Muhammad - Prophet or Profiteer of God?

Reply to Ironclad

I believe in being a good person & try my best to be as decent a human being as possible, without joining a sect like islam or Christianity.

Well i respect that because thats how you believe it should be.

But i believe differently so i will see things according to what in believe matey!

I guess Christian will get into heaven of Christianity and get into hell of Islam
Islamite will get into heaven of Islam and get into hell of Christianity.
and we atheist will get into hell of every religion after death ,
am I right?

[edit on 9-12-2007 by gs001]

Originally posted by kangjia57
So why would you not pray behind Shias?They still class themselves as Muslims?
Would you pray behind a Deobandi or Mirzai imam?

I would not pray behind Shias because (as far as I know) they pray in a different way to other muslims. I never really had a chance to pray behind a Shia imam, so I don't really know. I have a few Shia friends, and they've prayed behind a Sunni imam, but I wasn't really paying attention to what they were doing. An imam is just a leader of prayer. It doesn't really matter what they believe in their heads. If you don't agree with them, don't listen to their Qutbah (sermon).

I used to go to a Deobandi mosque and pray behind the Deobandi imam. I preferred that mosque to a lot of others that I've been to. At least they didn't go about singing scratchy songs on loudspeakers throughout the whole night (if you are singing praise of God in such a bad way, you can hardly call it praise).

Originally posted by kangjia57
You cant reject the Sahabeen, Tabaieen, Taba-Tabayeen, saints/awliya,scholars as Islam has been passed down from them and taught by them.
Don’t tell me you learned all about Islam by yourself? From Arabic to fiqh teachings?

I learnt what I did of Islam from the Quran and Hadith, mostly. Originally I had one or two translations to help me along. When I read something about what a scholar was saying, if it matched up with what was in the Quran and Hadith, I followed it. If it didn't, I left it.

Reply to babloyi

At least they didn't go about singing scratchy songs on loudspeakers throughout the whole night (if you are singing praise of God in such a bad way, you can hardly call it praise).

Its called Naat sharif, Qasidah Burdah Sharif, nasheeds singing in praise of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him).

Deobandi ideology in their books:

It is wrong to believe that Prophets are innocent of sinning. (Tasfia-ul-Aqaid)

To think about the Prophet whilst one is in prayer is worse than being engrossed in the thoughts of adultery, or thinking about a donkey or an ox. (Siraate-Mustaqeem)

It is possible for Allah to tell lies (Yakrozi).

It is a heresy to deem Allah free from time and space (Idha-ul-Haq)

A person, who labels the Companions of the Holy Prophet (sallalahu alahi wasalam) as “infidels”, is not out of the fold of Jamaat Ahle Sunnah. (Fatawahe Rashidiah)

One who considers the Holy Prophet (sallalahu alahi wasalam) as his mediator and intercessor on the Day of Resurrection, is equal to Abu Jahal in polytheism. (Taqwiat-ul-Iman)

It is polytheism to say, “if Allah and His Prophet will a thing, it will be accomplished”. (Bahishti Zewar)

Theres more aswel but I just brought out the main ones matey!So what do you say to that?

I learnt what I did of Islam from the Quran and Hadith, mostly. Originally I had one or two translations to help me along. When I read something about what a scholar was saying, if it matched up with what was in the Quran and Hadith, I followed it. If it didn't, I left it.

If you or a Muslim wants to learn fiqh,memorise Quran,learn interpretations,learn the laws (sharia),learn Arabic with (tajweed) etc.. where would you go or advice him to go?Are you gona say to him learn it all yourself?Which sect and which institute would you tell him to go to or if you wanted to learn all this where would you go matey?

reply to post by kangjia57


Kangjia, I don't really care. I'm not a Deobandi. By going to a deobandi mosque, I am not agreeing to what they believe. Although I think you've got it a bit mixed up. Deobandis are Sunni muslims. They follow the fiqh of Abu Hanifah.

Why should a person need to learn of any of the 4 schools of fiqh? If you say that all the 4 schools of thought are okay, and they all have different fiqhs (which sometimes contradict each other), then the fiqh is irrelevant. If you want to follow it, there is nothing wrong, but if you decide to go according to the Quran and Hadith without these scholars, there is nothing wrong either. It is better to study everything.

If a person wants to learn arabic, recitation of the Quran, or meaning of the Quran, he can go to whichever institute he likes. Whatever school of thought you follow, the Quran is the same.


[edit on 9-12-2007 by babloyi]

My view:

We all better be learning the Quran, why, because Islam is rising while the west is asleep. If you convert, all is well. It you choose not to, you get to pay an infidel tax, but they will still get you in the end.

One teaching is that "when you fight an enemy, and you do not have the stregnth to overcome them, make a pretend peace with them. Eat their food and get your stregnth while among them, then when the time is right, overcome them."

There is never any way to know a friend from foe. This teaching is followed presently in Iraq, where the Islams that hate the USA hate Al Quida more and so have made peace for the momment to "use" the USA to rid them of their advasaries before turning the attack back on the "infidels". Since infidels are sub-human by nature, you can lie to them, rape their women, andkill them as you would a cow or a sheep. You can even buy and sell them like cattle.

As for Muhammad: They will become enraged and swords will be drawn if you so much as name a teddy bear after him in his honor. There will be no critisicim of Islam. Therefore it cannot change nor adapt but it remains as it was until every infidel has converted or is dead. There is no room for any other thought but submission.

I have studied the Quran, but I am not a moslem. What have I learned.

By their law:

1. As long as you do not say a word against Allah or Muhammad they cannot kill you.

2. They cannot compel you to convert.

3. They cannot kill those who do not harm them.

By their own Holy book, if they do, they are damned forever and their stoumachs will burn in hell eating briers by the rivers of fire.

Your best defense... is no defense.

Disclaimer: But they might kill you anyway because their is no such thing as sin, only obedience, so if you do a bad thing, just go back to what you were doing and you're ok.


Now, because I am not Islamic, can some muslims comment on this for me as I am still studying to know my way around when the USA is a muslim nation.

Reply to babloyi

Kangjia, I don't care! I'm not a Deobandi. By going to a deobandi mosque, I am not agreeing to what they believe. Although I think you've got it a bit mixed up. Deobandis are Sunni muslims. They follow the fiqh of Abu Hanifah.

Why should a person need to learn of any of the 4 schools of fiqh? If you say that all the 4 schools of thought are okay, and they all have different fiqhs (which sometimes contradict each other), then the fiqh is irrelevant. If you want to follow it, there is nothing wrong, but if you decide to go according to the Quran and Hadith without these scholars, there is nothing wrong either. It is better to study everything.

I think that you missed my point I stated earlier.

I believe that the followers of the Maliki, Shafi'i and Hanbali and Hanafi schools are all right. Other sects have been created not because they have different school of thoughts but different perspective of the way they look at Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) ,Quran and Allah himself.

And you cant say me stating the sects=I am making them because I didn’t make them!

The ones who made these sects are the ones who are breaking Allahs laws.
And I keep crying out about it because these sect creators have created their own ideology of Islam, they follow the Quran and hadith but they also have their different views of Islam according to their sects!

Do you agree with me in that or not?

reply to post by kangjia57


The fact that you did not 'make' the sect is irrelevant. You are promoting sectarianism by putting yourself as 'different' or separate from your brother muslims. You quote anti-deobandi propaganda from deobandi hate sites (I am not meaning to offend you, please don't take it like that, maybe you quoted those by mistake). Now I don't care for Deobandis any more than I care for any other school of thought, but I won't be insulting them either. Response to your accusations against Deobandis

You shouldn't keep crying out about it, because they are muslims same as you. Remember the verse I quoted from Surah Ar-Room (30:31-32)? Don't be thinking yourself superior because you are of one sect and they are of another.

Fromabove:
Where did you get the 'pretend peace' thing from?

Originally posted by blueorder
Could someone please tell me how many wars Bush has led and how many battles Muhammad led?

Then could someone tell me how people define a bringer of "peace" and a "warmonger"/"war criminal"

Can someone tell me how many women have been stoned to death by Bush, or how many people he has publicly beheaded. Can you tell me how many millions of women he has denied education to, or how many million women he has denied the privilege of driving a car, or whipped for being seen in public with a man who is not a member of her family.

Trying to compare the "evils" of one naiive US administration with the evils of an insane misogynist sect who thrive on male chauvinism and religious intolerance is stupid beyond the dreams of ignorance.

Islam of its own right is truly an evil presence in the World, bt if it was restricted to certain nations it would be tolerable. The problem is that the Qu'ran teaches that Jihad or holy war is the ultimate expression of devotion for Muslims, and that the word of Allah should be spread with the sword.

Watch the UK and learn from what happens there because those bliss ninnies are in for a very rude awakening over the next 10 years.

[edit on 9-12-2007 by Retseh]

Reply to babloyi

Fair enough, you follow what you like matey!

For me the hadiths I stated earlier are strong enough for me to believe

You said earlier;

The Prophet said that near the end, there will be very little light of Islam on the world. When the companions asked if this was because the Muslims will be few in number, he said that no, the Muslims will be very large in number, but only very few will be following true Islam.

Indeed when that time comes we will all know who had true intentions and who really followed Allah (subhanawataallah).

reply to post by kangjia57


No, we will know only on the Final Day. But you are right. Fair enough. Believe what you believe to be true to the Quran and Authentic Hadith. That is the best anyone can do.

reply to post by Fromabove


by their law they cannot kill you?-----------------since when did the law saying-----------thou shalt do no murder stop anyone from murdering infidels or innocent victims alike-----------------do you think all that were blown up by muslim suicide bombers were infidels ?----------------they not only murder infidels---------they murder their own and christians and jews and innocent tourists when they go on their jihads--------------do you think the bombings of the buses in londen were because the buses were filled with infidel jews?

I strongly believe Mohammad was nothing more than a false prophet and profiteer. Anyone should have a hard time swallowing any religion started by one man who claims that only they were given the truth of God.

Joseph Smith, Mohammad, Ron Hubbard, and others were individual men who claimed to have the whole revelation from God. The testimonies of such individuals are so screwy, I can't imagine how anyone would believe it. When God gives revelations to men, He accompanies them with some sort of sign or fulfilled prophecy in order to confirm their testimony. What happened with the man above? Nothing. What prophecies were fulfilled correctly? None.

On the other hand, Christianity and Judaism have multiple prophets and eye witnesses who collaborate the same revelation. Prophecies are being fulfilled all around us as confirmation. Not so with Mohammad. I truly believe the man was both deceived and a deceiver. What were his motives? I do not know. But clearly he was a false prophet.

reply to post by yahn goodey



That's why I put the disclaimer in. They can kill all the day long, even their own, but all they have to do is go back to "submitting" and do as before and obey, and all is well again and they are accepted.

I've skimmed this thread, and quite amazed by the response.
I'm new here and happened to be a moslem as well, (not that bright and right moslem)
But here's my opinion:

Yes, I do believe in Islam. As much as Jew and Christian as religion descended from God to mankind, as those three religions were originated from the most savage place of the earth. Where tribal dispute and race eradication still take place. (my apology, but to this day according to my observation, the middle east has been the most rough and tough plains of the earth, causing a tough and harsh culture to the people living there.) Having said that I do believe that those three religions are for real, and I chose Islam.

Islam, to my opinion is the most selfish religion for what you do in life for good or bad it's accounted to you alone. No one will bare your sins no one will be advantaged for your "pahala". It's very much personal rather than mass, by means of faith, conduct, etc. It's between you and God and no one else in between. So if any moslem do drinks alcohol, it's his business with his God, it's his decision.

One hadith I remember when Muhammad saw an infidel came out from a brothel house and went into a gambling house, he said that the guy belong to heaven. Yes, his friends asked why such an infidel that conduct adultery and gamble belong to heaven. One of the friends followed the person in question, and during this guy routine of adultery, gambling and drinking, he constantly feed the poor, take care the orphan, all the good deeds. The prophet then reveal that the infidel earn heaven because he didn't know the way of Islam yet still do good deeds. In the end, the infidel embrace Islam. My point? Regardless of what religion you are, be good, and heaven is yours. Like I said what you do is between you and your God, who am I to judge?

In the verse of Qur'an also stated your religion is yours as mine is mine (Forgot the surrah and verse). Allah love diversity, then so be it. So there's Islam, there's Jew, there's Christianity, there's Buddhist, and so on. So what? God doesn't need you, you need God.

This diversity also backed up by the verse in the Qur'an that God created human in many groups, many believes, and don't you mock one another for the other will mock you more. And there will be a race to do good deed. (again, forgot the surrah and verse, but it's there, in between Al Baqarah to Al Maidah I think) Wouldn't it be nice if we all race to do good rather than slaughter people just because their color of skin or believes.

As for taking Islamic law into the state law system, I never been a supporter of this. Take that stealing thing being discussed here. Why not discuss praying time? So If I don't practice praying time? Will the state arrest me? Will we succumbed to what Christian has been doing so wrongly many centuries ago? Will we be returning to the believe that earth is the center of the universe circled by the moon and the sun? Are we to believe that earth is flat again? Are we going to depend on one Imam rule to do our faith? Are we going to let the state to tell how you do your religion? What will Islam become but another pope in the Vatican? Islam is the most individual religion, even though there's society, marriage, trade conduct etc in the Qur'an, but to whom it was address? To you moslem reading it and to mankind (Ya ayu hannas-pardon my arabic) I'd say let's state be the state and its law and Islam with its way of life. If the law goes against our will don't do it, if Ijtihad has the solution, why not? Adapting some of Islamic law, perhaps. Letting state rule my religion. I thought we've learned very much from Martin Luther?

A good moslem doesn't give trouble to other people, they should've helped other people, in my opinion. So if you guys non moslem out there has been troubled by one moslem, hey it's probably just him/her. It's personal. Don't take it on the other moslem.

reply to post by kangjia57



So what does this mean? Will it be another holocust? Atomic war? So is this the peace we all will know some day, submit or die?

Reply to fromabove

Dont know matey! I guess time will tell us what is gona happen.

thats my 500 points banged up!!

18 pages started making my head hurt!

I can tell you this...........I been to the middle east, had long conversations with Muslims and they are not wicked people. I was told not to discuss religion but they always wanted to bring it up and show the problems the bible has verses the Quran. I chose to listen and was amazed by how strong they believe in it.

Now, case in point. If you were born to live and breath a gospel wouldnt you? Pray 5 times a day and REALLY believe there is a power greater than you who can help or crush you would you?

Christians, Baptists, catholics, Mormons all believe it but each have different ways of dealing with it. Some and most are forgiven in our minds if such ritual is performed after the sin is committed. A Muslim also has a similiar reprieve.

My travels seen people who were beheaded. No hands cut off but murderd. Most was in a country I dont wanna say but Muslim in all respect. There was a mass prayer for there souls to hope they will go to heaven and mercy be upon them but in the end after prayer a mad rush to witness the execution took place. Why would you rush to see this death? People climb trees and stood on each other like it was a Madonna Concert! Never before have I witnessed such a thing I stayed. There was no drama. An ambulance appeared in the square and brought out 3 people. Blindfolded and hands tied they were brought to the center. No chants, no talking the masked man one by one chopped off there heads. Afterwards they were hung as on gallows for all to see each guarded heavily by soldiers until after dark.

I have nothing against Muslims at all but a couple questions if I may:

1. Can you give up the death of Jesus thing against the Jews?

2. Can we achieve peace living with each other despite our religions backgrounds?

3. Do we all have to be Muslim before the hatred stops?

I know why the violence in the middle east happens I got that part. When can we unite and why does it have to be world domination?