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The Douglas Bader Mystery

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posted on Apr, 2 2012 @ 03:20 AM
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That's your lamest response yet. Yesterday morning you said your memoirs were "complete" now they're a "work in progress". A 180 degree swing round in less than 24 hours. Remarkable!

So what happened to those land battles across the chan nel in 1943 or the US troops swarming in the Liverpool streets in February 1942. Who needs to do anything against you when you do it all yourself!!

This talk of sub texts again is yet another smokescreen. You have no evidence beyond your own (flawed) recollections, so how can you know there is any sub text? Nonsense.




posted on Apr, 2 2012 @ 04:51 AM
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Is it possible that the ageing stalker has finally decided he is fighting a losing battle as no one it would seem is prepared to support his one man battle against a very proud and determind old survivor who, once more can only say,Bader was there, I was there and the stalker was not yet even an embryo! I can say no more and know full well that the Bader story will one day break out.

Are there any genuine interested thinkers out there who would like some serious dialogue?



posted on Apr, 2 2012 @ 05:13 AM
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Originally posted by SPM.45

!

So what happened to those land battles across the chan nel in 1943 or the US troops swarming in the Liverpool streets in February 1942. Who needs to do anything against you when you do it all yourself!!

Land Battles? Wot Land Battles are you on about?

US troops swarming in Liverpool streets in February 1942? You just really cannot read it seems. I started work at the Stork in February 1942 and saw none of your maufactured US Troops at that time, I left the Stork in Novmenber 1942 by which time I had made a small fortune in handsome tips from the swarms of US troops swarming in the Stork Lounge.

I mention this so that others can see how you have changed and manipulated times and dates to suit your kinky attempts to make me look silly! Get my facts and dates right before accusing me of failing to do so sonny.



posted on Apr, 2 2012 @ 06:17 AM
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You are just spinning your wheels now Ken. You've admitted that your memoirs are not accurate (work in progress my foot) so all this other nonsense is just you blindly hitting out the only way you know how. How does it feel to score such a resounding own goal?!

Let's just see what you said about those US troops -

"February 1942 and the war went on. More and more American military were seen regularly around Liverpool..."

So, given that the first US troops to arrive in the UK landed in Belfast in May - just who were these Americans in February?

Or is that a work in progress too?

I can't say I see a host of people standing up for your wild theories - unsurprisingly as you've bored every one to death with this nonsense.




edit on 2-4-2012 by SPM.45 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 2 2012 @ 06:40 AM
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reply to post by SPM.45
 


It seems that the Stalker does not have a job and spends all his time stalking on the net or he has a job and is cheating on his boss, a more likely scenario.

It is not my copy of the Bader Enigma mate that is confused, the fact is that you are using obsolete information and no one will argue except you, that I am not entitled to revise, update and make corrections to typos and other errors if found, you know what I mean, E&OE, nothing snide about that, just your way of thinking.

Udated data is not as you seem to think not allowed so get real and wake up.



posted on Apr, 2 2012 @ 06:48 AM
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reply to post by RNmedic1942
 


But your memoirs at the ANL are complete, you said so yourself. :-)

So your memoirs are incorrect - on yet another issue.

Has it dawned yet how unreliable this all makes you look? How can anyone take anything from you at face value, in the sure knowledge that its all a "work in progress" and liable to be changed as soon as it dawns that you've got it wrong again?



posted on Apr, 2 2012 @ 08:05 AM
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What fantastic thread!

Years of argument and insults passing back and forth it has been an entertaining read this morning that's for sure.

RNMedic - thanks for your wartime service and interesting to read your memories. I truly believe you are certain you met D Bader in 1942 and obviously owing to the circumstances it is damn near impossible to prove otherwise. The nature of your tenure at the Spire hotel and the purpose you say it was used for certainly adds to the possibility you met the man as claimed. I would also hasten to add although the probability is low that it could well have been a man using a code name - for what purpose I could not say.

To Smp (sorry if i got your sn wrong): After YEARS of arguing with the war vet is it not time to let it drop and agree to differ? If RN is an 89 year old war vet calling him out on stuff that you perceive as inconsistencies is surely no longer beneficial to anyone.

To both there seems to be no definitive answer to this conundrum, certainly no way of proving anything beyond a shadow of a doubt. Hope you don't mind me dropping my pennys worth in. It certainly has been an interesting read.



posted on Apr, 2 2012 @ 08:10 AM
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And for the sake of interest RN some questions to further the discussion:

1. How long roughly was Bader there? Can you recall?

2. Did he stay in the hotel or go out from memory?

3. When you attended him how long did it take to get his legs attached?

4. Did he have visitors? Was he the subject of gossip between other employees?

5. Did he take meals in private or in a communal dining room?

I know this 70 years ago but any fleshing out of the story that I might have missed would be cool to read.



posted on Apr, 2 2012 @ 08:31 AM
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Oh! for goodess sake get over your bitterness that you were not born during WWII and therefore don't have a raft of medals to polish every day or a set of experiences that you would never have forgotten. All you have are the writings of others that you accept without query so ,long as they meet your criteria and weird agenda, plus a shed full of Biggles comic books and a framed photo of yourself in uncles borrowed antique Home Guard outfit.

If you believe that my updated (work in progress) memoirs represent an own goal or even a foul, then that is your privelige and good luck to all who sail in you. You and that guy from the Channel Islands that you are fond of have tried to make my memoir a joke with your changes to times, dates and events but again, a Petard has come in to play because the corrected version has removed all your interferences and taken care of all errors of spelling and simple typo errors and all your unauthorised changes. It also has totted up the total number of words for me and I have 6 bound master copies that can be read as a book that have been distributed to family members..

The fact that all this has been done makes no dfiference whatsover to the authenticity of The Bader Enigma or indeed to the whole narrative. In fact many things have been improved or added such as photographs, copies of documents and a copy of a war artists watercolour of the Collosus taking aboard rescue team members with the aid a of Breeches buoy I thnk it is called. When you can stop stalking for a hour or so so go to The British War Museum and ask to see it, it's very graphic

There seems little point now in you stalking me any further because you have fired all you guns without any succes and are now out of ammo and what I really came here for was to find someone with enough intelligence to make further attempts to get to the bottom of this mystery. So why don't you do the right thing for once in your life and shuffle off and leave me to talk to open minded people about this matter.

Have a nice day and do keep taking the medcation.



posted on Apr, 2 2012 @ 08:38 AM
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reply to post by spacedonk
 


Many thanks for your ray of sunshine and some considered comments. Look I have to go to bed now it is very late here in Australia and I promise I will answer you list of questions tomorrow...But don't be suprised if the Stalker gets in first for his rant and rave! He just cannot help himself!

Best wishes

Kennet Williams



posted on Apr, 2 2012 @ 02:03 PM
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reply to post by spacedonk
 


You are of course right that there is little chance of convincing a zealot like ken Williams of the low Probability of this having occurred. I agree it's a fascinating thread but is it time to leave this story teller alone? Well look who ressurected this thread!

Now despite the allegations coming from down under I'm an open minded and reasonable person if sceptical in general about conspiracies. I tend to favour occams razor - once you have eliminated the impossible whatever is left must be the truth. You've seen the points made so no need to reiterate in detail but I'd be interested in your thoughts on some of the facts

I find ken Williams shuffling of facts suspicious. He has moved his dates about as facts conspired to make earlier versions impossible. Call it work in progress if you like but if his recollections are so strong then why need to reinvent? The descriptions of Bader are inconsistent too. Ken originally told of his man walking with sticks. Bader never did. So we have an unreliable description, unreliable dating. On the other hand there are numerous authoritative reports that show Bader in Germany. Ken loves to discount anything that disagrees with his fixed ideas, but they are what they are and they are what they are. They do not give a full answer, but what could? Occam seems to be pretty clear to me!

Despite Kens attempts to shout down debate - i'd be genuinely interested to hear your view on the evidence both ways.
edit on 2-4-2012 by SPM.45 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 2 2012 @ 02:08 PM
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reply to post by RNmedic1942
 


Oh dear ken. You do love to make your little juvenile assumptions. Well it makes little difference as they don't obscure the facts. Now let's talk about running out of ammo. What have you ever found? Nothing. Yet the evidence against you keeps on coming, and there will be more I have no doubt and of course we now know your recall of fact is beyond poor. Keep on trying to cover it up as a work in progress but we all know you've really put your foot in your mouth. The level of rhetoric from you always go up when you know you've screwed up again. And here we go again! It's very funny to watch so do keep it up!

So lets get this crystal clear. When you wrote that you remembered American troops in Liverpool in Feb 1942 and battle on the other side of the channel, you are now saying that you remembered that wrong and you've now corrected that in the latest version of your story. So what else have you misremembered?
edit on 2-4-2012 by SPM.45 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 2 2012 @ 05:13 PM
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Originally posted by SPM.45
reply to post by spacedonk
 


favour occams razor

Occam seems to be pretty clear to me!

i'd be genuinely interested to hear your view on the evidence both ways.
edit on 2-4-2012 by SPM.45 because: (no reason given)


I absolutely 100% agree with the sentiment you present. It is most likely beyond the realms of probability that the Douglas Bader was there. I do not think it impossible however. I just think we are batting sub 3% or somewhere close.

My hypothesis is that the remembered meeting was with someone real. If the Spire hotel was being used by the intelligence division for whatever nefarious reasons it is entirely possible that the chap known as Bader was an alias. Going back to Occams I think it most likely that the following is the case:

1. A real person was attended by Ken at the hotel who needed assistance due to double leg amputation.
2. That person was called Bader to Ken by superiors or by the man himself
3. Ken BELIEVED him to be Douglas Bader

With those things in mind we can say almost 100% accurately that a man being called Bader was at the hotel Jul/Aug 1942 and was attended to by Ken for the duration of his stay.

The obvious issue with these facts is that Ken believes that the man was the famous celebrated pilot Douglas Bader himself. The evidence points distinctly to this not being possible let alone probable.

1. Beyond doubt Bader is in Germany at points of time within the months of July/August 1942 he is publicly seen repeatedly seen at the pre Colditz POW camp.
2. He is feted by both sides of the conflict and given respect as a pilot of the highest order.
3. He tries repeatedly to escape
4. His 'Lackey' (Ross I believe) is present
5. He is placed into solitary confinement for 10 days
6. A red cross report states that he was noted as being in solitary by an attendee who visited him there.

So Occams says our man is in Germany when he was supposed to be have been seen in Liverpool.

However, life is not always that straight forward, mostly but not always. Therefore we have Ken who is adamant that he saw and attended to BAder for a short period of time and there is a window of opportunity when Bader was not in the main population of the POW camp that he could technically have been anywhere, including Liverpool and back to meet the redcross/ British intelligence officer
).

I can see where you feel the story has been changed to fit the facts but we are talking about an event that took place 70 years ago and to be fair the main point has never changed that DB was at the Spire when Ken was. This itself is a 60 year old memory at the outset if we accept that Ken was around 80 years when his website was first brought into the public domain. Ken by any standards is an old man and the passage of time plays cruel tricks on individuals, memories that were once sharp can and do dwindle and lines blur over things we were so certain of before. This is not to say Ken is making things up to fit, it is more to my mind that he has a memory he is certain of and that the passage of time leads him to be less certain of the minutiae. For example I can tell you of a thousand memories of meeting people for the first time but would have great difficulty in most places giving you the right year let alone month and i am not yet 40.

Therefore to reiterate what I have rambled about above. Yes Ken saw a man he believed to be Douglas Bader in Liverpool in the Summer of 1942, sadly for Ken the evidence appears to rule out this being THE Douglas Bader but not absolutely, not by a long shot. I lean towards the codename/alias theory but we cannot say for sure this is the case and from the evidence available.

Interested to hear more from Ken and yourself. I'd appreciate less aggressive conversations between you but after 8 years or so I don't hold much hope either can control your emotions




edit on 2-4-2012 by spacedonk because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 2 2012 @ 05:33 PM
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reply to post by spacedonk
 


Good post Don't forget also the mi9 debrief of Bader immediately after his liberation from colditz. This was a confidential debrief. Intelligence operatives in 1945 would certainly been interested in baders sojourn out of the camp, had it happened and I dare say in 1942 also. However there is no such debrief in 1942 and the 1945 debrief which I have read makes absolutely no mention of Liverpool or any return to the uk in 1942 Bader does go into detail about his various escapes and the help he received and also provide detail on the camps and staff but the debrief describes a journey straight from lamsdoff to colditz

I appreciate not everything is written down or may be redacted but bader
wasn't the type to stay quiet. I am 100% certain that if bader had been back to the uk in 42 he would have reported on it at the appropriate time. And he didn't.
edit on 2-4-2012 by SPM.45 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 2 2012 @ 05:51 PM
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reply to post by spacedonk
 


Good post and I agree with most of what you have summed up well. I'm sure there was a leg less man at the stork at some time that ken met. Im equally sure it wasnt wing commander drs bader For some reason ken was led to believe it was Bader - the older staff playing a joke on the lad, whatever. I think ken has been confused over dates and as you rightly suggest at this distance it's unsurprising. He's then manipulated his story to fit. I suspect ken has spent the years since telling people the story and is too proud to say he was mistaken after so long. then we get all the inventions about sub texts and mi5 and so on which have never had any basis in fact, like the alleged sealed 100 year papers which absolutely don't exist.

Is it impossible? Well obviously it's not quite totally impossible but it is beyond the bounds of Probability. in 1942 the germans were winning the war. The us had yet to commit and the Russians had yet to beat the wehrmacht back. The Hess mission whatever that was was long over and clearly Britain was in desperate straights. Germany was refusing to cooperate in repatriating even the sickest of pow and the u boats were still a major threat. With that background just what can Bader have been in Liverpool for? Medical? Germany wasn't cooperating and anyway the legs and baders stumps were being dealt with in Germany. Bader got a new leg after his crash as well. Some sort of diplomatic mission? Why? Germany thought it had virtually won Can you think of a less diplomatic person?! Secret missions? So why place the most recognisable person imaginable in public view? It doesnt add up. Sure not every thing in life is logical or properly thought through but occam says this really is an extreme and thus impossible

I'd appreciate civilised debate with ken without all the nonsense and made up accusations too. I prefer to discuss calmly and logically but I suffer fools badly a nd if ken starts making his juvenile nonsense then he reaps the whirlwind. I have no patience with rude people. politeness costs nothing howver Ken has been banned from many forums for his bad behaviour when faced with anyone disagreeing with him and I suspect we will not get any change in behaviour here.
edit on 2-4-2012 by SPM.45 because: (no reason given)

edit on 2-4-2012 by SPM.45 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 2 2012 @ 06:10 PM
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Originally posted by spacedonk
And for the sake of interest RN some questions to further the discussion:

1. How long roughly was Bader there? Can you recall?

2. Did he stay in the hotel or go out from memory?

3. When you attended him how long did it take to get his legs attached?

4. Did he have visitors? Was he the subject of gossip between other employees?

5. Did he take meals in private or in a communal dining room?

I know this 70 years ago but any fleshing out of the story that I might have missed would be cool to read.



posted on Apr, 2 2012 @ 07:23 PM
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Good morning SP,

As I warned you, the Stalker and his agenda did get to you first and it seems that you are both now going to be involved for some time with your personal explanations, theories and sadly for you both, wrong conclusions regarding my experience with Douglas Bader.

SP, for many years my memoir and later Bader Enigma addition was freely available on the Internet during which time I had hundreds of e-mails (in my archives) from people who thought the accounts of my wartime service were excelllent and, the vast majority of readers also had faith in my Bader story. To have a complete understanding of the Bader story it is essential that you would have read it from day one and my then oft repeated statement in BOLD PRINT that I have no proof of this meeting with Bader, repeat I have no proof of this meeting with Bader, and the purpose of this WORK IN PROGRESS is to seek help from anyone who may have been involved at that time

When I was working at the 5 star Adelphi Hotel in Liverpool and as the hotel was part of the then LMS railway system I was in a reserved occupation that meant I was exempt for being called up for military service and, had I stayed there would have done very well for myself. However, one afternoon in January 1942 I was approached by a man who told me he was the manager of the smaller and lesser Stork Hotel in a secluded part of the city and he would like to offer me a postion at this hotel as wine waiter with a small wage rise but vast potential to make much much more from tips. As I had no fears about serving in the armed forces I visited the hotel to check it out and then accepted his offer and started work there in February 1942 both of us knowing that in November 1942 I would be 18 and called up.. A copy of my reference from this hotel was published within my story on the net and I still have the original.

A question for you to ponder. Why would the manager of the Stork seek me out and offer me job knowing that it would only be for about a year? Inestigations showed (despite protestations from the stalker) the the Stork Hotel was at the time an MI5 safehouse and was used solely for the use use of military officers and the like as coincidently it was just around the corner from Churchills Northern Approaches bunker and HQ....for what it is.
worth.
And also for what it is worth the owner of the Hotel, John Clancy was at the end of the war awarded an OBE for "Services" Make what you will of that event.

When I was asked by the manager if I would be prepared to assist Douglas Bader each morning with his legs and dressing, I had no idea that he was supposed to be in a POW camp in Germany nor did I really care. To me at this stage Bader was just another of many prominent people I had been involved with at the Adelphi such as Wisnston Churchill and many other well known personalities all discussed in my memoir. The Churcxhill episode also cast aside by the Stalkercan be read in the archives of the LIVERPOOL ECHO.newspaper should you care to have a look.

So geting back to the Stork Hotel, it is fanciful to suggest that a bunch of MI5 operatives would be playing silly pranks on an intelligent young man and I am amazed to think anyone would consider this possibilty. We did'nt play silly pranks, we were involved in a deadly war.

I cannot say if Bader's visit to the Stork Hotel was at thge start of his stay in England or at the end of his stay. Many hundred of readers offered possible reasons why he could have been there and there were discussed and rejected as the work in progress evolved. My theory was and probablyb still is that he came back in order to have measurements made for a new set of legs. Either way this would explain why I saw him walking down the steep staircase at the Stork using sticks.....Why sticks? (a) He was wearing his badly damaged old legs and did not have Ross to carry him down or (b) he was wearing new or repaired legs and hence the harness I helped him to put on ans legs that were yet to be broken in and again, did not have Ross to carry him down the stairs, as it is well documented that Bader could not handle stairs on his own.

I think I have given you enough information to enable the stalker to jump up and down and for you to calmly consider the start of the Bader Enigma. And I must tell you that my memories of that meeting are burned into my memory for all time. Meanwhile I will not embark on any further discourse with the stalker as it is fixed firmly in his mind that Bader wasn't there he was in Germany whilst I have shown a wonderful window of opportunty for complete confirmation of my theory and strory.

Good Luck with you discussions with the stalker

KW



posted on Apr, 2 2012 @ 09:09 PM
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reply to post by RNmedic1942
 


Re your questionairre,

I have no idea how long he stayed at the hotel,I probably attended to him for 2 or 3 days, but that's not to say he asked for someone else to do it and could have been there much longer. I don't now

I have no idea if he stayed in or went out I had many more things to do than observe him, just another guest.

When I attached his legs I at first had to massage both stumps (one above and one below the knee) with methylated or perhaps surgical spirits that he had with him in a blue glass bottle. Then I had to carefully wrap both stumps in clean surgical gauze (also supplied by Bader) prevent chaffing when the stumps were placed into the tin leg ( soft leather lined I think) sockets. There was as I recall, a heavy leather belt that went around the waste that was attached to both legs to prevent them falling off. Then there was a Sam Browne type over the shoulder section as well. To do all this probably took me about 10-15 minutes as I had to make sure everything was correct. Then I helped him put his trousers on and from then on he told me he was able to manage the rest. During all this, there was no chance to enter into a conversation with him as he was very sullen throughout This fact I reported to the manager.

In retrospect to all detracors, don't you think that if I had known all the apparent facts that he should not have been here would not have caused me to ask questions of both Bader and the manager? I did not even think of asking for an autograph..pity!. And I did not even memtion to my parents my encounter with Bader.

I would have no idea if he had visitors or not. How could I know this? I was busy busy busy. But I suppose he had many visitors but I hav no idea..

I know he had breakfast in the dining room because I saw him coming down the staicase with his sticks and go into order breakfast. The rest of the meals I have no idea and I think he eventually was moved to the owners country house at Ormskirk on the outskirts of Liverpool, but that is just another theory.

There was at the time no doubt in my mind that I was dealing with a very sullen and rude Duglas Bader and there are no doubts in my mind all these years later who it was. No pranks, no tricks why indeed would there be?... as I keep saying and will never stop saying HE WAS THERE, I WAS THERE!



posted on Apr, 3 2012 @ 12:42 AM
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And so we go round and round and I see despite the entreaties we are not going to have an open conversation. If you will not discuss possibilities then you are not looking for facts.

Bader did not use the shoulder straps on his legs at any time after the first few days he was first fitted after his crash

Bader had one new leg dropped to him in 1941 after his capture so that would have been only a year old in 1942.

Bader was capable of managing stair cases and did not use sticks, the tight worn spiral staircases of colditz excepted. His method of negotiating stairs by a "dot and carry" gait is the fact that is recorded. This is a man that could climb into a spitfire or hurricane lets not forget so most stairs were not a problem. Steep stairs without handrails might force him to request a hand in climbing them but it is not true to say that it is recorded that bader "could not handle stairs on his own".

A German wanted poster of bader after one of his escapes described him as "walking well without a stick". This was after his escape from Sagan, just before his transfer to lamsdorf ie exactly the time that you allege you met a legless man struggling with his artificial legs. Yet bader was capable of escape from a pow camp on these same legs.

These are facts call it what you like but strip away the speculation and hearsay and we still have a description that does not match w/c drs bader

I'm sure people will note your refusal to discuss possibilities and reach their own conclusion
edit on 3-4-2012 by SPM.45 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 3 2012 @ 01:18 AM
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Originally posted by SPM.45
And so we go round and round and I see despite the entreaties we are not going to have an open conversation. If you will not discuss possibilities then you are not looking for facts.

Bader did not use the shoulder straps on his legs at any time after the first few days he was first fitted after his crash

Bader had one new leg dropped to him in 1941 after his capture so that would have been only a year old in 1942.

Bader was capable of managing stair cases and did not use sticks, the tight worn spiral staircases of colditz excepted. His method of negotiating stairs by a "dot and carry" gait is the fact that is recorded. This is a man that could climb into a spitfire or hurricane lets not forget so most stairs were not a problem. Steep stairs without handrails might force him to request a hand in climbing them but it is not true to say that it is recorded that bader "could not manage stairs".

A German wanted poster of bader after one of his escapes described him as "walking well without a stick". This was after his escape from Sagan, just before his transfer to lamsdorf ie exactly the time that you allege you met a legless man struggling with his artificial legs. Yet bader was capable of escape from a pow camp on these same legs.

These are facts call it what you like but strip away the speculation and hearsay and we still have a description that does not match w/c drs bader

I'm sure people will note your refusal to discuss possibilities and reach their own conclusions.



edit on 3-4-2012 by SPM.45 because: (no reason given)



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