African shaman performing levitation

I'll play devil's advocate here, stick my neck out and say, "let's all agree that the African fellow is actually levitating." ...play along, ok?

Let's suspend disbelief and pretend that we at ATS have invested our own time, energy, and maybe even money out of our pockets to hire a small production company to capture this event on film, so we can use it do prove something paranormal happened.

After going through ALL the footage from TWO cameras, THIS is what we settle on? COME ON.

It doesn't matter whether you believe that levitation is real, or even that this is a real act caught on film. The bottom line is that THIS VIDEO IS NOT USEFUL FOR ANYTHING other than serving as fuel for the blind believers. If it was made by a legitimate, objective third party, and the act wasn't phony, it would contain undeniable, unedited pans up and down the length of the "shamans" body, from multiple angles. Instead we're shown the vaguest, most shadowy CUTS of footage, with a more-than-suspicious jarring of the camera to the left, (hmm, right about where the guy's center of gravity should be).

You people that are believers should be just as disappointed with this video as the rest of us are, since, regardless of it's authenticity, IT LOOKS JUST LIKE A FAKE VIDEO.

(Edited for spelling/typo)

[edit on 9/5/2007 by Teratoma]

Originally posted by zysin5
We have talked in the past. You sound like a broken record here man..
We are not saying Prana is not real!!! We are not saying no way!! No way something out of this world exsists!!! Please dont insult me!!

Let's sort out your convoluted argument whereby you contradict yourself, however unwittingly.

On the one hand you imply that Prana is real. While on the other hand you state that nothing outside this world exists.

You are half-right.

Prana/Ki/Chi represents an energy this is very much outside this world and yet it also exists.

Originally posted by zysin5
We are simply saying, This shaman in the video is not using what you describe as prana.

Why are we to believe that?

If you have no example of someone who you think does have a Gift of Prana then you have no reference with which to base your claim

Originally posted by zysin5
So I will buy this hook line and sinker, if you show me these guys doing it under a control enviroment!!!

Be careful what you ask for...

In June of 1974, Matthew Manning & Uri Geller, under strict laboratory conditions, demonstrated genuine psychokinetic (PK) ability, conducted and concluded by Dr. A.R.G. Owen.

The reason why it cannot be easily replicated in labs is because you need to have a group of spirits who wish to cooperate in order to provide the needed energy. Most do not. They have their own agendas.

PK/TK cannot be proven with physical instrumentation because there are no devices that can measure it directly. But the argument can be made that it can and is proven indirectly through people like our Shaman friend, Criss Angel, Cyril Takayama, David Blaine, Derren Brown, John Chang, and others, through the effect of said energies.

reply to post by Paul_Richard

Prana/Ki/Chi represents an energy this is very much outside this world and yet it also exists.

Prehaps to folk like yourself.. You think what you want..

You dont know me personally, and I dont sit here and make these wild claims about having powers.. You did sir..

Some people just dont seem to get it.. Yet we have all these people who walk around like they have a clue.. Well my friend, no one knows..

But we do know when someone is F#$%ing with us okay...

And I think we can both agree on that.. Or do you really have all the answers to Prana? Are you going to sit here like some magic man, in a dark room, with incense burning around you.. Saying, come my child. I have the answer you seek..

After all my years I found those who claim to have all the answers, really only understand it on their level.. Not my level.. ITs a personal journey, which no one can open a door for you.. To some like me, there is no door, hence I have no need to open them.

In June of 1974, Matthew Manning & Uri Geller, under strict laboratory conditions, demonstrated genuine psychokinetic (PK) ability, conducted and concluded by Dr. A.R.G. Owen.

This is simply not the science I need.. that is Pesuo-Science, not the mainstream science in which the tests need to be conducted.

[edit on 5-9-2007 by zysin5]

How sad. I posted an opinion and statement of fact and all I get is : How insulting I am and how silly I am to believe the evidence. STILL no comments on how it could be done. Don't you guys get it? You cannot simply say " it's all a trick ' and leave it there. Why not? Because there is NO EVIDENCE that there are any props!! Thats why!! you are STILL asking us to believe that which cannot be seen, and even though it is in the physical realm, it is invisible!!


WHY has not ONE of you addressed the evidence? Hmm? Because you cannot. There is NO evideince that props are used. You are AVOIDING THE QUESTIONS I ASKED. I know why, but do you? I think not. You are telling us that we are supposed to believe in invisible props because you are unable to acept reality. That is a losing effort.Please tell us HOW Criss did the golf course event. C'mon now, no slipping and sliding away..tell us.You will find, that like all other deniers, you are UNABLE to come up with a LIKELY and INTELLIGENT alternative.

Since you CANNOT come up with a LIKELY and INTELLIGENT alternative, you will continue to ignore the main issues and just claim amazement that anyone could be so silly as to believe their eyes and all of the evidence presented!! This is like walking into a room full of first year students and expecting doctoral grade thinking; first you have to have a basis of an open mind, and the ability to discern the facts and interpret them correctly.
Then, and only then, will you be able to judge what is seen reliably. That is not an insult, that is a fact. The lack of ability to see ALL possibilities is a trait of those in denial.

Your logic is as follows:" Since I know all about the extent of reality, the spirit realm and dimensionality, I know that no man can levitate, because gravity is a force that cannot be manipulated or overcome. This said, Criss Angel MUST be using props, because to believe otherwise would violate the above assumptions. The fact that no props are evident or proven or even alluded to means nothing; Criss must have some very advanced props, is all. Criss must engender loyalty to an extreme degree is all that it is. We are just too inexperienced and have such poor powers of observation and ability to analyze that we are unable to see the props or how they could be used. It HAS to be a trick!! It HAS to be a trick because I am unable to accept the alternatives. "

Imagine if all scientists used the same logic. Where would we be if explorers and scientists assumed they knew all they needed to and based all their observations on assumptions instead of the evidence at hand? Chaos, thats what. You deniers have made a DETERMINATION that no one can levitate. Therefore, when you see someone levitate, you automatically assign it to the file marked " Magic ' and close the drawer. That is the very height of dishonesty in critical evaluation.

Please, just once, show us ONE VIDEO of anyone performing a similar event while using props. That would tel us how Criss does it, right? WHY can't you come up with even one? because they do not exist. There are NO videos of ANYONE doing HIGH LEVITATIONS without any props being evident or proven or even possible under the circumstances because they DO NOT EXIST. WHY do they not exist? C'mon deniers, answer the question..WHY cannot even ONE example of someone else be found that shows us a high levitation under even close circumstances? You know why, because there are none.

So, you tell us about other events, events that have NOTHING at all to do with the events we speak of. That is called avoidance. Why not just tell us HOW you imagine that Criss pulls off these amazing levitations if you are so aware and certain that it is all tricks; just saying " Gee, he is an illusionist and so he is the only one that knows ' is totally unsatisfying and does NOTHING to prove your case. Rather than attacking me or alluding to things that are NOT part of the issue, lets stick to LEVITATIONS and the EVIDENCE that we have. So far, NO evidence has been given that supports the view that Criss uses props in his HIGH levitations; abundant evidence has been given that supports a belief that Criss uses NO props in the same events.

Stop running away from the issues and questions and stick to logic, common sense and the evidence. If you cannot, then that fact will determine your credibility, which at this moment has absolutely nothing backing it up but guesses and spurious and unproven allegations.

TELL US HOW Criss did the golf course levitation please.Lets hear the LOGICAL and LIKELY ways it was done if props were used. Why can't they be seen? What props could have produced the results we see if they are invisible? If you are alleging massive pay offs to witnesses you lose; never proven or alluded to...a ridiculous assumption. If you are alleging props that are removed from the film, how do you account for the crowd reactions? No one would be impressed to see someone doing an event if props were there and able to be seen, right?

Your house of cards is shaking and about to do a Twin Towers, crumbling into dust, as you struggle to find a way that you can justify denial in the face of ALL of the evidence available. When it finally hits you that there is NO WAY that Criss could have used props for those events because to do so would have been impossible without them being seen or reported, you will be at the START of the journey of reality and all that means.

We will NOT be convinced by just saying it, you must show it, and you cannot. We have dumped massive proofs upon you and all you can do is ignore them and claim superior knowledge despite no factual basis for such. It is nerve and gaul, but it does not convince. Tell us HOW or admit that you are unable to, that at least would be honest. To claim that you have the answers but just cannot tell them to us or show them to us is beyond ridiculous and undeserving of respect.

Get detailed, tell us how ..show us some others doing it..IF YOU CAN.. If NOT, then open up your minds or admit that you are in a state of denial that has no legitimate basis for being your case in chief. The proof is there, the evidence overwhelming; only a state of denial can account for what we see the deniers claiming, there is NO EVIDENCE whatsoever that Criss uses props in his high levitations, a fact that sends the deniers into a tizzy of outrage and spin. Well, lets see the answers, please

Originally posted by eyewitness86 Don't you guys get it? You cannot simply say " it's all a trick ' and leave it there. Why not? Because there is NO EVIDENCE that there are any props!! Thats why!! you are STILL asking us to believe that which cannot be seen, and even though it is in the physical realm, it is invisible!!

But it is OK for you guys to say its CTK but offer no proof?

It wouldn't be much of a magic trick if you could see the props
There is equally no proof of CTK in this vid either is there, could that just be because there is no such thing?

An open minded person who may accept the possibility of CTK would not accept this video as proof. The illusionist argument cannot be dismissed by just saying "I can't see the props!"...that's the point of an illusionists job

Only a delusional CTK believer could accept this footage and only this footage alone as evidence.

The closed minded attitude of CTK believers are amusing I don't know how they get through the day with all those miracles out there
In the Mall the doors automatically open as if by magic. Cars are propelled without horses and what keeps an aircraft in the air

Keep up the good work guys you keep us amused Got to be the best double act since Morecombe and Wise!!...who writes your material

The world needs people like you, otherwise there would be no-one to buy dodgy goods...and where would the economy be then

reply to post by zysin5

All matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, there is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves. Bill Hicks

If you truly believe what your signature states then why is it such a leap for you to think that levitation is impossible?

If physical reality is only an illusion or dream then why would it be so unbelievable for those with a better understanding of this to not be able to preform such feats as levitation?

After all there are stories of monks, shamans and others throughout history that have been seen by numerous witnesses levitating.

Maybe they are not levitating, if we are all one consciousness then maybe they are manipulating our consciousness to make us perceive they are levitating.

Originally posted by Paul_Richard
One thing to look for is this...
Control.

When there is a lack of control, it often points to a Gift as opposed to a prop behind it.
Why?
Because Gifts come from without, not from within.
The Shaman falling on his back indicates a lack of control.

[

Paul,

You need to answer my question as to why someone with this ability will not do it in a controlled environment free of variables. I and every other person here would not need years of understanding if we had one person actually use these gifts in an environment free of extraneous variables and confounding.
As example: I would set up an experiment with different level platforms in a controlled environment. I would have the subject wear just shorts for modesty and let him levitate at will on any of the platforms. If he was able then we could all agree it is real.

Originally posted by eyewitness86
How sad. I posted an opinion and statement of fact and all I get is : How insulting I am and how silly I am to believe the evidence. STILL no comments on how it could be done. Don't you guys get it? You cannot simply say " it's all a trick ' and leave it there. Why not? Because there is NO EVIDENCE that there are any props!! Thats why!! you are STILL asking us to believe that which cannot be seen, and even though it is in the physical realm, it is invisible!!


WHY has not ONE of you addressed the evidence? Hmm? Because you cannot. There is NO evideince that props are used. You are AVOIDING THE QUESTIONS I ASKED. I know why, but do you? I think not. You are telling us that we are supposed to believe in invisible props because you are unable to acept reality. That is a losing effort.Please tell us HOW Criss did the golf course event. C'mon now, no slipping and sliding away..tell us.You will find, that like all other deniers, you are UNABLE to come up with a LIKELY and INTELLIGENT alternative.

Damn, does every post from you need to be so big hehe.

The point is all these videos could be true and they could also be not true, and also a few of them could be true and most could be not true, so how do WE as a group determined which one are they?

All these performers seem to freely do it anytime they want for their TV shows and videos, and so we must conclude that they should be able to also do it for an independent group in a controlled environment free of extraneous variables so we can first factually prove these powers do exist and then weed out the real from the fake.

I’m not sure why you do not agree with this for I really cannot use any video to prove either way that what is on it is real or fake, so let’s stop the “you prove it” thing and get to the bottom of this and really prove it the correct way.


[edit on 5-9-2007 by Xtrozero]

reply to post by etshrtslr

If you truly believe what your signature states then why is it such a leap for you to think that levitation is impossible?

I do belive that too. And its not a great leap for me to belive. And never said its impossible either.

What is a great leap for me, is to see a magic trick preformed, and people start claiming its real, and others asking is this real.

I dont wish to play mind games with people. so I keep it simple.. Ya know you can get all wise and deep with people, but very few understand.

Thus is the great problem I have when I see and feel others who are being mislead.. I am a beliver, but highly skeptical.. If you can follow me.

I like to quote Carl Sagan alot. As he makes alot of sense to me..
But I do have hopes, and wonders of the arts, dont get me wrong..

But I am not an easy one to convince.. As you might have heard, there will be many frauds, and false prophets, who claim this and that..

I stand fast aginst those who tread aginst my brothers and sisters, and manipulate them for an agenda, using Pesuo-Science..

I belive it to be JUST as corupted as our USA government...
Half the spiritual leaders are truely evil, and I just dont trust most those self claimed "Spiritual Guru"

There I said it!

Eyewittness...
You have kids man!!! Are there not things in your kids life that they dont know about? Some things that go unseen to their naive minds?
I hope so, becasue the way you speak, you think seeing is beliving?

You ever seen shows like just for laughs... Or room 401?

Yes all tricks to make people happy, and have a laugh.. its good for those things... but when you take life so seriously, you get caught up like you do. I think you have alot to add, I enjoy a good arch rival I think you top the list sir.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. - Carl Sagan

Nailed it!!!
Or do you not take Carl Sagan as a good source? And discard everything he had to offer us in a logical sense.. I felt him with me ,on this post..

[edit on 5-9-2007 by zysin5]

I'll believe someone can levitate when they do it naked in broad daylight and with nothing around them.
Common sense tell me that this is fake, by reason of many things already discussed here.

I'll look at this with an open mind.
Sure, we've seen Criss Angel do similiar, although we KNOW his was fake, because that's what his show is about, ILLUSIONS, so right off the bat we know already it's not real.

This however, is pretty interesting.

We do not KNOW what humans are capable of, since we don't use the full capacity of our brains.
Can people do this? Probably. I mean, I've seen some crazy stuff happen before, that can only be explained by WILL power, so I wont rule this out.

However, for ANYONE to say "noone can do this, noone has powers", that's completely idiotic and ignorant.
Everyone KNEW the world was flat till it was proven to be round. Everyone KNEW we were alone, till people started seeing things in the sky we couldnt explain.. so why say we KNOW what humans are fully capable of, when we dont?

DENY IGNORANCE.

Something Interesting I noticed, I don't know if anyone else noticed, I cannot say if hes really levitating or not, but what I noticed to be kind of odd was, why at night? could it be to make it harder to see something hidden?? hmmm who knows.

[edit on 5-9-2007 by _Phoenix_]

its fake, not real

My dear Sir,

Originally posted by eyewitness86

STILL no comments on how it could be done.

Originally posted by Lexion

Hmmm. Let's see.

He waits until it's dark.
One strike against him.

He wears an ornate (and large)
girdle-looking apparatus.
Fair enough.

But, wait. Look at the trees/bushes
behind him.
Conveniently parted, directly behind
him.

These "shaman's" wouldn't have the
need for wires and rigs to support them.

A simple lever mounted behind them,
operated by an "apprentice" would do
just fine.

Originally posted by eyewitness86

you are STILL asking us to believe that which cannot be seen, and even though it is in the physical realm, it is invisible!!

(whispered) It's behind him.
Don't tell anyone !

Originally posted by eyewitness86

The lack of ability to see ALL possibilities is a trait of those in denial.

The lack of a full 360 degree view is
a trait of a hoax.

Originally posted by eyewitness86

I know that no man can levitate, because gravity is a force that cannot be manipulated or overcome.

Not by the power of the mind.
Has never been proven.

Originally posted by eyewitness86

This said, Criss Angel MUST be using props, because to believe otherwise would violate the above assumptions.

First, this thread is about a "shaman"
levitating. Not Criss Angel.

Second, Mr. Angel admits he performs
"illusions", not magic.

Originally posted by eyewitness86

Criss must engender loyalty to an extreme degree is all that it is.

Large dollar amounts insure incredible
loyalty.

Originally posted by eyewitness86

We are just too inexperienced and have such poor powers of observation and ability to analyze that we are unable to see the props or how they could be used.

Please Sir, speak for yourself, not
the ATS community.

Originally posted by eyewitness86

It HAS to be a trick!! It HAS to be a trick because I am unable to accept the alternatives.

Please provide undeniable proof of
the alternative.

Originally posted by eyewitness86

There are NO videos of ANYONE doing HIGH LEVITATIONS without any props being evident or proven or even possible under the circumstances because they DO NOT EXIST. WHY do they not exist?

Product (entertainment) survivability.
If they showed us, it would be a one-
shot gimmick.

Originally posted by eyewitness86

or alluding to things that are NOT part of the issue, lets stick to LEVITATIONS

You Sir brought Criss Angel into a
discussion of a "shaman" levitating.
Not me.

Originally posted by eyewitness86

Stop running away from the issues and questions and stick to logic, common sense and the evidence.

Oh, I do.

Originally posted by eyewitness86

If you cannot, then that fact will determine your credibility, which at this moment has absolutely nothing backing it up but guesses and spurious and unproven allegations.

Right back at ya.

Originally posted by eyewitness86

We will NOT be convinced by just saying it, you must show it, and you cannot.

Again, right back at ya.

It's just an illusion. A trick.
A play on the eyes.

Regards,
Lex

As I said in page 1 the shaman is using magnetic resonance to allow him to rise up, as if he is lighter than air. This is not magic nor trickery.

Originally posted by agent violet
As I said in page 1 the shaman is using magnetic resonance to allow him to rise up, as if he is lighter than air. This is not magic nor trickery.

Which of course is your theory, and just an opinion. You have no chance of really knowing, unless you go there, and see for yourself.

[edit on 5-9-2007 by _Phoenix_]

Originally posted by agent violet
As I said in page 1 the shaman is using magnetic resonance to allow him to rise up, as if he is lighter than air. This is not magic nor trickery.

How can you be so certain?

What I saw was the guy rise up and his back was never seen. Even the side camera was going from his face to his feet only and at one point as it panned up it moved outward to the front of him then back again once it reached the guy’s head. This basically means his support was visible from the back. I say it was just a simple black pole attached to a harness on some kind of fulcrum to raise and lower him.

One other part that was interesting was when he fell exhausted at the end. That scene came right after a side shot and he is not floating at all but falling. There isn’t even a half second of floating before he fell to the ground. During the whole filming the front part of his robe lies fully down except for his falling scene where it is flipped up even at the start of the fall.

This basically means that after they removed the equipment in the back he was filmed jumping in the air with the footage cut right at the downward motion of his jump. (hence the flipping of his robe)


[edit on 5-9-2007 by Xtrozero]

your right i cant conclusively prove that he is using mg res. however i have yet to see anyone provide conclusive proof saying its faked and a hoax. so until then i guess i will just continue to state my thought on what is going on.

[edit on 9/5/2007 by agent violet]

Originally posted by agent violet
your right i cant conclusively prove that he is using mg res. however i have yet to see anyone provide conclusive proof saying its faked and a hoax. so until then i guess i will just continue to state my thought on what is going on.

[edit on 9/5/2007 by agent violet]

I respect your thoughts greatly for the simple reason you do not come off as if your assumptions are 100% correct, and are just like my pole theory that cannot be proved either. Maybe one day we will have the true answer…I hope it is more interesting than my pole theory

reply to post by Xtrozero


Chances are that as this is from africa, it is a stunt, nigerian scam or a trick by robert mugabe's thugs