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Pope Says, "Christian Churches not real Churches."

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posted on Jul, 11 2007 @ 07:30 AM
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Flyers Fan,

Well you certainly put alot of time and effort into that. Before I would respond, I'd have to be a bit more awake. Ye olde' brain is tired.

I will leave you with this parting thought: Many of the comments you see here from various people are covering 2 thousand years of catholic history and not just the latest profile.

The church is the body of believers. It isn't a building or a denomination but all who believe on Christ. This is the actual line of succession:

God/Jesus/Holy Spirit/
Husband
Wife
Children

No pastor or pope, is included, because the teacher is Christ through the Holy Spirit. The gathering of yourselves together is for edification. Not that pastoring is wrong, mind you, just that the premise that the person couldn't get there any other way than via a particular church system, is just not biblical.



[edit on 11-7-2007 by undo]




posted on Jul, 11 2007 @ 07:54 AM
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Originally posted by dbates


Matt 18:20 “For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.”

The pope is no more the head of Christianity than I am. His words mean nothing. Otherwise we would probably call it Popeianity instead of Christianity.




WOW..Couldnt have said it better myself...


Mod Note: One Line and Short Posts – Please Review This Link.
Mod Note: Please Stay on Topic


[edit on 11-7-2007 by DontTreadOnMe]



posted on Jul, 11 2007 @ 07:55 AM
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Originally posted by undo
...is just not biblical.

[edit on 11-7-2007 by undo]


and that little factoid right there should be enough to complete dismiss the Pope's statement as unworthy of consideration. But when you take into account it actually is in contradiction to the gospel, well that makes the Pope's statement a tremendous misleading of millions - like a false teacher, if you will. A promulgator of intolerance and false beliefs. Kind of anti-Christ like, I guess you could go so far to say.



posted on Jul, 11 2007 @ 08:00 AM
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Biggie, great post and I agree with you in whole. Churches were created so religion would have a central place to collect the money!!!! All Churches have shown me is that they are no better than the tax collector.

My grandmother passed a year or so ago, and this women was 93 years old and she tithed her entire life every week never missing a sunday mass. All she wanted when she died was for her funeral service to be held in the church with the alter close by and the stained glass window of Christ above her coffin.

Well the priest denied the request and stated that it was against the church policy to allow the service to happen in the church instead of the grave site. I hit the roof when I heard his words and promptly issued some of the nastiest language to ever come out of my mouth. I made it a point to yell my displeasure so all could hear just how the Catholic Church takes care of its most dedicated followers.

The church is nothing more than another business IMO. Please watch this!!!

Some may may not like Carlin but the man tells it like it is........ sorry.

www.youtube.com...



posted on Jul, 11 2007 @ 08:25 AM
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man this is long.

here's what I think you should do. first, ignore the pope is you read Nostradamus's proficies he states quite clearly that 'the church will fall with Peter the Roman', which is the pope's other name. if you pay atintion to what he's doing then you see that he is braking down the poundation of the Church. it is sure to fall.

second, it is not like when Jesus comes for us we all will be seeped up in a flash. if you read it says that first the Antichrist will come and pull millions to his cause, then he will begin to kill of believers finally he will try to take Jerusalem's, then Jesus will come.

as for me I'll moon the pope put on my hard hat and wait for the end.



posted on Jul, 11 2007 @ 08:32 AM
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I find organised religion has wandered far from its foundations. I have given up on all of them, whilst still keeping my belief in an ultimate being. The catholic hierarchy are not helping and never have done to unite and form acceptance of other theories of christianity.



posted on Jul, 11 2007 @ 08:36 AM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan


Originally posted by the_sentinal
the pope being a man could have the audacity to judge who is truly a spiritually regenerated being through their house of worship.

That's not what he said. You didn't read the article and you didn't read the thread, did you? FOR THE FOURTH TIME - he was talking about apostolic succession. He didn't say anything about people's spirituality. He was talking about apostolic succession.

His statement leaves little doubt about his own spiritual state in my opinion.

Since you don't understand the statement, and you don't understand why he said what he did or even what he was talking about then you can't possibly JUDGE (judge not lest ye be judged) his spiritual state.

[

[edit on 7/11/2007 by FlyersFan]


Sorry but, I do know what he said, the fact that he was talking about apostolic succession is a pretense, but Okay, what is apostolic succession?? is it not a spiritual succession?? are we to believe that this succession can only happen in the catholic church?? I think not.

As far as judgement (judge not lest ye be judged) yes thats the one everybody likes to throw around. but the bible also says if you do judge, to use righteous judgement,John 7:24 Don't judge according to appearance, but judge righteous judgment." what it is saying is : if you do judge you better be right in your judgement. in this case I think I am.

[edit on 11-7-2007 by the_sentinal]



posted on Jul, 11 2007 @ 08:44 AM
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Well, the Pope has historical evidence that the Catholic Church
(both the Western & Eastern) has a unbroken line & is the worlds
longest lasting institution....
There's been 21 Ecumenical Councils thru history:
what other denomination has such a track record??

[[??but does this history warrent the Pope to label other denominations as 'pretenders' , in so many words??]]

Nicaea ~325 AD
Constantinople I ~381
Ephesus ~431
Chalcedon ~451
Constantinople II ~553
Constantinople III ~681
Nicaea II ~787
Constantinople IV ~870
Lateran I ~1123
Lateran II ~1139
Lateran III ~1179
Lateran IV ~1215
Lyons I ~1245
Lyons II ~1274
Vienne ~1312
Constance ~1418
Florence ~1445
Lateran V ~1517
Trent ~1516
Vatican I ~1870
Vatican II ~1965


the continued succession of an 'apostolic' catholic church
appreciate the added emphasis by a few posters on 'Apostolic'
which is the RCCs identity & reason for existance...not just the gospel!


[edit on 11-7-2007 by St Udio]



posted on Jul, 11 2007 @ 08:51 AM
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Flyers Fan

Thank you for responding to my questions. I realise that you are attempting to defend your religion and that is admirable, I do not want to attack you personally and I hope that you realise that.

I simply cannot reconcile myself to the fact that it is okay to murder, rape and starve people as long as you confess. This is an abomination, this goes against everything that I believe in. I cannot believe that a Priest can speak to his 'flock' and spout hatred and violence and that this is okay. This to me is evil.

If successive Popes have set doctrine, like the the infallibility question, and they themselves have committed acts evil, how can the Church as a whole be good for it is built upon the thoughts of evil men.

Most of all though if the Church is so good, if it is right, then surely it should not need to torture people to convert, it should not need to murder the opposition. Good speaks for itself and so does evil.

While I can understand that the poor and ill-educated may fall for the lies, I am amazed that an otherwise intelligent individual as yourself does not question the morality of the Church. Or is it simply for the selfish reason that you only care for your own salvation and do not care how many people are murdered for your faith as long as you have a seat in heaven?

Again, I am genuinely at a loss for words, I do not intend the above remarks as an attack, I just find it so hard to understand. Did the Catholic Church abandon the ten commandments, does it not recognise the simple morality of these laws?

I have very little hope for humanity as long as the RCC exists. It saddens me beyond expression that so many follow.

One way or another, the truth of the matter is that we can neither disprove or prove that a god exists, as Alexander Shulgin said, even the Big bang theory requires at least two miracles to take place, we do not yet have all the answers. The best way in my opinion, is to live our lives without causing harm to others. If the Catholic Church preached this instead of insisting on their primacy and attempting to destroy opposing faiths, then the world would definately be a better place.

Afterall it is possible that all any of us get is this one life.

Best wishes



posted on Jul, 11 2007 @ 09:02 AM
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FlyersFan, I would also like to say that I know where you are coming from in this situation, I respect your desicion to defend what the pope has said, my wife is catholic, well ex-catholic, my mother inlaw is a practicing catholic and very faithful in the church she attends, I dont really think that either of them really compare what the catholic church teaches to what the bible actually says. my wife says she cannot go to the catholic church because she's been divorced and they wont accept her. whatever that means. anyway, if I've said anything that has offended you personally I apoligize, but I cant ignore what I believe to be a huge error in judgement on the pope's part, theologically speaking.





[edit on 11-7-2007 by the_sentinal]



posted on Jul, 11 2007 @ 09:07 AM
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I still don't understand what the Pope's motives are for releasing this statement. It is obviously divisive and intended to alienate and insult all non-Catholic Christians, I just can't see why he would want to do that. The last pope may have done a few things people didn't like but over all he never made waves like this. Anyone have any ideas? I don't really follow Catholic politics

Apostolic Succession is a moot discussion, it's an institution created by man. Jesus never set up a church, Jesus did not create the first Pope. The Vatican can trace their history back to the time of Jesus just like 99% of all rulers from the Dark Ages. "Divine Succession" was a means of justifying a monarch's rule in the eyes of his people. Most of the people he ruled over wouldn't understand the complex international issues that make him the best ruler, they only understand myth and fairy tale and thats what they gave them.

It's a hard concept to understand but the idea of freedom of thought and religion is a fairly new theology. 800 years ago people didn't have a choice in what they did with their lives, they worshipped where they were told to, worked where they were forced to and dressed as they were instructed to. The reason that the early non-Catholic churches closely followed many Catholic traditions is that they knew no other form of worship.

The common man had never read the Bible until Martin Luther translated it into German, in fact his translation set the basis for much of German grammar, bet you didn't know that lol

These days anyone can read a Bible and they can find one in a translation that relates to them. I personally prefer the KJV but I have many versions in my library. We can all read Jesus's words without the need for an intermediary explaining them to us. When we do that, we learn that what our church leaders have been teaching us is wrong. Churches teach the theology of man but the Bible itself teaches the work of Christ.

I think there should forever and always be a distinction made between Christian "religion" and institutions and the actual lessons of Jesus and those who follow them.

You can notice a true Christian by their quiet humility, their love and compassion for those around them, their adherance to the works and lessons of Jesus and by the fact that they probably won't display anything that would denote them as Christian.

IMO if you are a strict Catholic then you are not really a Christian as the majority of Catholic dogma has arisen from the church itself and not from scripture



posted on Jul, 11 2007 @ 09:44 AM
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Originally posted by kleverone
This coming from the guy who wears Prada shoes under his robe


You know what they say, Divide and conquer.


That is exactly what I was thinking when I read this BS, if the masses swallow this then they get exactly what they deserve.

I am so tired of the my religion is better than yours story or my religion is the right one.

Now sit back folks and watch the masses start to judge each other, on who is more righteous, and who is in the wrong.

Someone, some group or controller is trying to stir the masses.








[edit on 11-7-2007 by Realtruth]



posted on Jul, 11 2007 @ 10:08 AM
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Originally posted by Shadowflux
You can notice a true Christian by their quiet humility, their love and compassion for those around them, their adherance to the works and lessons of Jesus and by the fact that they probably won't display anything that would denote them as Christian.


Truer words were never spoken.

Similar words from a different source:


Jesus does not require his disciples to believe in him but rather to believe with him, believe in the reality of the love of God and in full confidence accept the security of the assurance of sonship with the heavenly Father. The Master desires that all his followers should fully share his transcendent faith. Jesus most touchingly challenged his followers, not only to believe what he believed, but also to believe as he believed. This is the full significance of his one supreme requirement, "Follow me."

Jesus' earthly life was devoted to one great purpose--doing the Father's will, living the human life religiously and by faith. The faith of Jesus was trusting, like that of a child, but it was wholly free from presumption. He made robust and manly decisions, courageously faced manifold disappointments, resolutely surmounted extraordinary difficulties, and unflinchingly confronted the stern requirements of duty. It required a strong will and an unfailing confidence to believe what Jesus believed and as he believed.

www.urantia.org...


www.urantia.org...



posted on Jul, 11 2007 @ 10:33 AM
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As soon as the Pope stops riding around in an armored car with bullet proof glass, he can make statements like that. The Catholic church must not have much confidence in the power of God. Of course, maybe thay are protecting themselves from Him.

I go along with the school of thought that God really could care less about what happens to us. It is a little egocentric to think that in all the universe, we are really so important.



posted on Jul, 11 2007 @ 10:43 AM
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Grady,

That quote of yours is absolutely brilliant, I think it says everything I've tried to say but in a more eloquent sense.

My favorite part of the quote is this:



The Master desires that all his followers should fully share his transcendent faith.


The word that stands out for me is "transcendent" as i have always believed the Christian faith to be one of transcendence and indeed my personal experience with faith in Jesus was transcendent before I got bogged down by church dogma and tradition. The Christian faith is focused on transcending this material world, the rising above of hate, greed and selfishness. The realization of something greater than the world we know.

Christianity is a deeply spiritual faith but is often kept imprisoned by the mundane, the earthly, the politics of the church. Jesus meant for us to have more than what we do, his message was one of love and compassion, not exclusivity and politics. Have we forgotten Jesus's anger at the money changers outside the Temple? Have we forgotten his condemnation of the religious leaders who horde God's love and keep from us the knowledge his lessons have taught? Have we forgotten his dismissal of the Rabbinical Law by which the pharisees sought to persecute him?

Christians are so bogged down by political debates, arguments over sexuality, fights over who should be in charge, when that is not what the Christian faith is about. Faith in Jesus is about the spiritual. He speaks of many things that may seem "magical" and "ridiculous" to many modern people but it's not their fault that they ridicule His teachings. Christians the world over have been led astray by the very thing Jesus sought to do away with. They attend a church that denies the second baptism, the "gifts of the Holy Spirit" and the true message of Jesus Christ.

Jesus' message, what we call the Gospel or "Good News" was that all, every last one, of your sins are forgiven, you are already saved by His blood on the cross. Jesus came to save us all, everyone of us, and that was his message. His lessons were meant to make this world a better place for all of us. He sought to do away with hate, with religious oppression, with arrogant religious leaders, with religious exclusivity, with judgmental doctrines and most importantly, He sought to do away with the disconnection between creation and Creator. Jesus taught us that we don't need an intermediary to speak with the Father, that He is our Father and we may talk to Him as Jesus did.

It is preposterous to suggest that the relationship between Creator and creation is anything but personal and individual.



posted on Jul, 11 2007 @ 10:54 AM
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Originally posted by Shadowflux
It is preposterous to suggest that the relationship between Creator and creation is anything but personal and individual.


It doesn't get any more succinct than that.

[edit on 2007/7/11 by GradyPhilpott]

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[edit on 11-7-2007 by DontTreadOnMe]



posted on Jul, 11 2007 @ 11:01 AM
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SpeakerofTruth,

I just got back to this thread and it would seem it has gone to many pages. Sorry to be so late in responding.

First, I do not go in for organized religion as it has been turned into something it wasn't meant to be. It has more to do with ritual than Faith and worship these days. My relationship is one of Faith not religion. To say that Christians don't understand is to assume that all Christians are involved in the misguided organized religion so often portrayed in media. There was a time when Organized Religion meant something and pleased God. I can't say that it has completely disappeared as there are still some out there doing the right thing. As Nondenominational Christians we try to steer clear of the classic trappings associated with organized religion.

Now, the question of assembly. Here is some scripture to demonstrate my point about being commanded to assemble:

Hebrews 10 states, “Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering…Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as you see the day approaching. For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins”

God instructed Moses to write, “…the feasts of the Lord, which you shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are My feasts. Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the Sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; you shall do no work therein: it is the Sabbath of the Lord in all your dwellings” (Lev. 23:2-3).

The Hebrew word for “holy convocation” is miqra, which means “something called out, an assembly, a reading.” This is a commanded assembly.

Psalms passages:
“Let them exalt Him also in the congregation of the people” (107:32), “Sing unto the Lord a new song, and His praise in the congregation of saints” (149:1), and “God is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the saints, and to be had in reverence of all them that are about Him” (89:7).

These scriptures show that we come together to sing praises to God as we learn to fear and reverence Him—and we are to do this with other brethren, assembled as the Church.

Finally, why would God send teachers out to preach the Gospel if He didn't expect people to assemble?

There is so much evidence of assembly in the Bible that I could quote for quite a while on the subject.



posted on Jul, 11 2007 @ 11:02 AM
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"A true lover of God is an optimist. He looks for and finds the bright side of things. He is able to extract sunshine from the darkest corner. He loves all life and carries a message of hope, and courage, and a helpful suggestion to all. He is broad and tolerant, merciful and forgiving, devoid of hate, envy, and malice, free from fear and worry. He minds his own business and grants all the same privilege. He is full of love, and radiates it to the entire world. He goes through life in his own sunny way, joyfully meeting things that drives others to despair and misery, he passes the stony road unharmed. His peace comes from within and all who meet him feel his presence. He doesn’t seek after friends or love, these things come to him, for this is his right; for he attracts them."

NEED ANYMORE BE SAID?

AAC



posted on Jul, 11 2007 @ 11:06 AM
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Could you please provide a link to, or a citation for, that quote?

[edit on 2007/7/11 by GradyPhilpott]



posted on Jul, 11 2007 @ 11:12 AM
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Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
Could you please provide a link to, or a citation for, that quote?

[edit on 2007/7/11 by GradyPhilpott]


Grady, it is an old occult scripture from a set of books by Yogi Ramacharacha. It is the very best description I have ever read, of a person I would love to become.


The text can be found in this online text, but it is a very obscure text so I couldn't find the exact place. But rest assured, it is within this link. Unfortunately, I don't know where, because I copied it from my book itself. Sorry.


Obscure Link

AAC



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