Are “chemical imbalances” an excuse for mind control?

okay, i'll bite.

i had read through the vicious responses to my "indulgent condition" comment, and decided that i was not going to respond....maybe i could just sneak out the back-door.

for reasons of humility, i choose not to disclose the exact nature of my own "condition". but i do find it intensely insulting that you think that whatever is the worst that you have been through, i have not also been through. after all, experience is subjective, no?

essentially, the words that i chose to define the depressed condition such as "indulgent", i place upon myself. and i do not find them in the least bit demeaning to my-self. in every way, i believe that the very highest mark of intelligence in our current society is of a person whom senses deep down to their core that the world as we know it is backward. it is this backwardness which is the root-cause of chronic depression. it is the totally unsolvable problem.

it is not necessary for a person to consciously acknowledge this sense of backwardness. indeed, for most chronic depressives it is a personal mystery. can you, forestlady, or anyone else interested, identify the cause of this widespread social disease? if not, then why should you not consider the words that i have said?

those that seek the simple escape are cowards. it was never meant to be easy. death is the most terrifying thing of all.

Originally posted by forestlady
...In order for mind control to take place, someone needs to be in control of your mind - so in these cases, who would that be? There's no one giving instructions to depressed people on meds....

wrong!

there is a very simple message which is conveyed by the presentation of the pill. it is this:

"we know what is wrong with you." "we know how to fix it."

and by the acceptance of this agreement, and the swallowing of the medication, you are entering into a subliminal, hypnotic, contract. you thus forfeit self-determination. and that is the entire point of mind control. who gives a crap about the actual psychoactive principle of the drug....they got you at the swallowing.

i have no problem with those that are seeking a natural cure to their condition. those that are making intelligent decisions for and by themselves....

...but never, NEVER, let THEM tell you what is good for YOU!

reply to post by shoran


People do various things for depression, and corrupt income and policies are in various places. I‘ll stop making comparisons, it‘s distracting. I’m trying to explore the possibility that sometimes people completely right off the power of their own logic in the name of the accepted truths they’ve been told about why things happen and that pharmaceuticals can be an area that takes people at their weakest to get them to accept some of those truths.

Sometimes the results are good, sometimes they can be bad. I would imagine that for everyone here, the results are either good or they don’t take them. Otherwise you wouldn’t care about all these speculative ideas because your brain wouldn’t be taking them the right way. If you were acting in a manner that helps the beneficiaries of the drug companies than you wouldn’t care about ideas that go against the mold like the ones on ATS or you would be here for entertainment purposes only. I’m not talking about active truth(personal, social, and physical) seekers, which if you have an ATS account you more than likely are. I’m talking about the mass amounts of people that take these drugs so they function along with the things they disagree with or don't understand and stop being depressed because of them.

The people that it affects badly will essentially be functional system slaves until they stop taking them and figure out what’s wrong and most of them just don’t care because now they are “functional”. You have to acknowledge that there are many people who just take the pills and will keep just taking the pills. We don’t normally support that behavior, it‘s allowed to exist but not openly supported by doctors and politicians. I’m also exploring the possibility that the beneficiaries of the drug companies( the corrupt profiteers and politicians among them) are doing everything they can to subtly keep it this way when there are better solutions and are winning right now.

Originally posted by tgidkp
there is a very simple message which is conveyed by the presentation of the pill. it is this:

"we know what is wrong with you." "we know how to fix it."

and by the acceptance of this agreement, and the swallowing of the medication, you are entering into a subliminal, hypnotic, contract. you thus forfeit self-determination. and that is the entire point of mind control. who gives a crap about the actual psychoactive principle of the drug....they got you at the swallowing.

i have no problem with those that are seeking a natural cure to their condition. those that are making intelligent decisions for and by themselves....

...but never, NEVER, let THEM tell you what is good for YOU!

This has to be one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. I don't know as much about the human body as a doctor does, though I do know a good bit about my own body. I do research on things that I take, I do research on conditions with which I've been diagnosed, and I do my best to educate myself about such things. Most of the people I know do the same thing, because they want to understand themselves, not blindly trust somebody else to know what's best for them.

By your logic, anything that's done for you by someone else is "mind control", because you "forfeit self-determination". Do you grow all your own food? Make all your own clothes? Hell, you're using this website, and it's not *your* website. At which point do you believe this forfeiture of self-determination is no longer relevant?

You know, sometimes things are simply what they are. If I cut my arm, I treat it. I don't sit around and ponder all the reasons in the universe that might result in the pain I'm feeling. I fix the cut and move on with my life. Mental issues aren't any different, though they may sometimes be a little more complicated.

So, the moral of the story? Don't take medication you don't need, and don't take medication that you don't want to take. Nobody is forcing you to do anything you don't want to do. If you blindly take medicine a doctor prescribes for you and never question or research the diagnoses or medications, you have a much bigger problem that medicine so far can't fix. Likewise if you see conspiracies everywhere. There's a word for that: paranoia. It's treatable too.

Originally posted by captainplanet
People do various things for depression, and corrupt income and policies are in various places. I‘ll stop making comparisons, it‘s distracting. I’m trying to explore the possibility that sometimes people completely right off the power of their own logic in the name of the accepted truths they’ve been told about why things happen and that pharmaceuticals can be an area that takes people at their weakest to get them to accept some of those truths.

You could argue that all people are gullible at some point in their life. This site is full of threads that prove that statement.

Originally posted by captainplanet
Sometimes the results are good, sometimes they can be bad. I would imagine that for everyone here, the results are either good or they don’t take them. Otherwise you wouldn’t care about all these speculative ideas because your brain wouldn’t be taking them the right way. If you were acting in a manner that helps the beneficiaries of the drug companies than you wouldn’t care about ideas that go against the mold like the ones on ATS or you would be here for entertainment purposes only. I’m not talking about active truth(personal, social, and physical) seekers, which if you have an ATS account you more than likely are. I’m talking about the mass amounts of people that take these drugs so they function along with the things they disagree with or don't understand and stop being depressed because of them.

Perhaps first, you should learn about how the various medications work, how they impact people who take them, and what they are and are not capable of doing. People don't take these medications so they'll do things they disagree with, they take them so they can function in the world without being so depressed as to be miserable and utterly ineffective. A large number of people who are depressed and never receive treatment (in the form of depression and/or psychotherapy) kill themselves. But, anti-depressants don't put thoughts into your head, control your mind, or do anything other than let you be yourself again.

Originally posted by captainplanet
The people that it affects badly will essentially be functional system slaves until they stop taking them and figure out what’s wrong and most of them just don’t care because now they are “functional”. You have to acknowledge that there are many people who just take the pills and will keep just taking the pills. We don’t normally support that behavior, it‘s allowed to exist but not openly supported by doctors and politicians. I’m also exploring the possibility that the beneficiaries of the drug companies( the corrupt profiteers and politicians among them) are doing everything they can to subtly keep it this way when there are better solutions and are winning right now.

No, the people that are affected badly stop taking them because they feel worse on the medications than they did without them. People who take pills, regardless of what they are, regardless of how they make them feel, and couldn't care less what they're doing are called idiots. They exist just about everywhere, and don't need modern pharmaceuticals to hurt themselves.

While I like this site for a lot of the topics that are discussed here, this isn't one of them. There are plenty of things to worry about and question in society and civilization without making stuff up just to have an ill-informed debate.

reply to post by shoran

You could argue that all people are gullible at some point in their life. This site is full of threads that prove that statement.

I think we should be a little more critical of a billion dollar industry with strong political ties than we would a online conspiracy community.

Perhaps first, you should learn about how the various medications work, how they impact people who take them, and what they are and are not capable of doing. People don't take these medications so they'll do things they disagree with, they take them so they can function in the world without being so depressed as to be miserable and utterly ineffective. A large number of people who are depressed and never receive treatment (in the form of depression and/or psychotherapy) kill themselves. But, anti-depressants don't put thoughts into your head, control your mind, or do anything other than let you be yourself again.

Perhaps you shouldn’t assume I know nothing of depression. I have proven to myself you can overcome it and create ups and downs where only downs used to remain. I have been surrounded by depressed people my whole life and they all have problems they ignore, can’t pinpoint, or can‘t cope with. So yes, I stand by that chemical imbalances are a result of the depression, not the other way around. Depression is a result of a problem, obvious and immediate or not.

No, the people that are affected badly stop taking them because they feel worse on the medications than they did without them. People who take pills, regardless of what they are, regardless of how they make them feel, and couldn't care less what they're doing are called idiots. They exist just about everywhere, and don't need modern pharmaceuticals to hurt themselves.

I truly mean no offense to anyone here, but in my experiences people are much more prone to idiocy on medication than they are without.

While I like this site for a lot of the topics that are discussed here, this isn't one of them. There are plenty of things to worry about and question in society and civilization without making stuff up just to have an ill-informed debate.

Then maybe you should leave it alone and leave it to people with more experience with the down sides of it. You sound like someone using them cautiously to fix yourself and you have never known or heard of the great amounts of people who think their only problem is a chemical imbalance. I don’t make things up for debate, I put them out there for debate. Just because I don’t have a PHD or take medication doesn’t make me completely ignorant on the subject. I went through years of hell to figure out how to fix myself and I’ve helped people on medication or drugs realize the same fix.

If you can prove to me chemical imbalances are not a product of depression and that you can‘t cure it otherwise, I will move on from this topic. There have been posts regarding legitimate health issues as well. If you present no scientific proof then you can’t complain about a logic and experience based argument.

Once again, my problem is not it’s existence, it is the mismanagement. The fact that it leads to us being unnaturally satisfied with our world instead of allowing it to grow with us. It wont induce thoughts, just behavior through your satisfaction.

[edit on 23-11-2007 by captainplanet]

[edit on 23-11-2007 by captainplanet]

reply to post by shoran


I value your input and didn’t mean to tell you to go away but I don’t feel like you are really listening, just trying to call foul. Maybe you think I’m here to deceive, but that is not the case. It is bigger than one individual’s problem when you get people to stop addressing issues. Dissatisfaction is on the rise and I see this as being one potential source, if not now than in the future. We are ignoring the task of making our people satisfied by helping them to not figure out why they are dissatisfied. It is up to people to shape the government and I think it is a conflict of public interest to promote the use of this drug so leisurely because it helps many people ignore the things they know, or feel if they haven’t figured it out, to be fundamentally flawed. We don’t tolerate it so easily or promote it with anything else. From experience, I think it is ignorant to just allow ourselves to believe this is the “good” drug when we know nothing works like that.

Originally posted by captainplanet
I think we should be a little more critical of a billion dollar industry with strong political ties than we would a online conspiracy community.

By what, trying to find out what the ulterior motive is? They want to make money, and they do it by treating medical conditions through biology and chemistry. That's not a difficult answer. If you want to believe that the entire medical industry is conspiring to take over people's minds, they probably have some medication to help with that.

Perhaps you shouldn’t assume I know nothing of depression. I have proven to myself you can overcome it and create ups and downs where only downs used to remain. I have been surrounded by depressed people my whole life and they all have problems they ignore, can’t pinpoint, or can‘t cope with. So yes, I stand by that chemical imbalances are a result of the depression, not the other way around. Depression is a result of a problem, obvious and immediate or not.

I never said that depression wasn't the result of a problem. But, what that problem is varies in each situation. You've proven to yourself that *you* can overcome it without medication. If that's the case, I'd say you probably don't need anti-depressants. But, you aren't everyone else. I know people who've struggled with depression both on and off medication, with mixed results. What does that prove? That people are different.

I truly mean no offense to anyone here, but in my experiences people are much more prone to idiocy on medication than they are without.

My experiences suggest otherwise. Idiots are idiots, and don't need medication to make them that way. That's not to say that different medication to treat mental disorders, including anti-depressants, anti-anxiety drugs, anti-psychotics, etc., can't alter one's mood or personality. But just about everything, natural or otherwise, can have unintended side-effects.

Then maybe you should leave it alone and leave it to people with more experience with the down sides of it. You sound like someone using them cautiously to fix yourself and you have never known or heard of the great amounts of people who think their only problem is a chemical imbalance. I don’t make things up for debate, I put them out there for debate. Just because I don’t have a PHD or take medication doesn’t make me completely ignorant on the subject. I went through years of hell to figure out how to fix myself and I’ve helped people on medication or drugs realize the same fix.

Congratulations. I've never told people that they should take anti-depressants. I've said that anti-depressants aren't evil and aren't mind control, but they are drugs best taken with the guidance of properly trained personnel. Take from that what you will.

If you can prove to me chemical imbalances are not a product of depression and that you can‘t cure it otherwise, I will move on from this topic. There have been posts regarding legitimate health issues as well. If you present no scientific proof then you can’t complain about a logic and experience based argument.

In most cases, fixing the imbalances fixes the depression. I'd say depression is a result of the imbalances. What causes the imbalances in the first place? The potential list is pretty long.

Once again, my problem is not it’s existence, it is the mismanagement. The fact that it leads to us being unnaturally satisfied with our world instead of allowing it to grow with us. It wont induce thoughts, just behavior through your satisfaction.

The mismanagement of prescription medications is one problem. But, that mismanagement does not make all prescription drugs worthless/suspect by default, especially when a great many people benefit from them. Besides, you're using a computer to communicate. What's natural about that?

There has never been any documented scientific evidence of the chemical imbalance in a depressed person. This idea came about as a marketing tool after the drugs came out.
However, it is a known fact (and admitted by the drug companies in their literature) that taking antidepressants WILL create changes in the brain's receptors, causing them to down-regulate. This is the reason these drugs are so hard to get off of. There is a severe withdrawal syndrome unless you taper very slowly over a long period.

Originally posted by WEOPPOSEDECEPTION
There has never been any documented scientific evidence of the chemical imbalance in a depressed person. This idea came about as a marketing tool after the drugs came out.
However, it is a known fact (and admitted by the drug companies in their literature) that taking antidepressants WILL create changes in the brain's receptors, causing them to down-regulate. This is the reason these drugs are so hard to get off of. There is a severe withdrawal syndrome unless you taper very slowly over a long period.

It's called the Monoamine Hypothesis, and while a contested scientific theory, it's still a legitimate theory. From what I've been able to gather, no other scientific theories have been suitable to explain the disorders, so, the Monoamine Hypothesis remains the primary one.

Beyond that, yes, you have to slowly taper off anti-depressant medication. You also have to do the same for a number of other medications that alter the usual operation of your body's systems. Heck, even caffeine has a withdrawal phase due to our brains creating far too many adenosine receptors due to the effects of caffeine. When you come off it, you're overly sensitive to the presence of adenosine until your brain can adjust to not requiring such a high level of receptors.

reply to post by shoran

By what, trying to find out what the ulterior motive is? They want to make money, and they do it by treating medical conditions through biology and chemistry. That's not a difficult answer. If you want to believe that the entire medical industry is conspiring to take over people's minds, they probably have some medication to help with that.

That’s the danger with an influx of conspiracy theories. It makes people accepting of the real corruption. Don’t start putting words in my mouth. I never said the entire medical industry was conspiring to control us. I specifically said it was the profiteers and corrupt politicians among them, if you think that insinuates some overly vague “they” conspiracy, maybe you need to re-evaluate your world. I’m not proposing a manhunt, I’m proposing a re-evaluation of the problem. We don’t ever need to point a finger at one of them, just solve the real problems and they would have to make money off something other than depression.

I never said that depression wasn't the result of a problem. But, what that problem is varies in each situation. You've proven to yourself that *you* can overcome it without medication. If that's the case, I'd say you probably don't need anti-depressants. But, you aren't everyone else. I know people who've struggled with depression both on and off medication, with mixed results. What does that prove? That people are different.

We agree then. But it’s dangerous and unproductive in the grand scheme of things for us to not find the real problem. I think a lot more people would be looking for the real situations that are causing so much depression are if we weren’t all just medicated. If there was a real effort to make sure no one had to take them for extended lengths of time, I would be less suspicious. Handle it kind of like pain medication, doctors are much more weary of handing out those long term. You need a doctor to get anti-depressants but right now it is very acceptable for people to just stay on them.

Congratulations. I've never told people that they should take anti-depressants. I've said that anti-depressants aren't evil and aren't mind control, but they are drugs best taken with the guidance of properly trained personnel. Take from that what you will.

But you are not in charge, it doesn’t happen that way. People literally believe they are fighting a chemical imbalance, not their mind or problems. By the way, I not telling people not to ever take them, I’m trying to point out where it makes them behave unnaturally and why that is bad on a large accepted scale.

In most cases, fixing the imbalances fixes the depression. I'd say depression is a result of the imbalances. What causes the imbalances in the first place? The potential list is pretty long.

If they would make that potential list and start scratching things off it, people wouldn’t be chemically imbalanced and need medication. That isn’t that hard to figure out and I doubt they haven’t. That would be the fall of a billion dollar industry that does a lot of government lobbying. I don’t think it’s that far fetched to think some of the people involved would use that lobbying to try and prevent it from happening. Some people with political and/or monetary power do benefit greatly from depression and by giving it an artificial and acceptingly misused solution, they could keep benefiting indefinitely when there are more effective solutions that they might not want implemented.

The mismanagement of prescription medications is one problem. But, that mismanagement does not make all prescription drugs worthless/suspect by default, especially when a great many people benefit from them. Besides, you're using a computer to communicate. What's natural about that?

I never said it did, and your comparison is makes no sense.

You seem to make many assumptions about my beliefs, if I have a relevant one, I will share it.

reply to post by captainplanet

I’m not proposing a manhunt, I’m proposing a re-evaluation of the problem. We don’t ever need to point a finger at one of them, just solve the real problems and they would have to make money off something other than depression.

Depression is an actual condition that can, to a point, be treated medically. In some cases, the only treatment is medical in nature. Since a large number of generic anti-depressants are available for very, very low cost, I don't really see this as any sort of problem beyond it being unfortunate that there are people who need the medication.

We agree then. But it’s dangerous and unproductive in the grand scheme of things for us to not find the real problem. I think a lot more people would be looking for the real situations that are causing so much depression are if we weren’t all just medicated. If there was a real effort to make sure no one had to take them for extended lengths of time, I would be less suspicious. Handle it kind of like pain medication, doctors are much more weary of handing out those long term. You need a doctor to get anti-depressants but right now it is very acceptable for people to just stay on them.

It depends on the person and their situation. In just about every post here, I've advocated medication in addition to psychotherapy. I don't think anti-depressants will always treat the entire problem, and I know that I don't want to stay on medication forever. But, I find them a very beneficial, necessary part along the way. Doctors don't want to hand out pain medication because it's highly addictive and easily abused. I'm not aware of people who would abuse anti-depressants, since they don't provide any sort of high.

But you are not in charge, it doesn’t happen that way. People literally believe they are fighting a chemical imbalance, not their mind or problems. By the way, I not telling people not to ever take them, I’m trying to point out where it makes them behave unnaturally and why that is bad on a large accepted scale.

You've been suggesting that anti-depressants are "mind control", and that it's bad for people to take them. I respectfully disagree, and have absolutely no problem with anti-depressants. We have doctors and mental health professionals to help us with such things. I have a good rapport with my doctors, because I talk to them and am active in my well-being. If other people don't do that, that's their loss, and is a separate problem.

If they would make that potential list and start scratching things off it, people wouldn’t be chemically imbalanced and need medication. That isn’t that hard to figure out and I doubt they haven’t. That would be the fall of a billion dollar industry that does a lot of government lobbying. I don’t think it’s that far fetched to think some of the people involved would use that lobbying to try and prevent it from happening. Some people with political and/or monetary power do benefit greatly from depression and by giving it an artificial and acceptingly misused solution, they could keep benefiting indefinitely when there are more effective solutions that they might not want implemented.

A list of what? Reasons that they might be depressed? If that's all you think it takes to beat depression, I'd say you're sorely mistaken.

I never said it did, and your comparison is makes no sense.

You seem to make many assumptions about my beliefs, if I have a relevant one, I will share it.

You keep advocating "natural" things, and seem to condemn anti-depressants and other pharmaceuticals for not being "natural", but you use things that aren't natural to make those statements. That's what the point about the computer was meant to illustrate.

I only base my assumptions off what you've stated.

reply to post by shoran

Depression is an actual condition that can, to a point, be treated medically. In some cases, the only treatment is medical in nature. Since a large number of generic anti-depressants are available for very, very low cost, I don't really see this as any sort of problem beyond it being unfortunate that there are people who need the medication.

But depressed people wouldn’t be the only targets, there are many mental illnesses who’s definitions are questionable. Social reform would by nature resolve social disorders.

It depends on the person and their situation. In just about every post here, I've advocated medication in addition to psychotherapy. I don't think anti-depressants will always treat the entire problem, and I know that I don't want to stay on medication forever. But, I find them a very beneficial, necessary part along the way. Doctors don't want to hand out pain medication because it's highly addictive and easily abused. I'm not aware of people who would abuse anti-depressants, since they don't provide any sort of high.

Not necessarily in the case of you, but in the case of many they supply enough comfort to let them forget about things that they might not otherwise easily just let go. They can also make you more adamant in certain situations. Not because of a high. It is all based on your state of mind and they change that for you, without changing your situation or teaching you to do it within your mind.

You've been suggesting that anti-depressants are "mind control", and that it's bad for people to take them. I respectfully disagree, and have absolutely no problem with anti-depressants. We have doctors and mental health professionals to help us with such things. I have a good rapport with my doctors, because I talk to them and am active in my well-being. If other people don't do that, that's their loss, and is a separate problem.

It is a separate problem from your situation. You are actively seeking alternative, long term solution. That is often not even encouraged and that is what is dangerous. By knowing you don’t want to stay on the pills, you are actively changing your situation and in affect the world.

A list of what? Reasons that they might be depressed? If that's all you think it takes to beat depression, I'd say you're sorely mistaken.

A metaphoric list on the causes of depression within society.


By being un natural, this particular thing creates what was referred to as a “false reality” that really is reality, not in your mind. If that made sense.

[edit]

When everything is based on polls, you simply need people to believe they are satisfied.

[edit on 24-11-2007 by captainplanet]

Originally posted by captainplanet
But depressed people wouldn’t be the only targets, there are many mental illnesses who’s definitions are questionable. Social reform would by nature resolve social disorders.

I think some mental disorders are exacerbated by problems in society, but I don't think it's as simple as that. However, fixing a lot of societies problems would do well to fix society's problems.

Not necessarily in the case of you, but in the case of many they supply enough comfort to let them forget about things that they might not otherwise easily just let go. They can also make you more adamant in certain situations. Not because of a high. It is all based on your state of mind and they change that for you, without changing your situation or teaching you to do it within your mind.

I think if those types of things work for you, you don't have the type of depression that requires anti-depressants as part of the treatment. But, that's my opinion.

It is a separate problem from your situation. You are actively seeking alternative, long term solution. That is often not even encouraged and that is what is dangerous. By knowing you don’t want to stay on the pills, you are actively changing your situation and in affect the world.

Umm... okay.

A metaphoric list on the causes of depression within society.

By being un natural, this particular thing creates what was referred to as a “false reality” that really is reality, not in your mind. If that made sense.

I think anyone saying that anti-depressants create a "false reality" is somebody who doesn't understand anti-depressants or reality. With that type of logic, *anything* can cause a "false reality", in your mind or in the "real world".

I still think that you look at anti-depressants as something wrong/bad, and that's where we'll continue to disagree. Would I be happy if people didn't require such medications? Of course. I'd also be happy if people didn't require antibiotics, chemotherapy, etc. But, I understand that while all these medications have side effects and risks, it's part of our current available treatments.

If somebody wants to forgo anti-depressants and go with some alternate treatment, I think they have every right to pursue the course of action they feel is best for them. Likewise, if anti-depressants seem to be the best course of action, I think they have every right to those as well. Either way, I don't think either one amounts to any sort of "mind control".

reply to post by shoran

I think some mental disorders are exacerbated by problems in society, but I don't think it's as simple as that. However, fixing a lot of societies problems would do well to fix society's problems.

They are not that separate, it is unfortunately not so simple as that either. If you are not born with a chemical imbalance then you must ask where it comes from. Societal problems aren’t as simple as how we act toward one another. We are feed, physically and mentally, by a number of things people question.

I think if those types of things work for you, you don't have the type of depression that requires anti-depressants as part of the treatment. But, that's my opinion.

No, I don’t. You are not born with one and it can be cured a number of different ways. I am more functional than I was when I was consistently dissatisfied.

I think anyone saying that anti-depressants create a "false reality" is somebody who doesn't understand anti-depressants or reality. With that type of logic, *anything* can cause a "false reality", in your mind or in the "real world".

Yes, any number of things in the right combination could. The title asks if they are an excuse for mind control, not a lone proponent. Maybe the idea that mind control comes in the Hollywood form is a proponent of mind control, intentional or not.

When everything is based on polls, you simply need people to believe they are satisfied.

I still think that you look at anti-depressants as something wrong/bad, and that's where we'll continue to disagree. Would I be happy if people didn't require such medications? Of course. I'd also be happy if people didn't require antibiotics, chemotherapy, etc. But, I understand that while all these medications have side effects and risks, it's part of our current available treatments.

If somebody wants to forgo anti-depressants and go with some alternate treatment, I think they have every right to pursue the course of action they feel is best for them. Likewise, if anti-depressants seem to be the best course of action, I think they have every right to those as well. Either way, I don't think either one amounts to any sort of "mind control".

I think the way they are misportrayed as to be the best solution is the mind control. You know the chemical imbalance can be cured through other means. The FAA makes it illegal to compete realistically with alternative medical measures. The theory you sited is supported and reinforced by the government(through the FAA) which is composed of people who lobby money from pharmaceutical companies. It is all in a conflict of interests. Pharmaceutical companies have a lot of money to lobby because of the FAA’s policies.

[edit]
I reposted my last edit under the anticipated response.

[edit on 24-11-2007 by captainplanet]

Originally posted by captainplanet
They are not that separate, it is unfortunately not so simple as that either. If you are not born with a chemical imbalance then you must ask where it comes from. Societal problems aren’t as simple as how we act toward one another. We are feed, physically and mentally, by a number of things people question.

At the moment, there's no definitive, scientific cause for the chemical imbalances that are generally understood to cause the symptoms of depression. It doesn't mean there's no explanation, but that different things seem to take a part in bringing about depression. That's why the best therapy usually combines medication (when needed) with psychotherapy.

No, I don’t. You are not born with one and it can be cured a number of different ways. I am more functional than I was when I was consistently dissatisfied.

As I stated earlier, this doesn't prove anything except that what you had wasn't something that required medication to treat.

Yes, any number of things in the right combination could. The title asks if they are an excuse for mind control, not a lone proponent. Maybe the idea that mind control comes in the Hollywood form is a proponent of mind control, intentional or not.

When everything is based on polls, you simply need people to believe they are satisfied.

Your initial post includes a lot of incorrect assumptions and conclusions regarding the condition known as "depression", as well as the treatment of said condition. Furthermore, if everything is a form of "mind control", then ... I don't even know what you're asking anymore.

I think the way they are misportrayed as to be the best solution is the mind control. You know the chemical imbalance can be cured through other means. The FAA makes it illegal to compete realistically with alternative medical measures. The theory you sited is supported and reinforced by the government(through the FAA) which is composed of people who lobby money from pharmaceutical companies. It is all in a conflict of interests. Pharmaceutical companies have a lot of money to lobby because of the FAA’s policies.

I'm assuming you mean the FDA? Unless the Federal Aviation Administration has a previously unknown psychiatric division. A general practitioner might prescribe anti-depressants as the first form of treatment, which they're able to do as medical doctors, but they often don't have the knowledge regarding mental health and psychiatry to adequately treat and diagnose such conditions the best way possible.

The FDA doesn't prevent the sale or marketing of any alternative product. However, those products cannot claim to treat or cure a medical condition without the FDA evaluating them. Since the person/company requesting the evaluation has to pay for the tests, and there's not much money to be made in something natural, those tests rarely get performed. The FDA doesn't test things at random just because it feels like it, it only tests things brought to its attention by people wishing to bring them to market.

Is the FDA perfect? Of course not. But if you've heard that St. John's Wort can cure your depression, or that meditation and acupuncture are the best course of action to relieve your anxiety, the FDA isn't going to stop you from self-medicating all you want. However, I'd advise against it unless you know what you're doing.

reply to post by shoran

At the moment, there's no definitive, scientific cause for the chemical imbalances that are generally understood to cause the symptoms of depression.

General understandings of that nature shouldn’t be considered pure fact. The advice of doctors reflects that it is. That many people shouldn’t have to go to the doctor in the first place for depression because people should be adapting the world to themselves like they do when they naturally cure depression. The artificial complacency stops the necessary sparks from igniting.

[edit]
I want to call it population control instead now, but that refers to population reduction. I'm not talking about hollywood mind control. Do you get my point at all?

[edit on 24-11-2007 by captainplanet]

Originally posted by captainplanet
General understandings of that nature shouldn’t be considered pure fact. The advice of doctors reflects that it is. That many people shouldn’t have to go to the doctor in the first place for depression because people should be adapting the world to themselves like they do when they naturally cure depression. The artificial complacency stops the necessary sparks from igniting.

It's the generally accepted cause of depression, but not the cause of the "chemical imbalances". The chemical imbalances could be caused by genetics, environmental factors, stress, other medications, etc.

While there seem to be scientists that disagree with the Monoamine Hypothesis, there's been no other scientific explanation that adequately explains the causes of depression. Therefore, the Monoamine Hypothesis persists and is generally accepted as fact. This is much the same as things like evolution which, while not perfect theories, explain things better than any other available scientific theory. When new, testable evidence presents itself that contradicts the Monoamine Hypothesis, changes will be made, ideas will be revised, and the scientific method will leave us with something hopefully better in its place.

But, to continue your line of reasoning, should you go to the doctor when you're sick? It's possibly that you could simply boost your immune system with vitamins and such to fight off an infection, isn't it? What about other natural remedies? Should we ever need to rely on the pharmaceutical industry and medical professionals to care for our health, or do you consider all of it "population control"?

When all is said and done, nobody is "forced" to go anywhere. You choose to go to the doctor or other mental health professional to treat your condition. If you feel alternatives should be available to the people who want them, I wholeheartedly agree. I don't think anyone should be forced to do anything against their will, but I don't see this happening in any way, shape, form or fashion.

I want to call it population control instead now, but that refers to population reduction. I'm not talking about hollywood mind control. Do you get my point at all?

Considering people have less sex and likely produce fewer offspring when they're depressed, I don't really see how anti-depressants can result in population reduction.

reply to post by shoran


Once again I don’t view all medicine like I do the mind altering ones. Chemical imbalances are in your brain so they are mind altering. I don’t mean to place the inaction(past and present) that’s resulted in the current state of depression squarely on the shouders of the currently affected. And I think you realize I wasn’t trying to talk about population reduction, just trying to find a better word for you. But that’s a good enough answer for me. Thanks for your time.

CaptainPlanet, I think you're confusing mind control with propaganda. What you're talking about is propaganda, not mind control. They are two different things.