Muhammad - Prophet or Profiteer of God?

Originally posted by babloyi
Ahhh...I comprehend. No, 'abroad' doesn't mean going to other lands. 'Abroad' can be outdoors, or outside, etc. The 'another country' meaning is pretty recent. Come now, you never read any of those silly 'old-style' poems, or fantasy novels?

Abroad does mean going to other lands different from one own "regardless of definition of country, recent or not"- there is one interpretation of "outside", but it is overwhelmingly attributed to lands away from your home.

You see the problems, I can use that line, in my interpretation, you can use it in yours?

reply to post by blueorder


I didn't say that the definition of country is recent. I said the 'another country' definition of 'abroad' is recent.

Originally posted by babloyi

I didn't say that the definition of country is recent. I said the 'another country' definition of 'abroad' is recent.

other lands isn't though, which is basically the same thing

reply to post by AshleyD


League of Nations - Mandate A offered the land to the Arabs. I've already given the dates in a previous post. In fact, this was promised a good 20 years before World War 2 had even ended or began. :-)

Again, the Jews should not have been given the land because of crimes the Germanic people committed.

It is very much like - the man across the road killing someone and you going to prison. Why? Because you just do.

reply to post by blueorder


Country:
any considerable territory demarcated by topographical conditions, by a distinctive population, etc.: mountainous country; the Amish country of Pennsylvania.

Land:
any part of the earth's surface that can be owned as property, and everything annexed to it, whether by nature or by the human hand.

Abroad:
out of doors; from one place to another; about: No one was abroad in the noonday heat. The owl ventures abroad at night.

You also have to remember the Words in Arabic for Land, Country, etcetera, can take on many meanings. It is very hard when translating things to fully understand them outside of their origional context.

However, you keep deciding to take the most hostile interpretation of these things. This surely makes you the same as those militants who do it?

Abroad, Land and Country as words in the English language can all mean people within less than 400meters from my house. As I am typing.

Originally posted by Odium
Country:
any considerable territory demarcated by topographical conditions, by a distinctive population, etc.: mountainous country; the Amish country of Pennsylvania.

Land:
any part of the earth's surface that can be owned as property, and everything annexed to it, whether by nature or by the human hand.

Abroad:
out of doors; from one place to another; about: No one was abroad in the noonday heat. The owl ventures abroad at night.

You also have to remember the Words in Arabic for Land, Country, etcetera, can take on many meanings. It is very hard when translating things to fully understand them outside of their origional context.

which is exactly my point, the book promotes peace and war depending on interpretation

However, you keep deciding to take the most hostile interpretation of these things. This surely makes you the same as those militants who do it?

so my discussion on an internet forum that the Koran is being interpreted differently (as there is no definitite CORRECT version) makes me the same as an islamic militant who beheads a baby in Baghdad?

Methinks not

Abroad, Land and Country as words in the English language can all mean people within less than 400meters from my house. As I am typing.

Yes different interpretation, but the common and most widely used interpretation would be to describe foreign lands

Originally posted by blueorder
Yes different interpretation, but the common and most widely used interpretation would be to describe foreign lands

Where would this be?

I mean, you are again saying that these Billion Muslims all believe this. They don't all speak English and thus in Arabic, Farsi, etcetera, you need to look at what it says as well before you can even make that claim.

You love painting Islam with this fantastic paint brush of yours and you are so wide of the mark.

Originally posted by Odium
Where would this be?

In most parts of the world and in most interpretations- why did those bilingual Arab/English speakers translate the English version with "abroad"?, when this term denotes fighting in foreign land and is the most likely interpretation of such a word

I mean, you are again saying that these Billion Muslims all believe this. They don't all speak English and thus in Arabic, Farsi, etcetera, you need to look at what it says as well before you can even make that claim.

You need to stick to the facts, I said the Koran is being interpreted differently, hence not all billion muslims (which I think is a gross overestimation of actual practiscing muslims anyway) have the same interpretation!

The Koran is inherently contradictory and hazy - and, presumably most of the islamic jihadists (in the violent interpretation of struggle) in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq, Algeria etc are not speaking English as a first language, so in their interpretation, it can justify their vioence it would appear too

You love painting Islam with this fantastic paint brush of yours and you are so wide of the mark.

Yes, because the statement "the koran can be interpreted to promote peace and violence" is exactly as you describe- seems you are the one off the mark

I see Al Qaeda bombed Algeria, which version of peaceful Islam were they espousing and do you believe you understand Arabic and the Koran better than them?

Islam is there to be criticised, it is the only hope muslims have off progressing as Christianity did in Eurpoe 500 years ago, and it will not be aided by people who cry at any honest discussion, including fair and balanced statements such as

"the koran can be interpreted to promote peace and violence"

[edit on 12-12-2007 by blueorder]

Originally posted by blueorder

Originally posted by babloyi
I didn't say that the definition of country is recent. I said the 'another country' definition of 'abroad' is recent.

other lands isn't though, which is basically the same thing

Graaaah! Yes it is! The use of the term 'abroad' to mean another country, another land, another continent, another geographically distant place is RECENT. Abroad is used for 'out of doors', 'outside the house', 'without confines' etc. 'Watch out, the witches are abroad!' (and other examples by Odium).

But since you are so insistent about it, I checked up the arabic word, and it is 'darabtum', which means to go to, or go about, or just plain go. No mention of other lands or other countries.

In most countries where English is not the first language, there would be no use of the word 'abroad', because they'd be using a translation into their own language, or reading from the original arabic. Of course, I don't believe there is a problem with the use of the word anyhow, as can easily be realised by looking at any other translation (or even knowing what abroad means).

[edit on 12-12-2007 by babloyi]

Originally posted by babloyi

Graaaah! Yes it is! The use of the term 'abroad' to mean another country, another land, another continent, another geographically distant place is RECENT. Abroad is used for 'out of doors', 'outside the house', 'without confines' etc. 'Watch out, the witches are abroad!' (and other examples by Odium).

Id be interested (and geniunely at that) in where common usage of "abroad" to mean "other lands" is a relatively "recent" adaptation?

But since you are so insistent about it, I checked up the arabic word, and it is 'darabtum', which means to go to, or go about, or just plain go. No mention of other lands or other countries.

First page I have checked re "darabtum"
( a pro Islam site I might add)


www.islamawareness.net...
"O ye who believe! When ye go abroad (darabtum) In the cause of Allah, Investigate carefully, And say not to anyone Who offers you a salutation: 'Thou art none of a Believer!' Coveting the perishable good Of this life: with Allah Are profits and spoils abundant. Even thus were ye yourselves Before, till Allah conferred On you His favours: therefore Carefully investigate. For Allah is well aware Of all that ye do. (The Noble Quran, 4:94)"

So "daraba" literally means "beat", or "go abroad", or "give"

several interpretations, including "go abroad"- now this is a modern internet page, and anyone who speaks english using the term "abroad" means other lands/countries, it is rarely, if ever, used in terms of going "outside"

Originally posted by blueorder
several interpretations, including "go abroad"- now this is a modern internet page, and anyone who speaks english using the term "abroad" means other lands/countries, it is rarely, if ever, used in terms of going "outside"

Modern internet page?! It is the same translation I provided (The Yusuf Ali one)! It has a 'ye' in it! Anyone who speaks english will realise that this is an old work (or at least rendered with an old style translation), and if they are familiar with classical literature, they'd know what 'abroad' means.

[edit on 12-12-2007 by babloyi]

Originally posted by babloyi
Modern internet page?! It is the same translation I provided (The Yusuf Ali one)! It has a 'ye' in it! Anyone who speaks english will realise that this is an old work (or at least rendered with an old style translation), and if they are familiar with classical literature, they'd know what 'abroad' means.

[edit on 12-12-2007 by babloyi]

no, the section I am referring to is

"So "daraba" literally means "beat", or "go abroad", or "give" "

which was not part of that passage, but the website's own commentary on it

you can see how one passage is open to interpretation, which is kinda my point- for evidence that it isnt even the english translation, one only has to look at those islamic militants who are fluent in arabic who use the koran to justify their actions, and those who use it to give support, approval or equivocal condemnation to such actions

reply to post by Odium


i said israel was set up for the palestinians and israel for the israelis---------------------you say i the boy shot myself in the foot because the league of nations created palestine effective 29th september 1923.-------------------------i dont recall saying anything about how or Who set up the lands for their respective occupants------------this will probably be hard to get across because i gather you do not respect the authority of G-D or the bible---------but i'll try:websters encyclopedic dictionary-Amman the capital of jordan and origionally the capital of the ammonites.strongs exhaustive concordance rabbah/rabbath amman---a city of the ammonites.who are the ammonites ?genesis 11:31 abraham leaves ur of the chaldeans and with him also goes lot and they make their way to haran.when abraham becomes 75 years old in 2086 bce Yahvah tells him to leave haran and go to the land which will become his---so abraham goes and takes lot with him also----------they end up making a side trip to egypt because of a famine but return after it--------possibly a year later--------when they get back to the land G-D is to give abraham a fight errupts between abrahams herdsmen and lots herdsmen------so they seperate genesis 13:9-11.lot picks for his land all the valley of the Jordan and moves away to it while abraham verse 14 is told by Yahvah that all the land he sees(which is on the west banks of the jorden river is his and his descendants forever.---------to be continued after a break.

reply to post by yahn goodey


i see i made a mistake right off the bat----israel set up for the israelis and jordan for the palestinians--------sorry-i need more sleep

reply to post by blueorder


But it is not. That is my point. You seem to be making a very big point about how 'go abroad' means to go to another country, or another land or such, when the passage has no such significance. The only proof you could show me to the contrary was Yusuf Ali's own translation of the word (which started this whole thing in the first place), and a fellow referencing it. I could show you the Marmaduke, Shakir, Dr Mohsin, Dr Zidan translations into English. I could show you Urdu translations (what those 'violent Islamic Jihadists' would read) of a Mr. Ahmed Ali or Fateh. I could show you the original arabic. However, you insist on using the new meaning of an old word. This is hardly 'open to interpretation'.

If I was perverse enough, I could take 'you can see how one passage is open to interpretation, which is kinda my point', to mean "You can foretell how one pathway has been split asunder to allow oneirocritica, which is in a certain way, my weapon". Which I could then translate to mean that you discovered a new way to remove a person's inhibitions and mental blocks to allow you to understand their dreams, and use this against them. See how silly this gets?

If those evil 'violent islamic jihadists' wanted to get people to do their evil violent bidding, they'd get those naive, zealous, uneducated youth, and tell them that killing innocent people is the path to heaven, and those poor people, having no idea what is in the Quran, would know no better. Surprise, surprise, this is what they do, and it has nothing to do with the Quran.

[edit on 12-12-2007 by babloyi]

Convert or Die!

Allahu Akbar!

By my blood and my soul I will defend my Prophet!

Death to America! Death to Israel! Death to the Infidels!

On a more serious note, does anyone think Muhammad could be the "False Prophet" spoken of in the Revelation of John?

[edit on 12/12/2007 by runetang]

reply to post by runetang


i need more sleep----------but maybe you need some too?muhammad is dead so how could he be the false prophet of revelation 13--------------------forgive me for saying so but i think it will be a pope that is this last religious beast who along with the military dictator of europe----the resurrected "holy"roman empire is cast into the lake of fire by Messiah at His return----revelation19:20

Originally posted by babloyi[/i
But it is not. That is my point. You seem to be making a very big point about how 'go abroad' means to go to another country, or another land or such, when the passage has no such significance.

one passage with the English translation of "abroad", it has every significance, I mean, it is an odd passage if you take it with your meaning, "go outside and fight", where else where they going to fight, the bedroom!

The only proof you could show me to the contrary was Yusuf Ali's own translation of the word (which started this whole thing in the first place), and a fellow referencing it. I could show you the Marmaduke, Shakir, Dr Mohsin, Dr Zidan translations into English. I could show you Urdu translations (what those 'violent Islamic Jihadists' would read) of a Mr. Ahmed Ali or Fateh. I could show you the original arabic. However, you insist on using the new meaning of an old word. This is hardly 'open to interpretation'.

"new", in the sense that is the meaning of the word for the last seven hundred centuries, and as the Koran, in terms of English translation, is relatively recent, I do not buy into your assessment.

If I was perverse enough, I could take 'you can see how one passage is open to interpretation, which is kinda my point', to mean "You can foretell how one pathway has been split asunder to allow oneirocritica, which is in a certain way, my weapon". Which I could then translate to mean that you discovered a new way to remove a person's inhibitions and mental blocks to allow you to understand their dreams, and use this against them. See how silly this gets?

If you think the Koran is not open to interpretation for war AND peace, then good luck to you

If those evil 'violent islamic jihadists' wanted to get people to do their evil violent bidding, they'd get those naive, zealous, uneducated youth, and tell them that killing innocent people is the path to heaven, and those poor people, having no idea what is in the Quran, would know no better. Surprise, surprise, this is what they do, and it has nothing to do with the Quran.
[edit on 12-12-2007 by babloyi]

erm, sorry what, have a quick precis of recent jihadist bombings in britain- all well educated doctor's types, not the stereotypical "naive, unedcuated youth etc" you refer to.

I dare say Bin Laden had a ruddy good education too!