointed out) than guns. Their is no true safty in this world, people are going to die.

We have conceal and carry where I live, and this ties in to my point about the "ban" above, But if a company doesnt want you to carry in their store they must post a sign saying so. Well at first these signs were every where, but with time most have come down. Except for banks, at every bank i have seen their is a big sign on the front door "this bank banns guns on these premisis".

You know what even with their signs clearly stating NO GUNS, their still are armed bank robberies!!! Wierd huh?? Youd think with the sign and everything...

I have conceal and carry, and I carry almost everywhere I go, and trust me, me and my gun are not the ones to be worried about, Its the criminals!!

I think a better topic would have been "Criminals, what good are they...?"

Im all for rounding them up and geting rid of them, because unlike guns, criminals do kill all by themselves!!

reply to post by orangetom1999


Wow, well that was narrow minded.
So you dont like people "preaching" as you put it to others about what to do and your right to bear arms, yet you seem to know a heel of a lot about the way the european union works and how they should act when dealing with a VERY complicated situation such as yugoslavia.
So by your rational the E.U should have marched straight in shooting round at anything they suspected to be a threat, sound familiar....yeh irag aint working out to well either is it.
In no way am i saying you dont have the right to bear arms but to flame someone that has simply asked for advice/opinions on their stance on having firearms, and to think you know how to control, and the best options of all european nations in times of conflict. You have to admit thats a bit egotistical

Originally posted by andre18

Nope when you take away guns, only the criminals have them, because they don't care if it is illegal, and they get bolder, knowing their potential victims are un armed.

Look at Australia, please show me where there are reports of criminals holding up a 7/11 with guns.....and even if you do some how, it would only be something like 1-2 a year max......Look at the number of gun related deaths in both Australia and England.....they don't even touch 100......

Australia is literally one of safest countries in the world…..hmmmm, I wonder why….

Boy I wish I had the link .. Australia after the gun ban , the crime rate increased by almost 300% in 9 months .. It ( the link ) gave actual figures as before and after the gun ban on armed robberies and homocides.


[edit on 29-1-2008 by andre18]

Originally posted by andre18
reply to post by fritz

 

Yep.....people kill people......but if you take away the guns....it just becomes that little but harder.....You can’t have a war between countries without guns, without missiles, without weapons…..you take away the most lethal arms and the world’s a happier and safer place…

Men like to go to war. If not guns and missiles and other weapons, they'd find substitutes.

Look at what kills people; handguns are quite low on the list.

I'd much rather have them ban:

24 hr/day, 365 days/year Military exercises, flights, sorties, cruises, dumping aviation fuel into our atmosphere, and garbage into our oceans.

Military use of weaponized biological agents and chemicals, and stockpiling same.

Military use of defoliants, Agent Orange and other toxic chemicals, napalm and fuel oil explosives.

Underground and above ground nuclear testing...

I could go on and on just on Military misuses of technology that harms us directly and indirectly.

Other things more hazardous than handguns?

Cars, trucks, buses; almost 50,000 deaths per year in the US.

Handgun deaths from assaults? Only 12,000/year (USA, 1998 stats).

People like to get on the 'ban handguns' bandwagon because it's a convenient 'problem' and not because it's so pervasive.

Fires, falls, and other common accidents are more frequent.

Since 75% of the handgun deaths in the US are males 18-24, maybe we should lock them all up for 6 years.

Guns are just tools.

Don't get me wrong...if we could truly get rid of all the handguns, say by magic, then it might be a 'good thing'. But just banning them from possession by law doesn't change availability to criminals.





[edit on 29-1-2008 by Badge01]

Yes, guns kill people and that's precisely why I own one. I prefer to take responsibility for my own safety, rather than depending on the police to get to me in time.

In other words, if someone breaks into my home in the middle of the night, I'd rather have a gun in my hand than a phone.

reply to post by kattraxx


Though I agree with you in principle, that scenario has problems. Far better to have a rather loud protective dog and a good alarm system, eh?

Remember the statistics from various sources. At least 50% of people cannot bring themselves to shoot someone, even in war time.

In addition, imagine the trauma to yourself at the time - the noise, blood and viscera embedded in the wall; danger to your own family (and maybe neighbors) from missed shots. Lots of people that are forced to defend themselves in the home with guns end up with PTSD.

Again, I agree that having a handgun or shotgun (and being trained in them and the defensive use) in the home does lend a feeling of security, but it may be in large part a false sense, even a illusion.

Another thing to consider is that having a handgun in the home might increase the odds of a burglary. Somehow the badguys seem to find out who has them and they target those residents.

I want to answer some of the OP questions. Now if you legally own a gun in America, you abide by rules. Everyone knows them who owns guns, most people who own guns use them for sport, hunting or just for show. Rarely do
you ever see a NRA member go on a killing spree. Rarely, i imply.

Now you can say all you want about guns kill people, but they do not, people that are ignorant with guns kill people.

Take the time to familiarize yourself with gun practices. Go down to the local gun store, and talk with the owner there, read up.

The only answer why some people hate guns, is they are uneducated about them. They don't know how they work, they think they go off automatically, if you drop em, etc.

I own guns, I even have my CCW, (Concealed Weapons Permit). Does that mean I go around shooting people, absolutely not.

So you can say all you want about how guns are evil. The truth is you don't understand the truth about em. People fear what they do not know.

[edit on 29-1-2008 by Harvestfreak]

reply to post by andre18


Your view on this is all based on the status quo as of now. You live in a country that is developed and has a stable government. Crime, violence, injustice, and oppression aren't things you experience on a daily basis.

Now what if all that changed?

What if your government decided to ditch this whole 'democracy' idea and take away your freedoms? How would you put an end to it? By protesting in the streets? Not likely. The men that founded the United States created the second amendment for just that purpose - so the people of our nation can defend themselves if our government ever turns against us.

The point is, even though it may seem outlandish that anyone in a developed country might have to use a gun to fight in a revolution against their government, it still offers a very important form of protection for our freedom. Taking away a law abiding citizens gun is one step closer for a government to have a complete dictatorship over it's people.

That's what guns are good for.

Originally posted by Badge01
reply to post by kattraxx

 

Remember the statistics from various sources. At least 50% of people cannot bring themselves to shoot someone, even in war time.

I agree. If you don't believe you can shoot someone, don't own a gun.

In addition, imagine the trauma to yourself at the time - the noise, blood and viscera embedded in the wall; danger to your own family (and maybe neighbors) from missed shots. Lots of people that are forced to defend themselves in the home with guns end up with PTSD.

I believe I'd prefer a case of PSTD to being beaten, raped, or dead. No contest.

Again, I agree that having a handgun or shotgun (and being trained in them and the defensive use) in the home does lend a feeling of security, but it may be in large part a false sense, even a illusion.

To me, the illusion of safety is depending on a phone instead of a gun.

Another thing to consider is that having a handgun in the home might increase the odds of a burglary. Somehow the badguys seem to find out who has them and they target those residents.

Well........... they are welcome to try, lol.

Guns, what are guns used for? So many applications that's what. If you have a gun/firearm there are only a handful of reasons why you need it. Your options are: hunting, protection or to cause harm. Either way you need one as an option to carry out any of the three objectives. As for hunting, guns are pretty effective as compared to using a bow & arrow. As for protection or to cause harm, well we all know the answer to that.

Over my lifetime so far, I've had my home broken into four times & I guess I was lucky to be alive. I do not own a gun but it has been on my list of things to get for the last 10 years or so. The only reason for me is just in case I need it for protection, that's all. In the U.S., it is our option to own a gun and it is an option that I agree with. As long as it is used for hunting or protection that is fine with me. Besides, cops are never there when you actually need them, just there when you don't need them.

Originally posted by kattraxx

reply to post by kattraxx

 

I agree. If you don't believe you can shoot someone, don't own a gun.

Ah, but there's the rub. Unless you know from experience (say you're a former LEO or a soldier that saw combat), you can only guess if you'd actually be able to pull the trigger; for a variety of reasons. For instance, say the bad guy is hiding behind that $4000 big screen TV? Could you shoot through the screen and kill him? Or would you hesitate?

I believe I'd prefer a case of PSTD to being beaten, raped, or dead. No contest.

Again, BETTER alternatives are:
1. If you are living in a high(er) crime area - move;
2. Get a good security system and have your home burglar proofed by an expert consultant; install exterior lighting, etc.;
3. Get a dog (maybe even two);
4. Install a safe room and the ability to barracade yourself in the bedroom with a gun-resistant wall. (Few burglars carry guns, but fewer still will shoot through a wall).

But people seem to prefer a rather simplistic solution that doesn't take a lot of work - buy a gun and hope. I'm just saying there are possibly better solutions.

To me, the illusion of safety is depending on a phone instead of a gun.

Not necessarily. (See above). I'd say having a handgun and shooting enough to remain competent should be fairly far down on the list. I'd much prefer to be in a safe room with a cell phone.

Well........... they are welcome to try, lol.

Don't be silly. Even locked in a gun safe there are times when you are not home and if you have more than one gun you can't carry them all with you. If you carry, what do you do with the gun when you're in Church or at a School? A car is a relatively insecure location to store a gun even temporarily.

Again, I'm just suggesting the issue is more complex than just 'get a gun and you're protected at home'.

For instance, if there's a 3% lifetime risk of being at home during a burglary and a 20% chance that a gun accident will occur, is it really a wise decision? Perhaps. It's hard to quantify the value of peace of mind, if that's what having a handgun will do.

Originally posted by jitombe

Over my lifetime so far, I've had my home broken into four times & I guess I was lucky to be alive.

Really? I'd be very interested to hear a synopsis of those.

Did you take any additional security steps between those incidents?

That's got to be almost a record, unless you run a liquor store out of the front room. Seriously. (Not doubting you, just remarking).


[edit on 29-1-2008 by Badge01]

The only use for guns are KILLING!! KILLING anyone who seeks out deadly intent against me or my family in the privacy of my own home.