Micheal Moore's SICKO gets *Thumbs Up* from fact checkers.

You eliminate the excessive lawsuits and thier number you would go along way towards reducing costs.

At my hospital the number of compliance / legal / risk managment actually outnumber the Registered Nurses on the staff and we have 2300

Now if gross malpractice took place then people are entitled to compensation, but some of these suits are frivlous to say the least

Originally posted by xmotex
If you haven't noticed yet, we're in much the same boat (arguably much worse) with regards to deficit spending, despite not having a decent public healthcare system.

And as far as corporations vs. governments goes - governments are at the least accountable to the voters, corporations are accountable to no-one except their shareholders.

Im not arguing for our system. Our system is no good. But NHS is not the way to go is what I am saying.

Well I wouldn't want to clone someone else's system either.

But the private system we have now is staggeringly corrupt, hideously expensive, and leaves a lot of people out in the cold.

I saw the movie, for every one that comments with negative remarks on this movie I would say ....see the movie first and then comment.
From americans crosing the border to Canada for treatment to 911 emergency workers such as fire fighters that were in need of medical atention after the goverment refused to help them out, this movie almost made me cry, there trully are evil people in this world with intrests.

It would be nice to see the US on a universal healthcare program, you guys really need it, it's simply unaceptable to pay tens of thoulsands of dolars for your health, it's the most important thing ..more important than the anti-terrorism budged I would say.





[edit on 4-7-2007 by pepsi78]

I just watched it, and it made me cry.
Outstanding film

I'm using the CNN article (see link in OP's first post) for all quotes.
Link

To understand where I'm coming from you need to know I consider spin, exaggeration, taking out of context and fibs to be bald faced lies. A lie is a lie and whenever an influential person engages in these things they are liars and should never be trusted under any circumstances and an intelligent person would ignore any thing they have to say.

Having said that -

Moore opens his film by giving these statistics, "Fifty million uninsured Americans

An obvious exaggeration because the number was inflated for shock value. A tactic often used by liars.

43.6 million, or about 15 percent of Americans

The truth and the number he should have used. The highest number of uninsured in recent history is 44 million so that is no excuse for the lie either. He lied because that is what he does. He could have given accurate numbers but he chose to lie. Why? Sensationalism! Why? To put more money in his pocket. To me that means he cares more about money than truth. That is of course the mindset of a Confidence Man.

The United States spends more than 15 percent of its GDP on health care -- no other nation even comes close to that number. France spends about 11 percent, and Canadians spend 10 percent.

This is a classic example of a liars tactics. This is used to imply that we spend more and get less. That is not the truth. The truth is much of this extra cost is due to the fact we pay higher prices for drugs and medical equipment. Why? Because we, the horrible Americans, are getting stuck with most of the research and development costs and others are taking advantage of that. To bad the countries with Socialized Medicine can't or won't pay their fair share of R&D costs. We get stuck with the bill and they benefit.


I also tend to believe my eyes and ears. A few years ago I had to spend time in Grand Forks, North Dakota on a contract. I had an accident and badly hurt my ankle. I sat down with the Yellow Pages and called every Clinic and Physician in the entire area. It took me three days before I could see a doctor. Why? It was a Canadian Holiday Weekend and every doctor in easy reach of the border was overrun with Canadians seeking medical care and elective surgeries! Somebody is lying, or all these Canadians would not be pouring over the borders to get health care.

Of course it is not exactly a secret that CNN is in the Far Lefts pocket. Them saying Moore is being honest is exactly the same as Michael Moore saying Michael Moore is honest

Why is it Moore can break the law in his going to Cuba and nothing happens to him? If I did that I'd be in deep trouble. Why is Moore immune from the law. Is he better than us and above the law? He would not give his fans the time of day if he did not want your money

Blain, your whole post was a blatant example of biased flaming. Did you even watch the moive? Or are you just a flat out Moore hater? I don't care for moore either, but face it, it is the healthcare industry that needs to be scrutinized, not moore.

And you're entire post is subjective and has no real value besides your obviously biased opinion.

AAC

I think he's wrong anyway, so he might have just done what he accuses Moore of doing:

THE NUMBER OF UNINSURED AMERICANS IS AT AN ALL-TIME HIGH

Data released today by the Census Bureau show that the number of uninsured Americans stood at a record 46.6 million in 2005, with 15.9 percent of Americans lacking health coverage. “The number of uninsured Americans reached an all-time high in 2005,” said Robert Greenstein, executive director of the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities. “It is sobering that 5.4 million more people lacked health insurance in 2005 than in the recession year of 2001, primarily because of the erosion of employer-based insurance.”

www.cbpp.org...
www.census.gov...


I think Moore has just rounded the numbers up. I guess if the trend of the last few years continued (@ about 1 million a year increase since 2002), it would be approx 48.6 million in 2007.




[edit on 13-7-2007 by melatonin]

Imagine THIS:

In 1992 I took out a PPO on myself. The monthly premium was $187.00 because I was 47 years old, with no prior serious surgeries, diseases, and in good health.

Three years later, with no warning, I was stricken with Rheumatoid Arthritis. The PPO couldn't claim it was pre-existing, and they couldn't cancel the policy, so they doubled my monthly premium.

For the past 12 years I have watched my prescription co-pays and doctor visit co-pays and blood monitoring co-pays raise substantially, right along with my premiums. My yearly premiums are now over $10K per year.

The R.A. drugs that prevent further deterioration of my joints are known, over a long length of time, to often cause liver/kidney damage, acid reflux, abdominal problems, and there are new injectibles that bypass being procesed through the digestive tract, so two years ago when I first began showing acid reflux problems, my doctor attempted to change me to one of the injectible treatments. My PPO denied coverage, saying that at my age then (59) acid reflux is a natural part of aging, and there was no significant evidence to support the doctor's claim that the R.A. ingestibles were responsible for the problem.

Now I'm 61. I have had a rapid decline in my health since January 2007. The acid reflux is chronic, but my PPO will not cover Nexium for which I've been paying $200/cash per month since last September (2006). Now my physician wants me to take two Nexium capsules a day. That's $400/cash per month I must shell out, on top of the $871.00 PPO premium. I have lost 16 pounds since March (I WAS 106 lbs. -- now I'm at 90 lbs. because the heartburn prevents me from finishing a full meal.

My doctor ordered x-rays, an MRI, and an endocsopy. The x-rays didn't reveal anything difinitive. The MRI showed I have osteoporosis, but the Boniva and Fosomax aggravate the already debilitating heartburn, so he's taken me off of those two drugs until we can obtain a better diagnosis of the damage from the R.A. medications. Imagine my surprise when the morning I was to have the endoscopy, I was informed that my PPO was refusing to cover the cost of the anesthesia and the anesthesiologist! I had to put $700 on my credit card before the endoscopy could be done!

Now the doctor wants to do a CT Scan. And, guess what? My PPO says since none of the other tests revealed anything life-threatening, they find no valid reason to cover the cost of a CT Scan, even though they know I'm unable to eat enough to maintain my current weight, and I will continue to lose weight unless we find a way to stop the acid reflux and determine if there are other problems not yet determined with my stomach and intestinal tracts. They have advised me to pay cash for the CT Scan, and go through arbitration to see if the PPO is obligated in the end to reimburse me for any of the costs. Oh, but, I shouldn't forget to make my $871.00 monthly premium payment on time!

I estimate that over the past 8 years I've paid the PPO more than $70K in premiums, and my out-of -pocket expenses for co-pays and other things runs nearly $5K/year up to now...

Truthfully, I don't have the money to pay the cost of the CT Scan, so I will have to go through a lengthy arbitration (it may take 90 days) which adds even more stress to my languishing health. And there is no relief for the digestive problems or the continued loss of weight in sight, nor will the cost of the Nexium or a change in R.A. medications be considered until the testings left to do can determine what I need treated, and how best to do it.

Meanwhile, I have no energy, I can't do housework, I can't do much shopping for food or have the strength to cook more than one meal a day. I have no money to get a housekeeper, but I can't quality for any County or State or Federal programs because ... I already have insurance.

Don't try to tell ME our healthcare for-profit system isn't out of touch with reality!

Originally posted by Tweaked
I have had a rapid decline in my health since January 2007. The acid reflux is chronic.

I suggest you hold the pharmaceuticals and see a spiritual counsellor. For the reflux drink a solution of manuka honey and cider vinegar.

Originally posted by AnAbsoluteCreation
Blain, your whole post was a blatant example of biased flaming. Did you even watch the moive? Or are you just a flat out Moore hater? I don't care for moore either, but face it, it is the healthcare industry that needs to be scrutinized, not moore.

My bias is I hate liars who have power. Moore has power and he lies. I explained that I consider spin or exaggeration a lie which is intellectually honest. Moore is a Spin Master. Flaming no. Biased yes. A bias regarding people who use peoples emotions and fears to line their pockets.

I did not comment on the state of US health-care other than we are paying to much so that other countries can pay less. Because of that our insurance is high and Small Business cannot afford coverage. I'm a victim of that myself.

Moore could have done an honest Documentary and not have violated the law by going to Cuba on a business venture, but he chose not to do that. He certainly has that right as a human but the authorities should have treated him the same as everyone else. What about him makes him so special he can thumb his nose at the law? I happen to think the law is wrong but it is the law.

I find this interesting and it applies -
External Source Link

In two Cuban hospitals I visited, the lack of the most basic materials was pathetic. Hospital personnel were begging me for anything I had that could be used to help the sick. One hospital asked me for dental floss because they'd run out of suture material.

But in "Sicko," Cuba has it all. One of Moore's companions needs a specialized $150 inhaler. She walks into a Cuban pharmacy and—voila!—she easily finds the inhaler. In fact, she buys three for about 5 cents each!

Another source of my "bias" is a friend I made while starting out in my first management position. I started out as the Night Manager of a Minimal Care Institution.

The first night the owner was there to orient me and introduce me to the night staff. He noticed I did not have a watch on. He scolded me and made it clear I was to have a watch on the next day. My watch had stopped working and the suits and clothing I had to buy had wiped me out. I literally did not have the money to buy a watch. The man who cleaned the institutions kitchen, dining hall and common areas at night overheard. After the owner left this man walked over to me and took the watch off his arm and put it on mine. That started my friendship with this incredible man.

He was a Political Refugee from Cuba. A brilliant well educated man mopping floors! He was in "hiding". Placed there by the US Government for his protection. Castro had butchered his entire family and he was the only one to make it out alive. He grew to trust me and seemed grateful to have someone to talk to about the horrors Castro had put his family through.

This man was a devout Christian and I doubt I'll ever meet a more loving and caring individual. The stories he confided in me made me an enemy of Castro and his Thugs for all time. Anyone who is an apologist for Cuba under Castro or Castro is by definition one of his Thugs in my mind. Evil attracts evil.

I confess to my "bias" in regards to Cuba with pride. I will cede that Moore may have been a victim of false front put up by the Dictator Castro's Government. I suspect he was a willing participant though.

Excuse the late reply but no internet left me with few options.

Originally posted by grimreaper797
See there is this thing, it is called cause and effect.

And when it comes to politics and human beings in general it's a VERY casual relationship.

When you take X amount of dollars to pay for health care, X amount of dollars must come from somewhere.

That is presuming a gold standard of basically discounting inflation, deflation and all the other things that results from governments , such as the American one, who have been printing money at breakneck speed for decades now.

Where does it come from? Well the rich will have to pay grossly large taxes, and even still you would haven an unbalanced budget.

The rich are paying ever less much as the corporations are and it's just a lie that the rich are frequently anywhere near negatively affected ( OMG, no new private plane or car this year!!) by taxes as the vast majority of working poor who do pay taxes while busy starving to death.

Tell me how you plan to raise enough money to afford free healthcare? Where is this money coming from?

The taxpayers? There is plenty of money for 'defense' budgets and for corporate subsidies, and massively so for private health care and pharmaceutical giants who's patents are protected by government regulations, so why pretend that there is no money for national health care programs?

The rich? Have you taken into account what will happen as a result of this taxation, or lack there of?

The majority of the rich can pay twice as much taxes as they do now without noticing ( if everyone had less money to spend prices for everything would fall given proper protective measures) and i have always wondered why so much energy are expended to 'defend' those who can hire very good lawyers, legal teams or at all afford to take part in a legal system that protects the have's from the have nots

You will decimate the economy with creating a balanced budget free health care system.

Explain why this would happen while so many countries spend so much money on 'defense' without destroying their economies?

This isn't a prediction, its common sense.

Common sense rarely 'works' without the ability to observe reality effectively.

When you heavily tax the upper class, they are going to stop spending money.

No one cares if they buy one less car this year or can only afford three of four vacations a year. Spa's don't create very many jobs and neither do making cars.

The poor are trying to make ends meet. Good luck with the economy.

The poor are trying to make ends meet because the very rich are manipulating the system in such a way they they just never quite manage to. At the very least we should tax them far more heavily and make them stay in the country the earned their riches in.

Also, have you taken into account the idea these people may simply stop working hard?

Why should people work hard for pathetic salaries that allows them nothing but basics? Why should the rich be able to sit on their behinds while hundreds slave away in their factories for cents per hour?

What's the point of working hard if you can blow it off and get the same services?

What's the point of a system where people work twelve hours a day and still starve? If your rich it makes a great deal of sense to keep others poor so they will be forced to work for however little you wish to pay them and why would anyone but the very rich of the stupidly ignorant want to be part of such a system?

work hard, get taxed ridiculously. Don't work hard, get services from the government.

The vast majority of the worlds people work very hard for almost no return and if you call sitting behind a desk hard work i suggest working with a shovel all day and returning to your cold, dank hovel at night to share whatever food you could afford with your wife and kids and the older family members who were worked into a condition where they are no longer any good with shovels. People behind desks may be 'exploited' ( working for pay is being exploited as your worth more to them than they are paying you) but the argument that they work 'hard' is nonsense. I have done both and frankly you can take pills for headaches you might get from thinking a bit too hard in your air conditioned cubicle. I'm not saying people behind desks should not demand more but that do understand that they have already achieved a great deal and that the vast majority of the worlds population would LOVE to be in their lucky positions as can easily be proved by looking at the rise of SEA manufacturing and business services.

Which do you think most people are going to choose? Just use commonsense when looking at the issue.

People will choose whatever opportunity allows them self respect and the chance to arrive at economic level where they feel content. To keep them poor so they may work harder to make the rich even richer is quite twisted and not a view the average worker ( which i won't presume you to be considering your opinions) holds or aspires to.

Entitlements simply don't work.

So why do the rich get such vast tax breaks&subsidies, government and legal protections for their economic crimes while the poor gets thrown in jail when they try to break out of the economic restraints imposed on them? Once the entitlements and corporate welfare programs stops we can discuss if such is absolutely essential for 'the people' but until then the system should be fair and reward both groups equally for not doing any 'real' work.

Ok so you have created a balanced budget and implemented the free healthcare system. How do you plan to address the increasing population problem?

There is no such thing as 'population problems' and only mismanagement, theft and suppression of large parts of the population. In a system where people are allowed to educate themselves and do the best they can each individual adds to the countries potential for wealth ( why is the US so relatively rich with 300 000 million while countries with only a few tens of millions experience such poverty? Would Americans get richer or poorer with half the workers gone?) and i don't want to hear that nonsense about 'overpopulation' when this world has been producing enough food for everyone since the 70's despite the best efforts of the west to destroy the worlds poor farmers chance to make a living of their own produce by flooding the world with very cheap food that can be used for political ends by central governments everywhere.

Are we going to start limiting families one child per family?

Only if your against human progress and believe in lies such as 'peak oil', 'global warming', especially the group that suggests it's our fault, general resource scarcity and the supposed fact that the best we can do is wind power or nuclear/fusion energy.

This is what I had about these entitlement programs. They don't give a rats ass about the long term future of our country,

It the our central governments created opportunities so that people were not perpetually robbed while working so hard the people would not require so much assistance and programs that pretends to help them where they supposedly could not. People WANT to be self reliant but give the fact that opportunities are not granted them and that their pride can and does kill their families people will start to look for economic aid of any variety. We do not need welfare but if our governments refuses to address our economic grievances, while giving tax breaks to the rich and doing all they can to keep the wealthy wealthy, why should we not stand in line to get back some of the taxes we paid? How can it be that so many corporations receive more tax dollars in government grants and subsidies( your money ) than they pay in taxes?

so long as they get the feel-good moral forfilment from saying they made a difference and helped some people get healthcare,

Since they are already helping the very rich get richer why should we fight them when they are sometimes forced to make concessions that benefits the average worker?

when in reality what they did is take the future of our country and flush it down the toilet to give the less fortunate what they felt was entitled to everyone.

They were and still are doing that and making a few concessions to the poor is not going to change a damn thing in their long range planes so lets force them to make as many concessions as they can. With some luck they will run out of resources or money to give to the very rich.

Entitlements will never work in a long term, ever. Its not predictions, its commonsense.

I should probably make a list of reforms and concessions people gained by fighting their governments but i think it should suffice to point out that the entirety of human history proves you to be dead wrong. Entitlements are not something politicians 'give' the public because their such nice considerate people but things the people fight to tear from the greedy paws of the rich and powerful.

Entitlements create unbalance which will get balanced out one way or another.

And to even begin balancing the proverbial books we need to get rid of socialism for the and welfare for the rich and capitalism and regressive taxes for the poor.

Stellar

Originally posted by Fett Pinkus
But that does not explain why the same medicine could be so cheap does it?

That is an extreme price difference

and Moore used it to show how greedy and profit orientated the US Pharma industry and the Health insurerers really are.

First of all, Moore not only lied but he was in cahoots with a Communist dictatorship.... somehow there are people in here that don't want to understand what that means, and are willing to forgive the lies of Moore just because of his political leanings nothing more and nothing less"...

Lying about what happens in a dictatorship, and making exagerations about other healthcare system without bringing out the problems those same systems are having as we speak does not help bring out the problems or help solve the problems with the American healthcare system...

Some of you are talking about Americans who are left out, well Moore left out some of the 9/11 workers who were promised they would be taken care of also..... but of course, those who have the same political leanings as Moore have to overlook the lies and exagerations he makes...

The infraestructure of every country depends on the standard of living of every country, and prices of items and products will reflect that standard of living...

The basic salary in Cuba, for the average person, is about 200-300 Cuban pesos a month or so, which is no more than maybe around $7.50 - $11.50
USD a month. Some other jobs pay a bit more, such as doctors get paid around $20- $22 USD a month.

A lot of people in Cuba have to depend on the black market to survive and not to buy luxury items cheaper...

Another point that I was making, but which for some reason there are some members and even staff members who want to claim the contrary, in Cuba regular Cubans can't just go to the first pharmacy and get whatever medicine they need...they depend on their family living outside of Cuba to send them medicines because the medicines are reserved for the rich foreigners, and those who are part of the Cuban regime..

There are hundreds of first hand accounts from Cuban doctors who have left the island and Cubans who left the island and talk about the real situation there. Pharmacies and "bodegas" (stores) for the regular Cubans are empty most of the time in Cuba.

As i have said before if Moore would have actually not lied and been in cahoots with the Cuban dictatorship, or even he he hadn't left out the problems with the healthcare systems he claims in that video are so perfect, i wouldn't be criticizing this latest stunt by Moore.

[edit on 25-7-2007 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by melatonin
The NHS may not be perfect, but I wouldn't swap it for the American system any day of the week. Wouldn't even dream of it.

I watched this last night, I was pretty much shocked. The people Moore's focuses on actually had insurance but were well and truly f***ed over by money grabbing insurance companies.

You pay twice as much and seem to get less of an outcome in many ways. I can't believe people actually defend the current system.

Profit and health care do not mix well IMHO.

I don't think anyone is claiming there are no problems with the U.S. healthcare system, but changing to a NHS means more taxes and much lower salaries.

In many of those countries where there are NHS people get paid much less than in places like the U.S., and the NHS is not perfect either.

I lived in Spain for almost 10 years with my parents, and my parents had to spend most of their money on my medical bills, not that they were being paid a lot either since we were foreigners, I had problems with my teeth and my jaw when I was a child you could put two fingers together inside my mouth and I wouldn't be able to bite you, which didn't leave much for the rent and we had to live for many years in the attic of a house where half of it had a plastic roof...

In Winter we had to really bundle up, and when my mother had to put the clothes she washed to dry, inside the house in a clothesline, the clothes would be stiff frozen by the next morning... My mother would literally had to beat out the ice from the clothes.

Many other foreigners lived, and still live in similar situations in countries like Spain, so don't tell me that BS that a NHS, or that "socialist programs" don't leave anyone without health insurance or the basic needs, because that is not true.

[edit on 25-7-2007 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by AnAbsoluteCreation

Michael Moore's "Sicko," which opened nationwide Friday, is filled with horror stories of people who are deprived of medical service because they can't afford it or haven't been able to navigate the murky waters of managed care in the United States.

It compares American health care with the universal coverage systems in Canada, France, the United Kingdom and Cuba.

(visit the link for the full news article)

It was actually mostly about people who don't have health insurance. That article appears to be disinfo masquerading as a pro-SiCKO piece.

Originally posted by Muaddib
I don't think anyone is claiming there are no problems with the U.S. healthcare system, but changing to a NHS means more taxes and much lower salaries.

Actually it wouldn't have to mean more taxes, but in our (publicly accepted)system of inequality driven domination by systematic design, that's what would result.

That's a great film (piece of propaganda), really, but this is a troubling issue for me. You see we've been subjected to nearly 100 years of multi-generational taxation and institutionalized dumbing down and I'm quite certain that if it weren't for such domestic economic imperialism the masses wouldn't be so abused and depleted to need such a system that ensures everyone needs federal "care". But as it stands it's needed and fast. I hope you're all proud of the truth that American (militaristic global) Hegemony has created for US all, because that's the cause of it all.

Originally posted by IgnoranceIsntBlisss

Actually it wouldn't have to mean more taxes, but in our (publicly accepted)system of inequality driven domination by systematic design, that's what would result.

Ohh right, so i guess such a system would just pay itself out of thin air then?

Originally posted by IgnoranceIsntBlisss
That's a great film (piece of propaganda), really, but this is a troubling issue for me. You see we've been subjected to nearly 100 years of multi-generational taxation and institutionalized dumbing down and I'm quite certain that if it weren't for such domestic economic imperialism the masses wouldn't be so abused and depleted to need such a system that ensures everyone needs federal "care". But as it stands it's needed and fast. I hope you're all proud of the truth that American (militaristic global) Hegemony has created for US all, because that's the cause of it all.

Wow, somehow i knew someone would find a way to blame this also on "U.S. Imperialism".... it wasn't Moore's fault that he lied , it has been "U.S. Imperialism" which caused Moore to lie......

Sounds similar to criminals not wanting to take responsibility for "their own actions" and instead wanting to claim "it was society, or my parents who made me commit that crime"....

Anyways, to me it is more troubling when people are able to condone Moore, and are more than ready to believe every lie he makes, even if it includes "claiming the healthcare system of a dictatorship is better than that of the U.S.".... or even that "the U.S. healthcare system can learn from the healthcare system of a DICTATORSHIP.....

As for taxation, in any society there will always be a need for a system which would pay for any, and every public service which takes care of cleaning the streets, repairing streets and other public property, unless some people think that no society needs to take care of public property, highways, streets, cleaning up cities etc, etc...


[edit on 26-7-2007 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by Muaddib
I don't think anyone is claiming there are no problems with the U.S. healthcare system, but changing to a NHS means more taxes and much lower salaries.

In many of those countries where there are NHS people get paid much less than in places like the U.S., and the NHS is not perfect either.

I'm sure that wages are higher in many, or maybe even most, professions in the US.

However, I don't worry too much about that, standard of living is not bad here, and I worry more about the welfare of people across the board, guess I must have socialist leanings

And if we use measures of poverty, the US doesn't come out much better (worse on some measures) than most well developed European countries.

And without doubt, the NHS is far from perfect. But I like to know that old Fred down the road won't need to become bankrupt to have essential healthcare.

By the sounds of it, if you were having trouble paying for healthcare in Spain at the time, it was likely not a socialised healthcare system.

I've spent a lot of time in Spain myself, long summer holidays in my youth - near Alicante, love the place.

Originally posted by Muaddib
Ohh right, so i guess such a system would just pay itself out of thin air then?

One TRILLION dollars per year is spent on dominating the rest of the globe.

it wasn't Moore's fault that he lied ,

Um, what did he lie about?

it has been "U.S. Imperialism" which caused Moore to lie......

If it wasn't for the blue sky military budgets and 100 years of unconstitutional taxation to support it, and to weaken the public (domestic imperialism) Moore wouldn't have to have made that film because it wouldn't even be a significant issue.

"claiming the healthcare system of a dictatorship is better than that of the U.S.".... or even that "the U.S. healthcare system can learn from the healthcare system of a DICTATORSHIP.....

They do take care of their people better pretty much everywhere else but here... and who said that our corrupt and illegitimate system isn't in fact a de facto dictatorship (even before Dubya)??

As for taxation, in any society there will always be a need for a system which would pay for any, and every public service which takes care of cleaning the streets, repairing streets and other public property, unless some people think that no society needs to take care of public property, highways, streets, cleaning up cities etc, etc...

Sounds like the same kind of socialism Moore is talking about.

Look at the national debt ($NINE TRILLION$), and the trillion dollars per year spent on the military to undermine global democracy, and then please try to justify the unconstitutional taxation that occurs. By definition that debt is slavery. You're literally justifying your own enslavement, and the domination and suffering of virtually the entire globe.

Originally posted by Stellar
That is presuming a gold standard of basically discounting inflation, deflation and all the other things that results from governments , such as the American one, who have been printing money at breakneck speed for decades now.

Heh?.... Every country in this world, which has a healthcare system, has some sort of program which pays for that healthcare system... In countries with socialist programs is higher taxes, in a country like the U.S. is a capitalist system where there is competition, and there is corruption in "both".... but some people try to claim differently for some reason...

Originally posted by StellarX
The rich are paying ever less much as the corporations are and it's just a lie that the rich are frequently anywhere near negatively affected ( OMG, no new private plane or car this year!!) by taxes as the vast majority of working poor who do pay taxes while busy starving to death.

Unfortunately most people in the world, and that includes rich people, tend to be greedy... how many of the Holllywood stars make claims about "we have to save humanity, blah, blah, blah, yet they are still rich meanwhile there are billions who are poor?....

Originally posted by StellarX
The taxpayers? There is plenty of money for 'defense' budgets and for corporate subsidies, and massively so for private health care and pharmaceutical giants who's patents are protected by government regulations, so why pretend that there is no money for national health care programs?

Well, unfortunately we don't live in "Stellar's world" where everyone loves their neighbors and all nations have the best interests at heart of other nations, so there will always be a need for "defense budgets" unfortunately...

Originally posted by StellarX
Explain why this would happen while so many countries spend so much money on 'defense' without destroying their economies?

Because they already have the system set up for "defense budgets". Adding a NHS in a country like the U.S. would mean new taxes, because just like China, Russia, Iran and others are not going to stop continuing to fund and even increasing their "defense budgets", the U.S. won't do it either, and we shouldn't.

Only the dumb would ask for such a reduction of " the U.S. defense system", or our enemies.

Originally posted by StellarX
Common sense rarely 'works' without the ability to observe reality effectively.

You should read and repeat aloud that quote of yours more often, maybe someday it's meaning will sink in.

Originally posted by StellarX
No one cares if they buy one less car this year or can only afford three of four vacations a year. Spa's don't create very many jobs and neither do making cars.

In many ways it may not seen fair that the rich have enough money to buy one more car, but it is their money.

Do i wish to get one or two million dollars from a rich person? of course I would, but noone is going to give me, you or anyone else one or two million dollars just for the asking...

BTW, you live in South Africa, and you have a computer and internet connection. That means you are part of a minority, which among most people in Africa are "rich folk"... so why don't you sell your computer, and all the luxuries you surely have to help several families in Africa?...

Originally posted by StellarX
The poor are trying to make ends meet because the very rich are manipulating the system in such a way they they just never quite manage to. At the very least we should tax them far more heavily and make them stay in the country the earned their riches in.

In some cases it is true, there are rich people and corporations that would rather spend less money paying their employees so they can get more money. Unfortunately that is the way it works.

Governments such as the U.S. try in some ways to help the workers, and most workers in the U.S. are in better conditions than in other countries. Unfortunately some companies find loopholes and instead build their companies outside countries like the U.S., so they can get cheaper labor.

Without tax breaks for business owners and corporations most owuld just leave for other shores, as it is quite a few still build their factories in countries where people would work for a misery.

Originally posted by StellarX
Why should people work hard for pathetic salaries that allows them nothing but basics? Why should the rich be able to sit on their behinds while hundreds slave away in their factories for cents per hour?

Because not working at all would mean they will starve for real...

Without the rich providing companies and factories there wouldn't be many jobs, and more people would be in much worse shape.

I am not saying that it should be allowed for companies to pay a misery to workers, but what you seem to be implying is that the workers should get as much as the rich people.

Originally posted by StellarX
What's the point of a system where people work twelve hours a day and still starve? If your rich it makes a great deal of sense to keep others poor so they will be forced to work for however little you wish to pay them and why would anyone but the very rich of the stupidly ignorant want to be part of such a system?

First of all, i would like to see a family in the U.S. where family members really work 12 hours a day and still starve...

Yes there are a lot of people that probably can't have some of the things others have, but working 12 hours and starving?....i don't think so...

BTW, as i already pointed out...you seem to be part of a minority group in south Africa with previledges....so why don't you sell your computer, and the other luxury items you probably have or give most of your money away for other African families?.....

Originally posted by StellarX
The vast majority of the worlds people work very hard for almost no return and if you call sitting behind a desk hard work i suggest working with a shovel all day and returning to your cold, dank hovel at night to share whatever food you could afford with your wife and kids and the older family members who were worked into a condition where they are no longer any good with shovels.

And most of that vast majority of people are in areas where there are warlods, and dictators, many who hate the west, and they are the ones not allowing people to get fed or to better themselves.

Originally posted by StellarX
People behind desks may be 'exploited' ( working for pay is being exploited as your worth more to them than they are paying you) but the argument that they work 'hard' is nonsense. I have done both and frankly you can take pills for headaches you might get from thinking a bit too hard in your air conditioned cubicle. I'm not saying people behind desks should not demand more but that do understand that they have already achieved a great deal and that the vast majority of the worlds population would LOVE to be in their lucky positions as can easily be proved by looking at the rise of SEA manufacturing and business services.

Unfortunately not everyone can have a job in a cubicle, and many people also choose not to have such job btw.

BTW, every person has different skills...not everyone can be a doctor, or work in an office. There are people who have other skills, and even if everyone had the same skills who would choose to do work in the fields or such?...the intelligent folk with a college degree?...

Originally posted by StellarX
So why do the rich get such vast tax breaks&subsidies, government and legal protections for their economic crimes while the poor gets thrown in jail when they try to break out of the economic restraints imposed on them?

Even small business owners get tax breaks. Tax breaks for business owners are given so that they won't squeeze their workers more to get more money...

Originally posted by StellarX
There is no such thing as 'population problems' and only mismanagement, theft and suppression of large parts of the population. In a system where people are allowed to educate themselves and do the best they can each individual adds to the countries potential for wealth ( why is the US so relatively rich with 300 000 million while countries with only a few tens of millions experience such poverty? Would Americans get richer or poorer with half the workers gone?)

Wow, really? so educated people do not become thieves, or commit crimes?....

Well buddy, sorry to tell you that is not true in the least... Let's see.... OJ Simpson, a very rich man murdered his wife, and yes he got a green card because he is/was a celebrity, and he is/was rich...

There are hundreds if not thousands of terrorists who have college degrees, and many hail from wealthy families... yet they kill and maime innocent people... and i am not talking just about Islamic terrorists.

The list of murderers, rapers, etc, etc, who are/were educated, and hailed from wealthy families, is as long as the list of murderers, rapers, etc, who were/are poor...

As for your comment on the U.S....it is obvious by now that you hate the U.S.... But it is also obvious by now that you are part of a minority of people in a poor country yet you have more priviledges than them... So why should you have a computer and all the luxuries you seem to have and most other Africans can't?...

Originally posted by StellarX
And to even begin balancing the proverbial books we need to get rid of socialism for the and welfare for the rich and capitalism and regressive taxes for the poor.

Stellar

So what sort of system, Stellar has in mind?..