Atheist Chat

I found an excellent article for atheists on "Coming out of the closet." Enjoy!

Coming out of the closet� is a term most associated with gays and lesbians announcing to the world that they are homosexual. Few regret it, having found their way toward a more open and satisfying life.


But there is another closet which is hiding a different minority: atheists. Many of us, like many gays of previous decades, hide in the shadows due to fear of hostility and aversion to confrontations.

www.atheists.org...

Some of you have probably seen this movie and probably been involved with discussions about it here but I just wanted to post it in case you haven't.

www.zeitgeistmovie.com...

Although perhaps not ENTIRELY accurate, there are many interesting aspects to the formation of religion that it's hard to deny.

Originally posted by Alien42

* Dogs often adopt orphaned cats, squirrels, ducks and even tigers...


... * Walruses have been seen adopting orphans who lost their parents to predators.

en.wikipedia.org...

[edit on 7/18/2007 by Alien42]

Before I read your post, I honestly never heard of animals being altruistic. Dogs adopting cats, walruses taking in orphans, who would've known? I thought this impossible, since it goes against the principle of natural selection. Only the strongest species survive, hence survival of the fittest. Natural selection would have weeded out the animals who are altruistic since it is of no benefit to their species to help out other species. Especially if there is no personal gain to be had. Tell Charles Darwin that there once existed a case of a dog adopting a squirrel, and he would've scoffed at you.


Alas, you cannot argue with hard evidence. So thank you for bringing this forward, Alien42.

Hey B1ueSoldier, we haven't gotten along much, I've noticed, but I'd like to say kudos to you for what you just posted.

it's nice to find common ground once in a while, eh?

Originally posted by TheB1ueSoldier
Before I read your post, I honestly never heard of animals being altruistic... it goes against the principle of natural selection. Only the strongest species survive, hence survival of the fittest... Tell Charles Darwin that there once existed a case of a dog adopting a squirrel, and he would've scoffed at you.

Actually, he would not. Darwin was the ultimate empiricist. Before he accepted or rejected an idea he would observe, test, observe, test... sometimes for years. Do you know that 22 (if I recall correctly) years passed between his finishing The Origin of Species and the publication of it?

He was such an obsessive empiricist he even played piano to worms to see if they reacted to sound. Here's a short, interesting article on Darwin by the famous science writer Matt Ridley.

By the way, one of Ridley's books, The Origins of Virtue, shows how morality can arise from instinctive altruism, of which he discusses many instances in the animal kingdom and shows how altruistic behaviour is not automatically a disadvantage in fitness terms, but is often a strong selectiveadvantage.

Actually, altruistic behaviour in animals has been observed since prehistory and Darwin certainly knew about it. It was mysterious to him; he couldn't find a mechanism to explain it. This is because he knew nothing of the science of genetics, which had only recently been discovered by Mendel.

Another good book is Geoffrey Miller's The Mating Mind, a fascinating study on the power of sexual selection (basically, selective breeding that arises from the mating choices animals make) has a section on how this, too, can prompt altruistic behavioural instincts in animals.

Originally posted by TheB1ueSoldier
Now show me a single non-human animal that has done a moral act.

Sorry for returning this thread to a topic that has already been discussed, but i would just like to add some information to this statement that i feel is pertinent.

Having grown up on a cattle station in the far outback of northern australia, my entire life has been a partnership with two wonderful dogs. I can guarantee, (though i dont have the physical evidence) that on more than one occasion both of these animals, have not only saved me from physical harm, but they have done so with the full knowledge of what they were doing at the time.
One of these dogs is still with me now, there is not a person on this earth that could persuade me that this Dog does not love and care for his family.
Step up into the face of one of my children and i will show you an animal that has done a moral act.

meanwhile mojo is chewing one of my slippers to shreds.

[edit on 21/7/07 by mojo4sale]

Originally posted by MajorMalfunction
Hey B1ueSoldier, we haven't gotten along much, I've noticed, but I'd like to say kudos to you for what you just posted.

it's nice to find common ground once in a while, eh?

Though I may sound a bit harsh at times here on ATS, my goal is not to criticize or reject other's opinions. Ultimately, it is to learn. Although our opinions are at different ends, it does not mean we are enemies.

"I am loath to close. We are not enemies, but friends. We must not be enemies. Though passion may have strained, it must not break our bonds of affection. The mystic chords of memory, stretching from every battle-field, and patriot grave, to every living heart and hearth-stone, all over this broad land, will yet swell the chorus of the Union, when again touched, as surely they will be, by the better angels of our nature."

- Abraham Lincoln's Inaugural Address

Originally posted by mojo4sale
I can guarantee, (though i dont have the physical evidence) that on more than one occasion both of these animals, have not only saved me from physical harm, but they have done so with the full knowledge of what they were doing at the time.

Are you sure that the dogs weren't conditioned into doing tasks that seemed altruistic, but were actually just conditioning?

Originally posted by TheB1ueSoldier

Originally posted by mojo4sale
I can guarantee, (though i dont have the physical evidence) that on more than one occasion both of these animals, have not only saved me from physical harm, but they have done so with the full knowledge of what they were doing at the time.

Are you sure that the dogs weren't conditioned into doing tasks that seemed altruistic, but were actually just conditioning?

One hundred percent. One of the occasions was attacking and killing a venemous snake. Its natural instinct should surely have been to save its self and not me?

But hey you know the funny thing is i'm an atheist, and i have no physical evidence to prove it, so you'll just have to accept it on faith.

[edit on 21/7/07 by mojo4sale]

atheist to the core right here.
my family(what litle there is) know i am not about god or any of that stuff. when i was about 11, my mom married a guy and we moved to ohio and my world was flipped upside down. i went from never having any type of religious anything in my life, to having this stuff forced on me.
all of a sudden i had an aunt and an uncle that were hardcore religious folk. they would try to pump me with this stuff every chance.
then, i was made by my new step dad to go to the pentocostal church.
i HATED it....now i am 30 and have decent relations with my stepdad but i don't go anywhere where the extended family will be cause basically, i want to puke when they start to talk.
to this day they try to make me feel bad for all my tattoos, for drinking when i was younger, etc....

these same people found out their 18 year old daughter was pregnant. they basically forced her to get married and took her car from her so she could NOT continue going to the community college.
way to take care of your daughter eh?
i don't play all these ritualistic deals either.
everyone rises to say the pledge, i just sit.....
i don't pray at meals or anything like that. i won't.
if someone out in public starts to push their crap on me like happens all the time, i make it known real quick how i think what they are pushing is BS.

in the end, what turns me off the most is my wife and i just bought a house. we paid long money for this...we own it. private property.
except her parents and mine, the only 'visitors' we have had have been the jehovas.
first time i told them not to come back. the lady came back the same day with her husband and they asked me if i wanted to come to their house and talk about being saved.
i told them not to come back again. i got a no trespassing sign and a no soliciting sign. they cam back a 3rd time.
the last time was about 2 weeks ago. they tried to walk up to the house but my dog pinned them in the driveway.
i went out to eh poch and asked them what they were doing here again and they said that my wife(they said her name) requested that they come...in short, they lied.

so i can not even get away from this crap in my own home?

it really bothers me...

in the end, i think religion is a plague on this planet and i wish it would go away for ever....don't know how else to put it.
i can't stand it. i want nothing to do with it, yet i can't seem to escape it.

I think someone asked if we were out of the closet and/or if we'd ever suffered for our beliefs and I wanted to answer those questions.

I am out of the closet (I think I already answered that earlier) but when my parents were alive, I didn't talk to them about it because I wasn't sure what I believed. But if they had known that I didn't believe in God and all, they would have been VERY upset. And yes, I would have suffered. But since I didn't really cement my beliefs until after they died, I didn't have to deal with their pain and disapproval. So, I have never suffered for my beliefs. I'm sure plenty disapprove, but I don't care.

MM Did you watch Zeitgeist? At least the first 1/2 hour. It's really incredible.

i HATE it when people try to toss out the ole 'bible/religion is where we get our morals from'....that is simply not true.

one does not need the bible or any religious instruction to have morals....matter of fact, every single person on this planet has a different moral compass....i know i do.
sure there are things that i think are right and wrong but it's not cause the bible says so or the law says so. i kinda like to live my life on my terms you know...

i agree with major and have been saying it on these boards for a bit....we(humans) ARE an animal. we are a human animal....

you do know that people eat other people, kill and maim others, rape others....
you do know that there are priests with morals straight from the bible that are out there touching iddy bitty titty....you know this right?

why? cause they're human..
before they were a priest and before they learned their social behaviors, that were but a human being with instincts.....every single one of us have a different set of morals/values.....they may be very close to each other be we were all raised in a different way, by different people and put in different situations....how can we have the same compass?
hell, even the millions of bible followers can't agree on what is moral or not.

we have some that do not look down on homosexuals and then we have the folk that run sites like godhatesfags.com

it's across the spectrum cause we are animals. we are just an evolved animal. our big brains give us emotions and feelings but is that a good thing or is it a flaw?
don't know the answer to that one...

Hey, Boondock, welcome to the thread. Those Jay Dubs, they have a lot of nerve, don't they? I live in a secure apartment building. One day my phone rang (it's connected to the intercom). When I said hello, the voice downstairs (on the intercom, not in hell, though maybe someday they will be -- I joke, don't believe in hell either) says, "Can I come up and talk to you about some great news? People all over the world think it's the best, you won't regret it."

"Great news," huh? Yeah, heard it already and I think it's not great, just really unnecessary.

I told them no, go away, and hung up. Then I called my apartment manager to put them on alert.

Sure enough, it was a Jay Dub, they'd lied to another neighbor to get in the building, and management had to escort them out.

Now, what is wrong with this picture? Lying is a sin according to the Ten Commandments, and yet the Jay Dubs lie to gain access to your home.

Reminds me of nothing so much but a viral infection. Keep your god germs out of my house and my mind, thanks. I find the Jay Dubs to have a particularly loathesome version of Christianity, so I can totally relate.

And, BH, as to Zeitgeist, I have an issue with the speakers on my laptop, even with the USB speakers I bought. I have trouble hearing on the thing, and don't use my desktop much because it's in the bedroom with my baby son and I don't have a chance to watch movies until he's in bed generally.

I've tried to find it on Netflix, and of course it's not there. So I'm biding my time until the time is right to try to watch it when it's quiet and I'm not half asleep myself. In truth, I'm really looking forward to it.

This is a Jay Dubs Story, as told by my sister. I have replaced her husband's name with "hubby":

Today started out as a picture-perfect day… and then, once again, a troop of local Jehovah’s Witnesses strategically parked their cars and descended upon our unsuspecting neighborhood. Now, since our house occupies a hill-side lot with two addresses and a main entrance on the upper level from the street above and also one on the lower level from the street below, the Bringers-of-Salvation always come to our house – twice.

Lucky us.

This time, hubby was home alone when they launched their self-righteous invasion, and the first knock was at the upper level door. His mood was good, but not what you’d call super tolerant. One of the men with bibles started out with the usual line about how they had found something really wonderful in the “written word” that they would love to share (I’m sure you know the drill). Hubby stopped him short saying: “Excuse me, but what you’re implying is that YOU are somehow privy to information that the rest of us simply don’t have a clue about and, I gotta tell ya, I’m sick and tired of your arrogant hubris! Also, this Jehovah that you love to parade around before you … would this be a god of unconditional compassion?”

The man replied: “Yes, of course... BUT, only as long as his laws are adhered to” (or something to that effect)… To which hubby came back with: “No, no – it’s a simple ‘yes’ or ‘no’ question. Unconditional means UNCONDITIONAL! If there are conditions – ANY conditions, then this ‘god’ that you bow down to is an imposter, an interloper, and you are groveling at the feet of a complete fraud!”

That, not surprisingly, rendered the guy flustered and pretty much speechless and, backing away, he mumbled something like: “Sorry for bothering you.” At that point, hubby was thinking to himself: Yeah, no doubt!

Well, hubby proceeded to go downstairs to put a load of clothes in the washer. He was preparing to take a shower, so he went ahead and took off his shorts, the only item of clothing he was wearing at the time, and threw them in with the wash-load. Just as he was about to head back upstairs, knock #2 sounded on the lower level front door.

He knew, both from previous experience and the fact that he could see who was at the door through the blinds on the window just to the left of it, that it was two more members of the “imposter’s” Holy Salvation Team; a younger woman accompanied by a more elderly lady. At first he was going to just ignore them, but then he thought: Dammit! Enough of this BS! So, he walked up to the door, totally butt-naked, swung it wide open and, with hands on hips, said with obvious irritation: “WHAT?!!”

The two women at the front door were understandably shocked, as was indicated by their eyes popping out of their sockets on little springs. The elderly one sputtered something like: “Oh, my God” … as both of them quickly turned and proceeded to beat a hasty retreat.

Hubby hollered after them: “Hey, you show up at my door uninvited, you get what you get!” And as they scurried away, he yelled out: “Make a note of it!”

So, did his ploy work? Well, only time will tell. Either they and their ilk will cautiously avoid our house in the future or… who knows - maybe they’ll start showing up more often! But, in any event, I’m sure they’ll be a meetin’ at the ole Kingdom Hall tonight!



[edit on 22-7-2007 by Benevolent Heretic]

this is a post from someone on my forum...i am debating this very thing over there....he is a religious dude but not a fanatic...here is his post
-----------

You know what? You're right, man...

It's your home, nobody should be allowed within 150 yards of your home, in fact, you should just give it a name and call it a nation...maybe join the UN...that's the ticket, what the hell...you could have all the freedom back that you've lost as a US citizen....I mean really why should a christian be allowed to walk up your sidewalk?...if your home was it's own nation, you could call it an invasion and shoot somebody...

The plain and simple is this...just because you have a sign in front of your house does not mean that somebody has to respect it, yes, it's rude, and yes, it sucks....but, unless you are willing to use the law against what you perceive as injustice, you really don't have a leg to stand on in terms of expecting a resolution...this doesn't just pertain to chrstians, it pertains to atheists, vacuum cleaner salesmen and amway members....

...make it known to local authorities that you don't want to be bugged by these people trespassing on your property and get the law on your side...

I know what you're rebuttal is going to be "This is my home, I shouldn't have to do this, I have a right to be left alone"...

Well, the internet should be free and I should be able to ride a horse through downtown...but, I would catch hell for doing it...so, I don't...

You expect this abuse to just stop because you're an atheist, well, it is the real world...and unless you live in the mountains like grizzly adams...people are going to cross your path...they do share the world with you...

so, ruck up, gird the loins and make them regret that they keep bugging you...maybe they'll stop, maybe they won't...
------------------


hilarious ain't it.....silly me to think that in the home i own, the home i paid long money for, i would not have to deal with this.....
yet, i do....they are th eonly ones that come a knockin...
instead of just respecting my property, i'm supposed to call the law. i'm supposed to get a restraining order....bunch of crapola....

thought you'd like that post

Ah wo/man (have to be PC :lol I miss out on all the good threads in the beginning, oh well,
I suppose staring late is better than not starting at all.


I, when someone asks say I am an Atheist, since it takes to long to explain,
and really for all intent and purposes I am.



On a side note, I'm glad I live in one of top two most liberal states, since I came out of
the closet on being both an Atheist and gay, well bi, but that whole subject is to large,
and deserving of it's own thread.

i like this pic.....fedor by armbar

Heh, BH. Tell your sister's husband, salud!

I ran one Jay Dub off once with my boa constrictor. The snake's cage was near the door. The guy knocked and asked me if he could talk to me about the serpent. I told him to hold on, then got my boa and asked him if my snake could listen too.

He left in a hurry.

They had the nerve to show up at our door on Christmas one year. My stepdad just slammed the door in their faces, and it took nearly a year before they came back that time.

I knew only a little about the JWs, this bit here:

Jehovah's Witnesses believe that only 144,000 people will go to heaven to rule with God and Jesus. The remainder of the righteous will enjoy paradise on earth - a restored Garden of Eden in which there is no sickness, old age, death or unhappiness.

www.religionfacts.com...

So I guess heaven's full already? IF there've been 144,000 righteous folk EVER.

This bit I didn't know:

A belief that is unique to Jehovah's Witnesses is that the eschatological events predicted in Revelation began in 1914. This is when God gave Jesus his Kingdom, and Jesus has been ruling from heaven ever since. At this time Jesus threw Satan and his demons out of heaven and down to earth, which is why, according to Witnesses, the world has been getting progressively worse since 1914.

Jehovah's Witnesses look forward to a theocracy, in which all human governments are abolished and God rules the entire earth himself. This is expected to occur soon. Although Witnesses once predicted specific dates for this event, they now state that "the Bible does not give a date for these events, but it provides evidence to show that we are living in 'the last days' of this troubled world."

Well, gotta give them credit at least, for ceasing to move the goalpost when the prophecy doesn't come true on time.

Why 1914? I wonder ...

Atheists.
Even though I believe in God, I don't believe you need to believe in God, for salvation, if there is such as thing. I prefer to believe so, for my own personal reasons. However, I will never tell you how to believe.

I believe the Christians, like the ones I've been debating with here

and

here

are the true problem, and the reason for many moving away from God, if they ever did believe.

I think it's time I expose them for who they are.

I'm not saying they are all like this, but this is the core belief system, and quite frankly, they are some pretty paranoid people. These are people who think they are so right with God, they put themselves above everybody else.

I think believers and non-believers need to step back and quit fighting. No one has the right to force there beliefs on anyone, period.

I call it BLIP
Beings Living In Peace

PS. My name in the Christian Forum is oneofGod.

[edit on 22-7-2007 by stompk]

[edit on 22-7-2007 by stompk]