-- A Look at the SIMPLE MIND of the Debunker --

reply to post by omnicron


Um, wow

It's even worse than I thought.

Classic Binary Thinking.

"Reality": Can you tell me what exactly reality is? Reality is in the mind of the beholder. It's YOUR perceptions, based on the way you'v emanaged to get your brain wired up and how you interpret things. Truth is another story. Reality could be referred to as truth, and too often is, however, in truth they're quite distinct. For instance, in your reality there's only left/right etc etc etc and what you said. In truth there's what's known in scientific circles as a SPECTRUM.

Let's take another of your examples:

confirmed/hallucinations

That one's the show stopper there. Gather round... In your view either something is confirmed, or it's some delusional hallucination etc. There's no room for say 'waiting to be confirmed', or 'we're not sure yet', or 'we need to gather more evidence', or 'it's a potentially plausible hypothesis but it's needs work and more observation', and so on. I really need'nt say more. But I'll be fair and point out that there are plenty of others from the "CT" side who's realities are also based on a sort of binarism mentality except their on the other polar side... depending on the issue. Of course there are tons of schools of "Conspiracist" thought out there, yet you apparently lump them all into one category. Hopefully one day you're reality will be able intepret not in such narrow absolutes, and instead percieve the spectrum.


[edit on 3-10-2007 by IgnoranceIsntBlisss]

Originally posted by StarNeon
The people who do nothing on this forum other then to debunk has an agenda, this isnt normal.

I think the word to use here is natural, ie "this isn't natural".

Once again, this is corroborating evidence that there is a barrier between the known and the knowing, and sheer belief is not the way to cross it.

Crossing the threshold changes our perceptions fundamentally, and the debunker is the litmus test. Is it not strange how our awareness of their existence alters after going through the looking glass?

Imagine with me a manifold of infinite possibilities, and being able to draw out from that any set of mathematical formulas to validate any phenomena, no matter if it did not exist previously. TT, AG, OU, FTL, anything. It all depends on the rules you create to make it happen.

I have a great tome sitting in my study called "A New Kind of Science" by Stephen Wolfram that shows exactly how it is done. In "The Game Players of Zan" by M. A. Foster they did the same thing.

Yes folks, I can assure you the mystic Universe is very much alive, science is not the end all of end alls, and the debunker's primary function is to deny access at all costs, for whatever reason, fear, envy, who knows. But we, who do know, cannot be deterred in our quest.

Originally posted by IgnoranceIsntBlisss
reply to post by omnicron

 

...Of course there are tons of schools of "Conspiracist" thought out there, yet you apparently lump them all into one category. Hopefully one day you're reality will be able intepret not in such narrow absolutes, and instead percieve the spectrum.


[edit on 3-10-2007 by IgnoranceIsntBlisss]

I'm lumping them all together simply because they do not bring forth pure hard evidence.

Take for example the idols of the CTs. Every sigle one of them does not, I repeat does not have a single smoking gun evidence of the alien/oil industry/weapons conspiracy.

Steven Greer, Stanton Friedman, John Lear, Robert O Dean, James Hall,
Philip Corso, Davis Icke, Jacky Marcell, William Strieber, Billy Meier, Bob Lazar etc DO NOT HAVE A SINGLE physical smoking gun evidence that what they claim is reality. They are just that claims, writings and boring interviews. No physical evidence whatsoever. Some of them use their credentials to make their claims believable, some of them are simply nutcases. With that being said, I do pity those folks who bought these characters' stories hook line and sinker.

At first I was a believer, but when I researched their websites, other peoples sources and here in ATS they are all in it for the money, selling DVDs, books, getting famous in C2C, starting their own cult or simply attention seekers.

Show me just one single undeniable infallible incriminating photograph/video/sample/ that confirms the above mentioned characters showing beyond any doubt what they claim exist in our world, today. You really can't.

Originally posted by Matyas

Originally posted by StarNeon
The people who do nothing on this forum other then to debunk has an agenda, this isnt normal.

I think the word to use here is natural, ie "this isn't natural".


Yes folks, I can assure you the mystic Universe is very much alive, science is not the end all of end alls, and the debunker's primary function is to deny access at all costs, for whatever reason, fear, envy, who knows. But we, who do know, cannot be deterred in our quest.

The problem is with most CTs they confuse the Universe that exist in reality with the Universe that only resides in one's mind.

Well if 'you folks' know about the secret of the universe, tell me. I'm sure it will solve all the world's problems. And oh don't forget to back it up with hard concrete evidence. You know to tell the debunkers that their claims are of reality or fantasy.






[edit on 3-10-2007 by omnicron]

I'm lumping them all together simply because they do not bring forth pure hard evidence.

Sure we do, but you don't like it.
We've offered as much evidence for the existence of star gates and moon anomalies as any scientific theory in a text book.

For example, we've provided:

1. Images
2. Texts
3. Known lab experiments
4. Eyewitness testimonies
5. Logic
6. Motive
7. Hard science to back it up
8. Multiple references
9. Presented in readable, clickable, zoomable forms
10. Free of charge with accompanying free texts, hypothetical discussions and theories galore.

Originally posted by undo

I'm lumping them all together simply because they do not bring forth pure hard evidence.

Sure we do, but you don't like it.
We've offered as much evidence for the existence of star gates and moon anomalies as any scientific theory in a text book.

For example, we've provided:

1. Images
2. Texts
3. Known lab experiments
4. Eyewitness testimonies
5. Logic
6. Motive
7. Hard science to back it up
8. Multiple references
9. Presented in readable, clickable, zoomable forms
10. Free of charge with accompanying free texts, hypothetical discussions and theories galore.

I have seen their 'evidence'. They are all purely speculative and whimsical. Most of the images presented, like all conspiracy theorists evidence are blurry, highly pixelated and cannot be used as a pure hard evidence.

Videos presented cannot be counted as they are low re, low frame rate and most of the time you can't make anything out.

Testimonies don't count because they can be faked. Text can also be made up.

Give me high definition high res full color undoctrined photos or videos.

Oh and writings and kindergarden level sketches of aliens don't count.

Lab experiments of what? Alien spacecraft fragments? ET tissue? Show me their photos, videos and reports then.

Hard science? I don't see alien technologies such as faster than light travel being used as everyday technology which can be classified as hard science.

Or is it pseudoscience?

If you want to prove alien spacecraft exist you show the video of close up high res undeniable footage from start to finish, if you have a close encounter of the first kind make sure you get a video footage and if you can an interview with one of these folks and make the footage available to the public for scrutiny. If you can do this I am more than happy to become a believer. Oh and the viktor alien interview doesn't count because it has been proven to be fake. You can't make out anything more than an alien head puppet.

But I think that everytime these things happen (allegedly thousands of report) for the last 50 years ALL of them forgot to use a camera or if they have they have been stolen by the MIB who came out of nowhere. How convenient.

I can see this thread going nowhere as you conspiracy theorists folks can't and will never be able to present clear, hard, undeniable evidence to support your theories because they are just that, theories, that only exist in the human psyche...





[edit on 4-10-2007 by omnicron]

Originally posted by omnicron
If you can prove a stargate exist by at least posting actual pictures and videos of how these ancient stargates look, I'll be happy to become a believer.

You know I believe it is you that has the thickest tin foil hat... You state that a government document that states they have studied EXISTING natural gates is BS because you don't believe any written word, but you want us to show you pictures and videos of what they look like?

How dumb is that? Photos and Videos are so easy to fake... but if that will make you a believer well I have a few...

I WANT CONCRETE HARD EVIDENCE FROM CONSPIRACY THEORISTS TO PROVE THEIR FAKE FACTS. No proof. No credibility. End of story.

Well then see you around... seems your lack of understanding the 'written word' doesn't allow you to see Theory and Hard Evidence are opposites...

And just how do you prove fake facts Seems you are very confused. If I were you I would do some more reading... so you better grasp what you are trying to say...

If we had hard evidence we would be on CNN... we have theories hence we are on a Conspiracy THEORY website...

But why let that stop you... those are only words after all

:shk:


[edit on 4-10-2007 by zorgon]

Text can also be made up.

Yep, it sure can. Once it dawns on you how totally relevant that statement is to this discussion, we'll finally be able to get somewhere. Otherwise, you might as well join the Holy Roman Empire's Earth centered universe, cause you have the same mindset as they did. The status quo is right. Period, end of discussion.

Just more of the same. Same old, same old.

And there are images of artifacts of things you can't explain with your current mindset, I can guarantee it. Any attempt to do so, will only result in going against the texts of the people who made the artifacts. Can't have it both ways. Or, let me rephrase, you may want to have it both ways, but I don't think that's possible.

Were you aware that the current approach to the ancient past was originally spawned in Germany, back in the final days of the HRE? We're talking at least 300 years ago. You know what they said at the end of their initial research ?

They said: The ancient greeks couldn't write.

You know what they did next? They removed from historical consideration, any text that was supported by greek texts, including the greek histories and pretty much every ancient text of mesopotamia, europe, china, india, and south america.

Guess what? They were wrong. And they never recanted that position. Well they did finally recognize that the greeks could write but refused to correct the rest of the mess they made of history, based on their "greeks couldn't write" fiasco. You are still being taught today that the ancients were all dummies that worshipped nature but were smart enough to pull off mammoth architectural feats of ridiculous proportions. And all because during the days of German Higher Criticism, they decided the greeks couldn't write and it went downhill from there.

Guess what else? They also decided Troy never existed because...you guessed it, the greeks couldn't write. And as I mentioned above, they finally corrected their stance on the greeks writing but decided the texts were all fiction anyway. So Troy never existed, for at least 290 years or so. Easy out, I guess. No need to fix it, we'll just claim they're all fictional. Been going on ever since. In fact, there's tons of theses that were written in that time frame, that are still quoted from today, as evidence that the ancients were all writing in mythological metaphor. In this fashion, they managed to eradicate from historical consideration, the written histories of every ancient culture on this planet --- except ancient Egypt. And get this: They translated the hieroglyphs for the first time. Oh yeah. Text can definitely be made up.

Troy was found.





[edit on 4-10-2007 by undo]

Originally posted by omnicron
Give me high definition high res full color undoctrined photos or videos.

No problem... Here is what you are looking for



Here is where you are looking for it...



Here is the ORIGINAL still at NASA's website (To big and high res to fit in the thread... so you will actually have to visit the page..



Now if you have trouble seeing that... if you think that a "fuzzy image" may I suggest you need glasses?

And if you don't bother to visit the link and look at what you asked for, go join Chorlton for warm beer and don't bother us anymore... oh and take down your sign

Skeptics Convention

Originally posted by omnicron
The problem is with most CTs they confuse the Universe that exist in reality with the Universe that only resides in one's mind.

Ah do believe it was Einstein that said the universe is mostly mental. Of course it is lost on you why I used a capital 'U' as opposed to a lowercase one?

Well if 'you folks' know about the secret of the universe, tell me. I'm sure it will solve all the world's problems.

And oh don't forget to back it up with hard concrete evidence.

I just did. Now you have to go read it.

You know to tell the debunkers that their claims are of reality or fantasy.

Well, looks as if you picked a job that will keep you in business for a looong time. You would have been SOL before recordings as everything was written!

Really, I am disappointed. I was hoping for some kind of organized attack, like mounting a front for a major assault. I figured your ilk would gather forces for a final showdown at the O-K Corral. I suppose I set my expectations too high

Originally posted by undo...you might as well join the Holy Roman Empire's Earth centered universe, cause you have the same mindset as they did.

And...

You are still being taught today that the ancients were all dummies that worshipped nature but were smart enough to pull off mammoth architectural feats of ridiculous proportions. And all because during the days of German Higher Criticism, they decided the greeks couldn't write and it went downhill from there.

I am reading Vitruvius the Ten Books on Architecture and they portray early man a savage beast, this 1st century BC. So the doctrine has not changed for 21 centuries.

One last note on the debunker, an analogy sticks in my mind of barnacles, a slow accretion and resistance building against progress. I wonder if the barnacle is a living fossil?

Matyas,

one thing that is relevant to the belief is that at the time, they had no idea that sumer or several other relevant civs, ever existed. many were buried under several feet of flood silt, dirt and rock. there was no trail of bread crumbs. this was worsened by the time of German Higher Criticism, for the obvious reasons (time frame: end of dark ages).

problem appears to be that GHC had a knee jerk reaction and went full tilt in the opposite direction (as far away as they could from ancient history, including the HRE). can't say i blame them for wanting to be free of that situation, but they compounded the problem by making the exact same mistakes the HRC was making, just on the opposite end of the spectrum. they became the new paradigm, the new status quo, and set about enforcing it in every university.

all in all, just another example of the status quo claiming to be the only source of truth and flubbing it up, ignoring the flub ups, and maintaining the same rigid positions. not that we don't all make mistakes, but we aren't all in charge of distributing "Truth". we can only effect the small corners of our existence and even then, if we strike a completely rigid stance, we're gonna end up with mud on our faces, just like the know-it-alls in the past.

reply to post by zorgon


I see nothing there. What are you guys on? If this was all a coverup, why would this picture be released to the public?

Are you guys hallucinating or something because there is really nothing there.
No UFOs, no structures. Just dead gray landscape.


[edit on 5-10-2007 by omnicron]

Originally posted by omnicron
I see nothing there.

I do not doubt that in the least...

But wait you say you see nothing but ask why it would be released? Methinks I smell a rat!

Why released? Simple 'leaked' to be found

Thanks for your opinion

Oh but wait! You did ask for Full Color High Res... My apologies












[edit on 5-10-2007 by zorgon]

Originally posted by omnicron
reply to post by zorgon

 

I see nothing there. What are you guys on? If this was all a coverup, why would this picture be released to the public?
Are you guys hallucinating or something because there is really nothing there.
No UFOs, no structures. Just dead gray landscape.
[edit on 5-10-2007 by omnicron]

To be blunt I doubt even they believe half of the fuzzy pictures they post, they will jump on any anomaly and piece of geography as proof, yet in all the hundreds of threads they have posted they have so far failed to provide any conclusive evidence, let alone proof of their outrageous claims about the moon and even less evidence on some of thier other threads.
Just pat them on the head and let them go on their merry conspiratorial way. It keeps them off the streets.

Originally posted by undo...they had no idea that sumer or several other relevant civs, ever existed. many were buried under several feet of flood silt, dirt and rock. there was no trail of bread crumbs. this was worsened by the time of German Higher Criticism, for the obvious reasons (time frame: end of dark ages).

In many ways true, but the Empire gradually extended all the way to Egypt. Now I don't know what they thought of the pyramids, who built them, etc., I am sure they knew Bedouins did not do it, so what was their take on ancient civs by then? 200 AD is a very interesting time. I think the contributor as you pointed out was the Dark Ages which lent a foothold for GHC.

we can only effect the small corners of our existence and even then, if we strike a completely rigid stance, we're gonna end up with mud on our faces, just like the know-it-alls in the past.

Yes, and the "alien" speech caught by Cassini is just the beginning. I cannot understand for the life of me why debunkers wish to discredit authoritative sources, as if their word carried equal or greater weight. I am reminded of extreme religious fundamentalists, who in any belief system claim their own superior to all others.

Originally posted by zorgon
I do not doubt that in the least...

Z, why do you even give them the time of day? Is it the thrill of kicking a red ant hill, or poking a hornet's nest, just to see what happens?

My ignore list is huge now, and some are invisible even though I did not use the function, because the software is smarter than they are!

And save your links for reference purposes.

I am out of this thread, may it die by falling flat on its face!

I am reminded of extreme religious fundamentalists, who in any belief system claim their own superior to all others.

My sister and I were discussing this one day, and she pointed out that the term "religious" can be applied to more than those who believe in a higher power. You can be voraciously fundamental, a rabid zealot, on just about any paradigm which forms your view of life, the universe and everything. Communism, for example, is simply worship of the government. It can be just as fundamentally rigid and it can be used as a rationale to eradict those that disagree with its foundations. Whether you worship gods, nature, men or yourself, it's a religious event, and has the same ramifications when applied to the lives of others.

[edit on 6-10-2007 by undo]

Originally posted by omnicron
Well I can also say that fantasy and paranoia are allies of the conspiracy theorists. They believe what exist in their minds.

"Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one" Albert Einstein

Yeah yeah I know a one liner... live with it

[edit on 6-10-2007 by zorgon]

Originally posted by omnicron
I have seen their 'evidence'. They are all purely speculative and whimsical. Most of the images presented, like all conspiracy theorists evidence are blurry, highly pixelated and cannot be used as a pure hard evidence… Videos presented cannot be counted as they are low re, low frame rate and most of the time you can't make anything out.

Eliminates most of the surveillance camera videos in bank robberies as well.

Originally posted by omnicron
Testimonies don't count because they can be faked. Text can also be made up.

I hope to God you never serve on a jury with this kind of attitude. But, bearing that statement to it’s logical conclusion, I would take it that none of us could believe anything you might claim (post) from here on in – because testimony is worthless!

Originally posted by omnicron
Oh and writings and kindergarden level sketches of aliens don't count.

So…only highly refined sketches by accomplished artists will suffice? Ironically, they are those that are most capable of distorting reality, yet you prefer their depiction?

Originally posted by omnicron
I can see this thread going nowhere as you conspiracy theorists folks can't and will never be able to present clear, hard, undeniable evidence to support your theories because they are just that, theories, that only exist in the human psyche...

You can always find a point of contention or reason to deny anything. That does not undermine the truth of what is presented. Some things can never be proved: Prove to me you were ever in love. Prove you ever had a dream. Obviously, you can’t prove these things to my satisfaction. Therefore, I can emphatically state that you have never loved anyone or had a dream….