Pope Says, "Christian Churches not real Churches."

@ undo: I didn't say one had to have a Ph. D in theological studies to spread the good news, I'm saying that Christ himself taught individuals (the disciples) the word, then sent them out as "apostles" to spread it. There are scriptures that back my claim as well. Even Christ as a young man sat in the temples and listened to the priests and had dialogue with them. Even though he was divine, he still was learning before he set out to spread the good news.

I understand your point in regards to the willingness of the spirit, the disciples were for the most ignorant in the beginning, that is until Christ came to them and explained to them the word, and they first became his "disciples" and later "apostles" of Christ. It also says that the "apostles" were endowed with the Holy Spirit, and then set out to spread the word.

The simple charge of go spread the Good News is not an elaborate discleship. What was said to the apostles/discples when they said - oh look over there, there's people preaching about you and they are not of us (et.al, we haven't indoctrinated them, so we have no idea what they are talking about!!)? The answer was pretty brief and to the point.

What's the Good News? Is it litargies, rituals, rites, dogma, precept upon precept, line upon line, or is it the simple Good News? It's the simple Good News. That's the problem. It's too simple. The educated think it needs to be more complicated, filled with tradition and meaningful human ritual. Those things are fine, if you need them to build your faith, but they are not required for either discleship or apostleship. All that's required is you, the Spirit of God, and a desire to spread the Good News. They didn't have bibles back then, ya know.

Here is an question I want people to think about it I will also give my answer.
Unless you are an Catholic what reason is there to take heed of what the Pope has to say ?
IMO there is no reason what so ever for non Catholic people to heed what the pope says. Personally I couldn't care less about what the Pope says and does. I do respect peoples right to worship an non existent higher power but I just cant find any respect for someone who is against the use of condoms despite the number of Aids related deaths in Africa and that is before I deal with his other view points concerning gays.

undo, spiritually speaking you had every right to say what you said concerning the guy with long hair, I had long hair when I came to christ and some people just could not accept the fact that I was a christian because I had long hair the two just didnt seem to go together, I had long hair because I played in a rock band at the time. which was another taboo in the church at that time.


I tell people that come to christ that the spirit of God will lead them in the way that they should go, there are so many scriptures talking about being lead by the spirit of God, that people just ignore when it comes to how they should live. Romans 8:14 says " for as many as are lead by the spirit of God, these are the sons of God."

I never felt conviction in my heart over my long hair or my rock style of music, but I did over profanity, smoking and getting drunk so I quite those things.

but back on topic, I feel that what the pope has said could bring about a backlash against the catholic church due to the pedophilia charges running wild against so many catholic priest's, I mean really......clean out your own closet before you start pointing fingers everywhere else.

They didn't have bibles back then, but they did have the prophets, scripture, and Jesus!

Christ was a complex individual, and most people to this day still do not fully understand or comprehend his message. I mean, he had to use metaphorical stories to get people to understand where he was coming from, in a philosophical sense. Christ taught his disciples what they needed to know, and sent them forth. Firstly, he "taught" them and secondly, they were endowed with the Holy Spirit. Christ sent the disciples out with authority to act in His name.

What I'm saying is that people who don't know the history, scripture, and context of the bible shouldn't be speaking on it. For an example, why would somebody say they have a personal relationship with Jesus when they don't follow his teachings? Why should they be speaking on his behalf when they don't truly know him or his work?

Originally posted by uberarcanist
Nah, start fletchin'. I think I'll get a longbow regiment together...

LOL would a crossbow do? I also have a Welsh Longbow, and so do my archers... so were all set

Originally posted by douglas2k4
Off Topic: Indeed, I play it perhaps every other day, one of the best RTS games available.

[edit on 10-7-2007 by douglas2k4]

Game? Ummmm errrrr okay sure.... game... uh huh...



When your tired of fighting like a mouse errrrr with a mouse, come out and play like a man

Drachen Viking Detachment.. Friends of mine from the Homeland



Now then back to the pope...

I have it on real good authority that somewhere deep in the Vatican lie the true teachings of Jesus... Apparently releasing these documents would cause a major rift in Church attendance....

It was rumored that the previous pope was going to release them years ago. That never happened. I am curious if anyone else has heard of this?

@ zorgon: The looks fun, but in real-life can you control an army of 10,000? Lol, I would love to try that out though, looks very entertaining!

Also, I've heard of the secret teachings of Jesus as well, very interesting.

[edit on 11-7-2007 by douglas2k4]

Originally posted by undo
Oh gosh, that Jesuit thing will really cause undue distress at this point.

Perhaps your right... we don't want to frighten the children

I did find it interesting, however, that the one article tried to claim that one of the popes (forget which one now, do you remember?) was killed by his own jesuit general (poisioned, I believe was the cause), because apparently there as a bit of infighting between the two

Well now I did not know this!! You have time and date? That may explain the reason those documents were not released That would certainly be a good reason.

[edit on 11-7-2007 by zorgon]

Wasn't it one of the John Pauls? *the first I think*. I think Wiki has it in the article on him. Whichever one it was, was killed a couple of days into his reign and then covered over.

EDIT: Yes, I think that's the dude you're looking for:

www.google.co.uk...

[edit on 11-7-2007 by ejsaunders]

Originally posted by AnAbsoluteCreation
But, where does anyone get off saying that your place of worship is not "Kosher," even if it be your own spirit, at your own home.

Leave it up to the Catholic Church to make a declaration like that one. Whatever happened to "judge not, lest ye be judged"? I'm kind of perplexed about this whole thing. It reeks of a move by the Church to try to reassert itself as the dominant denomination of Christianity.

Next stop, Holy Wars!!! Oh wait, that's already going on in the Middle East, sorry.

TheBorg

They didn't have bibles back then, but they did have the prophets, scripture, and Jesus!

And so do you! That's my point. If it be that the Spirit of God dwell in you, you got the same exact thing. It's right there, inside ya. It doesn't require a church building, a pulpit, a litargy, a priest, a book, or a university. All it requires is the gospel, you and the Spirit of God indwelling. If it was any different, thousands of christians without bibles, pastors, churches, priests and so on, would just be out of luck.

Originally posted by ejsaunders
Wasn't it one of the John Pauls? *the first I think*. I think Wiki has it in the article on him. Whichever one it was, was killed a couple of days into his reign and then covered over.

EDIT: Yes, I think that's the dude you're looking for:

www.google.co.uk...

[edit on 11-7-2007 by ejsaunders]

Yeah, i think that's the one.
Does it say in the article that a female aide, who was connected to the jesuits, did it?

Originally posted by ejsaunders
EDIT: Yes, I think that's the dude you're looking for:

Yes that would be the correct timing indeed... I was looking into this years ago, but then never pursued it. I will need some time to go through all that info on that site and see if I can find my old sources (or new ones) about those papers

Thanks

Edit to add.... Okay that was easy... gotta love the internet...

This video has a really nice summary of the documents...

It suggests there was a conspiracy (of about 6 people) who thought it up and sorted him out. He was found by a female aide, but I don't think she did it. It's been years since I read the story though so I could be wrong.

He was basically saying how corrupt the church had become and was going to sort it out and then, boom, dead the next day afaicr. Most of it seems to stem from the corruption of people in the Vatican Bank and montary concerns and interests, but I don't doubt for a second that some of it is related to spreading the true word of God, and the age old favorite of the Chatholic church (and because I always giggle when I say it) 'kiddie fiddling'.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
The most unspeakable evil has been committed in the name of Roman Catholicism - how do followers reconcile themselves to that?

People within the Church sin. We are all sinners. However, their sins do not change the truths of our faith (including - Christ has died, Christ has risen, Christ will come again.) People who sin don't change spiritual truths.

How convenient. The Pope can be a criminal, commit acts of evil and still this does not effect the spiritual truths. The Pope can launder the money of criminals, it can commit simonary and still this does not effect its spirituality. The Pope can condone the murder of women and children and still this does not change the truths. The Pope can harbour criminals, aid in their evasion from justice and still that does not effect the spiritual truths. The Pope can assist in the international drugs trade and still remain spiritual. The Pope and Vatican can exist in great wealth and comfort while its faithful starve and die, but still they are spiritual.

I agree that people who sin do not affect spiritual truths, but unless they seek to redeem themselves they will sinners. Redemption is not confessing your sins and saying five hail marys, redemption is about righting wrongs. When has a Pope ever sought to right the wrongs that were committed in his name. The only spirituality that the Vatican has ever sought to promote is one that involves control, exploitation, death and destruction. This in no way conforms with the teachings of Jesus. The Vatican seeks to keep people in darkness and as you so ably demonstrate, it suceeds.

All those who have sought to redeem and reform the Church have been destroyed. All those who have questioned the opulence and avarice of the Papacy have been destroyed.

How convenient that so many blindly accept the excuses for fear of hell and damnation.

I realise that many like you rejoice in your faith, but for every one of you, there is another that suffers pain and depravation because of your Church. As long as people blindly follow, why should they change?

There is so much suffering and depravation in this world and the Church could do so much to end this. Instead your Pope issues a statement to the effect that he's the King of the castle and they're the dirty rascals.

Maybe the pope has alzheimers or dementia and that's the cause for the garbage that spewed out of his mouth. Most popes are rather old when they become a pope. Who's to say his minds not swiss cheese when he accepted the job.
Ya'all better be laughing at this.

Originally posted by undo
Martin Luther didn't invent the idea that the words of Jesus are more important than the words of His ambassadors.

Martin Luther invented Sola Scriptura. That's a fact. It's also a fact that the bible is full of the sacred traditions of that time period.

Tradition is a man-made thing.

So is the bible.

Originally posted by uberarcanist
Jesus and Paul attacked Pharisees for following human tradition AND NOT holy scripture.

Not exactly. The bible is not the 'end all' and it does NOT contain all truth and all teaching. It does say to make a distinction between good tradition and bad tradition .. and also to carry on those things passed down orally (not in scripture).

Mark 6:34 "He began to teach them many things .." None of these many things were recorded.

John 16:12 "I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now."

John 20:30 "Now, Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book."

John 21:25: "But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written."

Acts 1:2-3: "To (the Apostles) he presented himself alive after his passion by many proofs, apeparing to them during forty days, and speaking of the kingdom of God" These things He spoke of are not written in the bible.

1 Corinthians 11:2: "I commend you because you remember me in everything and MAINTAIN THE TRADITIONS even as I have delivered them to you."

2 Thessalonians 2:15: "Stand firm and HOLD TO THE TRADITIONS which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter."

2 Thessalonians 3:6 "Keep away from any brother who is living in idleness and not in accord with the TRADITION that you received from us."

Don't forget - In the bible - 'Word of God' usually referrs to those things NOT in scripture. Also, scripture refers to the early Christians as having an oral sacred tradition. The 'gospel' was still oral at that time.

1 Thessalonians 2:13 - "when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but as what it really is, the word of God"

1 Corinthians 15:1 - "... the gospel, whichyou recieved ... "
1 Thessalonians 2:9 "We preached to you the gospel of God."
Acts 8:14 "Samaria had received the word of God."
1 Thessalonians 2:13 "You recieved the word of God which you HEARD from us .. "
2 Peter 2:21 "... the holy commandment delivered to them"
Jude 3 " ... the Faith which was once for all delivered to the saints"

MORE on oral sacred traditions -

2 Timothy 1:13-14: "Follow the pattern of the sound words which you have heard from me ...
2 timothy 2:2 "And what you have heard from me before many witnesses ..."

The fact that scripture alone is not sufficient. It is PROFITABLE .. but not 'sufficient'. ..

2 Timothy 3:16-17 "All Scripture is inspired by god and PROFITABLE for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, ... "

St Paul on oral tradition - Rom 6:17; 1 Cor 11:2, 23, 15:1-3; Gal 1:9, 12; Col. 2:8; 1 Thess 2:13; 2 Thess 2:15, 3:6

IN THE END scripture contradicts itself all over the place and anyone can find anything to support just about any stand they want. It can be taken in context and out of context to support anyone and anything.

Originally posted by highfreq
I'm not going public to billions of people saying if you don't follow the catholic way of life your *snip* up.

He didn't say that.

Originally posted by Blue_Jay33
the catholic church never truely followed what Jesus taught.

wrong. (I suppose that's a matter of correct scripture interpretation)

And they never encourged bible reading too,

WRONG again. never been to a mass eh? 2 bible readings during daily mass. 3 during sunday mass. The entire bible is read during mass over a three year period. Also - there are plenty of Catholic bible studies and Catholic bibles available. Just open your eyes.

A priest once told my grandmother ...

IF that's a true story then that priest was stupid.

In fact they exerted terriable control on the people demanding money to get there dead loved ones out of pergatory,

Oh please. Been getting your info from Jack Chick tracts? This is not true.
Prayers are free. Anyone can pray for anyone else .. anyone can pray for the souls in purgatory. No $$ is needed. :shk: dumb.

My family has 100 more stories like that.

Yep... and I'm sure that's what they are .. stories.

The Catholic church is not the correct path to God.

That's YOUR interpretation based on erroneous information. However, the Catholic church, and Pope Benedict, fully believe it's the best path to God. Every group thinks their path is the best and/or correct path. The Catholic faith is no different.

Originally posted by the_sentinal
the pope being a man could have the audacity to judge who is truly a spiritually regenerated being through their house of worship.

That's not what he said. You didn't read the article and you didn't read the thread, did you? FOR THE FOURTH TIME - he was talking about apostolic succession. He didn't say anything about people's spirituality. He was talking about apostolic succession.

His statement leaves little doubt about his own spiritual state in my opinion.

Since you don't understand the statement, and you don't understand why he said what he did or even what he was talking about then you can't possibly JUDGE (judge not lest ye be judged) his spiritual state.

Originally posted by uberarcanist
Don't you realize that the leader of the Roman Catholic Church has just declared everyone except for his church as the enemy?

Don't you realize that you have just made a very large error? He did NOT say that. :shk: (have you been getting your education through Jack Chick?)





[edit on 7/11/2007 by FlyersFan]

Originally posted by uberarcanist
Yes, it is true that the KJV is authorized-BY KING JAMES!

I always find it comical that fundamentalists (not you, uberarcanist, but fundamentalists in general) push the King James bible .. a bible named after a man who was a flaming homosexual. Anyways - here are some errors in translation in the King James bible.

Originally posted by uberarcanist
Benedict's comments only serve to antagonize other Christians ...

So what? Do you expect a faith to water down it's beliefs just to make others happy? That's not ecumenicalism .. that's just plain ol' getting rid of a faith to make everyone feel good. That's just being PC.

It doesn't matter if others 'feel good' about the Catholic faith or not. The faith is the faith. If others don't like it then perhaps THEY should change to accept that Catholics believe what they believe. There is no need for the Catholic church to change itself or it's beliefs to make others more comfortable

Originally posted by undo
Apostolic succession is a man made concept.

It was instituted by the Apostles. They started it when they drew lots to fill the position left empty by the death of Judas .. and they prayed over the new apostle. There is an unbroken chain from Peter to the priests of today. Apostolic Succession information from the early church fathers.

Originally posted by undo
Not from Peter. Jesus. Not from Pope. Jesus.

Actually, the Catholic belief in apostolic succession is JESUS to PETER to PRIESTS. Jesus is at the top of the pyramid.

Originally posted by undo
erect an organization in which you get to decide who is worthy and who is not, to preach the gospel. That's deciding for God, who should and shouldn't talk about Him,

That's totally NOT what the Catholic Church does. Anyone can 'talk about God'. No one is stiffled from talking about God. However, God does call some to further service. Many are called .. few are chosen. The Catholic church mirrors what Christ did. He didn't stop people from 'talking about Him'. However, He did call several people to be especially close to Him and to learn and preach in a special way. AND it is in scripture that the Apostles drew lots to replace Judas .. therefore one was chosen to be an apostle and the other was to remain a follower but not an apostle. It's in scripture. That's the way it's been done since the start. The Catholic Church didn't suddenly make it up. Christ's original apostles, guided by the Holy Spirit, set this in motion. Mattthew 10:1; 16:16-19, Luke 6:13, 22:32, John 21:15-17. He specially blessed them - John 20:22. He send them out on special missions that not all his followers had - Matthew 28:19, Mark 16:15, Luke 24:47, John 20:21. And this special priesthood had apostolic succession - a special transmission - 1 tim 4:14; 5:22, 2 Tim 1:6, Tit 1:5. There are special functions and degrees of authority - Matthew 28:19, John 20:23, 1 Cor 11:24, james 5:14, 1 Cor 12:28, Eph 4:11, 1 Thess 5:12, James 3:1.

Originally posted by zorgon
I have it on real good authority that somewhere deep in the Vatican lie the true teachings of Jesus... Apparently releasing these documents would cause a major rift in Church attendance....

Good authority? Jack Chick?

Originally posted by undo
It doesn't require a church building, a pulpit, a litargy, a priest, a book, or a university. All it requires is the gospel, you and the Spirit of God indwelling.

Not always. Somethings are hard to understand and some have need of an interpreter - 2 Peter 3:16. Acts 8:30-31. Scripture is not to be subject to private interpretation 2 Peter 1:20-21

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
The Pope can be a criminal, commit acts of evil and still this does not effect the spiritual truths.

Correct. The sins of those in the church do not change the spiritual truths. They do not change the fact that Christ died; Christ rose; Christ will come again .. do they? Nope.

I agree that people who sin do not affect spiritual truths, but unless they seek to redeem themselves they will sinners.

Sure. I never said that they were not sinners. I said that ALL PEOPLE sin. And that fact has nothing to do with the truths of the faith. That is what your original question was about ..remember?

redemption is about righting wrongs.

No. It's about confessing your sins and making an attempt not to sin again. Righting wrongs that you have done would be helpful, but is not required for redemption. Christ redeemed us .. all we have to do is accept that. Works do not save.

The only spirituality that the Vatican ...

That was a lot of subjective interjection ... but still ... even if what you say is true (which I doubt) then the sins of those in the Church still do not change the truths of the faith. And I believe that was what your original question was about, right?

Originally posted by vckums
Maybe the pope has alzheimers or dementia and that's the cause for the garbage that spewed out of his mouth.

Actually, his brother (who is also a priest I believe) said that his brother, the pope, is rather forgetful at times. So you may be right about his health. However, as far as what he said being 'garbage' ... he was restating the Catholic belief about Apostolic Succession - which he has a right and a duty to state and uphold.


[edit on 7/11/2007 by FlyersFan]

Well, this is an unfortunate set-back in circumstances. Old Rat-zinger has now undone the corrective statements Pope John Paul made in this area.

Which is just another point of undeniable fallibility in the doctrine of infallibility - there aint no way to make both of these Popes right, now is there?

While this is a crying shame on the part of Rat-boy - maybe it will have good consequences by convincing more Catholics they need to just set aside the ludicrous notion of infallibility and start taking the ramblings of the pope like they do any other human leader - with a grain of salt. Maybe more will figure out they need to just stick with what the Bible says to them when they read it in prayerful study - and less on what a crotchety old man who thinks he's Jesus says it's saying.

[edit on 7-11-2007 by Valhall]

Originally posted by Tranceopticalinclined


God is a spiritual being like biggie said, he cares nothing of material things, and deffinetly wouldnt just Shoot up to heaven all those people leaving their Planes, cars, homes and whatever to Kill all those millions of people in horrific accidents.

God cares, and many will understand that Your heart, body and mind are yer temple. Your Actions are to be judged rather then your beliefs.

the christian God is the Jewish God..tho he was merceful...he was at times vengeful(sp?)....and there was almost always judgments where people were hurt...punished....or killed....