Pope Says, "Christian Churches not real Churches."

Actually the only real church is the Orthodox Church, because the Holy Light appears only to the Orthodox priest at easter ceremony in Jerusalem.

Link: www.ocf.org...

Originally posted by timeless test

Mad as a bucket of frogs the lot of them...

that had me laughin for about 5 mins

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[edit on 11-7-2007 by DontTreadOnMe]

I was raised in the RCC. I stopped attending Mass regularly as a young man and turned to a more spiritual path. I've studied many other religions as well as the history of the early Christian faith. I find it so ironic that the very people who crucified Yeshua(Christ's given Jewish name), the Romans, would later come to represent him. The Romans also place the blame for his being crucified on the Jews. At that time, the Jews seldom executed anyone for any crime including heresy. This of course excludes some fundamentalist sects of Judaism. The current King James version of the Bible is an imperfect translation of the Latin Bibles which were written and edited some 300-400 after Jesus died. It's earliest Greek forms weren't written until over 100 years after all of its major players were dead.

The RCC is arguably the most well organized religion today in terms of management. Doomsayers have predicted its collapse since its beginning. I doubt seriously that it will disappear as a religious faith anytime within the foreseeable future. I think that it's laughable that any serious observer of religion and faith would say that the RCC is in any serious trouble over the foibles of few priests and what seems likely to be a Pope with 'foot in mouth' disease.

Originally posted by Valhall
Which is just another point of undeniable fallibility in the doctrine of infallibility -

Again .. ya'll need to read the catechism and see what 'infalibility' in the Catholic church is. (and you all need to read this entire thread and see that this has been gone over a few times already).

When a pope declares dogma EXCATHEDRA it is considered infalible. This happens on rare occasions. The statement by Ratzinger was NOT made EXCATHEDRA and neither were the ecumenical changes by Pope John Paul II. Infalibility has NOTHING TO DO with the pope .. but only excathedra dogma declarations made by him.

Originally posted by undo
This is the actual line of succession:

The apostles did have apostolic succession. You'll see it as you read through my previous posts. Your 'line of succession' is nice and all ... but it has nothing to do with how Christ set up His Church to be run. (you'll see when you get to the biblical quotes).

Originally posted by geemony
Well the priest denied the request and stated that it was against the church policy to allow the service to happen in the church instead of the grave site.

I have never heard of such a thing. Catholic funerals are allowed to be grave side, but the church prefers them to be in the church itself. If this story is true .. then you got a lazy priest.

Originally posted by the_sentinal
what is apostolic succession?? is it not a spiritual succession?? are we to believe that this succession can only happen in the catholic church??

Apostolic Succession has to do with the priesthood. I don't know where you are going with 'a spiritual succession'. And yes .. the Catholic Church and the Orthodox churches are the only ones with Apostolic Succession.

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
I simply cannot reconcile myself to the fact that it is okay to murder, rape and starve people as long as you confess.

ALL of Christianity believes that if you confess your sins and try not to do them again, then Christ will forgive you. It is never 'okay' to do these things and our human laws need to put people in jail at the same time that they ask for (and receive) the forgiveness of Christ.

If successive Popes have set doctrine, like the the infallibility question, and they themselves have committed acts evil, how can the Church as a whole be good for it is built upon the thoughts of evil men.

All humans sin. Peter, the first pope, denied Christ and yet Christ said his church would be built upon such a sinner (Matthew 16:18). It is impossible to find humans who don't sin .. therefore every church on earth is run by sinners .. and attended by sinners.

Most of all though if the Church is so good, if it is right, then surely it should not need to torture people to convert, it should not need to murder the opposition.

You have the Catholic Church confused with the radical Islamic terrorists. The Catholic Church (and the Protestants) haven't done that sort of thing for 500 years. (and yes, the Protestants did it as well)

is it simply for the selfish reason that you only care for your own salvation and do not care how many people are murdered for your faith as long as you have a seat in heaven?

:shk: Oh brother. Seriously, where have you been getting your education on the Catholic Church? You do realize it is 2007, right?

Originally posted by the_sentinal
my wife says she cannot go to the catholic church because she's been divorced and they wont accept her.

She's gotta be confused .. or she has been dealing with someone in the diocese who doesn't understand the church (yes, it does happen. ) EVERYONE is welcome to worship in the Catholic Church. Everyone. Also - divorce is not a problem in the Catholic Church. It's only when there is remarriage involved that it gets sticky. Sticky as in she may or may not be allowed to receive Holy Communion until the first marriage is declared null by the Church. Has she made an effort to get the paperwork done to have it declared null? If not .. she can still worship in the Church but can't receive Holy Communion until the paperwork is set. Getting it done isn't a big deal anymore.

Originally posted by Shadowflux
It is obviously divisive and intended to alienate and insult all non-Catholic Christians,

Right. The pope is going to bend over backwards and issue a statement about apostolic succession with the purpose of insulting people. This - from the same pope that STUPIDLY stood in a mosque on his recent trip to the Middle East .. and bowed toward Mecca at prayer time. That doesn't make any sense.

Apostolic Succession is a moot discussion, it's an institution created by man.

I already gave you the scripture quotes that shows it was instituted by the Apostles. Also - the BIBLE was written by man as well .. don't forget that. It's also NOT MOOT. It is the entire purpose of his statement .. which we are supposed to be discussing.

Jesus never set up a church, Jesus did not create the first Pope.

Dead wrong. Matthew 16:18.

The common man had never read the Bible until Martin Luther translated it into German,

Not true. The common man never read the bible because the comman man COULDN'T READ. The bible was widely available in universities and other places of higher learning. It was not withheld from the people at all.
To say otherwise is to support a myth.

IMO if you are a strict Catholic then you are not really a Christian as the majority of Catholic dogma has arisen from the church itself and not from scripture

Judging who is a true christian and who isn't, eh? Oh .. I never would have guessed that you were an anti-Catholic (sarcaism) .. probably a Jack Chickie too, eh? Guess what ... AS I ALREADY POSTED ... the Catholic Church is based on Scripture AND Sacred Tradition. Go back and re-read the quotes from scripture that have already been posted about HOLDING TIGHT to the sacred traditions that are passed on.

Originally posted by Redfish
As soon as the Pope stops riding around in an armored car with bullet proof glass, he can make statements like that.

Good people get murdered. Christians all over the world are martyred. God didn't even spare His Own Son. Your statement makes no sense.

Originally posted by Leyla
I think the Pope has a screw loose.

As I said before, The Popes brother (also a priest) has said that his brother the pope is not in good health and is getting very forgetful.

Originally posted by laiguana
there's lots of catholics that think the Pope is the next thing to god/Jesus and they pretty much believe anything that comes out of the Vatican.

Got some stats to back that up? What has been told to us is that less than 5% of Catholics listen to the Vatican and actually try to follow the rules of the Catholic Church. That's hardly 'LOTS' and NONE think the Pope is God.

Originally posted by Terapin
The Pope does not talk to God

Sure he does. We all talk to God when we pray. He is no different.

or is he the only voice of God on Earth, as the Vatican claims him to be.

Got a link to back up your claim that the Vatican says the Pope is 'the only voice of God on Earth"?? Nope. You don't. Because it doesn't exist. The Vatican does not claim this. God speaks through many people and many situations in a person's life. The Holy Spirit moves hearts and inspires MANY people to speak words that God wishes. THAT is what the Catholic Church claims


[edit on 7/11/2007 by FlyersFan]

This was passed to me by a member. Regarding the pope and the Vatican.



www.truecatholic.org...

www.opusdeialert.com...

www.vaticaninexile.com...

www.crystalinks.com...

www.vaticanassassins.org...

Oh FF I saw your statement regarding the pope's health after I posted this-If his health is poor he shouldn't be pope.

I have to say Pope John Paul the II was much better.

But I'm sorry the pope releasing a statement saying that the catholic church is the only true church- I find that very troubling.



[edit on 7/11/2007 by Leyla]

Flyers,

Takin on all comer huh?

I already gave you the scripture quotes that shows it was instituted by the Apostles. Also - the BIBLE was written by man as well .. don't forget that. It's also NOT MOOT. It is the entire purpose of his statement .. which we are supposed to be discussing.

If I were to classify myself I would suppose I'd say I was a Christian. TO me, that means that I follow the teachings of Christ, if you're an Apostlian (or what ever you call it) that's fine with me. You can follow who ever you want to follow but I'll stick with Jesus.

The bible was widely available in universities and other places of higher learning. It was not withheld from the people at all.

Yeah, it was available in any University or local library, available in Latin. Also, you obviously don't know a lot about history or you would have known that the common man, the working man, the toiler in the field, the serf, would not be allowed into the universities let alone allowed to touch the Bible. Books were hard to make for a long time, only the rich and powerful had them. The idea that a serf would own any book is a laughable myth.

Oh .. I never would have guessed that you were an anti-Catholic (sarcaism) .. probably a Jack Chickie too, eh? Guess what ... AS I ALREADY POSTED ... the Catholic Church is based on Scripture AND Sacred Tradition.

I'm not anti-Catholic, I'm not anti anybody. Well, I've got something against the Pope now. I like Chick comics for the humor value and the fact that, as an artist, I find them rather.........interesting.

Also, you happened to negate your own statement:

Also - the BIBLE was written by man as well.. don't forget that.

the Catholic Church is based on Scripture AND Sacred Tradition.

Tradition is generally taken to mean something that is passed down from generation to generation, that is to say generations of humans. Therefore your argument for the validity of the Catholic church has been robbed of it's foundation according to your own logic.

Ok, I'm out of billy goats so I'll just say this: Christians should follow Jesus

Originally posted by AnAbsoluteCreation
I agree with what you guys are saying. What I would like to know is what Catholic members think of such an unneccesary bold statement.

I guess the old, "Give them an inch of the truth, and then condition them to guard that inch with thier life and never let anything else in" tactic is still working.

GOD IS WITHIN. LOOK INSIDE!

AAC

[edit on 10-7-2007 by AnAbsoluteCreation]

I was born and raised a Catholic. I am now 60 years old and I am still a practicing Catholic. I attend Mass most Sundays but get a little lazy during the summer months.

My own belief is , and no one will ever convince me differntly, is that whatever your personal relegious choice is has nothing to do with wether you will make it to heaven or not. It's all a matter of how YOU lead your own life. A good Lutheran will make it to heaven a bad Catholic won't.

I am Catholic by choice but that is my choice and I am comfortable with that choice....It works for me. But there is no way in the world I believe that it the only or even best path to eternal life.
I think every individual has to decide what is best for them wether it be another Christian based faith, Judism, Islam or just a believer in God with no specific denomination it all works out the same.

Worship your God, be faithful to your beliefs, lead a good life and all will be well.

There are as many good Lutherans in heaven as there are bad Catholics in hell.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by geemony
Well the priest denied the request and stated that it was against the church policy to allow the service to happen in the church instead of the grave site.


I have never heard of such a thing. Catholic funerals are allowed to be grave side, but the church prefers them to be in the church itself. If this story is true .. then you got a lazy priest.

Well it did happen, wouldnt make that up FF. If it was a lazy priest then i guess thats what the parrish deserves.

Lets throw them under the bus why not.....

Scared Heart church St. Mary's County, MD Priest was Father Early was is no longer there. prob just got rotated to another area as they often do nowadays.

Ill give you one more, my sister put my niece into catholic school. the girl has gotten a great start shes 9 and she's in the nations top 90 percentile. Hats off to the teachers at the school. Well they of course you know are either funded by the arch diocese or they are not funded unless they do bake sales and no limit holdem turnys. ( last one of those i had a k flush and the other guy showed me the ace same suite damn)... oh back on topic.... well the church is balking now at continuing the funding. Great way to do business isnt it? One of the richest organizations on earth and they make the kids suffer for thier lack of management ability. if I sound PO'ed its just getting a bit personal with me and the catholic religion.

Questions for you,
Do you think that the message has gotten a bit over shadowed and or forgotten?
Do you really think Jesus meant for his message or church to be run by one all powerful Pope and a group of Cardinals in a place called Vatican City?
Isnt the soul and heart really the church and the vessal for Gods will to be done. or did God and Jesus intend for thier followers to put undieing faith in a group of thier peers to dictate the word of God to them. Hard for me to understand it really.

whew!!!!

Flyers don't be serious...because if most Catholics didn't listen to the Pope then you wouldn't see a crowd of thousands gathered around to listen to him utter a few words.
You can see the contradiction immediately...because while you claim Catholics don't care about the Pope, and someone says something in defiance of the Pope the first one to jump on it will be a Catholic.
Also...most of Latin America identifies as Catholic and yes...they do listen to the Pope on a literal basis...especially those who have minimal to no education...and that would be the majority of them. It's integrated into their culture by the church. Perhaps you haven't been in many Latin American countries...but I have.

[edit on 11-7-2007 by laiguana]

Shoot laiguana, I Catholic and don't understand and don't agree with your above stuff.
Ratzinger's not a Catholic commodity that I follow.

Dallas

Originally posted by Shadowflux
if you're an Apostlian (or what ever you call it) that's fine with me. You can follow who ever you want to follow but I'll stick with Jesus.

I have no idea what kind of statement that is. Catholics are Christians who have apostolic succession.

(the bible) it was available in any University or local library, available in Latin.

Yes, that's true. And those in the Universities and libraries KNEW latin.
So the bible was NOT withheld from the people.

you obviously don't know a lot about history

I know history. Looks like your version is a bit prejudiced though

The idea that a serf would own any book is a laughable myth.

I never said a serf would own a book. In fact, I said that the common person COULD NOT READ. Did you bother to REALLY read my post? It sure doesn't look like it. A person who can't read wouldn't own a book. And no one would bother printing bibles in the common language if the common people couldn’t even read their own common language.

I like Chick comics

I knew it! It doesn't matter what you claim to like them for. You are reading that trash and it has entered your subconscious. And now the pollution is coming forth .. for your own sake UNPLUG from that vile crap.

Therefore your argument for the validity of the Catholic church has been robbed of it's foundation according to your own logic.

I have no idea how to follow this suggestion of yours. You'll have to reword it. Thank you.

Christians should follow Jesus

Yes. And Catholics do. (no matter what your buddy Jack Chick says)

Originally posted by duster
There are as many good Lutherans in heaven as there are bad Catholics in hell.

We have no way of knowing how many people are in heaven vs how many are in hell, however the Catholic Church says that there are people of all denominations in both places. Being Catholic does NOT mean a free ticket ride to heaven. The Catholic Church is very clear on that.

Originally posted by geemony
One of the richest organizations on earth and they make the kids suffer for thier lack of management ability.

To use business terms - each parish is independently owned and operated under the corporate umbrella. To expect the Vatican to fund a local parish in America is like expecting the McDonalds Corporate headquarters to fund a failing McDonalds franchise in Harlem. That's a poor example .. but it's the best I have. I too would like to see parishes that have more money give to those who don't have as much, but that is something that the people of those parishes need to do on their own. No one can force someone else to be generous.

Do you think that the message has gotten a bit over shadowed and or forgotten?

Calls for a subjective answer - and my answer is this ... Do you mean the message of salvation or some other message? The message of salvation is there - attend Mass, pray and read. It's there.

Do you really think Jesus meant for his message or church to be run by one all powerful Pope and a group of Cardinals in a place called Vatican City?

Matthew 16:18. Jesus established His Church. He put one person in charge. He knew that the one person (Peter) had others around him to assist (the apostles). Christ, being God, could see the future and knew what would become of His church - the good and the bad. As for what Christ wants and doesn't want .. you'll have to ask Him.

Isnt the soul and heart ..

You'll have to reword this for me. I can't follow exactly what you are saying

Originally posted by laiguana
if most Catholics didn't listen to the Pope then you wouldn't see a crowd of thousands gathered around to listen to him utter a few words.

I'm very serious. ~ 5% of Catholics in America use Natural Family Planning, most use artificial birth control which is forbidden by the church. ~ 10% go to Easter Confession which is required by the Church .. I could go on, but those stats right there tell you that most Catholics DO NOT listen to the Vatican and don't listen to the Pope. Just because he gets rock star treatment doesn't mean that people do what he says. Heck .. we go to Arlington Cemetary on Veterans Day for the ceremonies .. I'd go no matter if I voted for that particular president or not. (see?)

most of Latin America identifies as Catholic

Sure. That doesn't mean they follow what he says. Most of Brazil is Catholic .. but have you seen the stats on adultry there (against Catholic Teaching?) YIKES. If these people listened to the pope then they wouldn't be commiting adultry .. there wouldn't be massive amounts of drugs being shipped up from Latin America into the USA. .... etc etc
www2.hu-berlin.de...
www.catholicnews.com...

Perhaps you haven't been in many Latin American countries..

South America - Venezuela and Bolivia.


[edit on 7/12/2007 by FlyersFan]

I think that's kind of bizarre for a pope to say. I'm Catholic, but not by choice, but by birth.
I have been to other churches and as long as they worship God, the supreme being, i'm ok with it.
I dont care what church i go to as long as it isnt The Church of Satan.

I think this pope is nuts. One could say that the Catholic church isnt as holy as one thinks and that many Catholics are very dissapointed at their own religion.

Flyers,

You are a troll of the highest order my friend, I'd almost respect that if it didn't annoy me so much. You're arguing with everyone on this thread yet you don't really have a stance or opinion on the subject. You just like to argue, I guess I can understand that.

If you feel the need to have an intermediary, if you need to distance yourself in your relationship with the creator, if you'd like to follow the law of man, like to kneel and pray before idols and worship false deified humans then go right ahead, by all means.

Thanks for hijacking and derailing this thread.

I would actually take it as a good thing that the Pope doesn't think most Christian churches line up with their heracy. Gives me hope for all the other Churches that they may still have a chance to serve the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. I think most people with brains understand the god that the Pope serves..

MAMMON ANYONE???

Originally posted by Shadowflux
Flyers,

You are a troll of the highest order my friend, I'd almost respect that if it didn't annoy me so much. You're arguing with everyone on this thread yet you don't really have a stance or opinion on the subject. You just like to argue, I guess I can understand that.

I couldn't possibly disagree more (and no, I'm not Catholic). FF has taken the time to refute many of the misconceptions and misunderstandings that have arisen in this thread about the Catholic Church. I fail to see how that's troll-like. When a discussion involves something about which you are intimately familiar and you take the time to correct inaccuracies, that's not being argumentative for argument's sake.

I like seeing FF's contributions on a Catholic themed thread, much like I look forward to Tom Bedlam's input on a physics themed thread.

I'd starred virtually of FFs posts on this thread and was really astounded at the above comments. NOBODY likes to have something that means much to them impugned unfairly with inaccuracies. I think FFs done a remarkable job in providing measured response.

Hey Shadowflux, you wrote inpart:

"Flyers,

You are a troll of the highest order my friend, I'd almost respect that if it didn't annoy me so much."
______________________

Shadowflux, I certainly disagree with you there. Flyers sit's pretty-high in my ATS books. A Brilliant mind with great opinions too. I read most all Flyers' stuff, I may learn something I did not know

Dallas

Originally posted by Leyla

I have to say Pope John Paul the II was much better.




[edit on 7/11/2007 by Leyla]

He was the last really good Pope, even Pope Benedict has said as much...

Originally posted by FlyersFan
You have the Catholic Church confused with the radical Islamic terrorists. The Catholic Church (and the Protestants) haven't done that sort of thing for 500 years. (and yes, the Protestants did it as well)

I think you will find that it was a bit more recent than that – about 70 years ago were the last documented cases of forced conversions by Catholic clergy. There may be more recent cases that I do not know about but the Ustasha regime performed forced conversions and they are well documented and Pope John Paul II publicly apologized for the atrocities committed against the Serbian Orthodox Christians during the Ustasha regime.

In fact as you mention it, since the Ustasha used muslim mercenaries it could possibly said that they learnt their trade from the Catholics (Franscican monks in most cases).

Originally posted by Shadowflux
Flyers,

You are a troll of the highest order my friend, I'd almost respect that if it didn't annoy me so much. You're arguing with everyone on this thread yet you don't really have a stance or opinion on the subject. You just like to argue, I guess I can understand that.

Is she, really? She is a troll for defending her beliefs,eh? Wow, the next time ORTHODOX Christianity starts getting kicked around, and you or some other fundamentalist comes on here and tries to defend their beliefs, I think that's what I'll label him/her, a "troll." How's that sound?

Really, your assessment of Flyers is not really fair,and quite honestly, I think it is quite despicable that you would even say as much... By the way, no, I am not Catholic so don't even throw that card in there.





[edit on 12-7-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

Originally posted by duster
It's all a matter of how YOU lead your own life. A good Lutheran will make it to heaven a bad Catholic won't.

Bravo Duster. I see you're wise beyond your years.

AAC