Muhammad - Prophet or Profiteer of God?

Sorry that it has taken me so long to reply to this thread, I have been rather busy this weekend.

I’ll go through and answer what I can, so bare with me if I miss anything.

Keebie – the questions you ask are interesting but rather misguided.

Muslims do not hate Jewish people because they “killed” Jesus – either directly (as some people think) or indirectly (paid the Romans) to do so. However, let it be noted that in the 1200s the British Government began to punish Jewish people for the murder of Jesus. It was actually European people who pushed that idea and its roots can be traced back to this.

Here’s an interesting thing to note:

"Jews Killed The Lord Jesus" – "I Thess. 2:14, 15" – "Settled!" says the sign in front of Lovingway United Pentecostal Church

[1]

What you see here is a Christian church saying that the Jews killed Jesus. Now you ask 1000 Christians this question – “Do you think the Jewish people killed Jesus?” and I am sure you’ll get more than 1 answer. This means that they as a religion do not solidly agree on something. Now, I ask you – find a quote in the Qur’an that states that the Jewish people killed Jesus. If it isn’t in the Qur’an then it’s something added after and isn’t going to be accepted by Muslims.

The problem with the Jewish people is actually the Zionist Political movement. This itself isn’t a problem with the Jewish people – there are Jewish people who disagree with the state of Israel. [2] Ironically this is a great source for Muslims, it displays that Jewish people also disagree with the actions of the State of Israel.

The whole reason for the conflict in brief is:
During the British Mandate of Palestine we promised the land to the Palestinian people in support for us during WW2.
Jewish Terrorists attempted to side with the Nazi’s and constructed a campaign of terror on the British soldiers of the region and the Arabs.
The Arabs responded and then Irgun began an “Eye for an Eye” campaign.
Several groups of people such as the Rothchilds began to buy up land and give it to Jewish people.
We changed our mind in the U.N. and gave the land to the Jewish people because of crimes the Europeans committed along with the fact the terrorist attacks had began to cause us a lot of problems.
The Jewish terrorist groups (Igrun for example) continued their terrorist campaign against the Arabs (not all Muslims). *
The State of Israel did not bring Irgun into line and allowed them to continue terrorising people.

* For instance, kidnapping, beating a police officer to death, etcetera.

The problem Muslims have is how one sided the whole situation is. Every time Israel kills 1 terrorist and kills 10 innocent people this is seen as a victory. But you can not imagine the loos those people must feel, when there mother, father, brother, sister, son or daughter is lost. Lost because they went to work, they went to a market. Furthermore things like the current Israeli land grab are allowed, as well as breaking U.N. resolutions in the hundreds.

If you desire to remove terrorism by Muslims then we have to look at our one sided actions to Israel. We should not be giving them money, we should not be trading with them, just like we shouldn’t trade with Iran, North Korea, etcetera, till they abide by international law and they stop terrorising people.

There’s also a simple solution.

The Jewish people, the Muslims people, the Christians people clearly cannot rule Jerusalem; there’s an historic precedent here that displays this. So what we do instead is so simple, we remove it and have it as an independent state – where both Israel and the State of Palestine can have its Parliament in it. A council of Islamic, Jewish and Christian leaders can be set-up and thus help to rule over the city under the watchful eye of the United Nations. The President of the Council will be a randomly selected person from a group of “neutral” Nations, such as Japan (as example.)

Oddly enough, this also displays the fact you have add in the last 100 years:
Islamic
Jewish
Christian

Terror groups that have attacked people, innocent people this displays that terrorism is not the fault of Islam and thus this part of any argument can be removed.

When people bother to do some research, they will see Islam isn’t “black and white”. Right now on this thread, you have several people of the Islamic faith posting and they display several viewpoints. However, nobody desires to listen to those who are in the non-radical field and furthermore people constantly pinpoint Islamic states and use them as an example.

A common argument I see here is the rights of people in Islamic Nations. Take Saudi Arabia – people constantly parrot how badly they treat people, ironically Bin Laden has criticised Saudi Arabia[3], ironically it is the British and the United States of America, which constantly funds these people. It is our Government that gives these people the power they have – look at the weapons they use, they use those to oppress people and it is we who are selling them.

Then take Iran, supposedly Iran hates Jewish people and their religion but Iran has the second largest population of Jewish people in the Middle East and has around 100,000 Jewish people including one who was a former Vice-President in my lifetime but if Iran was so bad for Jewish people. You’d not get that many there when Israel is so near.

Fact is:
Terrorism is not a part of the Islamic Religion; it’s an aspect of oppressed and misguided people.
Islam, just like every Religion has several viewpoints, some of these are extreme.
Extremism isn’t limited to Islam.
There’s not an aspect of the Qur’an that violent or cruel, but there are Islamic texts that are violent.
Cruelty and violence isn’t an aspect of Islamic Society, it is an aspect of every society.

Everyone who whole-heartedly attacks Islam needs to take a long hard look in the mirror and think for a moment. When you attack some one because of an aspect of their society, which is not reflective of the whole of that society – you are in fact no different then they are.

You can sit down and attack them and attack them and keep on attacking with quotes after quotes of books that are not accepted by the majority. You can use references of polls and surveys that display a percentage of Muslims think in one way that’s negative to you. But the fact is, you can’t reference it in the Qur’an without using misquotations and just because some Islamic Nations are hostile doesn’t mean they all are. Unless you can display all of them being hostile, then your points are wasted and using dictatorships to quantify your points and somehow make them valid is misguided due to the fact that the people are not in control in these Nations.

Your hostility towards Islam is in fact making things worse. As can be seen in Ireland with the Northern Ireland conflicts over the last few hundred years, it is our lack of communication that helps to breed terrorism. As we turn our back and refuse to listen and to help meet things groups halfway we in fact make them stronger. Every day the West sits and criticises these people we drive diplomacy underground and help to radicalise people, because they are not stupid and it is the most perfect form of propaganda. The moment the West said we wouldn’t talk to terrorists was the moment they gained so much strength because if we won’t listen the only message they can give us is one of violence.

We need to accept we have helped create Islamic Terrorism, just like we did Jewish, Christian and pretty much every form of terrorism. They don’t terrorise us for no reason they terrorise us for several reasons, including our actions in the Middle East.
The day we bother to sit down and discuss things with these people, they day we stop propping up tin-pot dictators that harm these people we will begin to remove terrorism from society.

Why not do not some good for the World and these poor people not just Muslims but of all creeds, colours and faiths?

The fact is – either you are so blinded by contemporary media, you think Islam is to blame or you are bigoted beyond belief because when you generalize incidents to billions of people you honestly must have your head in the clouds. Because if half of these people wanted to destroy the West, were terrorists, were evil, we’d be in a much more dangerous society then we already are. Iraq would have been impossible to invade, people would be getting blown up every day in every Western Nation.

Remove your heads from the clouds and just think for once.

The majority of Muslims, like everyone else just want to be happy, have a nice life and enjoy their afterlife.

[1] www.worldnetdaily.com...
[2] www.jewsagainstzionism.com...
[3] www.saudinf.com...

OK Kangjia, you say that Israel should give the land back to Palestine because the Jews are expanding.

Kangjia says:
"If Israel stops military actions and give the lands back that belongs to the palestenians than we can achieve PEACE.

But its not gona happen because the Israelis aim is to expand.

The land rightfully belongs to the Palestinians and Israel is not willing to give that back. Not only that! these guys wana expand big time.If they try expanding than it will be the biggest threat to peace because the Muslims in ME wont let it happen."

What I want to know:
If Israel is trying to expand this is a threat to peace?
BUT if Islam tries to expand, as has been said earlier in this thread with the use of violence against infidels (I believe Kangjia you used your children as a reference for the expansion of Islam in the UK) is that not a threat to peace?

Goes back to the arrogance of Muslims.

As I sit here and read this thread I am continually reminded that this fight is between two sons of Abraham (Abrahim). The Ishmelites believe that the land is theirs because Ishmael was the first born, although he was born in disobedience to the plan of God. The Children of Isaac (Israel) believe the land is theirs because Issac was the son of the promise. So their fight will go on untill Christ returns and restores all things. The Christians believe (by and large) that the land belongs to the children of Israel and as evidence site the fulfillment of the rebirth of Israel in 1948 according to the prophecy of Ezekiel. From what I understand, Muhammed sought out the Jews for acceptence as a prophet of God and was rejected as a false teacher. Muhammed hated them after that, but then sought out the Christians and was denied acceptence because he taught against the divinity and ressurection of Christ, and he hated them also. All this has come to today. It will most probably end in a large scale nuclear war.

To answer the question and to stay on subject one has to enter the mind and intent of Muhammed, but I'm afraid it will probably be a mystery forever.

The proper question to stay on subject would be, what do you believe the intent of Muhammed might have been, a prohet? or or a profiteer?

Very good post Odium, I too was away having a birthday party.

Even if Palestine was reastablished it cannot and will not live in peace with:

Islamic
Jewish
Christian

It wont happen. Remove my head from the clouds and not listen to the media?

I am NOT listening to the media but talking to Muslim people and there beliefs. Also, did you not see I said I been to the middle east and seen practices and prayer etc on a daily basis. In no way am I putting down the religion I am just getting to a simple point. Who is right? Jews or Muslims? Personally I don't care who is but I wish all this hatred and killings would stop. Yes, on both sides but each somehow think the other has some world domination issue. Whatever, I don't see either side taking over in my lifetime but how many people will suffer in the meantime?

Both religions tie into each other back to Abraham but somewhere they split making each say "o my religion is right". How about this...........they are both right what do you think?

Argument well taken about Palestine and perhaps they were misguided but in history and on a daily basis in some fashion we are are. The day my bill collectors say "Oops, I over billed you in interest for 15 years here is all your money back" is the day I pull my head out of the clouds and believe the war the Palestine's lost the Jews will give back all the land.

The hatred is there we both know it. I heard over and over it has to do with the death of Jesus and it by no means is a fact just what I have been hearing. Palestine is a catalysis as well agreed and will continue until they get there land back and each day they try. And each day brings more pain and suffering to each side. I can only assume instead of massing together and destroying there enemy they pick at the war machine each day in hopes it will fall eventually but the cost is tremendous on both sides.

mahhamid is no more special a person as you and me

as goes jesus or buddha or Krishna etc

Originally posted by kangjia57
Reply to Ironclad

I believe in being a good person & try my best to be as decent a human being as possible, without joining a sect like islam or Christianity.

Well i respect that because thats how you believe it should be.

But i believe differently so i will see things according to what in believe matey!

So hypertetcally, if My country ever became a total islamic state what would happen to people like me who refuse to accept Islam?

Mohammed says that non-believers must be slain.. do you agree with these words or not? "its a simple question & one you have been dodging since this thread began"...!!!

Everytime you have been asked to enlighten someon on islamic missinterpretation, you simply cut & paste verses from the Qoran. not once have you explained in detail what these words actually mean.

Do you fear to explain because there is no misunderstanding of the things that Muhammed has said?


On a side note.

A little bit of news from Iran showing how wonderful & loving Islam really is...

Iran to hang teenage girl attacked by rapists
Sat. 07 Jan 2006

Iran Focus

Tehran, Iran, Jan. 07 – An Iranian court has sentenced a teenage rape victim to death by hanging after she weepingly confessed that she had unintentionally killed a man who had tried to rape both her and her niece.

The state-run daily Etemaad reported on Saturday that 18-year-old Nazanin confessed to stabbing one of three men who had attacked the pair along with their boyfriends while they were spending some time in a park west of the Iranian capital in March 2005.

Nazanin, who was 17 years old at the time of the incident, said that after the three men started to throw stones at them, the two girls’ boyfriends quickly escaped on their motorbikes leaving the pair helpless.

She described how the three men pushed her and her 16-year-old niece Somayeh onto the ground and tried to rape them, and said that she took out a knife from her pocket and stabbed one of the men in the hand.

As the girls tried to escape, the men once again attacked them, and at this point, Nazanin said, she stabbed one of the men in the chest. The teenage girl, however, broke down in tears in court as she explained that she had no intention of killing the man but was merely defending herself and her younger niece from rape, the report said.

The court, however, issued on Tuesday a sentence for Nazanin to be hanged to death.

Last week, a court in the city of Rasht, northern Iran, sentenced Delara Darabi to death by hanging charged with murder when she was 17 years old. Darabi has denied the charges.

In August 2004, Iran’s Islamic penal system sentenced a 16-year-old girl, Atefeh Rajabi, to death after a sham trial, in which she was accused of committing “acts incompatible with chastity”.

The teenage victim had no access to a lawyer at any stage and efforts by her family to retain one were to no avail. Atefeh personally defended herself and told the religious judge that he should punish those who force women into adultery, not the victims. She was eventually hanged in public in the northern town of Neka.

If Islam became law in western countries, how many young women would be put to death for not being Virgins?

Nearly 60% of the un-married female populations of most Western countries should be executed by Islamic standards..lol

[edit on 12/10/2007 by Ironclad]

Reply to george_gaz

What I want to know:
If Israel is trying to expand this is a threat to peace?
BUT if Islam tries to expand, as has been said earlier in this thread with the use of violence against infidels (I believe Kangjia you used your children as a reference for the expansion of Islam in the UK) is that not a threat to peace?

Goes back to the arrogance of Muslims.

I didn’t say Islam should spread through the use of violence,Islam only spreads and keep spreading because people find peace in it.

I said when I have kids,they will spread Islam peacefully (I didn’t say they will spread it with violence)

We should look at the way Israel is trying to expand matey;

Israel keeps clearing lands by bulldozing palestinians houses from it. Israel keeps building walls and fences to show which part of lands they own. Israel keeps occupying new lands and there excuses for it(we are keeping terrorists away).

Their ultimate goal is to occupy –

I will fix your boundary from the red sea to the sea of the philistines and from the wilderness to the river Euphrates

As stated by my Jewish friend yahn goodney in previous posts!

I really hate threads like this 'cause you'll always get a few stray ignorant asshats(who've never really spent time with a Muslim) coming in making stupid comments just to stir the pot.

I am a Muslim. I love rock music. I do not hate Jews(just the Israeli govt). I do not hate Christians(except the ppl blindly backing up the Israeli govt). I do not hate and want to kill homosexuals(my gf's best mate is a Buddhist lesbian). I was just as shocked and angry as any HUMAN would be when 9/11 happened. I do not condone any act of violence other than that of self-defence. I respect people's beliefs enough not to belittle or make fun of them for it(something that some posters here lack).

You always hear about how women in Islam do not have equal rights, polygamy etc etc etc. Have you heard these:

"The women have rights similar to the rights against them, according to what is equitable." [Qur'an 2:228]

"Never will I waste the work of a worker among you, whether male or female. You are members, one of another."[Qur'an 3:195]

"And if you fear that you will not deal fairly towards the orphans, marry of the women who seem good to you, two or three or four, and if you fear that you cannot do justice between them , then (marry) only one." [Qur'an 4:3]

Did you know there's a saying in Islam that goes, "Paradise lies beneath a mother's feet"? If that isn't the highest honour you could bestow a person, then I don't know what is.

Did you know that Muhammad, when questioned by a disciple as to who after God and his Prophet should be revered most, Muhammad's answer was "mother", not once, not twice but three times. The position of the mother in the eyes of her sons and daughters should be three times higher than that of the father.

Check this out as narrated by Aisha Umm al-Muminin:

I asked the Prophet who has the greatest right over a man, and he said, "His mother."

I dunno about you guys, but I kinda feel like we Muslim men kinda got the shaft there LOL.

Stop looking to the ME if you want a taste of non-fundamentalist Islam. Some parts of the ME shoves bad Islam in your face that even I wouldn't wanna be there. For a place that's the cradle of Islam, they seem to be doing a good job of butchering the teachings for their own agendas and giving the rest of us a bad-rep. I bet if some of the more ignorant posters here were to hang out with me for a day and at the end of it, if I were to reveal myself as a Muslim, they'd probably be ashamed for being ignorant in the first place. Or at least I hope they would be.

Even in the more "civilized" West. Nothing is sacred. Everything's a joke. You say you respect another man's belief and yet you make fun of it/him the moment he turns around. Doesn't that seem childish? Just because you don't respect your own religions and beliefs doesn't mean you can make fun of other religions and expect their believers to share your lack of respect. Believe it or not, some people still actually believe that somethings are sacred. Show some respect, man.

The problem isn't religion. It's our inability as humans to respect each other's personal beliefs.

Reply to ironclad

So hypertetcally, if My country ever became a total islamic state what would happen to people like me who refuse to accept Islam?

People who refuse to accept Islam wont be killed matey!They can live as they want and pay their taxes matey!

Mohammed says that non-believers must be slain.. do you agree with these words or not? "its a simple question & one you have been dodging since this thread began"...!!!

NO Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) didn’t say non-believers should be slain.

Everytime you have been asked to enlighten someon on islamic missinterpretation, you simply cut & paste verses from the Qoran. not once have you explained in detail what these words actually mean.

I am sure you can read English and those verses I have shown are in English aswel matey.

Do you fear to explain because there is no misunderstanding of the things that Muhammed has said?

I don’t fear explaining anything matey,Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) has said things clearly and everything he did was for PEACE.

Reply to d2che

Nice post matey.

The problem isn't religion. It's our inability as humans to respect each other's personal beliefs.

I totally agree with you!

Originally posted by AshleyD
I strongly believe Mohammad was nothing more than a false prophet and profiteer. Anyone should have a hard time swallowing any religion started by one man who claims that only they were given the truth of God.

But AshleyD, you are mistaken. Muhammad did not claim that only he was given the truth of God. What he claimed was that he was the last Prophet/Messenger. He said that his testimony was in agreement with all who came before him. If you are talking about Prophecies, there are numerous prophecies in the Quran, some that have been fulfilled, and some that are yet to be fulfilled. There are numerous prophecies in the Bible that muslims believe were fulfilled by Muhammad.

Keeble, I don't know who your muslim friends are, but the Quran clearly states that nobody killed Jesus, and this is certainly not a reason to build up hatred against them.

Yahn Goodey, the muslims do believe in God, so in that sense they do have a right to be there, but the whole concept of Divine right to live in a certain place is pretty absurd when those people hadn't been there in thousands of years. The crux of the Israel-Palestinian problem (for the Palestinians, at least) is that they were living there comfortably. Their families had been living there for hundreds of years. They even had deeds to the land. But all that does not matter, because Israel wanted it.

This is also relevant to Fromabove, because you seem to think that muslims lay claim on that land because they are descended from Abraham's first born. This is not really true. The only reason they lay claim on it is because they were living on it! BTW, you still haven't answered my question from a few pages back. Where did you get this idea of 'pretend peace' or 'kill them submit' nonsense?

Ironclad, your question is invalid, becaus Muhammad said no such thing (at least not in an absolute 'all non-believers must be slain' way. If you are referring to certain verses from the Quran, if you read them in full and in context, you'll see that it is talking about times of war).

Originally posted by kangjia57
reply to 27jd

ALLAH didnt make Adam and steve!He made Adam and EVE matey!!

If ALLAH is the reason for everything created, then this statement is inherently false- I myself know several adams, and several steves, thereby blowing your silly literalism out of the water with a hefty helping of westen pride!

Originally posted by d2che
I really hate threads like this 'cause you'll always get a few stray ignorant asshats(who've never really spent time with a Muslim) coming in making stupid comments just to stir the pot.

aye, how about the English muslim on this thread, who would support the stoning to death of his own son if he went with another man- who is the ignorant asshat there?

The women have rights similar to the rights against them, according to what is equitable." [Qur'an 2:228]

similar, but not equal

"Never will I waste the work of a worker among you, whether male or female. You are members, one of another."[Qur'an 3:195]

members but not equal

"And if you fear that you will not deal fairly towards the orphans, marry of the women who seem good to you, two or three or four, and if you fear that you cannot do justice between them , then (marry) only one." [Qur'an 4:3]

why no instructions for women to marry several men?

Did you know there's a saying in Islam that goes, "Paradise lies beneath a mother's feet"? If that isn't the highest honour you could bestow a person, then I don't know what is.

a saying isn't the highest honour someone can get

Did you know that Muhammad, when questioned by a disciple as to who after God and his Prophet should be revered most, Muhammad's answer was "mother", not once, not twice but three times. The position of the mother in the eyes of her sons and daughters should be three times higher than that of the father.

revere her, but do not afford her equal status in society with men

Check this out as narrated by Aisha Umm al-Muminin:

I asked the Prophet who has the greatest right over a man, and he said, "His mother."

didn't one of muhammad's wives talk about mulsim women suffering the most?

I dunno about you guys, but I kinda feel like we Muslim men kinda got the shaft there LOL.

well no, I don't think so

Stop looking to the ME if you want a taste of non-fundamentalist Islam. Some parts of the ME shoves bad Islam in your face that even I wouldn't wanna be there. For a place that's the cradle of Islam, they seem to be doing a good job of butchering the teachings for their own agendas and giving the rest of us a bad-rep. I bet if some of the more ignorant posters here were to hang out with me for a day and at the end of it, if I were to reveal myself as a Muslim, they'd probably be ashamed for being ignorant in the first place. Or at least I hope they would be.

I think it is rude and ignorant to berate people for choosing not to be a fan of Islam, regardless of the inherent humanity within individuals- I see no conflict with not having to not "offend" islam and treating an individual with respect based on their actions.

To use another analogy, many (and probably most) Nazi supporters in Germany were probably decent, ordinary people

Even in the more "civilized" West. Nothing is sacred. Everything's a joke. You say you respect another man's belief and yet you make fun of it/him the moment he turns around. Doesn't that seem childish? Just because you don't respect your own religions and beliefs doesn't mean you can make fun of other religions and expect their believers to share your lack of respect. Believe it or not, some people still actually believe that somethings are sacred. Show some respect, man.

Irreverence is a way of life in the west, if someone is offended, that is no cause for violence, and if they feel it is, they should move elsewhere

The problem isn't religion. It's our inability as humans to respect each other's personal beliefs.

that is a large part of it- offence should not be an "offence", though, certainly not in law

[edit on 10-12-2007 by blueorder]

Reply to blueorder

We were talkin about homosexuality matey! Read the posts...

Originally posted by kangjia57
Reply to blueorder

We were talkin about homosexuality matey! Read the posts...

correct, so the saying "God made Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve" is wrong, he made people called Steve too!

Reply to blueorder

correct, so the saying "God made Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve" is wrong, he made people called Steve too!

Not correct matey! The first people god send to earth were adam and eve not adam and steve matey.Got it? Or are you still ?

Originally posted by kangjia57
Reply to blueorder

correct, so the saying "God made Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve" is wrong, he made people called Steve too!

Not correct matey! The first people god send to earth were adam and eve not adam and steve matey.Got it? Or are you still

?

Everything is the product of Allah according to you, all creation is his handiwork- so, there are millions of people called Steve in the world (and who have passed before), so Allah made the Steves too!

ALLAH MADE STEVE CRAM TOO MATEY!

We were talking about homosexuality.And i said to dj27 if god wanted homos than he wouldnt have created adam and eve but he would have created adam and steve.

And Allah made everything matey!

Originally posted by kangjia57
We were talking about homosexuality.And i said to dj27 if god wanted homos than he wouldnt have created adam and eve but he would have created adam and steve.

And Allah made everything matey!

Allah (according to Muslims) made millions of Steves chumley warner!

So Kangjia,

Your children "peacefully" take over the UK and it becomes an Islamic state. It has NEVER been an Islmaic state yet now that Muslims live there does that mean it belongs to Islam?
I choose not to pay your absurd non-believer tax. What happens to me?