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The Douglas Bader Mystery

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posted on Aug, 26 2010 @ 09:38 AM
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I am told that some notebooks belonging to Sir Douglas Bader have recently turned up, apparently written in the 60's or 70's. I wonder if these will shed any light on his imprisonment in Germany?

Meanwhile, a memoir entitled 'Ming Dynasty Spy' has turned up in my inbox. Reading through it again after all this time, I realise that there are some grave errors of fact that certainly cast a great deal of doubt on any prima face acceptance of the memoir.



[edit on 26-8-2010 by SPM.45]




posted on Nov, 9 2010 @ 09:57 AM
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reply to post by SPM.45
 


Hi

New to this forum (Today) and stumbled accross this thread which I have just spent the last couple of hours reading.

The 'information' contained in the posts and replies is nothing short of 'Incredible' and I must admit to finding the whole 'Saga' fascinating on quite a few different levels.

I have one question at this moment which I hope one of the main 'combatants' could answer for me.

Q. Just how 'Famous' was Douglas Bader in 1942

Thank you.in anticipation that this thread is still of some interest



posted on Nov, 12 2010 @ 02:57 AM
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reply to post by captainorange
 


Fair question; and not an entirely easy one to answer. We have to be aware that our modern understanding of fame and celebrity are different to the reality of the 30sand 40s

That said, "fairly" is probably about right. Bader was a celebrated sportsman and display pilot in the early 30s. I'm not sure how much of his wartime service would have been reported but there were certainly reporters waiting for him on his return. His real fame came in the 50s with Reach for the Sky though the book and film of course.

Would the public have been aware of him in the war years? Yes, probably. "Douglas Bader" could have been a nickname for a legless person in the same way that "Stirling Moss" became shorthand for speeding drivers.



posted on Feb, 17 2012 @ 08:43 PM
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Greetings from the hectic past of the Douglas Bader Enigma!

As the writer of the account of Douglas Bader's visit to Liverpool in 1942, I am now into my 89th year and still able to stand up (with a stick) and proudly declare, HE WAS THERE IN 1942, I WAS THERE IN 1942, but where oh! where were my detractors and the ubiquitous SPM 45 in 1942?

My health, predictably, is now pretty poor and my War Service Disabilty Pension is now 70%, however I am still able to live a full life albeit mainly at home with my computer, cameras, SKYPE and my good wife.

Each and every day I scan the newspapers looking for the inevitable release by the British Government of the details as to just what the great Douglas Bader was doing in those heady days in 1942 and in Liverpool at the Stork Hotel.

It is highly unlikely that I will be alive when the truth is out and sadly unable to watch the mountains of egg dripping off the faces of those that belittled me, abused me and attempted to destroy my charater. But not to worry, I will I can ASSURE you, be one day known as the man who was involved in the Douglas Bader Enigma.

If you want to abuse me, feel free I don't worry any more about such silly people but if you can still help me get the truth before I fall off the perch, I welcome your comments.

Best Wishes

Kenneth Williams. ex LSBA Royal Navy 1942-1946, CM/X 111242



posted on Feb, 20 2012 @ 10:00 PM
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What has happened to you SPM45? Have the Ministry of Defence terminated your contract to harrass me and drive me out of the Douglas Bader Enigma arena whilst thinking wrongly, that this old man is/was just a nutter, a fruit cake or a latter day Walter Mitty seeking reflected fame and glory?

Not so old chap, this old man is still capable of defending himself and will fight to his dying day to assert that the Bader Enigma still is the Bader Enigma and one day all will be revealed, wait and see!

The Stork Hotel could tell many strange stories if it were able to rise from its ruins and speak like a human. Whilst I am not a believer in this mythical heaven and, that if it does exist must be very overcrowded but if it does exist and Douglas Bader if you are there, pencil me into your appointment book for a long chat about you know what in the not so distant future.



posted on Feb, 24 2012 @ 06:37 AM
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reply to post by RNmedic1942
 


SOME FOOD FOR THOUGH FOR THINKING PEOPLE REGARDING ALEX ROSS AND 10 HISTORIC DAYS IN JULY 1942 WHEN RATHER THAN BEING IN SOLITARY DOUGLAS BADER WAS IN ENGLAND AND FOR A SHORT TIME AT THE STORK HOTEL IN LIVERPOOL WHERE I WAS INVOLVED WITH HIM.

Ross was the younger son of George and Dolina Ross, of Tain, Ross and Cromarty. He joined the Seaforth Highlanders as a bandsman and medical orderly in the 1930s and, after the outbreak of war, went to France with the 2nd Seaforth’s. When 51st Highland Division, of which his battalion was part, was cut off by the German offensive through northern France and forced to surrender at St Valery in June 1940, he was taken prisoner, having been wounded in the ankle. Despite this, he was obliged to march into captivity until taken into a French hospital in Rouen. He was subsequently allowed to remain there for almost two years, using his medical knowledge to assist the nuns who cared for the injured prisoners of war. But in 1942, he was sent to a prison camp in Lamsdorf, Germany, where he was detailed to look after Wing Commander Bader, beginning a ten-day spell in solitary confinement for trying to escape.

On completion of his period in "solitary", Bader was warned that he was to be moved to Oflag IVC - Colditz Castle in Saxony. Ross offered to accompany him, but Bader told him that it would not be possible as Colditz was a "bad boys' camp". Nonetheless, at four the next morning Ross carried Bader's bags on to a train for the journey. They arrived at Colditz railway station after dark on August 16, 1942, and were marched over the river and through the town up towards the castle. Bader could not manage the steepness of the last part of the cobbled hill, so Ross gave him his hand and pulled him along.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -----------
Please give some thought to what is said in this newspaper article and then put two and two together



posted on Mar, 13 2012 @ 04:01 PM
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Dear, oh dear. Ken, havn't you got better ways to spend your remaining time?

So, nothing new from you then, apart from yet another sidestep - before you were 100% certain Bader visited Liverpool in August, now it seems we are back a month to July.

However, something new from me. I have records of a Red Cross Protecting Power visit to Lamsdorf camp in July 1942 which records W/Cdr Bader in solitary confinement there. So, unless you would like to suggest that the Red Cross were colluding with the Germans - which as we know they never did, it can definitively be said that you did not meet Bader in Liverpool.



posted on Mar, 14 2012 @ 06:55 AM
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Just for the avoidence of any doubt on the latest change to your "indisputable facts"


reply posted on 15-2-2008 @ 02:16 AM by RNM1945
"Bader was in Liverpool in August 1942".


posted on 24-2-2012 @ 06:37 AM by RNmedic1942
"SOME FOOD FOR THOUGH FOR THINKING PEOPLE REGARDING ALEX ROSS AND 10 HISTORIC DAYS IN JULY 1942 WHEN RATHER THAN BEING IN SOLITARY DOUGLAS BADER WAS IN ENGLAND AND FOR A SHORT TIME AT THE STORK HOTEL IN LIVERPOOL WHERE I WAS INVOLVED WITH HIM".



edit on 14-3-2012 by SPM.45 because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 14 2012 @ 07:17 AM
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I only read the OP so forgive me if this has been said.

My grandfather...who is dead now...rarely mentioned the war. However, years ago when the film 'Reach for the sky' came on tv I remember him saying 'that bastard Bader'. When I asked why he said that, he said 'all the prisoners hated him'. It seems that every time he tried to escape all the prisoners were were punished.

edit on 14-3-2012 by midicon because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 14 2012 @ 07:54 AM
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reply to post by midicon
 


Hi Midicon; yes quite true. Bader was not universally loved. Kenneth More recounted how he went to an RAF station as an after dinner speaker after his starring role in Reach for the Sky and was specifically told not to tell stories about Bader as there were several members of the mess that had lost Red Cross parcels and worse while POW due to Bader. Which does rather beg the question of why you would ask someone to speak at your mess that has just portrayed Bader if you knew the audience was hostile to him.

But the point is well made. Bader was a dogmatic, hard headed man who maintained an active hostility towards the German nation through his imprisonment and it is a strong argument against the so-called "Bader Enigma" that he would have anything to do with some scheme that would have him sitting meekly in some dingy Liverpool hotel before returning to captivity.
edit on 14-3-2012 by SPM.45 because: (no reason given)

edit on 14-3-2012 by SPM.45 because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 14 2012 @ 10:32 AM
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reply to post by SPM.45
 

Hi,

My grandfather was a prisoner of war for four years, he was in the same camp as Bader.
And he did mention things like 'red cross parcels' etc...
As a side note he said that most of the deaths in his regiment came from malnutrition and dysentery during the long marches...and not at the hands of the German army.



posted on Mar, 14 2012 @ 10:46 AM
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reply to post by midicon
 


Hi, well, firstly, my great respect to your grandfather. Such men really were 'The Greatest Generation'.

Generally speaking, British POW were relatively well treated in captivity by the German forces. Obviously non-commissioned troops had to work and all prisoners suffered from poor diet and there were instances of torture and execution but the overall death rate in the camps was fairly low, at about 3.5%.

The 'death marches' were one of the worst experiences. It is estimated that, out of about 257,000 Allied POWs, about 80,000 were subject to forced marches in early 1945 with about 3,500 deaths resulting.



posted on Mar, 29 2012 @ 07:59 PM
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reply to post by SPM.45
 


SP45, I just knew that you would be lurking in the undergrowth somewhere reading your Biggles comic books and carving miniature replicas of Spitfires to enable you replay the Battle of Britain in your little fox hole as you are slowly getting older and desparate.

You know what sonny? As Clark Gable once said in a famous movie " I don't give a damn!" any more now about your protestations about some of the truths about world War II, You see, the thing is I was there whilst you in fact could not have been born in 1942 so I guess I have the advantage in that regard. It was for me all real and in 3D whilst all you have sonny in mouldering books written by people who in the main were also not there in those desparate days of do or die.

You make much of the fact that I have said that Bader was in Liverpool in July or in August 1942! Who really cares about the exact time and date? I don't know exactly but someone does and I am now convinced that those that are trying to bury Bader's jaunt to Liverpool in 1942 for much more covert reasons that I am aware of are using you as the one who constantly keeps an eye open for anything I might publish and then proceeds to try and make rubbish of the whole thing.

But sadly for you, you did not have the honour of being involved with Bader and all you can do is to constantly follow me around trying to trip me up. No one including you will ever be able to trip me up because I know what happend but have no idea why and that's a damn sight more than you can boast.

So to you I say, carry on with you balsa wood Sptifires and mouldy books full of mistakes and lies and can I say that whilst I am not a believer in the hereafter, if it does exist and I go there,Douglas Bader will greet me and probably say "Hello, we have a hell of a lot to talk about!"

Keep on taking the pills and best of luck!



posted on Mar, 30 2012 @ 12:52 PM
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Hi Ken,

I've been looking forward to your return, but its a shame you didn't bring anything new to the party.

You protest too much, old thing. If you didn't care, you'd not bother to post. You do, so very obviously, care so very much however much you deny it You've pinned so much of yourself on this and it hurts badly to find out it was all a chimera.

So now we have;

* Bader's postwar MI9 debrief in which the mention of Liverpool, dodgy hotels and young scouse lads helping him strap his legs on are all glaring in their absence.

* The Red Cross report documenting Bader in the cooler in Lamsdorf - just when you allege you met him in Liverpool.


That's two concrete bits of sold, irrefutable evidence against your fantasy. What have you got - apart from the usual bluster and snide comments?

Do get back to me when you can answer that question.. Yes, i know, YOU WERE THERE. Well, so what. People get things wrong, people mix things up, people get told things that aren't true. Being there means diddly squat otherwise we'd never need to question any eye witness account, but guess what - eye witnesses aren't 100% accurate.

So - the Red Cross and MI9 both trump your BEING THERE. Bad luck old boy, but that's just the way it is.

Funny how the dates are not important any more - not now that they blow your fantasy apart (again). But let's backtrack. Who made the dates an issue? Why - Ken Williams in his story about meeting a guy that was seen in Germany by hundreds of other witnesses who all back one another up. You made the rod for your own back with the dates - and then changing them when you realised you'd just bashed another great hole in your own story. As much as you would like to be able to say you havn't tripped up, well, yes you have and you know it. I know you'll never admit it, but who cares? The truth will out and it has. MI9 and the Red Cross, Ken old bean, MI9 and the Red Cross. They both tripped you up.
edit on 30-3-2012 by SPM.45 because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 30 2012 @ 07:13 PM
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reply to post by SPM.45
 


Oh! dearie me SPM45 I think you have just been hung by your own Petard as the saying goes and if I ever had the tiniest thought of we two joining forces not to prove why I am wrong, but that I COULD be right and in fact AM right! Such a propostiton is now preposterous to say the least.

You now triumphantly put a great deal of emphasis on telling me and all the world at large that the International Red Cross visited Lamsdorf and confimed that old Doug was indeed in solitary confinement...YES! of course he was on the day they vistited and saw him but whar about the other 9 nines days he was alleged to have been confined? Come on old chap I thought you had more powers of reasoning than that, but it just proves to everyone who read these exchanges that all you have to rely on are "official" reports and accounts of the history of Douglas Bader according to what you want to believe and not what are the facts!

What you are now saying is that.the International Red Cross had someone stay and observe Bader for his whole alleged 10 days in the cooler!! Get real my boy and also ask yourself why the IRC did not question the Germans at Lamsdorf about what the Hell was an officer doing being held in an "other ranks" prison camp?

Just spend more time listening to what I, as a participant have to say and not what others have written with no real experience on the actual facts.

Here is another morsel from part one of the NANA articled by Bader just for the benefit of members of this website and poor old APM45 who needs to take a grip on himself and look at facts and not fiction.

Wanted to Operate

When the artificial leg came off in the plane, I had badly bruised my own bit of leg, which had in a very limited area produce a large swelling like a tennis ball. The German doctor seemed to want to operate on me.

The last thing I wanted was anybody, particularly a German doctor, playing around with what was left of my legs, since they had been extremely well amputated in the beginning. The thought of this fellow leaving a scar which probably would cause endless trouble in the future loomed largely in my mind.

I suppose I was not exactly normal, because I demanded a letter form and wrote to my wife, asking her to arrange to have me repatriated quickly, since I feared for my legs, or what remained of them.
In my complete ignorance I imagined that my letter would take about three or four days to get home instead of the odd month or two, as, in fact was the case.

End of Exract

Sorry mate but it's back to the Frog spitfire kits for you once more!

You must not stop taking the tablets.
edit on 30/3/12 by RNmedic1942 because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 30 2012 @ 08:18 PM
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reply to post by SPM.45
 


With reference to APM45's comments reagarding Bader's hatred of the Germans and why this also blows my story out of the water, I submit the following...

Here is a quotation written by Douglas Bader himself airing his views on the Luftwaffe pilots during World War II.

“I am deliberately not mentioning the names of German Pilots, although I know them, because I have no wish to belittle a nation which has proved itself to possess brave and competent fighting men, even though they were fighting for such an evil ideology”

That will give those bombed during the Blitz a really warm glow!

This quote hardly reinforces the view of the APM 45 comment that Bader loathed and despised Germans and is from one of Badre's 12 NANA articles written at the end of the war. (I am sure you will have all these apm45?). A complete set of these articles reside in all their glory on my computer hard drive and are very illuminating on the life, times, and some of the foolish pranks of the late Douglas Bader.

I am submitting another extract from part one of the Bader NANA (North American Newspaper Alliance) articles December 3rd 1945 that indicates how Bader felt about his legs badly damaged in his shooting down and what he wanted to do about the situation. Interested readers should look up Hoppy Hodgkinson another WWII legless pilot with flaming red hair and an almost identical story apart from refusing to try to ecape knowing he would be a burden to other escapees. Makes VERY ineresting reading APM45,and in particular what he did with new legs dropped by parachute for him also,,,He threw them away as useless but then of course you would have read about hime for sure!


War is Hel!
edit on 30/3/12 by RNmedic1942 because: Adding more Information



posted on Mar, 30 2012 @ 11:59 PM
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So much for not caring then. Ken, how can anyone take you seriously wheyn you constantly contradict yourself. So, nothing new here. Bader was not the only RAF officer at lamsdorf at this time - Pilot Officer Chisholm is documented there in june 42, for example, so no mystery there. Yes, Bader respected individual germans especially pilots but remained implacably at war with them as a nation. Again, no mystery or anything strange there and nothing that hasn't been said before. Bader continued his fight against Germany in any way he could which is not at odds with respecting individuals.

The story of hodgkinson is well known and is a strawman. While superficially similar, it has no bearing on what happened to bader. Different man different time different places - nothing to do with bader.

Its all very well to post this stuff from nana but how is that any different to quoting mi9 or irc. Yet another ken contradiction.

So in essence we still have two official reports from different places - independent verification - that place bader in germany. Now do the reasoning yourself ken and open your mind. You were told a man that bore no resemblence to bader was he and accepted it because you had no reason not to. That is not verification but hearsay. You never had independent verification of the mans identity from his own mouth at the time. So being there doesn't really add much and given that not one single other witness or report gives even a hint of support for your story. Now its all very well to discount official reports as we all know officialdom has its own agendas but when one gets various reports from different places that begin to form a coherent picture then we have to start giving some weight to the story they tell. This is logical. If there were other accounts emerging to counter that position then one would reassess but in all your years of searching not one has come out, nor even a suggestion. All you ever found were some shadows- that ross helped bader in colditz for example but none of these were ever in any way suggestive of anything other than some parts of the Bader legend were mythologised. So on balance theres little reason to discount the official reports.

Then we have another report from another witness that says the legless man was not bader. Now this report needs treating with care as it is unverified. But still it is there and could be followed up to be checked.

Being a "participant" is all very well but in fact you were little more than a bystander. You had no involvement with this man's travel to the hotel, neither did you witness his arrival or departure. You were not party to any conversation or correspondence that the hotel management had with the man or any other party. So really to say you were a participant is rather to overegg the pudding. You may have been around but you cannot add anything more substantive than an unsupported name. That is hardly a strong line as a witness and so its right to give other sources greater credence. You will continue to insist you are right but ignoring all the obsfurcation of nana etc what can you really add as a "participant"? "Someone told me"? Hardly a gold plated contribution even you must admit!

Then we have all the made up stuff to consider. The "special spitfire" converted for bader you cited here (again something that no one else ever mentioned!) and the things in your account that are misplaced or wrongly attributed. This all adds to the picture of your account being flawed and thus gives credence to the liklihood that the "official line" actually being true. Feel free to question the red cross report or that of MI9 but they are real, material cannot be discounted and they all are parts of the jigsaw. Did bader write to thelma to say "get me home"? Even if the letter is genuine w t what does it really add? In the early days of captivity it tells us bader was worried about his legs and desperate. Is that really so very surprising to you?
edit on 31-3-2012 by SPM.45 because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 31 2012 @ 03:50 AM
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I guess that because there is a thriving tourist industry based on the so called Loch Ness Monster, that in your simplistic way of thinking,then the Loch Ness Monster does in fact and must exist because it is written.

I guess you would then also believe in Santa Claus and no doubt the tooth fairy, that the Moon is made of cheese and that the Sun actually rises in the morning and sets in the evening?

May I remind you that I have written many times that when Douglas Bader visted Austrlalia many years ago, I phoned him at his hotel and asked him simply, "Do you remember being at the Stork Hotel in Liverpool in 1942?" to which question he repilied "Yes I do!" Now, my wife who was with me at the time heard the converstaion and can on oath testify that this happened as I have just related so how are you going to dispute that?

Now, before you have the temerity to make any new comments on my experience with Bader, anything further that you say and what you have already said, will be regarded as pure envy as a simple minded wannabe uinless as I have done, you are prepared to identify yourself and your location, otherwise, you are nothing but a cowardly village idiot or the like.

I am still looking for concrete evidence to verify my experience so if anyone can help I will welcome you.
Now go away and play with your models.



posted on Mar, 31 2012 @ 04:04 AM
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Well you know what they say about people who can't argue their case without resorting to insults.

Loch ness monster. Exactly the same as your fantasy really. Only in your case theres only one person claiming to have seen it!

I've discussed your so called verifying phone call before and according to your own account baderwas abrupt with you and put the phone down. We have no way of knowing for sure but we do know bader met met carry on actor kenneth Williams so he could have thought you were he or he could just have been brushing you off. Either way it hardly adds much credence to your tale. Its obviously been enough to reinforce your fantasy but given the total lack of any other corroborative evidence the weight of probability says bader wasn't agreeing with you. To you "stork hotel" has a special meaning, but you've no idea what bader understood from your question. Did he hear kenneth williams and liverpool, just kenneth williams or did he just dismiss you as some nuisance caller? So you can see the call can't be taken at face value. You know this even though you hate to admit it to yourself.

What we have is nothing new from you other than changes to your story as you get caught out and a growing pile of verifiable and material evidence that calls you out. Wriggle all you want but MI9 and the IRC areauthorative sources and they trump your slight status of "participation.
edit on 31-3-2012 by SPM.45 because: (no reason given)

edit on 31-3-2012 by SPM.45 because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 31 2012 @ 06:05 AM
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When you are prepared to reveal who you are, where you come from and the reasons for your obsession over many years of being entirely negative in your approach to what will one day be revealed as one of the greatest conspiracies of World War II, then and only then will you be worthy of further responses from me and, I believe that all thinking members of this forum will agree with what I am saying.

Meanwhile tell whomever is paying you to stalk me that your/their strategy will not work with this old man!

Oh! the things that I could tell you........

PS And Bader is spelt with a capital B, thought you would know that?...

And in parting, I can only assume that you are now so confused that in the follwing quote from your last post you are now apparantly accusing Bader himself of lying when you question if he actually wrote to Thelma and was the letter genuine! Tell me what letter are you reffering to and do you now also question Bader's 12 part series of articles for NANA ? What next indeed! I suppose you DO believe in Angels flying around with impossible wing configurations?

You said this about the late great Douglas,

..".Did bader write to thelma to say "get me home"? Even if the letter is genuine w t what does it really add? In the early days of captivity it tells us bader was worried about his legs and desperate. Is that really so very surprising to you?"

You tell me, you know it all!


edit on 31/3/12 by RNmedic1942 because: Clarification



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