Muhammad - Prophet or Profiteer of God?

reply to post by kangjia57


Does that mean that Allah made homosexuals and homosexual tendancies?

Just interested in who you believe created murderers, rapists, pedophiles etc? If god created them then why does he also choose to punish them by death?

Thats the problem with religion, its all one big contradiction, based on blind faith, ancient myths and the word of man.

If he is all powerful why choose a 6th century prophet to spread the word? Why not reshape the stars or write a message on the moon in block capitals? Why is it in documented history, not once have we had any recorded miracle or contact with God? All we ever get is the word of man, claiming to be Prophet's of God. In todays world they would be ridiculed and labelled as crazy. Convenient that Muhammad declared himself the last Prophet of God dont you think?

Time to believe in yourself, not a book.

Originally posted by george_gaz
So Kangjia,

Your children "peacefully" take over the UK and it becomes an Islamic state. It has NEVER been an Islmaic state yet now that Muslims live there does that mean it belongs to Islam?
I choose not to pay your absurd non-believer tax. What happens to me?

You will basically have a balkans situation before that happens, sad but true

Reply to george_gaz

Your children "peacefully" take over the UK and it becomes an Islamic state. It has NEVER been an Islmaic state yet now that Muslims live there does that mean it belongs to Islam?
I choose not to pay your absurd non-believer tax. What happens to me?

Wont become an Islamic state till majority are Muslims,and when majority are Muslims,it will indeed become a Islamic state.

Well if you don’t pay tax than you can keep the cash in your pocket matey!

Originally posted by kangjia57
Reply to george_gaz

Wont become an Islamic state till majority are Muslims,and when majority are Muslims,it will indeed become a Islamic state.

Well if you don’t pay tax than you can keep the cash in your pocket matey!

By when you actually mean "if" it becomes an Islamic state. I highly doubt the British public will ever be predominantly Muslim, in fact if the problem becomes much worse than it already is you can bet there will be some right wing extremist's fighting fire with fire.

the problem is Muslims are fed a false notion of growing power and dominance.

"Every day thousands of Muslim intellectuals are leaving Islam. They find Islam inconsistent with science, logics, human rights and ethics. Millions of Iranians already have left Islam. The enlightened Muslims of other nationalities are not far behind. This is the beginning of a mass exodus from Islam. It is a movement that is already in motion and nothing can stop it.

However the exodus from Islam is not reserved to the intellectuals but also the average Muslims are finding that Islam is not the way to God but to ignorance, poverty and wars. They are leaving Islam to embrace other religions especially the Christianity.

Perhaps it is best to listen to the truth coming from the mouth of the horse. The Internet site aljazeera.net published an interview with Ahmad Al Qataani أحمد القطعاني An important Islamic cleric who said: “In every hour, 667 Muslims convert to Christianity. Everyday, 16,000 Muslims convert to Christianity. Ever year, 6 million Muslims convert to Christianity

Again, doesn't the Koran say the land of Israel belongs to the Jews and that they will return to their land in the last days?

Qur'an 17:104 and 5:21.

"And We said thereafter to the Children of Israel, Dwell securely in the land of promise... And We said unto the Children of Israel after him: Dwell in the land... We shall bring you as a crowd gathered out of various nations... And We said to the Israelites after him: Dwell in the land..."

What do these scriptures mean in their context? What do Muslims think they mean?

reply to post by Grenade



Hmmm...the thing is: pretty much the same kind of things can be said of many of the early Christian leaders circa 100 AD to 300 AD (possibly it went on for much longer too..). Stories of Christian bishops taking the 'virgin girls' into their homes - and having their wicked ways with them, charging people money for advice - and making small fortunes in the process, telling their followers it was honourable to be a Martyr - then conveniently dissapearing when the Romans turned up to arrest them, 'fixing' bishopric elections to get their 'men' in....etc, etc.

Most organised religions are full of the same small-time conmen, carpet-baggers and shifty, highly dubious characters....


J.


[edit on 10-12-2007 by jimbo999]

I must say, that is a very good question, and certainly an interesting thread topic. Unfortunately it comes down to credibility of sources, something which is extremely difficult to acertain, given the amount of time that has passed since the time of Muhammad and the inevitable interference with such evidence.

Personally, I see Muhammad as a man who rehashed the bible in order to gain power, influence, money and the "justification" (his words were from god afterall) to act in any way which he saw fit. To me, he simply rewrote the bible to give men the power to do almost whatever they want, at the expense of women (clothing, multiple wives allowed for men but not husbands for women etc) and people of other religions (holy war). It has suited the leaders of many (not all, there are some perfectly civil muslim states and leaders) muslim countries since, because they can do essentially whatever they want and the people they oppress don't care, because they believe it is how things should be.

I have nothing against muslims at all, to me it is the individual that counts, not where they are from or what religion they follow. My opinion of Muhammad is merely my opinion, based on the evidence I have seen and it is my opinion of him alone, not all people that follow him, so I hope that nobody feels the need to flame me or think that I have something against muslims. I guess you could call me a religious cynic in general, for I do not believe in god of any sort, I merely believe in a source of existence, the metaphorical fountain of energy that spawned the universe and of which we are made.

reply to post by mrmanuva


I couldn't agree more. All he really did was take the Jewish testimony and turned it into an Arab testimony. Instead of the descendants of Isaac (the Jews) being the chosen people, Islam claims the descendants of Ishmael (the Arabs) are the chosen people.

He also took Jewish and Christian eschatology and gave it an Arab spin. Basically none of the prophecies in the Koran differ from Biblical prophecies. They are merely switched to an Arab perspective.

Personally, I think Mohammad was a deceiver who wanted to create a religion to push the agenda of his own Arab people, to spread his own people's power and territory, to subjugate women, and to allow the things he personally wanted such as multiple wives.



[edit on 12/10/2007 by AshleyD]

reply to post by AshleyD


The similarities between the bible and qu'ran are actually quite striking when you think about the individual events, prohpecies etc. I never realise until a very good friend of mine (a muslim) started telling me about some of the stories from the Qu'ran, and whilst I am not a christian, I have read the bible many times and so realise the similarities straight away. We discussed it for a while and later did some comparison reading of both, he was just as surprised as me. I guess we didn't expect it, with Jainism, Hinduism and Buddhism, you expect to find many similarities, because they are all different takes on the Vedas, but Islam and Christianity, on the surface seem legions apart.

reply to post by mrmanuva


Thank you for a rational and well thought out response. My feelings on the matter are exactly the same and i applaud your thinking. If only we could all see through the lies and deception of man then it would perhaps bring us closer to God. Not through another's beliefs but a general understanding that we are all connected and isolation through religion is a backward step for humanity. Peace of the heart and mind through equality.

For the record when i refer to God i do not invisage an almighty being who carved man in his own image. More the fabric which binds us together and creates the wonderful diversity and beauty abundant in the universe. Not only that, the ability to recognise this beauty through the one thing religion tries to, but cannot explain, the soul.




[edit on 10/12/07 by Grenade]

Originally posted by Grenade
For the record when i refer to God i do not invisage an almighty being who carved man in his own image. More the fabric which binds us together and creates the wonderful diversity and beauty abundant in the universe. Not only that, the ability to recognise this beauty through the one thing religion tries to, but cannot explain, the soul.
[edit on 10/12/07 by Grenade]

This is pretty much exactly how I feel. Cosmic consciousness, ultimate reality, whatever you want to call it. To me, if there really is a god as described in the bible, qu'ran etc, then he is not worth worshipping. A being who would happily wipe people out because they don't do as he says, or who wants to be worshipped, is no different to the many evil dictators we have seen in this world. I truly cannot understand how people can despise such dictators and yet worship a being who is in many ways just the same. If I am wrong and the God of the bible exists, then I would gladly spend eternity in hell, knowing that I remained true to my morals, rather than worship a being that would rather cleanse the earth of "bad" people rather than help them become better people.

Originally posted by Grenade
For the record when i refer to God i do not invisage an almighty being who carved man in his own image.

For the record, Muslims don't believe God created man in His image either.

[edit on 10-12-2007 by Beachcoma]

Kangjia you said:
"Muslims are not forcing anything onto the British population!"

Yet you also say that you are going to aid Muslims in the take over the UK so that it becomes an Islamic state? If that is not forcing something into the UK population then what is?

Kangjia you also said:
"After enforcing Islamic law, everyone under it has to abide by it Muslim or not Muslim. And if non-Muslims don’t like it than they should leave the country."

So again, when the UK is an Islamic state I shall have to leave? What happens if YOUR Islamic world domination does happen, where will I go because I sure as **** will not convert.
So also like the Jews have taken Palestine by force and should give it back, if I request you to give the UK back, will you oblige or be selfish and keep it for yourself?

Kangjia, when talking about one of your future children possibly becoming gay you said:
"If I found out if one of my ‘sprogs’ was gay than I would disown him here and if in Sharia law I will take care of him according to shariat!"

By that we go back to this "claim" you made about throwing gays off a cliff because Mo said so?
If you ever become a father (and I shall ask God/Allah, Vishnu, Ganesha, Balrama, Hanuman, Sheeva, Scorpion, Sub Zero and Kano to not allow this) I do hope that your mind changes and you grow up. Killing your own child! If this is what is going through the minds of young British Muslims then I shall fight to the damn end to keep this a CofE nation.

Kangjia, on the topic of gays not being able to control their inhibitions you said:
"Impossible matey! Trust me on this one!Theres no SOLID evidence to prove it and I mean NONE and there wont be no matter how much science and tech advances."

Can the same not be said about the existence of Allah?

Kangjia, you say:
"The Prophet's mission was to restore the worship of the One True God."

I assume the prophet's mission means the now muslim mission. Am I wrong in saying that God and Allah are different terminology for the same thing? The "one true God" if this is the case then why is it going to be, when Muslims own the world, unnacceptable for Christians to worship the same thing just in a different way?

Kangjia you said when talking about sects in Islam:
"Creating innovations and own ideas in Islam is a very big sin and will lead straight to Hellfire matey!!! "

So when Muslims rule the world and all western infidels have perished is the main body/sect of Islam going to turn on the others? (Kangjia: "the right ones are those who follow the MAJORITY ") Surely they too are infidels if they do not follow exactly what you do/in turn how Mo lived?

Kangjia, this line not only shows your disrespect to women but also your aggression when dealing with other islamic "sects", shame on you:
"Girl submit yourself to the Sunnah of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him).Than will you find true faith and wisdom girl!!
You people will go to hellfire yourselves!"

You words Kangjia:
"Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him)=Final profit matey "

Yes profit, I am sure that is exactly what Mo was after when he came up with his own religion.

Kangjia you said:
"Yes we can achieve peace even if people are from other religious backgrounds."

So why does Islam feel the need to be so damn greedy and penetrate and convert (I am fully aware that Christianity did this with force before you babble on about that) other religions and to spread it's "peaceful" seed across the UK as you have stated it will do? Can we all not just get along?

Kangjia you said Islam spreads and :
"continues to spread because its peaceful"

Is it? Is it really that peaceful? And be honest, do you see peace in the goals of YOUR Islam?

Kangjia you said:
"Islam didn’t teach me to hate anyone"

Yet you have also said you will kill your own child if he/she turns out to be gay? Is that love?
So if Islam does not teach this hate, then why have you spoken aggressively about the death (and condoned this) of gays, and seemingly other sects of Islam? Are you sure that you are following Islam or are you following something that claims to be Islam yet has other, more violent, agendas?

Kangjia you said when speaking of the expansion of Israel:
“If they try expanding than it will be the biggest threat to peace because the Muslims in ME wont let it happen.
The Israelis are trying to occupy Muslim lands and extend their jewish lands!”

So why is that you cannot see how YOUR Islamic expansion is not a threat? One rule for Muslims and one rule for the rest of the world right? What exactly is politically/ethically correct about Muslims inhabiting UK lands and taking over UK lands then?
So both the Jews and the Muslims have the goal to “occupy” so what makes it right for Muslims to start “occupying” the UK the way that YOUR Islam intends to?

It was mentioned earlier in this post:
“Fight against those who believe not in Allah” - (Sura al-Tawba 9:29). the Quran
1- "Invitation first" (that is, call them first to embrace Islam).
2- "If they refuse, then war." "The sword",

Yet Kangjia you say that Islam will not hurt non-believers? Please clarify where it says that if Islam takes over the UK and I say “No I will not convert, and I will not pay your tax.” Will I and my family be ok?


If you could answer these questions honestly I would much appreciate that.

Originally posted by mrmanuva

This is pretty much exactly how I feel. Cosmic consciousness, ultimate reality, whatever you want to call it. To me, if there really is a god as described in the bible, qu'ran etc, then he is not worth worshipping. A being who would happily wipe people out because they don't do as he says, or who wants to be worshipped, is no different to the many evil dictators we have seen in this world. I truly cannot understand how people can despise such dictators and yet worship a being who is in many ways just the same. If I am wrong and the God of the bible exists, then I would gladly spend eternity in hell, knowing that I remained true to my morals, rather than worship a being that would rather cleanse the earth of "bad" people rather than help them become better people.

I have already touched on this before. Hitler to the German people, must have seemed a richeous leader when in power and his support was almost unquestioned. If you base your own beliefs and ideology on the thoughts or opinions of others, then you open yourself to deception. Morality should come from within, however, if i were constantly bombarded by my peers to adopt their beliefs from an early age without question, then it will effect my judgement. Hitler realised this hence he forged the Hitler youth.

I am not comparing Hitler to Muhammad, only showing the consequences when the morals and belief's of others are forced upon people. Essentially this is brainwashing and social conditioning to control the masses. Same #, just a different smell. I dont have the answer to the question of what we base our education or laws upon, i just know that no one man, or book for that matter, has the answer. Searching within may be a start.

Originally posted by Beachcoma

Originally posted by Grenade
For the record when i refer to God i do not invisage an almighty being who carved man in his own image.

For the record, Muslims don't believe God created man in His image either.

[edit on 10-12-2007 by Beachcoma]

Hey mate, good job i didnt state that this was the belief of Muslims then, isnt it? Otherwise i would have been giving out false information or being ignorant. If i was referring to Muslims, i personally would have used the word Allah, not God.
(As i personally see them as two different things... Allah being a Muslims interpretation of the creator, God being my opinion.)

For the record i just stated the definition of my God. Its a common misconception that when someone uses that word, they are reffering to a big bearded man, sitting on a cloud or some other religious interpretation.

I dont believe God is a being of any sort, more like the sum of all parts. Each atom, in each rock, living animal or plant, on every planet, in every solar system, in every galaxy, in every universe and all the space/time/matter in between. Thats what i would define as God.

However, not only would that be beyond my comprehension to understand God but i dont think all the hard disks, on all the servers, transmitting data through all the networks on the entire "Internet" have enough space or bandwidth to explain "God", even if i could put "it" into words
(I also think the ATS team wouldnt be too happy if i tried as the server would probably crash, nor would my fingers last)

So the idea that someone manged to fit it into a book and say it is final is simply ignorant.
(Now i am referring to Muhammad/Jesus or any other so called Prophet)

Bet hey, maybe in wrong. Afterall in the words of Bill Hicks "its just a ride".

You seem like a nice chap so lets not nit pick each others words in the future Im sure being the intelligent person that you are, we share lots of common beliefs and ideas.

[edit on 10/12/07 by Grenade]

reply to post by mrmanuva


Can you back up all of your claims with quotes from the Qur'an as evidence?

Again, the Qur'an is something respect by all Muslims where as the Hadith's aren't. Furthermore, they are accepted as being written by "man" and thus subject to being "false" in some reguards.

reply to post by Odium


jorden was set up for the palestinians--------israel for the israelites--------why do we have to give our land to squtters that have their own country ?----------our situation is the same as if you went on vacation---or were put in prison----when you return to your G-D given home you would expect it to be yours still------but when you get there find a bunch of squatters have moved in and tell you to get lost-----it belongs to them-------you know same idea as illegals crossing from mexico------soon they'll be telling americans to get----this is our old land not yours !

Originally posted by Grenade
Was Muhammad a real Prophet of God or using the name of God to forward his political and military ambitions?

Impossible to say. He lived too long ago and history has been changed to fit the agenda of those telling his story. IF (and I do mean - IF) he is like most of the 'men of God' on this planet, then he was nothing more than a fella using the name 'God' to further his own agenda.

Are all Muslims potential extremists?

Every person on this planet is a potential extremist for _______ (fill in the blank). All people have the capability to be passionate, and all have the weakness to be brainwashed and/or exploited.

Does the Qur'an promote peace or war in the name of God?

Both. But it is mostly INTERPRETED towards the war and death.

Was the Prophet Muhammad a noble and honourable man or a war mongering dictator with a fetish for children?

Anyone with a fetish for children can not be 'noble and honourable'.

Is it a lack of education and economic growth ...

Ugh... see the quote by the French President in my signature?

"I reject the kind of naive, wishful thinking that makes every delinquent a victim of society and every riot a social problem." - French President Nicolas Sarkozy

Are Muslims justified by taking a defensive stance over every little insult to their Prophet?

Of course not.

Should Islam be modernised and adapt to Western Culture if Muslims themselves wish to integrate into our Countries?

The non-moderates don't want to integrate into the countries - they want to take them over and make them Islamic states run by Muslim laws. No amount of 'modernization of Islam' could change that.



[edit on 12/10/2007 by FlyersFan]