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The Douglas Bader Mystery

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posted on Feb, 15 2008 @ 12:51 AM
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Kenneth Williams

Thank you very much for your rude reply.

Nothing here makes me any different from any other forum-user so I have every right to publish here whatever I like (providing it complies to the forum-rules), and even more so my point of view about something. So no! I won't go and play somewhere else!

Apparently I know a great deal more about the Bader inigma than you do.

Kind regards
Peter




posted on Feb, 15 2008 @ 02:06 AM
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reply to post by RNM1945
 


Ken, Peter doesn't need to read your tale as the facts that undermine it are clear. When all is said and done, your story was nothing more than your fantasies based on your assumption that a man with no legs = Bader.

[edit on 15-2-2008 by SPM.45]



posted on Feb, 15 2008 @ 02:16 AM
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It is patently clear that Peter Garner, SPM 45 and WEBPILOT are one and the same misguided person!

Bring on Ruby!

Bader was in Liverpool in August 1942.



posted on Feb, 15 2008 @ 02:20 AM
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reply to post by Peter Garner
 


It is possible that you may know more than I about the Bader Inigma but you just proved to all and sundry that you still know nothing whatsoever about the Bader Enigma!!!

Give it some thought old chap.

KW



posted on Feb, 15 2008 @ 02:35 AM
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reply to post by RNM1945
 


Just how is this "patently clear", Ken? Someone that disagress with you = SPM45? Like so many of your utterances this is assumption based on nothing.

You earlier assured the mods you would cease your abusive and insulting ways and would discuss only the issues at hand. Please stick to your promise



posted on Feb, 15 2008 @ 02:45 AM
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Originally posted by RNM1945

It is patently clear that Peter Garner, SPM 45 and WEBPILOT are one and the same misguided person!


Just because we have the same point of view doesn't mean that we're one and the same person. But just for the record: I am Peter Davies-Garner, I was born on December 21st 1960 in Driffield, England. I have a twin brother called Christopher and an elder sister, Maureen. I live in Germany, I am married and father of three sons.

The only thing I have in common with Webpilot and SPM45 is the same opinion about the Bader enigma.

Kind regards
Peter

[edit on 15-2-2008 by Peter Garner]



posted on Feb, 15 2008 @ 02:53 AM
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reply to post by SPM.45
 




Douglas Bader was in Liverpool during part of August 1942.



posted on Feb, 15 2008 @ 03:04 AM
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reply to post by Peter Garner
 



For one who has admitted that he knows very little about Douglas Bader I must congratulate you on the speed with which you have assimilated all your knowledge of my three years of research. Your lightning fast likeness of mind with SPM 45 is also fascinating as is how you both seem to log on to the Forum almost at the same times!

I do hope that you and your family are enjoying life in Germany - some of my best friends are German.

Danke

KW



posted on Feb, 15 2008 @ 03:46 AM
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reply to post by RNM1945
 


Ken,

by your own admission your research garnered no evidence. It doesn't take long to review nothing!

SPM.45



posted on Feb, 15 2008 @ 03:59 AM
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reply to post by Peter Garner
 


Perhaps you should investigate the inner workings of the German Command Authority a little more closely.

Let's face it, by August 1942 there had already been one deluded "peace attempt" from a high-ranking German.

That's before you even get into exactly who was keeping Hitler aware of what and to what end.

While my research into Bader hasn't been a great deal deeper than yours (except that I have read some specific commentary about Bader), at least I'm not assuming my knowledge of the man makes him two-dimensional.

Would he have accommodated the Germans? Probably not, based on what I know. But what if he was put "on his honour"? Bader was an upper middle-class (to upper-class) Pom. A species that (then) referred to itself as "gentlemen". Gentlemen were expected to be "men of their word", amongst other so-called virtues.

I'm sure that, at the very least, it would be fascinating to listen to a "gentleman" such as Bader rationalise his deliberate breaking of his word, should he have chosen to stay in the UK instead of returning to the Third Reich (assuming this whole tale is true).

Remember, it was just such an English gentleman who was reported as saying, after his cavalry unit was decimated in the Western Desert and he was captured, that "it's not cricket to use anti-aricraft guns against tanks".



posted on Feb, 15 2008 @ 04:08 AM
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reply to post by SPM.45
 


Douglas Bader was in Liverpool during August 1942 and a guest of the MI safe house, The Stork Hotel.

KW



posted on Feb, 15 2008 @ 04:23 AM
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reply to post by SPM.45
 


Where are Ruby and The Man rrom The Planet of The Apes???




posted on Feb, 15 2008 @ 02:49 PM
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Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV
reply to post by Peter Garner
 

Would he have accommodated the Germans? Probably not, based on what I know. But what if he was put "on his honour"? Bader was an upper middle-class (to upper-class) Pom. A species that (then) referred to itself as "gentlemen". Gentlemen were expected to be "men of their word", amongst other so-called virtues.


You can't be serious! Are you trying to tell us that the reason for Bader returning to Germany (and inprisonment) was because he gave the Germans his word? Can you imagine what yet a greater hero he would have been if he had fooled the germans and consequently escaped captivity and returned to England? You seriously believe instead he elected to carry out his mission in England (whatever it was) and then return to Colditz BECAUSE HE GAVE THE GERMANS HIS WORD? This is ridiculous! What a mighty clean war the british must have fought! If every british serviceman had had this attitude there wouldn't have been Gomorra, there wouldn't have been Dresden and there probably wouldn't have been VE-Day either! A very strange attitude indeed in which bombing civilians is tolerable but breaking ones word (given to the enemy!) is not!

What do you think Bader's superiors would have said about this? "Oh, it won't be gentleman-like for him to stay - he must go back!" This is hilerious! Do you think Churchill knew about all this? If this whole thing is true, then he surely did. Imagine those two in a quiet room at no. 10 with Churchill persuading Bader to stay, but after a long and emotional conversation Churchill said: "If you feel you need to go back, boy, then go!" Unbelievable!


I don't see that there is any need for me to research the infrastructure of the german high-command in greater detail than I've already done. If you feel there is, that is fine with me; I feel there isn't and I guess that is fine with you.
Yes, the high-ranking authority you mentioned, proved to be a failure and british intelligence called him "a disapointment" (Stellvertreter des Führers Rudolf Heß). It is most likely that Heß planned and carried out his mission in complete solitary. The Nazis believed that his Adjutant was informed of Heß' plans and consequently he was held in a concentration camp until the end of the war. Precisely the same fate that would have been in store for any high-ranking authority granting a POW permission to return to his home country on whatever kind of mission without the Führer's approval.

Peter

[edit on 15-2-2008 by Peter Garner]



posted on Feb, 15 2008 @ 04:38 PM
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Gentlemen,

It is very satisying to see some vigorous and sensible discussion taking place brought about by my account of meeting Bader in Liverpool in 1942.

However, may I suggest that in the three or more years that my story has been on the net and discussed by many thousands of mainly for and the few against my story commentators, that literally hundreds of scenarios have been presented to me as why Bader made this historic brief return.

I have published most of these but have supppressed a number for reasons that I will not go into at this time.

If you have read the autobiography of the other less known and publicised WWII legless pilot, Colin "Hoppy" Hodgkinson who was in many ways a carbon copy of Douglas Bader, you will begin to understand the problems associated with the repair and replacement of damaged artifiical limbs in a enemy country in a time of violent war.

Colin also had a spare leg made in England and dropped by parachute but due to the fact that he was not measured correctly or the new leg fitted by the makers and "tuned in" he found his new leg completely useless and in his own words he "Threw it away."

Colin's book is very hard to find, but if a comparison of the mindsets of Colin and Douglas are of interest and believe me, they are, you will find his book fascinating and most revealing. Colin was by the way eventually repatriated back to England and interestingly, via Liverpool!

Before anyone can get really get involved in fruitful discussion on the pros and cons of this matter it is an obvious requirement that you believe that Bader visited Liverpool when I claim he did, and then consider the reasons I now believe to be why he came, simply for attention to his devastated articifial limbs.

I may be totally wrong in my suggested reason for his visit but in view of a surprising comment received recently and confidentially, I would bet heavily that new legs were the reason he came back - any other possible covert activities that he may or may not have been involved in are not for me to speculate upon or promote.

However, there is an outstanding closed file on Douglas Bader that still may have 20 or more years to go. Then of course you will probably know that some information on various subjects is so sensitive that it is "Never to be Released."

You can rest assured however, that my account of meeting Bader in 1942 is fully authentic and I will never be forced or persuaded to change my story by antagonistic detractors intent upon putting me down for reasons best known to themselves that they are unable or unwilling to elucidate.

Good Luck with your debates

Kenneth Williams



posted on Feb, 16 2008 @ 07:53 AM
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Originally posted by RNM1945

Before anyone can get really get involved in fruitful discussion on the pros and cons of this matter it is an obvious requirement that you believe that Bader visited Liverpool when I claim he did, and then consider the reasons I now believe to be why he came, simply for attention to his devastated articifial limbs.


I can assure you that a nation that could design and build aircraft like the Me 262; the Me 163, the Arado 234, the V1 and the V2 and the rest would have definatly been able to produce a set of tin legs for Bader. And if not: then wheel him around in a wheelchair. How stupid do you think the germans were?


Originally posted by RNM1945

Good Luck with your debates

Danke

Peter Davies-Garner



posted on Feb, 16 2008 @ 05:21 PM
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reply to post by Peter Garner
 


Like I said, some of my best friends are German and, I also own a LOEWE Television set.

Many years ago I sold medical equipment for the German company SIEMENS that included some early Pacemakers but regretfully no artificial limbs of any kind!

But as someone once said "You can't win them all"

Auf Wiedersehne

KW



posted on Feb, 17 2008 @ 10:23 AM
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Interesting thread just finished reading the whole thing, If Bader did indeed return to the UK in 1942, what was his task, much has been said of Bader being arrogant and rude, he was also fanatical in his hate of Germans.
My father was on set of the 1969 film Battle of Britain, and got the chance to talk to some of the former pilots on set, these included Ginger Lacey, Bob Stanford Tuck, Hamish Mahaddie, Douglas Bader, Adolf Galland and Mackie Steinhoff. He observered that although Bader spoke to Galland briefly he seemed not wish to speak at length and was overheard on seeing one of the spanish 109's pass over with swastika and crosses "look at that F*****g thing over my country".
What does the above story prove nothing with regard to him being in Liverpool in mid 1942, but that he had a very strong dislike of the German's (don't forget his father died from wounds received during the first world war ) which remained till later in his life. So would he be the man to act as some form as emissary for a secret deal to make peace with Germany, I personally doubt it.
Would he be back here in Liverpool getting new legs fitted ?, personally I would have thought it would have been just as simple to take him to the German Embassy in Switzerland and have the suitable doctors come from the British embassy to take measurements or fit check the fitting of the leg, rather than the Germans releasing Bader on a gentlemans word to return. I personally think this story is just that.



posted on Feb, 17 2008 @ 05:38 PM
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reply to post by womblesrus
 


You are just one of the hundreds who suddenly pop up and after reading the tiniest morsels of information about the complex Bader Enigma then believe you are competent enough to postulate on what you have decided could or could not have happened.

You say your father was present on the set of the film,"The Battle of Britain" and heard some remarks made by Bader about mock German aircraft flying around. I was acutally an unwilling participant in the REAL Battle of Britain and had to put up with the REAL German Luftwaffe and heard thousands of "rude" words shouted at these planes.

As for Bader's dislike of the Germans you may be on the wrong track here.

Despite his often reported overt demonstrations of contempt for the Germans he was often their, and Adolf Gallands guest at Luftwaffe officers mess parties including the one reported in TIME magazine in 1941 with an account of Bader perfoming somersaults for his hosts. I and many othere, also believe that Bader had the greatest respect for the enemy in the true and long gone once British stiff upper lip tradition.

Then you should also look for information on the Galland/Bader post war world wide lecture tours designed to provide an interesting insight into two opposing camps.

You are of course entitled to your views as am I, but if you wish to discuss seriously my story it would be a good idea to delve into it more deeply and consider all of it's nuances.

Cheers

KW



posted on Feb, 18 2008 @ 12:10 AM
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reply to post by Peter Garner
 


Do try reading before you post. There's a good chap.



posted on Feb, 18 2008 @ 12:29 AM
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Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV
reply to post by Peter Garner
 


Do try reading before you post. There's a good chap.



If something in your post didn't come across the way it was meant to, why don't you clarify?

[edit on 18-2-2008 by Peter Garner]



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