The Douglas Bader Mystery

Early on in this thread, there was some discussion on the purported existance of sealed papers relating to Bader and whether this might support the notion that he might have been involved in some secret mission or somesuch.

Well, as I was at the National Archive today on some of my normal research, I undertook a search to see if there is any truth in this story of sealed papers, and to my surprise there is.

However there is no mystery attached. The papers are held under reference DR4/388 and though they are FOI exempt and therefore remain sealed, the subject of their contents is disclosed - they relate to CAA medical advisory board decisions on Sir Douglas Bader's medical certification for a private pilot's licence between 1977 and 1980, thus these will be open in 2 years time under the 30 year rule. There are _no_ other sealed papers relating to Bader held by the National Archive. Even sealed papers are traceable!

So that takes care of that one!


[edit on 27-2-2008 by SPM.45]

Originally posted by SPM.45
Early on in this thread, there was some discussion on the purported existance of sealed papers relating to Bader and whether this might support the notion that he might have been involved in some secret mission or somesuch.

Well, as I was at the National Archive today on some of my normal research, I undertook a search to see if there is any truth in this story of sealed papers, and to my surprise there is.

However there is no mystery attached. The papers are held under reference DR4/388 and though they are FOI exempt and therefore remain sealed, the subject of their contents is disclosed - they relate to CAA medical advisory board decisions on Sir Douglas Bader's medical certification for a private pilot's licence between 1977 and 1980, thus these will be open in 2 years time under the 30 year rule. There are _no_ other sealed papers relating to Bader held by the National Archive. Even sealed papers are traceable!

So that takes care of that one!


[edit on 27-2-2008 by SPM.45]

You're just part of the cover up and working in conjunction with MI5, MI6, CIA, FBI, FSA, CAA, MOD, FAA, RUC, MRI, OTU, BOG, WC, VD and TTFN

Damn, you found me out!

But you forgot OTT

[edit on 1-3-2008 by SPM.45]

Ken recently sent me this funny U2U. More of the same really - an addtion of 2 and 2 coming to an answer of 200!.

I can only say that as ever, he's wrong. Personal papers relating to medical records are often subject to the 30 year rule for obvious reasons. There are no other sealed papers on Bader and here's the usual logic flaw - if Ken knows about these alleged papers, they are identificable and therefore traceable.

There was also some suggestion that Radio Liverpool had been "got at" to stop digging on the story - well that's a misrepresentation too. They looked at the story and decided it was too thin to go further with, just as Doghead did. No Man From the Ministry, no conspiracy. Just facts.

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[Mod Edit: Please see NEW POLICY regarding U2Us (PRIVATE messages). If this member wishes to make a post for all to see he is fully aware of how to proceed. Thank you - Jak]





[edit on 7/3/08 by JAK]

Fair enough.

Ken's now only trading insults by U2U, so that must remain away from the public domain. But he says my last posts are "lies", which is an interesting interpretation of verifiable facts.

It's clear that the so-called sealed papers are a figment of imagination. If not, then Ken can divulge the reference number. QED.

[edit on 8-3-2008 by SPM.45]

An interesting point was raised in discussion the other evening, that Bader might have been classed by his German captors as a Prominente prisoner, but in a level below such as Giles Romily. There is actually no evidence for the existence of this "Tier Two" Prominente group but it is an interesting thought, and if so is another point against the alleged release by Bader in 42.

Whether there is anything in this or not, there are of course other factual points on a similar line such as Bader's classification by the German OKW as an Enemy of the German People because of his continued position as a severe thorn in the flesh of his captors. This came to head in many ways (though this did not mark the end of Bader's "goon baiting" activities) with a speech to other POW warning against fraternisation with the German authorities - this was the event that led to his removal to Lamsdorf and interestingly enough took place in May/June 1942. So, around the time that the Bader Mystery alleges that Bader is in Liverpool, we find Bader causing trouble by inciting his colleagues NOT to co-operate with the Germans.

[edit on 10-3-2008 by SPM.45]

this is a great story! just so frustrating somone out there will no somthing. man im looking forward to it being solved. perhaps a new movie on his life would be made

ATS

Nice to see someone who has an open mind - keep thinking that way and one of these days you will be able to laugh yourself silly when so many of these who try to put me down, themselves crash in a mangled heap!

Best Wishes - te truth will eventually be made known.

UNNOHOO

reply to post by Anonymous ATS


Yes indeed, this is a VERY interesting story that will without a doubt be made nto a new movie on the Enigmatic life of Douglas Bader and the cruxifiction of a brave old man who tried to tell the TRUe story but was shouted down.

Mirage

reply to post by Anonymous ATS


Or, more likely, a tissue of lies that will vanish like the morning mist once the perpetrator finally shuffles off this mortal coil.

reply to post by Anonymous ATS


Hi Ken!

I see nothing here that any film maker would be remotely interested in. A debunked fable put about by a rather rude old man who can't accept any opinion, or proven *fact* that conflicts with his fantasies. Hardly the stuff to wow the box office.

[edit on 15-7-2008 by SPM.45]

reply to post by SPM.45

hang on a minute mate.
Bader is a legend and always will be. No matter what truths come out you cant take away the facts

Having read ALL this thread i am absolutley staggered that it has been allowed to carry on like it has. We have one poster who has repeatedly made one line posts, been abusive, rude and been downright offensive, yet despite repeated warnings by mods he has got away with it. Hes even been rude towards the mods and admin who he claimed are trying to silence him??

Sorry Ken, your comments that we are all tossers and everyone on this website should jump in a lake summed you up. You get NO respect from me and before anyone moans about his age, so what. Respect in all walks of life has been to be earned. If i say im 84 then do i get a free pass to be insulting and rude to anyone who disagrees with me? No i bloody dont. Firstly you welcomed a new witness, then when she didnt say exactly what you hoped you proceeded to insult the poster who had gone to the trouble of finding her. You then said she doesnt exist, then a few posts later you state as a FACT that a witness heard someone else calling himself bader? Which is it? is it FACT as you say, or does she not exist?

If i claim to see a UFO or Elvis or bigfoot tonight, i would get swamped with demands for proof and if i couldnt provide them then my thread would either be labelled hoax or thrown into skunk works. Why is this thread different?

I have NO interest whatsoever in where one man (a hero) was in 1942, whether he was in a POW camp, a liverpool hotel or on the bloody moon. Your story might well be true, although occams razor suggests otherwise. But the rudeness and childishness displayed in this entire thread cheapens ATS and for that alone you should be castigated. Please feel free to accuse me of being someone else, be insulting towards me or even resort to the childish baiting one liners of "DB was in liverpool 42" , you will only prove my point further.

For shame Sir

Expatwhite,

Can you in your wildest dreams imagine that you, knowing FULL well that the truth of what you are saying is so totaly undeniable but you are unable to find that vital corrobrating piece of evidence, how you would react to a mob of mad dogs yapping at your ankles and, being ridiculed and stoned by clever fellows that have no idea of what happened in 1942?

Do you not think you would get just a trifle angry and frustrated? Do you not think you would be inclined to blow your top from time to time?
How would you feel a a group of people kept on ramming down your throat that you are NOT who you claim you are, that your were not born when you KNOW your were?.

I don't want clever fellows jumping up and down telling me I have NO PROOF, I damn well know I have no proof and any INTELLIGENT observer would be able to deduce from my strory that I AM THE FIRST TO ADMIT THIS - and am looking for help to solve the mystery and not clever fellows sarcasm.

There are other people aside from me who know THE FULL STORY of Bader's visit to Liverpool in 1942 and they are more intelligent than I or any forum based clever fellows. However, they have their reasons for keeping this incident under wraps and maybe for ever.

Have you seen the film THE BANK job? If not make a point of doing so and get educated on how MI5 et al and the government can react to stifle something that is not for the publics eyes - this is exactly what is happening with Bader.

Yes go on laugh but, I have have very years to live now and will without doubt not be able to scream from the rooftops, "I TOLD YOU FELLOWS SO!" Whn the truth is out. BUT you who have damged my reputation and health so much will have to pay the price of your public outbursts and ridicule of a sincere, genuine old man who had/has an amazing story to tell.


mod edit: language

[edit on 9-8-2008 by DontTreadOnMe]

Originally posted by Anonymous ATS

I don't want clever fellows jumping up and down telling me I have NO PROOF, I damn well know I have no proof and any INTELLIGENT observer would be able to deduce from my strory that I AM THE FIRST TO ADMIT THIS - and am looking for help to solve the mystery and not clever fellows sarcasm.

There are other people aside from me who know THE FULL STORY of Bader's visit to Liverpool in 1942 and they are more intelligent than I or any forum based clever fellows. However, they have their reasons for keeping this incident under wraps and maybe for ever.
]

Nonsense. You say in one breath that you have no proof and then in the next you blithely state that "there are people who know the full story". This is just another Ken non-sequiter, like the non-existant special Spitfire, the non-existant sealed papers, the non-existant shooting down of a German bomber and all the other flim-flam invented to shore up a 60 year old story of mis-indentification.

Your previous contributions to this board were characterised by vitriol and other unacceptable behaviour and I see this latest contribution has had to be edited by the Mods for further unacceptable content. I suggest you wind your neck in forthwith.



[edit on 11-8-2008 by SPM.45]

Given that my story is true and factual, and there is no argument about that, then it follows that there has to be other people out there that know what happened back in 1942 - and, I would not be at all surprised, WEBPILOT if you are part of that select little group, if you get my drift?

Now please go away, clear your head and attempt to think logically and clearly as your dad, WWII RAF LAC attempted to do.

How are you going to live with yourself, as you now do, when you are finally confronted with the truth of the matter?

May your personal God, help you.

PS If you knew what word the Moderator moderated from my post, you would, if you had a sense of humour, roll all over the floor laughing as I, my wife and friends did! Oh! dear me what has happened to England, is it now controlled by Trappist Monks or something?

Members of this forum may be interested in this very recent news item...

British diplomat urged Nazi peace deal: archives
September 1, 2008 - 6:01AM
Source: ABC
An amateur British diplomat tried to strike a peace deal with Germany just months after World War II began, previously unreleased documents showed on Sunday.

Old Etonian and fascist sympathiser James Lonsdale-Bryans travelled to Italy to try to negotiate a deal through the German ambassador in Rome, Ulrich von Hassell.

He proposed Germany be given a free hand in Europe as long as it agreed to leave Britain's colonial empire untouched.

Files released under the Freedom of Information Act show the Foreign Office knew of the trip but was uneasy about Mr Lonsdale-Bryans' conduct.

"He went to Italy with the knowledge of the Foreign Office in order to develop his contacts. He greatly exceeded his instructions," a note from the security service states.

Mr Lonsdale-Bryans wrote to the then Foreign Secretary Lord Halifax with his plans. The files reveal the secret service was unsure as to how much backing Mr Lonsdale-Bryans, who also explored going to Germany, had from Lord Halifax.

"There is no doubt that Bryans with or without authority from Lord Halifax endeavoured to go to Germany to contact (German foreign minister) Ribbentrop and if possible Hitler himself," one file shows.

In the event, Germany's invasion of France in 1940 radically changed the political climate.

Winston Churchill replaced Neville Chamberlain as prime minister, attitude to appeasers hardened and Lord Halifax was packed off to become Britain's ambassador in Washington.

The Foreign Office became acutely aware of the embarrassment of its association with Mr Lonsdale-Bryans and archive documents suggest he was only spared jail to avoid unwanted revelations.

One Foreign Office letter reads: "Although there seems to be a good deal to be said for locking him up to prevent him airing his views to all and sundry, I understand that if this is done it will inevitably involve his bringing up the question of his contacts with the Foreign Office and the facilities afforded him to go to Italy."

-Reuters


I believe that there is much here that proves what I have always said and that is that ther is much still under wraps to be revealed and here is yet another instant!

My day will come eventuall!

Just a word to the Moderators.

My story of meeting Douglas Bader is TRUE...end of argument.

Many people including misguided Moderators apparently have an opposing view of the cirumstances surrounding the appearance of Bader in Liverpool in 1942 and as a cosequence, it seems, believe it is their duty to ridicule and put down my TRUE expereince.

For example, the other day I posted a copy of a Reuters report of another well kept secret of an attempt to make contact with the Germans during the war, that has only now been released to the public.
I posted this to illustrate that despite what the history books might say, that there are still many instances of similar unreleased information such as my story.

You have the power to ridicule me and to encourage other ignorant people to do likewise and regard me as a silly old man but, let me tell you and your coterie of knockers that the day will come, just when I cannot predict when the Douglas Bader story will be released and you and you band of brothers will have to endure the slings and arrows of ridicule as I have done and will have missed the chance to assist in solving this mystery and not presuming it is rubbish.

I doubt that you will print this as you are so conservative in your methods but at least you will have read it I assume,bilderberg and will remember what I have said when the time comes.

RNM

Stop Press. Bader's passport located. No sign of immigration to the UK in 1942.