Originally posted by TgSoe
I'm still trying to decide exactly who the invisible side of Masonary is. I think its the Ordo Templi Orientis.

I honestly don't believe that there is an invisible side to regular freemasonry. All of the side orders are open to a mason who puts time into his studies and any "secret" organisation is not masonry.
I know guys who are in the 33rd degree and I'm in a Mark Lodge with a couple in the 32nd. They're ordinary men who are no different from myself other than they have put a lot more effort into their masonry than I have.

The fact that regular masons are here on a conspiracy website, shows that we're nowhere near as secretive as we used to be (a secrecy that was absolutely necessary in my view as in history it proved to be quite literally life-saving). I believe that given time we can open up and show people that we are just regular guys with no secret agenda, other than a desire to fulfill our God-given potential to live our lives here as best we can and to help others do the same through charitable works.

The fact that freemasons are accused of being tools of a darker force is because a lot of guys who are actually members have different views on why they are in the Craft. Ask ten members of my lodge what masonry actually is and you will get ten different replies. But that is the beauty of it to me. I view freemasonry as a question. It was the question that started me off asking about myself, my relationship with my fellow man, and with God. It was the question that led me to another question and then another and so on. As I answer each question I feel able to live my life in a way that benefits my fellow man and myself in a far better way than if I had never asked in the first place.
They always say that you only get out of freemasonry what you put in. But to me personally, I've got far more out than I put in.

I read earlier this morning that the first Masons were Identical to the Rosicrusions in Europe. Are you saying that I can join the Lodge four miles away from the house and start climbing the mountain?

Originally posted by TgSoe
Only thing is its about three thouand miles from my busy life here in Ga. I'm still trying to decide exactly who the invisible side of Masonary is. I think its the Ordo Templi Orientis.

Ordo Templi Orientis isn't invisible, nor is it Freemasonry. Members of O.T.O are not allowed to visit Masonic Lodges by virtue of O.T.O. membership.
The O.T.O. was in danger of going defunct after Crowley's death, but interest in O.T.O. among mystics and occultists was reborn in the 1960's. Today, it's sort of a hippie organization.

Fiat Lvx.

Originally posted by TgSoe
I read earlier this morning that the first Masons were Identical to the Rosicrusions in Europe. Are you saying that I can join the Lodge four miles away from the house and start climbing the mountain?

If you've got a Lodge four miles away from you, there is nothing to stop you from going down there and asking to join. Although people view masonry as secretive, if you ask at the lodge they will give you information about the Craft. It's totally up to you what you do with it though.

You'll probably get conflicting stories about where the Craft originated. In my opinion, it is so old that it's origins aren't certain, but once you're a member and you begin to study you can make up your own mind - I have friends who believe it started with Jacobites in Scotland, others with Templars, others with Greek Philosophical schools, others the Rosicrucians and yet others that it dawned with early Christianity. The official line is that it started in London in the 1700s but nothing is pushed onto you and you are encouraged to come up with your own answers, just as you are with everything else in masonry.

As for climbing a mountain? That's up to you, dude. I don't believe that being a mason means that you are given any special privileges other than those that you bring out of yourself.

Originaly posted by Leveller. As for climbing a mountain? That's up to you, dude. I don't believe that being a mason means that you are given any special privileges other than those that you bring out of yourself.

I suppose if you expect nothing you will seldom be disappointed. William Shnoebelen said in his book Masonary beyond the light that," the Mason who doesn't pursue the craft past the third degree will never see what Masonary is truly about". I find that kind of interesting , what do they do seperate them? I also find it interesting that the early Masons had to live so secretly to protect thier very life, Hmm. I can think of a few things that would have gotten an angry mob started. But why doesn't that happen today? Are they so strategically spread out in powerful positions that no one can touch them now? Or, have they kept whatever the secret is so secret that most people don't even have a clue to whats going on? Or has the public changed so much now that they just don't care anymore? Maybe they are just good ol boys playing cards and shooting pool after all .


A Mexican told me a story of how brujas practice witchcraft around a fire back in Mexico in the woods at night. He said one night, "an angry mob of people came out of the brush and poured gas on the bruja in charge of the ceremony. She was burned badly. In fact, he said that one baby out of all the surrounding familys including his own sister had been sacrificed by brujas. He also said that on one occasion he saw a bruja transformed into what he thought was a turkey with its wings spread open like a buzzard. He said its mouth was opening and closing kind of strangely. The bruja was said to have transformed after consuming a babys blood. I seriously doubt any of its true though.

I suppose if you expect nothing you will seldom be disappointed. William Shnoebelen said in his book Masonary beyond the light that," the Mason who doesn't pursue the craft past the third degree will never see what Masonary is truly about".

Anything that Schnoebolen writes about Masonry (or Mormons or Jehovahs Witnesses or Jews or Muslims, etc.) should be taken with a grain of salt. He is not a researcher or a philosopher, he's an evangelist with an agenda.
In the U.S., about half of all Masons hold at least the 32° in the Scottish Rite. Degrees are not elitist in nature...any Mason who wants them can receive them, and most do. The idea that Masonry consists of millions of Blue Lodge Masons only being controlled by "higher degrees" is thus proved fiction. Masonry is a fraternity, and in order for a fraternity to survive, it has to serve its members.
All Master Masons are eligible for the Scottish Rite degrees. In my jurisdiction, the mean total cost of initiation fees from the first to thirty-second degrees is somewhere around $350, after which the member pays an average of $85 per year in dues (for Blue Lodge and Scottish Rite....this is of course higher if he is also a York Rite Mason and/or Shriner).

Fiat Lvx.

Fraternal greetings Benjj

I was directed here from another Forum. I was told this place was full of crack pots and loons. Being a cautious man, I decided to check it for myself. The debate has been refreshingly polite, and I see no evidence of lunacy.

Do you mind if I add a few words of my own?

As a UK Freemason, I have little knowledge of things stateside, but I have read quite a few of the supposed "exposes" of the Craft, and oh dear, if ignorance is bliss, those authors must have died in a permanent state of orgasm.

As has probably been said already, the only secrets we keep are only as a prize to be attained if a person feels ready, and if their peers within the Lodge consider them worthy.

You would not lend a book to someone and tell them the plot and the ending, would you?

Outside Lodge, I would not want to hear those secrets, and I am not well disposed to those that give any signs or gestures that may identify them as Masons.

A time and place for everything, perhaps.

A personal observation, which is no reflection of persons on this board, or this Forum in particular. I have noticed that where conspiracies are imagined, or if a person is feeling " ganged up on" by supposed secret societies, it reflects not the reality of that supposition, but a stark lack of something within the person feeling oppressed. Whether it is trust, love, family or even a connection with fact, that lack is more obvious than the truth they are searching for.

Something else I have heard in life and observed on internet forums is the old claim that " oh, you are not senior enough to realise how your superiors within Freemasonry are lying both to you and the general public. The conspiracy is there."

So, a person who is outside of the organisation can see it, but we Freemasons can not?

But, when we become Freemasons, we do not cease to be sentient beings that have access to exactly the same data as non masons.

Oh, we do not want to see, so we do not believe. Yeah, good one. Must remember that. But I can't according to non- mason conspiracy theorists. I can not think, store info or live within the non Masonic world. How plain dumb of me.

not to post information regarding something as beautifull as love and organizational bonds but i have a question followed by a response.

so here goes maybe with the comment first but i would love feedback;
as a black man who has inclinations and the will to walk the scotishrite path of "association"; can i be expected to not be accepted by other non black previously mentioned associated masons?
my comment; i think to endure the struggles of life and triumph in innerstandings of the mechanics of "why i did" is great,will i be cut off from other potential bretheren in. re. to their experiences if i am a black man sharing a lodge with people who are not black: under the supposition of the first question. i personally would look forward to sharing my innerstandings with others who have a different perspective.

my 2 cents about the "hidden hand":
could this hidden hand be that of one's own ignorance? this is moreso a rhetorical question one should prose themselves, there are numerous reasons why "you" arent content with your "lot in life".

on a side note to summarize my questions prosed:
i know we are all different, with each "being" having a totally different perspective, but would i have support for/in expressing my differing perspective with other non "black" bretheren if/when i became scotishrite. in other words would i have the opportunity to express myself with nonblack scotishrite members, while still having a scotishrite experience as a black man amongst other bretheren that are nonblack?


i would really appreciate an answer to this question, and any respone is welcomed...

Originally posted by foolishbeing


so here goes maybe with the comment first but i would love feedback;
as a black man who has inclinations and the will to walk the scotishrite path of "association"; can i be expected to not be accepted by other non black previously mentioned associated masons?

I can speak for the UK and can say that you would be more than welcome to join a lodge over here. The only requirements are that you are old enough, believe in a superior being and are of good character.
Over here in the UK candidates can ask to join or they are invited - normally after their proposer has known them for two years.

There are many people of different races, both black and asian, who hold high office in masonry in the UK. I regularly sit with brothers of different religions and different ethnic backgrounds in my lodge.

Colour is no bar to a man in regular freemasonry.

thankyou for the response, i have taken steps toward this said decision and contacted the correct persons; i am in america; so i am going to do what i will, but i dont want to segregrate myself, thus the probing before any further steps are taken. someone has already spoken of my character and the qualifications are not what i am inquiring over; but, and this is a large but, if i were to "associate" as a black man in a scotishrite form; which i have taken to proper steps to do; are there available channels for me to communicate with bretheren of a different ethnicity?

i think some explaining is in order as to why the probing;
my grandfather was princehall associated, and my ancestors are predominately from the south; i was raised entirely different with a differing perspective in california. i went to a lodge of scottishrite association to see about potential steps to take to become a member (where i now reside, louisiana) and was redirected to the princehall route. the very honorable and respectfull man i spoke with even gave me all the tools needed to walk this destination; yet, he expressed some very interesting things, to the liking that i had to go this route and that was the only type of option i could pursue.so i reacquainted myself as to why with some reading material and came to the conclusion that this was potentially false. further the material i read/came across would attempt to make one/me believe that the "organization" perpetuates this by barring members of ethnicity other than "white". being that my perspective of the whole race relation issue is completely different than that of my "peers" in the south i surmised that it would not be a good decision to further segregate myself and accept "this". i then remembered that a college "organizational brother" of mine from a previous association (gphig) is a member of the scottishrite form of accquaintcy of masonry; we never lost contact and i gave him a call. he gave me a the necessary information and the results of actions are as yet to be determined.

but, and this is a big but, my attempts would be in vain if in my attempt to be desegregated i unknowingly segregated myself by proxy with no communication channels to potential bretheren. thus the ensuing questions.

i know i will have to find out on my own as to how things will play out.

so, to refine my query, as an open minded black man who accepts all lovingly for all that is, can i or should i take the advice aforementioned and walk the same path as my grandfather (he was a great man and i have no problem with following steps). but consciously i think i would be of more service to myself and my fellow man by walking new ground and doing what my intuition and destiny has allocated for me by becoming scottishrite; but before seals and bonds are made i want to ensure that my potential will be utilized most benificial, and thus the ensuing questions as previously posted.


thank you for your time and for reading this and the previous post. as freewill beings in a freewill universe one does not have to do anything for another and what one has done thus far is greatly appreciated...

Foolishbeing, good luck in your endeavors. If you join a Lodge in the US that belongs to a constitution recognised by the United Grand Lodge of England, you would be made to feel welcome at any Lodge should by fortune etc get to visit the UK, irrespective of your skin colour. The word and deed of that statement will be obvious even before you set foot within.

Leveller, please, can you help? Are Prince Hall Lodges UGLE recognised en masse, or are specific States excluded? I would appreciate the clarification.

[Edited on 17-4-2004 by Conquistador]

Didnt ALbert Pike proclaim that Lucifer is God and the like and thats where alot of the anti masonic stuff comes from???? If you read the stuff Pike wrote, like that Lucifer is the grand archetect of the universe etc its pretty obvious people would think masons worship satan.

Thanks to the internet and the freedom of information , people can disclose so much information without even being known by those reading it, whereas before if a mason gave secrets he could be killed.

Also in its very nature Masons would attract suspision seeings as all they do is in secret and you have to be invited to join , almost hand picked often due to your position in society , ambition and family history.

Its not just a few things here and there, there are hard links to masons in many different areas, and it cannot all be lies. Just the fact that 99% of American Presidents are masons alone speaks volumnes, or at least it should.

Originally posted by Conquistador
Leveller, please, can you help? Are Prince Hall Lodges UGLE recognised en masse, or are specific States excluded? I would appreciate the clarification.

I believe that UGLE is in the process of recognising all Prince Hall Lodges but there are some who are excluded as of this time due to administration being a time consuming job.

The recognised states are -
Prince Hall Grand Lodges(USA):
Arizona; California; Colorado and its Jurisdiction; Connecticut; District of Columbia; Hawaii; Illinois; Iowa; Indiana; Kansas; Maryland; Massachusetts; Michigan; Minnesota; Nebraska and its Jurisdiction; New Mexico; New York; Ohio; Oregon; Pennsylvania; Rhode Island; Virginia; Washington and its Jurisdiction; Wisconsin.

Elsewhere -
Prince Hall Grand Lodges (West Indies):
Bahamas; Caribbean and Jurisdiction.

Recognition is a recent event as far as I can make out, with Iowa being recognised as recently as 10th March this year.

Foolishbeing: You ask for advice, and the only advice I can give to you is to follow your heart. The decision is yours and yours to make alone.

Originally posted by TruthStrgnrThanFiction
Didnt ALbert Pike proclaim that Lucifer is God and the like and thats where alot of the anti masonic stuff comes from???? If you read the stuff Pike wrote, like that Lucifer is the grand archetect of the universe etc its pretty obvious people would think masons worship satan.

I would not be in such a hurry to believe everything written or accredited to Albert Pike. As the man is no longer living, I will only say this : He is and was not the fountain of all wisdom and truth re: Freemasonry. I personally believe at best he had a wicked sense of humour.

Thanks to the internet and the freedom of information , people can disclose so much information without even being known by those reading it, whereas before if a mason gave secrets he could be killed.

Ahh, I can see your confusion. The internet is a place that anyone can write anything, and in most cases take no responsibility for the factual content or lack of. The penalty for disclosure is no longer death, but ostracization. For most long-standing Masons, the shame of exclusion as a wilfully perjured individual would be far greater than death.

Also in its very nature Masons would attract suspision seeings as all they do is in secret and you have to be invited to join , almost hand picked often due to your position in society , ambition and family history.

Invited? Hand picked? Family history? Not here in the UK. As for position, unlikely. If someone can say of you, "you can trust him, he is of good character" and if you have a belief in a superior being, ( ie, you are a theist) of mature age (above 21) you can consider membership. That is, you can approach your local Lodges. After assesment and interview, you may be allowed to proceed. Again, personally, I would want to know you very well before proposing your application. Five years would do it.

Its not just a few things here and there, there are hard links to masons in many different areas, and it cannot all be lies. Just the fact that 99% of American Presidents are masons alone speaks volumnes, or at least it should.

There you go again. Not wishing to be rude, but as far as hard facts go, you have missed them completely. 99% of US Presidents? The volume that speaks is a mere paragraph in our history.

Had you considerd the possibility that it is a co-incidence that certain prominant figures are and were Masons? If you had a friend that was one, and you asked him about it, would you not expect him to at a later date ask you if you had considered joining? Just as two friends with an interest in golf, or soccer or even Rugby would invite a mutual friend with a similar interest to come along to watch? Is there a conspiracy afoot in that at any given weekend here in the UK, someone somewhere is sitting watching sport in a stadium with a friend? Are they plotting the overthrow of Government? Are they masterminding a plan to control the World Bank? If you look closely, you may see a minor Royal in the crowd. Oh, my. It must be an Illuminati coven.

Again, no offence is meant, but it is easier to explain my point in those terms.

I was permitted to join, not because of who I am, but rather what I am. I continue to be one because I enjoy it immensely. Its the most fun you can have with your clothes on.

Originally posted by TruthStrgnrThanFiction
Didnt ALbert Pike proclaim that Lucifer is God and the like and thats where alot of the anti masonic stuff comes from???? If you read the stuff Pike wrote, like that Lucifer is the grand archetect of the universe etc its pretty obvious people would think masons worship satan.

No, that wasn't Pike. Shortly after Pike's death in 1891, a Frenchman named Leo Taxil, who was a First Degree Mason under the Grand Orient of France, was expelled from the Fraternity due to immoral business practices.
Taxil then sought revenge on Freemasonry by publishing several scandalous books on the subject, and by attempting to smear its good name.
About 1898, Taxil delivered a fake speech which he attributed to Pike, to an anti-Masonic French author named Abel Clarin de la Rive. La Rive thought that this speech, which included the "Lucifer is God" quote, was authentic, and he published it in his book "Le Femme et L'enfant La Franc-Maconnerie Universalle," and it was reprinted in English in Edith Starr Miller's book "Occult Theocrasy."
But independent researchers soon found that Taxil's tal tales just didn't add up. Finally, Taxil publicly confessed that he had orchestrated the entire hoax. De la Rive then issued a statement in his anti-Masonic magazine, "Freemasonry Exposed", publicly retracting the Masonic Luciferian hoax, and apologized to Pike's daughter for slandering her late father.
Last year, Newsweek magazine ran edition called the World's Most Famous Hoaxes, featuring the Pike-Lucifer hoax in an article titled "Devil In A Red Fez".
Brother Pike was, in fact, an Episcopalian.

Just the fact that 99% of American Presidents are masons alone speaks volumnes, or at least it should.

Only 16 U.S. Presidents have been Masons. This is far from 90%....it isn't even one-third.

United States Presidents who were Masons:

1. George Washington
Alexandria Lodge No. 53 in Fredericksberg, VA
Worshipful Master 1788-1789

2. James Buchanan
Lancaster Lodge No. 43, Lancaster, PA
Royal Arch Mason

3. Gerald R. Ford
Malta Lodge No. 405, Grand Rapids, Michigan
33° Scottish Rite, Royal Arch Mason, Knight Templar, Shriner

4. James A. Garfield
Magnolia Lodge No. 20, Columbus, OH
14° Scottish Rite, Royal Arch Mason, Knight Templar

5. Warren G. Harding
Marion Lodge No. 70, Marion, OH
32° Scottish Rite, Royal Arch Mason, Knight Templar, Shriner

6. Andrew Jackson
St. Tammany Lodge No. 29, Nashville, TN
Royal Arch Mason, Knight Templar
Grand Master of Tennessee 1822-1823

7. Andrew Johnson
Greenville Lodge No. 119, Greenville, TN
32° Scottish Rite directly from Albert Pike, Royal Arch Mason, Knight Templar

8. William McKinley
Hiram Lodge No. 10, Winchester, WV
Royal Arch Mason, Knight Templar

9. James Monroe
Williamsburg Lodge No. 6, Williamsburg, VA

10. James K. Polk
Columbia Lodge No. 31, Columbia, TN
Royal Arch Mason

11. Franklin D. Roosevelt
Holland Lodge No. 8, New York, NY
32° Scottish Rite, Shriner

12. Theodore Roosevelt
Matinecock Lodge No. 806, Oyster Bay, NY

13. William H. Taft
Kilwinning Lodge No. 356, Cincinatti, OH

14. Harry S. Truman
Belton Lodge No. 450, Belton, Missouri
33° Scottish Rite, Royal Arch Mason, Knight Templar, Shriner
Grand Master of Missouri 1940.

Lyndon B. Johnson and Rutherford B. Hayes were Entered Apprentice Masons only. Contrary to popular belief, neither Thomas Jefferson nor Abraham Lincoln were Masons.

Also, Masons are not "hand-picked". Any man who is of upright moral character and believes in the existence of a Supreme Being is qualified to become a Mason. We do not invite anyone into Masonry; the man who desires to become a Mason simply has to ask. That's what those "2B1Ask1" bumper stickers mean.
Nor are there any secrets anyone is "killed" for. The ancient penalties are derived from the medieval military orders, but are used symbolically in Masonry.
Penalties for breach of Masonic trust and unmasonic conduct range from censure and suspension to the ultimate Masonic penalty, expulsion, which is lifetime excommunication from the Fraternity.

Fiat Lvx.


[Edited on 17-4-2004 by Masonic Light]

Originally posted by Masonic Light
We do not invite anyone into Masonry; the man who desires to become a Mason simply has to ask. That's what those "2B1Ask1" bumper stickers mean.

In the UK, we can now invite people to join.

One mason I know told me if I joined, I would be completely surprized and satisfied. I'm not exactly sure what he meant by that.

[Edited on 29-4-2004 by TgSoe]

My guess is that you would be suprised in the fact that it is nothing to do with the conspiracy theories that are looming about. I would suggest you just go to a lodge and ask about it. Freemasonry is not an occult and they will not push anyone to join. If you are pushed to join, then chances are that they are not free and Accepted Freemasons and are just using the name. This is something that one must decide for themselves and I am sure they will encourage you to think about it and come to a decision on your own. You will find that all are bright and upstanding gentlemen.

foolishbeing - the Princehall lodges were created when racsim was still very large in the US. Prince Hall was formed by a black man (I think his name was actually Prince Hall (not positive though)) who was a Master Mason, but due to racism was not allowed inside the white masonic temples. So, he applied for and won a charter to start his own grand lodge. There are still PrinceHall lodges, even one here in Japan. But, FreeMasonry has evolved and is not racist in the least. Either type of lodge you go to will offer the same benefits and rewards. You will also be able to visit any other lodge as well. I just would say visit both lodge if you want and just go with your heart. If you belong to either one will not make a difference to any bretheren.

Most of the "belly boys" in my area read on a 4th grade level so it's hard to imagine them effective as anything other than a barrier to the power hungry. One cannot deny the benefits of the craft and I appreciate their function as the guardians of our republic (Plato's Republic) At one time a man was proud to be a mason. Immoral characters were admitted and have caused the majority of moral men to exit leaving the blue lodge with its current roster of ill-reputes.