-- A Look at the SIMPLE MIND of the Debunker --

I was browsing around the net a bit earlier and ran across this GEM at a site aptly URL'ed at www.debunker.com...

Conspiracy theories have always been with us, but they have become extremely popular in recent years. Offering simple answers to extremely complex questions, they are seductive to those who do not examine issues too closely. They also appeal to those who harbor deep-seated resentments against "the rich," "the powerful," "the Jews," or whatever other group a person might envy and wish to see brought down. (See my book Resentment Against Achievement for a great deal more about this.)

First of all, I feel this simple statement sums up the "argument" of most conspiracy "debunkers" better than any of us crazy conspiracy "theorists" ever could. In this one simple paragraph, this professional "debunker" has shown how simply the mind of the debunker works.

There are several clear examples of ignorance in this statement such as...

"Conspiracy theories have always been with us, but they have become extremely popular in recent years. Offering simple answers to extremely complex questions, they are seductive to those who do not examine issues too closely."

I don't feel it is necessary to actually POINT OUT the stupidity in this statement, however, since I have nothing better to do, I will.

If there is ONE THING you absolutely CAN'T call most conspiracy theories out there it would have to be SIMPLE. If anything, us "crazy conspiracy theorists" have a habit of analyzing things to the point of ABSURDITY. All you have to do to see this TRUTH is check out a few of the JFK Assassination conspiracy theories. The Warren Coverup Commission can't even TOUCH the amount of work and research even the most casual of conspiracy theorist has. Better than 4 decades have passed since this travesty of justice took place and you still have people out in Dealey Plaza analyzing shot angles and possible bullet trajectories in an effort to find the truth. And that is but 1 example, let's not even bother talking about those guys still picking over the Zapruder film with a fine tooth comb looking for any little bit they may have possibly missed or those guys that study the autopsy photos for MONTHS for the same reason. To call what these "debunkers" view as "stupid conspiracy theories" SIMPLE is nothing more than an exercise in IGNORANCE.

And now, on to the next sentence.

"They also appeal to those who harbor deep-seated resentments against "the rich," "the powerful," "the Jews," or whatever other group a person might envy and wish to see brought down."

This is another of those reasons the debunkers like to throw around. I suppose it never occurred to them that just MAYBE the reason that certain conspiracy theories target the rich or the powerful is because the rich and the powerful are actually behind a MAJORITY of the bad things that happen in this world. I think Chris Rock said it best when he said "Behind every great fortune is a great crime." This statement certainly hits the nail on the head. Saying that a conspiracy theory is the result of one being jealous of someone else's "wealth" or "power" is SIMPLE MINDED AT BEST! Naturally, there are times when this IS true, however, I think it's pretty safe to say this is more the exception than the rule. The rich and powerful, in most cases, got there by being the dirtiest player and having the pull to cover it up. This is how MOST conspiracy theories are born. Perhaps you guys need to think about that a bit. How likely do you think it would be for Joe Schmo that lives in the cheap studio apartment to off a President and have just about every aspect of it covered up and hidden from the public for the next half century or more.

And last but not least:

"(See my book Resentment Against Achievement for a great deal more about this.)"

I'm quite sure this little "throw in" was the true point of the writer's little spiel. It's all about the MONEY!! The title of this [sarcasm] great [/sarcasm] book sums things up quite nicely.



I find it quite amazing that in a short paragraph he summed up the simple mindedness of 90% of the debunkers out there. The brutal irony, I suppose, is that he was only able to shoot us crazy nut jobs down in the simplest of ways with ZERO backup.


I ask you:

A lone nut job firing from a building for reasons unknown? Or a conspiracy that reaches into the very heart of the government and branches out into just about every area of our society from oil tycoons to the mafia that has been covered up to the extent of dozens of mysterious deaths, the possible mutilation of the president's dead body to support the "story", possible faked video and photographs, sinister meetings the night before and on and on and on.

Which is the "SIMPLE" explanation?



Jasn

I don't know. I think that there are several conspiracy theorists who fit the description that is mentioned in the article you posted. I believe there are probably more people that are quick to try and link a conspiracy to things that they have issue with.

At the same time though, I also think that you are correct. There are many CT's who really do seek the truth. People who do real research to uncover what is really going on.

The problem is that there are so many CT's that really give the entire community a bad name. I mean this site is great but there are many threads that really tear away a lot of the credibility that the site carries.

I feel the article is very unfair, but equally, your post was somewhat unbalanced as well. I have known conspiracy theorists who use their ideas to back racist propaganda (when I was studying terrorism I looked into the beliefs of the Aryan Nations and Al-Qaeda, both of whom favour a "Jews run the world" conspiracy). I have known people to suspect a conspiracy with little to no evidence to back up their claims, other than an a priori belief in their own pet theory, which acts like a lense, distorting their analysis. In that example, a jump to "it was a conspiracy" is simplistic. These people are not a majority, but they exist.

But the bias of this article is pretty obvious. He wants to act as a defender to the rich and powerful, so he can ride their coat tails. And to do that, of course he will try and tar anyone who may undermine these people as "crazy" or unbalanced. Sure, there are problems with some people in the conspiracy theory community. But equally, there is some very interesting, thought provoking and accurate work too. I don't think you can take it as a whole and try to describe everyone as the same, because the number of contradictory and differing theories make it far too difficult to generalize.

reply to post by Karlhungis



It is true that there are idiots in any "group".

However, I personally take pride in my title of "conspiracy theorist" and I feel that the title is one that has to be earned. The simple fact that we actually FORM THEORIES shows some inkling of intelligence on our parts hahaha. Much more so than just accepting what we are told I would suppose.


Thanks for the reply and keep em coming.


Jasn

reply to post by Kaliayev


While it is true that some people hide behind a "conspiracy theory" in order to throw around their bigotous and STUPID propaganda, I must put these people in the IDIOT category and not the true conspiracy theorist category. See my previous post to see what I mean.

I wasn't really targeting the guy's article with my post. I was referring to his very narrow summation of what conspiracy theory is. In turn he is also saying the same for the true conspiracy theorist.

This guy, like the majority of debunkers, obviously can't distinguish between a true conspiracy theorist and someone who is just blowing hot air for the sake of contributing to "global warming".

Anyhow, thanks for contributing.


Jasn

Originally posted by SimiusDei
I was browsing around the net a bit earlier and ran across this GEM at a site aptly URL'ed at www.debunker.com...

Conspiracy theories have always been with us, but they have become extremely popular in recent years. Offering simple answers to extremely complex questions, they are seductive to those who do not examine issues too closely. They also appeal to those who harbor deep-seated resentments against "the rich," "the powerful," "the Jews," or whatever other group a person might envy and wish to see brought down. (See my book Resentment Against Achievement for a great deal more about this.)

I have to say that ATS has a good number of GREAT debunkers that KNOW what they are talking about and do a GREAT job at researching to debunk. However, unfortunately, there are those debunkers i have see on ATS (unfortunately again) that reinforce that comment above. It's amazing really to see a one-liner debunking a very complex and proof laden post and then that member is never heard from again in the thread.

Hehe... well, we can thank the "conspiracy theorists" for bringing out the truth about a lot of things in human history. If it wasnt for them, the governments word would be final.

These are the people who are awake in society while the rest are asleep and buying the lie.

Kudos to all of them.


[edit on 2-10-2007 by Copernicus]

reply to post by shearder



In most cases, the great "debunkers" of ATS fall more under the (deserving of respect) heading of "Conspiracy Theorist" as well. In most cases they simply subscribe to a different theory than we do and they do it with a bit of style and intelligence.

Just the title "debunker" to me screams AGENDA!!! Most of the time, when one spends a great deal of time trying to disprove another member's theory while not putting forth a replacement theory of their own is only doing so to hear themselves speak (or see themselves type in this case) and mostly just trying to get a rise out of someone else by making light of and insulting a theory another person has put their heart and time into.

No, I definitely wouldn't insult the great ones of ATS by throwing them in the debunker category.



Jasn

reply to post by shearder


By the way Shearder, I just read your short story. It was quite good.

Also, at the beginning, when Mike says, "What do you mean MY KIND?" I swear I heard discrimination lawsuit and a racial tirade coming on. Then I remembered I wasn't watching an Eddie Griffin movie.....HAHAHAH


Jasn

reply to post by SimiusDei


I agree with you, flagged and starred.

These are the sort of posts i enjoy reading on ats, there are not that many but the few that i find is worth staying on ats for.

Although we need "debunkers" to balance us "conspiracy theorists" out, i call them our ying to our yang, because they make us think of other possibilities, but some, infact most debunkers cannot think for themselves, they will find some information that has some sort of credibility and they will not budge from the idea they have read.

Example, "Our government would not do this to our own people" now this is a good point, but lets take 9/11 for an example, when Bush got told his country was under attack, he didnt do anything for 10 minutes, showed no emotion and carried on reading "my pet goat".

Now for someone who is in charge of a big country like the USA,lets just say he didnt exactly fit the description of someone that cared.

Originally posted by SimiusDei
reply to post by Kaliayev

 

While it is true that some people hide behind a "conspiracy theory" in order to throw around their bigotous and STUPID propaganda, I must put these people in the IDIOT category and not the true conspiracy theorist category. See my previous post to see what I mean.

I wasn't really targeting the guy's article with my post. I was referring to his very narrow summation of what conspiracy theory is. In turn he is also saying the same for the true conspiracy theorist.

This guy, like the majority of debunkers, obviously can't distinguish between a true conspiracy theorist and someone who is just blowing hot air for the sake of contributing to "global warming".

Anyhow, thanks for contributing.

Jasn

Thanks for the clarification.

It seems the thread, as whole, gets across the point I was trying to make anyhow, so its all good. I may have given a somewhat harsher reply than intended anyway, due partially to lack of food and partially because the idiot in the article you quoted makes true skeptics like myself (skeptical in the original sense of the word ie; of everything, including the government and rich people etc), look like morons.

And that makes me a sad panda.

Ohoho!!! All debunkers are STUPID, STUPID, STUPID.

Try again.

I suggest that the OP read this thread related to "simple minded" CTers

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Nice little counter-balance!!!!!!!!!!!!

Which one best describes YOU??

[edit on 2-10-2007 by KnowItAll]

Oh dear, not another 'Conspiracy Theorist vs Skeptic' thread.
It's the eternal war, each side claiming they know the truth and subtly implying that those who disagree with them are paranoid (in the case of skeptics) or close-minded (CTers).
The fact of the matter is, that both groups have their extremists (the paranoid CTer ranting about how Masons are controlling the boy scouts to create a legion of super-soldiers vs the simplistic skeptic claiming that the government is only and always will act in the best interests of the people), but these are by-and-large outweighed by the number of rational, self-proclaimed CTers and Skeptics.
Also each group (Skeptic and CTer) requires the other to 'balance' them out. Without Skeptics, ATS will instantly hop onto whatever conspiracy, true or false, emerges while without CTer's ATS will become another purveyor of the 'There's nothing to see hear' arguments.
I've been on ATS for a year, and I'd say that most of the pro and con arguments of the various conspiracies here are well structured, thought-out and backed up with evidence.
And anyway, those that aren't are quickly ripped to shreds by the opposing side.

So is there really a need for another thread baiting each other?

Simius,

And the analyzation to the point of absuridty issue is then recognized and used as the excuse not to believe the CT. so either way, you lose. truth of the matter is, some folks like the comfy position of being mainstream on pretty much everything, even if it means lying to themselves about it. People in general, also tend to be pack animals and lemmings. So rather than think for themselves, they often let other people do it for them, especially on topics that are controversial or mainstream (two extreme sides of the coin, and as everyone knows, there's not much on this planet that is entirely black or white, but you sure as heck wouldn't know it by reading forums or watching the news).

Ah well, as it says in THE MUPPETS TAKE MANHATTAN ---

"Peoples is peoples."

Ahh, the "Skeptic" social group. Be sure to note the capital S... very important.

I have at least a couple posts specifically addressing them.
The Skeptinazi Credo: "Conspiracies Don't Exist"
9/11 Red Herring Free-For-All!

Also, a flowchart that maps their reasoning:

Originally posted by uberarcanist
Ohoho!!! All debunkers are STUPID, STUPID, STUPID.
Try again.

How to tell a bad 'debunker'

When the debunker resorts to personal attacks instead of attacking the issue at hand...

A long time ago I saw a debate in Toronto run by Pierre Burton.. On the one side was Eric von Danekin on the other a well known Archaeologist...

All through the debate Eric remains calm and stuck to his theory, maintaining throughout that this was his interpretation and that the viewer had to make up their own mind...

As the debate progressed, Erik asked the eminent Dr a few simple questions... like "Okay how do YOU interpret the items?" At this point the Dr. started attacking Eric's personal background, training etc...

When Eric pushed calmly to please answer the question... the good Dr started shouting and soon name calling...

The debate ended and Pierre stated publicly that although he completely disagreed with Eric, never the less he declared him winner of the debate...


I see many 'debunkers' use these tactics... be a skeptic and show me why I am wrong with opposing data... but start name calling and getting mad... I list you among the fools... or paid disinfo agent

Personally I LOVE debunkers like that They really DO help the cause, because the closer they get to the boiling point, the more followers I get



Debunker



reply to post by IgnoranceIsntBlisss


LOL Saw that chart after I posted... I love that



[edit on 2-10-2007 by zorgon]

A simple explanation is the most probable answer to all questions.
If a phenomena does not have enough concrete evidence then it simply doesn't exist. Simple as that.

Our modern civilization is built on science, not by gut feelings, angels and devils on your shoulders, santa claus the tooth fairy or the boogeyman.

If you would very much prefer to live in the olden days where people make decisions using random pattern of bones, crystal ball or joss sticks then you are welcomed to live without the inventions that science, which had created
these REAL objects that benefit mankind.

Those who don't believe in concrete evidence is obviously living in a fantasy world.

Don't use electricity, don't use computers and don't use cars. I suggest you become an amish.



[edit on 2-10-2007 by omnicron]

I much prefer this article to the one the original poster presented:
www.publiceye.org...

Everything isn't a conspiracy; usually there is a mundane explanation for things, although I'll admit that I enjoy reading some of the wild theories that fly on ATS and other sites because its entertaining.

reply to post by IgnoranceIsntBlisss


Awesome chart! I'm gonna save it in my hard-drive so that I can win again!

Kidding