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Micheal Moore's SICKO gets *Thumbs Up* from fact checkers.

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posted on Jun, 30 2007 @ 02:33 PM
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Originally posted by AnAbsoluteCreation
Before any state passes out a medical license, that doctors should spend two years in an nonproft clinic finded by the feds.


Nice ... but it can't happen.

New doctors usually have MOUNTAINS of student loans to pay (med school is expeeeeeeeeeeeeensive) AND malpractice insurance is through the roof.

New doctors need money. They need an income to survive on AND an income to pay the loans and insurance with.




posted on Jun, 30 2007 @ 03:12 PM
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I am thrilled with Moore's new film. Why? Because we are sick to death of paying $400.00 a week so we can have medical coverage for our family of four (and that price is a group plan) Most American's do not even know about the NHS over in England, France, Canada ...

We ourselves rarely hear about the people that die because they couldn't afford to remove a stage 1 or 2 lump from their body. I have a sister in law whom is a MD, and I hear first hand of the horror stories. Moore did a great service by making this film. If you do look on some lists USA is not the best so lets get off that kick now.

What about how we hear more horror stories about you not being able to get an appointment to see your Dr. when on the NHS? It is the same here in the USA. My daughter has two types of anemia and she needs to see two specialists. How long do you think the wait is? I made the appointment two weeks, and she will be seen Sept 6th. So, lets get off this crud about how Michael lied here. Maybe he went overboard, but maybe there is a fine fine line between lies and overboard with this film, but the facts are what he is saying is true to so many Americans.

I did watch this movie and here are somethings I did see:

We need more people to wake up to the fact that to many people are going bankrupt, and losing everything they have ever worked for because of our so called "peace of mind payments" each week/month. Those that have worked all their lives, raised multiple children, put them through college and its time for them to retire. They get sick, and lose everything due to medical deductibles. Is this fair? Multiple heart attacks and cancer with medical insurance that the deductibles and copays caused them to go bankrupt. Is this right? They had to say goodbye to their family home because of medical bills. Is that the American Dream?

The film starts off with a man that had an accident with a table saw. Sadly he sawed off the tips of his two fingers and he didn't have insurance. He was told his middle finger tip would cost $60,000.00 or reattach the ring finger for $12,000.00. How is one finger more then the other? I would like to think that they could have put both fingers on for under $20,000.00? Sadly this story ends with the middle finger going into the garbage!

Uterine cancer of a 22 yr old was denied treatment because she was to young to get cancer. That woman eventually died due to the cancer spreading to her brain. SHAME ON YOU MR INSURANCE COMPANY!

Here is one story that shocked me. A young woman was in a car collision that knocks her out. An ambulance arrives, and takes her to the Emergency room. She is now home, and her mail comes. She opens her mail to find a bill stating that they will not cover her ambulance ride due to the fact that she did NOT get prior approval to have this emergency ride. How could she get approval when she was out cold? She could not fight this issue anymore as the insurance company would not work with her. This is one of the biggest medical coverage Corps in the world that did and still continues to do this. Will she have to hire a lawyer and pay even more? What a shame!

To Fat? To Skinny? You're DENIED!
You can and will be denied medical coverage if you are overweight or underweight. Example a man that is 6 ft tall at 130 pounds he is TO THIN. A woman had a BMI to high for a woman at the height 5' 1" tall at 175lbs. DENIED. Neither one of those people were over 50 yrs old. My opinion is they were under 25 yrs old.
Are they saying that if my child was ten years old and weighed 120 lbs they cannot insure her? What is wrong with this?

This is only the tip of the iceberg here!

I say B R A V O to him and if I could I would personally thank him!

Also I wanted to note his views on copyright laws (which has to do with his movie) as he did stash a copy in Canada for safe keeping. I believe it was leaked to torrents on purpose.


Google Video Link



posted on Jun, 30 2007 @ 03:22 PM
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Originally posted by dawnstar
....mind you, the cost of setting that broken bone, and the treatment might be equivalent of two years of wages for some people.
..........


Well, i guess we can always have children since the age of 11/12 go to hard labour camps every summer, and spend all their summer working in the camps harvesting whatever is being grown, that way they can pay for their education every year until they graduate. Have them go to these hard labour camps every summer until their last year of graduation.

I guess it is true you can learn something constructive from this latest movie Moore did.



posted on Jun, 30 2007 @ 03:24 PM
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BTW, am i wrong or didn't the PM of France (?) state they wanted to get rid of their NHS and want to have some other system?

[edit on 30-6-2007 by Muaddib]



posted on Jun, 30 2007 @ 03:38 PM
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Well, while doing a search for the NHS in France I found something else about the NHS in Britain.

Apparently they are going to work on changing it, but I wonder what kind of changes they have in mind.


"As I have travelled round the country and as I have listened and I've learned from the British people -- and as prime minister I will continue to listen and learn from the British people -- I've heard the need for change. Change in our NHS (health system), change in our schools, change with affordable housing, change to build trust in government, change to protect and extend the British way of life. And this need for change cannot be met by the old politics.

uk.reuters.com...

Why would anyone want to change a NHS that apparently is working so well?

[edit on 30-6-2007 by Muaddib]



posted on Jun, 30 2007 @ 03:50 PM
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Oh, I see now why the new PM of Britain is saying this. Apparently the NHS is in a financial crisis.


Thursday, March 09, 2006


Your view: how can the NHS be saved?
Posted at: 10:27
The financial crisis blighting the NHS gets more acute every week.

Wards are being closed, staff made redundant and operations cancelled as hospital trusts struggle to cope with an annual deficit that is reported to be more than £1bn.

On Tuesday Sir Nigel Crisp, the NHS chief executive, stood down, admitting that "not everything has gone well" during his five-year reign. Some have called for Patricia Hewitt, the Health Secretary, to follow him out the door.

What would you do to turn the NHS around and sort out its cash crisis?

Is more investment the key? Or has Labour's generosity to the NHS shown that nothing can be achieved by throwing money at a problem?

www.telegraph.co.uk.../news/2006/03/09/ublview09.xml

The NHS in a financial crisis? why would that be?...


[edit on 30-6-2007 by Muaddib]



posted on Jun, 30 2007 @ 03:53 PM
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AbsoluteCreation, yours is a brilliant idea and in fact, it has already been tried and it is wildly successful beyond anyone's dreams. The county hospital in Oakland, CA has some kind of arrangement where doctors and nurses are required to work 1 year or so in, I can't rememeber all the details. But I believe it has to do with licensing in that county. They can do it over a long period of time so that they can do it on time off.
It works wonderfully and has some of the BEST health care around. The staff are all very friendly and knowledgeable. I think this type of plan would work everywhere and benefits everyone.


apc

posted on Jun, 30 2007 @ 04:06 PM
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I have not seen the movie (like all of Moore's films, I'm sure it is NOT a documentary), but I did see his interview on Jay Leno. Moore talked about HMO this, HMO that... so I have to wonder... was this movie entirely about HMOs?

If so... big surprise people who get HMO coverage are getting screwed. HMOs are horrible.

This is what responsible people do: get a PPO with a high deductible. $2-5,000. Then stick that $2-5000 in an HSA. You get a discount on all your out of pocket expenses, and you're covered in case of emergency. Simple.



posted on Jun, 30 2007 @ 04:19 PM
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Hummm, this is very wierd, the same thing is happening in other countries, such as France, and Italy.

What is going on?


The financial crisis of the Italian NHS

Reasons

In Italy there is a long history of late payments for goods and services supply in the healthcare sector, and therefore it could be argued that the system and the markets have “balanced out” around them, but this is not the case. The situation requires immediate attention, and true normality: in other words, payments within 90 days should be restored.

Since the introduction of the National Health Service (NHS) in 1978, by law n.833, the financing of the public healthcare expenditure was never efficiently tackled by the national Legislator and the 2001 tax reform, which still represents the main provisionon this subject, is still pending.

Funding policies have always tended to allocate less than the foreseeable need, inorder to encourage greater attention on costs. Actually, the NHS has always closed fiscal years in chronic deficit and payment has always followed with chronic delays.

In 1999 and 2000, allotted funds came reasonably close to foreseen needs, but by2001 the gap reopened and deficit began to escalate.


The Italian NHS financial crisis and late payments


NHS in crisis? Patients in France also wait on trolleys

Paul Webster in Paris
Sunday December 7, 2003
The Observer

France's public hospital system, often cited as a model for Britain, is on the brink of paralysis, according to medical staff, who blame a lack of funding and personnel.
Trade unions representing the system's 750,000 staff have organised street demonstrations later this month, claiming a lack of government money could result in many of the 1,500 hospitals going bankrupt, despite a 5 per cent budget increase this year to about €50 billion (£35 billion).

observer.guardian.co.uk...




[edit on 30-6-2007 by Muaddib]



posted on Jun, 30 2007 @ 04:22 PM
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I can't believe...


Originally posted by AnAbsoluteCreation
Again, I work/operate in the healthcare system (IDTF) and I think I know what I'm talking about, or atleast where I'm coming from.


You work in an IDTF and you can't see the incredible damage being done by reimbursement capitation (a direct result of Medicare reimbursement rate reduction) the stifling of new technology acquisition due to the DRA and especially in the county you work in. These are the "answers" that the government has for medicine. In countries that have socialized medicine advanced imaging modalities are in short supply, resulting in long lead times for a diagnosis to be obtained, or even worse, the implementation of "exploratory surgery" to assess a patients condition... Deliver me to the 1940's all over again.



posted on Jun, 30 2007 @ 04:25 PM
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I could spend all day long pointing fingers too, but that doesn't get anyone anywhere. You can sit back and be comfortable because you think you worked hard in your life and you've gotten to a point where you've earned your healthcare, and would hate the idea of giving something away that you feel you earned.

Change is what we need. Not finger pointers. I know there is # out there, but I'd rather use those examples and learn from them, not knowck their efforts.

Remember, some threads here on ATS are also for discussion, not just debate. How about you jump on my side for an experiement and tell me what you think we should do for the universal program? If your answer is "nothing can be done." I will digress.

AAC



posted on Jun, 30 2007 @ 04:31 PM
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Originally posted by Mirthful Me


All what you have said is true, although I think a governments three top priorities should be; Health, Saftey and Freedom. I say treat it like they to local law enforcement. There are plenty great cops out there, just as there could be many great health practicianers. As for diagnostic modalities, budgets and regulatory agencies can be implemented to make sure protocols and timely results are scrutinized.

This thread is for a discussion, I just thought more people would try to imagine a better system, rather than giving examples why it can't work.

I guess a change of epic proportions is nessecary for this kind of action to be universally supported.

AAC



posted on Jun, 30 2007 @ 04:31 PM
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Originally posted by Muaddib

Originally posted by dawnstar
....mind you, the cost of setting that broken bone, and the treatment might be equivalent of two years of wages for some people.
..........


Well, i guess we can always have children since the age of 11/12 go to hard labour camps every summer, and spend all their summer working in the camps harvesting whatever is being grown, that way they can pay for their education every year until they graduate. Have them go to these hard labour camps every summer until their last year of graduation.

I guess it is true you can learn something constructive from this latest movie Moore did.



I get a better idea!!! why don't we just take the paycheck of the lower middle class working americans, split it in half, one half goes to the poor, the other to the rich....and well, the can starve to death homeless and naked....
then, we will see just how much the poor and the rich have without someone working thier arses off to get it for them??

sorry, but what in the world does what you posted have to do with what I posted?

just wondering?



posted on Jun, 30 2007 @ 04:35 PM
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Originally posted by Muaddib
Why would anyone want to change a NHS that apparently is working so well?


I know for a fact one of them is to shorten the wait time to see a Dr. Some areas are heavily populated, and of course there being more sick people then Dr's.

I think some of the problem would be with "greedy" Dr's. The ones that need three homes, four cars, and vacations three times a year which means bigger salaries. They could be demanding increased salaries.

I would also think technology plays a role in a problem with the NHS, as some Dr's cannot afford new technology. I would guess that they would find a new way to fund the equipment.

When it comes to equipment. I can use a recent event in my life to give an example. I have medical insurance, and I pay dearly for it. I had moderate pain in my flanks under my rib cage. I had to make a choice. Either see a Dr. for a 15$ co-pay or go to the emergency room for 100$. I should have went to the emergency room as they have the equipment there such as blood tests, urine tests, x-rays, and more. I went to the Dr. that had no real equipment to help my situation and never found out what the problem was. So, if you think about it ... NHS + Emergency care is very helpful. I would not have to get my medical insurance co. to "approve" my ER visit either.

Still the fact remains so many would take the NHS just the way it is. I just asked a friend that lives in Lancashire and they said ... when you have an emergency you get treated, its free, what more do you want? (generally speaking) and I have to say that I agree.



posted on Jun, 30 2007 @ 04:56 PM
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Originally posted by dawnstar
....................
sorry, but what in the world does what you posted have to do with what I posted?

just wondering?


Well, I was trying to find something constructive, actually I was being sarcastic since there is nothing constructive in puting children in labour camps for any reason, in the ways of those countries which Moore revered in this latest movie. That's how people in Cuba pay for their NHS and their education.

Then I looked at some of the other socialised NHS, and they all have their problems, in fact they are in crisis because "they can't get enough money to pay for services and the people who work in the healthcare system".

Apparently some people believe the healthcare system can be free, but that's not possible because then you will have the problems that France, Britain, and Italy among others are having.

I am just pointing out some of the problems with the NHS.

BTW, I am not denying that the U.S. healthcare system has problems, but are we to dismiss the many problems that the NHS other countries have, and just embrace such a system to make the same mistakes other countries have made?

---edited to add comment---

[edit on 30-6-2007 by Muaddib]



posted on Jun, 30 2007 @ 07:29 PM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by AnAbsoluteCreation
the simple fact that healthcare should be a non-profit organization is a no-brainer.

Your 'simple fact - no brainer' is full of holes. Competition and free market drives a better product.


Yes, yes it does. But 'should' is the operative word, and he is absolutely correct
.



posted on Jun, 30 2007 @ 09:47 PM
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France and Britian may be having their problems, but they are not even comparable to the American's system. France/Britan are making it harder on themselves for being too generous to their people. And for the most part, it's only affecting the Governments -- not the people. This is fine... a healthy & honest problem that needs to be addressed and fixed, before it begins also affecting the people. You've just shown the sources that say the leaders of those countries acknowledged the problem and want to fix it. Absolutely nothing wrong with the direction these nations are heading.

America on the other hand... Where do I even begin? I would just tell you to watch the movie, but of course thats not possible, because apperently Moore "lied" about a subject that has absolutely no relevance to the point he was trying to make. The sad thing is, the American Government hasn't even acknowledged their problems yet. That would be a GREAT start! Thing is, unfortunately it was THEY who PURPOSELY created the situation to begin with! They decided their WEALTH would be more important than that of the HEALTH of their people. The whole thing was setup and even "fine tuned" a long the way so that noone would ever WAKE UP and realise.

I'm not even a part of America and it infuriates me...can't imagine how the people that actually SUFFER from this corruption feel. I tell you what though, I applaud Michael Moore for seeing the problem and actually doing something about it. If this movie is as succesful as it seems it will be, I'm sure it will play a role in deciding the upcoming presidential elections.

Who knows? Maybe theres hope yet.



posted on Jun, 30 2007 @ 09:57 PM
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if the current system is allowed to continue out of control..with it's cost rising even more.
as more companies are forced by economics to drop coverage for their employees and their families.

as insurance premiums become out of the reach of more and more people.

as taxes continue to rise to help meet the needs of the state, local and federal employees, the medicaid, the medicare...

as more and more people see their taxes rising, their benefits disappearing, their healthcare out of their reach...

they will begin to come to the same conclusion I have...

that our economy cannot provide healthcare for all....someone has to be left out. and, just what would the world think if we allowed those people to be the poorest amoung us...so, our government has found a nifty way to keep that from happening....they've just diverted that problem to another group of people.
and that group just happens to be paying tax money that is helping the poor obtain what they can't....
it's unconstitutional!!

then, well, a choice will have to be made, either open up the system for all, or cease feeding the healthcare system with tax money....

at this stage of the game, neither one is a pleasant option.



posted on Jun, 30 2007 @ 10:33 PM
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Take these words as a person who has a mother working 3 jobs, who lives paycheck by paycheck, and is prejudice to an extent toward rich people...I refuse to allow government to force people with money to pay for the healthcare of the poor. It is simply wrong. I believe that principles come first. Countless americans died for the principles of this nation, and I refuse to believe that these sacrifices were made just so they can be thrown away by people that don't want to sacrifice themselves.

This world isn't fair and freedom isn't always pretty. You won't always get all the good breaks, and sometimes you will get the short end of the stick. This is the way it is in a free society. In a free society we don't have government bailing out every poor person, in an american society we provide the poor the right to do so themselves. It is our duty, not to give the poor healthcare, but to ensure they have the ability to get it themselves if they work hard enough for it.

I am not going to say our healthcare system is perfect, because it isn't. There is something I will say, and that is that some people will inevidably go without healthcare. Its a hard fact to grasp, but people die. Is it morally right to say that because they are poor they will die first, no. Fact is though thats how the world works. If people are going to die, its the people at the bottom. I'm not condoning it, I am simply stating what is a fact, and what will continue to happen forever. There is no system that can save everyone forever. Eventually the system will break, one way or another. If you save everyone and can afford to save everyone, overpopulation will bring you down anyway so that your system crashes anyway.

Am I saying people need to die? As wrong as it sounds, yes. You can't have an ever growing population, regardless of how much we hate the idea. A sad fact we must all come to grips with is this: Everybody has to die one day. It has nothing to do with deserve, its just the way it is.



posted on Jun, 30 2007 @ 10:48 PM
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In that case let me share a line from one of my favourite movies...

"Not far from here is a fence, and on
the other side of that fence is freedom,


and he can smell it.


He'll never try
to get there,


'cause he's given up.


By now he thinks freedom
is something he dreamed."


...What a sad reality this world has become.


[edit on 30/6/07 by Navieko]



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