Originally posted by WeBDeviL
I have fully read and understood your posts: lilblam. Now, onto my arguement.

You see, your arguement is all physical laws and explanations. God is NOT physical, his son, Jesus Christ, BECAME physical, and there IS PHYSICAL EVIDENCE of a man named Jesus Christ existing. God is a spiritual thing, not a him/her. God is addressed as a him for the sake of confusion. Now, your arguement is credible, with physical laws and theories disproving God - only one problem. God is not physical, again. God is infinite. God has always been, and always will be. This is not something ANY human can clearly comprehend. Yes, you can say infinity is never ending, but that is not the meaning for God. God has always been and always will be, he is the ultimate creator. Humans cannot comprehend this because humans have beginnings and ends, we ARE NOT infinite, and God is. This is what makes him more powerful than us. Another thing - you say that "not even NOT seeing God after death will convince you" Well..uh..buddy..have you died and not seen him? No. That is what I thought. Until you die and come back to life, do not be making this assumption. You ASSUME that you will not see a God, you do not KNOW. Put that back from where you got it! That ends that arguement.

If none of this convinces you, here is a tough one. You cannot disprove or prove this statement. The statement of FAITH. God requires faith. A blind leap of faith is what God is. You must believe, in order to understand. I read your arguement, now read mine. Stop trying to disprove God with physical evidence, because it cannot be done. In order for you to disprove him, here is what you need to do.

Step 1: DIE
Step 2: See if there is a heaven and hell
Step 3: If there is a heaven and hell, see God.
Step 4: If there is no heaven and hell, go to step 5
Step 5. COME BACK ALIVE, and prove to us that there is no God.

But, wait! If there is no heaven and hell, and no afterlife, then you will not be seeing anything, will you? A lot of it requires some faith...it seems that you don't have this. . .


"we find God was NOT satisfied. He was not self sufficient, nor happy. God was lonesome, so he made at least a son and a ghost to keep him company."

OK, now one thing. WHERE in the Bible does it say that God was LONELY!! That is a ignorant statement. No where does it say that God was lonely. This is your interpretation. You find me the scripture, passage, chapter, etc, and I'll look it up. Come on, PROVE it to me



-wD

[Edited on 1-1-2004 by WeBDeviL]

Thanks for the reply. I respect you opinion, but I must also respectfully disagree on some aspects of it. First of all, I am not trying to prove God doesn't exist in physical means. This man brought up non-physical God and demonstrated why he cannot exist. But if that didn't do it for ya, there's more. Jesus, the Son of God, is apparently self-proclaimed son of God. I can say I am anything I want, it won't make it so. You say God has always been and always will be? That means he cannot create anything. He would have to be around for exactly INFINITY of time before he created ANYTHING. Do you agree with that assertion? It's perfectly mathematical. You can't throw around mathematical terms like infinity and then throw all logic away. Infinity means both ways. You can never wait around for infinity and then create something. What was he doing for exactly INFINITY of time? He can't go through infinity.. that's mathematically impossible. You can only go throw an infinite amount of time, but if there's infinity ahead of you no matter if you are God or not, you will NEVER create anything. Why? Because you'd wait infinity of time before you do. Tell me if this is too confusing. I can put it in better terms.

If he wasn't lonesome, then why the hell would he create ANYTHING? For fun? Well that means he couldn't entertain himself existing infinitely in a vacuum of nothingness. Must get boring!

Now you say God requires faith in order to understand him? Santa requires belief to know him also. Is belief = faith. Or are they different. Please clarify. Did you read the post right above that's rather lengthy titled BELIEF OR THINK. That one shows you what belief really is. If you disagree please tell me and why you disagree.

Do you think it's possible for humans to NEVER believe anything and still live and be just fine? If not, why not.

Indeed, lilblam read my arguement please. (Sorry you replied)

ShokTek! Indeed, you make a good point. Science cannot explain emotions,relationships,etc..this is something that humans KNOW, it is not something we are taught. Love cannot be explained by science. Neither can HATE, it is just something we KNOW and experience.

EDIT: Now, again, you say that all of this is perfectly logical and mathematical. God is both logical. Again, you turn to physical means to explain God "Mathematics" That is physical, God is not. You cannot prove God with Math, because some of it is Faith, understand? (Is that clear enough)

Im trying to say that you are disproving God with math, which is physical, but God is OUTSIDE of the physical realm, a place where the rules of our world and universe cease to exist.

-wD

[Edited on 1-1-2004 by WeBDeviL]

No it isn't! We don't experience LOVE! What is LOVE if you experienced it so much? Isn't it just a compilation of chemicals acting on your brain at different times such as arousal, happiness, lust, etc and together you mesh them into one big pile and spit out a name for it combined: LOVE. Hate, on the other hand can also be taken apart. When you hate someone you don't actually "feel" hate, you feel something else like anger, jealousy, confusion, mistrust, but HATE can describe any of them just as LOVE can describe a whole sh1tload of different things. And I did read your argument in full, which part did I not cover?

Math is NOT physical. By any means. Sorry!

[Edited on 1-1-2004 by lilblam]

Prove to me that hate and love is not a feeling that you expierence within your heart. Tomorrow though, I g2g for tonight! Later!


-wD

Any possible PROOF that I offer to you about "God's" lack of existance, you will just scream: your proof is physical and mathematical and logical. God is none of those things.

So what kind of illogical people came up with the idea of God? Man they must've been really crazy huh? What would prove to you God's existance.

Once again lil blam, you are trying to say that God has to fall under what we "know" to be mathematically correct. This whole debate is impossible to get anywhere...we can not prove either way that God does or does not exist, we can only draw assumptions. I for one cannot believe that we all came from some random explosion in space, and that everything just works out...

First of all, nobody FEELS with their heart. All is in your mind, buddy. Second of all, when you feel something, why do you call it by the general name like "love" and not specify what it really is like "sexual arousal maybe" or "happiness" or "laughter". It's like feeling something and saying: "I feel a FEELING!". There's 2 categories of feeling. Positive (aka LOVE) and negative (aka HATE). Then they are broken down into the ACTUAL feelings. Love isn't a feeling, it's a compilation of many other feelings put together. And hate is different feelings also, on a more negative side perhaps.

Lil Blam, do you love your family? Now PROVE to me that you do.

Originally posted by Shoktek
Once again lil blam, you are trying to say that God has to fall under what we "know" to be mathematically correct. This whole debate is impossible to get anywhere...we can not prove either way that God does or does not exist, we can only draw assumptions. I for one cannot believe that we all came from some random explosion in space, and that everything just works out...

I never said we ever came from a random explosion in space and that everything just "works out". If everything "works out" in your life etc that's fine for you and I'm happy for ya. I guess you could say it's "love" I'm feeling for ya.

And I bet I CAN prove that God does NOT exist, with logic and reason and of course, math. God IS bound by these things, because if he is NOT, then why come up with something absurd as illogical, mathematically-defiable creature in control of the entire universe and more. And you say it's FAITH? Read my next post about belief/faith. Read it PLEASE!

So, what is a Jovial Atheist? He is a person like you who wishes the very best for all of mankind and for himself. The Jovial Atheist wishes no one had to go to bed hungry, or be sick without the attention of a capable, informed medical service. He would like to see all men and women learn to use their minds to help the world rid itself from the evils which come to us from the dark and empty space of ignorance. The Jovial Atheist wishes all mankind would (or could) use their minds to separate fact from fiction, truth from tall tales and reality from the ridiculous.

Ignorance is not just something you have NOT learned. Often ignorance is something you have spent many hours, days, weeks, months and years learning. Ignorance is often something you have spent many hundreds and even thousands of dollars learning. There are even Doctor degrees (PhD.s) issued for years of learning how to be ignorant. What am I talking about? Ignorance is the ability to discard the KNOWN and PROVEN facts of life and science in order to study, learn and perpetuate the untrue, the unknown and the unbelievable. Now that IS ignorance! This type of ignorance is the REJECTION of proven facts and truth. Ignorance is believing the unbelievable. Ignorance is allowing superstition to guide our lives and goals.

The mind (intelligence) is the most marvelous development in the universe. The mind exceeds in value the stars from which comes the material of which mankind and his mind is made. An infant is born with a deep and curious quest to learn everything. What? Why? How? When? The infant mind is a sponge to absorb knowledge. It is a most powerful indexer of knowledge and the eyes of the infant sees everything as new. The infant mind is a most precious addition to the truth seeking of mankind.

Then something happens! That infant mind, which knows nothing about falsehood, about lies and about man's insanity, is told falsehoods by those in whom the infant has trust. Knowing nothing about lies, the infant accepts the falsehood as being true. From that moment on, the infant is at a loss to separate fact from fiction. He is told about Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, the Boogy Bear and so on. That infant mind is bombarded by religious tales, and prayer, and false hopes and false superiority. And these things become as real to the infant mind as is the car he is driven around in by mama and dad.

That questing infant mind is now bombarded by facts AND fictions. The infant has no way to separate the two. The adults, in whom the infant puts his trust, fail to equip the infant mind with the greatest aid needed to separate fact from fiction. The adults have failed to tell the infant questing mind that some things he is told are true, and some things are untrue. They have failed to tell the infant mind that he must honestly doubt the claims and statements made by anyone until he has studied the proposition and found them to be true or false. They have failed to equip the infant mind with the greatest aid available in determining the TRUTH. That is, the adults have failed to teach the infant mind about Honest Doubt, Research and Honest Clear Thinking in order to evaluate all claims or statements.

They have failed to instruct the infant mind to ALWAYS examine BOTH sides of any claim or statement. They failed to teach the infant mind the value of asking, "WHY?"

In sixty or less years that same questing infant mind has become hard as granite and as impervious to facts, logic and new useful knowledge as is a piece of steel. In other words, that questing infant mind has been nailed shut and crippled and in some it is destroyed. It is now capable of doing only routine work. It is no longer capable of honest, questing thought. It is no longer capable of honestly evaluating a statement or claim and determining the truth of the matter. It is no longer capable of seeing the NEW in everything. It is no longer capable of examining both sides of any political, religious or economic issue or matter.

Instead of adding to his knowledge, that granite mind now seeks to build barriers to protect the BELIEFS (ignorance) which he has substituted for knowledge and truth. In place of a wise and open mind, that granite mind now filters all incoming information through the BELIEF FILTER - FIRST. No matter how true that new information and knowledge is, and no matter how well proven that knowledge is, the granite mind rejects it because it does not conform to the beliefs which he now accepts as true. Belief (ignorance) now becomes the yard stick and barrier which binds the mind.

Belief destroys the ability to recognize facts, TO SEPARATE FACT FROM FICTION and worst of all, steals the happiness and joy which comes with a questing mind.

You are most likely somewhere between the infant questing mind and the granite mind of those who have all the answers even though they do not have a single clue to all of the questions. The Jovial Atheist is about to tell you a secret. This is a secret which will free you from the rock hard mind set which keeps you from being happy, productive, destroys personal relationships, causes war and terror of all kinds and most of all, keeps you from knowing the truth around you. This is the secret which will open your eyes to the fact, there is still more to learn about yourself and about the world. The use of this secret is also called a SIN by those whose granite minds do not wish to be disturbed, nor do they wish others in their circle of influence to be disturbed or challenged with new or contradictory facts, truths and knowledge.

This secret is the fact that knowledge and truth is determined by learning to HONESTLY DOUBT the statements and claim made daily to you. Honest Doubt is the ONLY protection which nature has given us to protect us from falsehoods, frauds and felons. Honest Doubt protects us from politicians, publishers, prophets, priests and preachers. If you wish to reclaim your infant questing mind then learn to honestly doubt what others tell you.

HONEST DOUBT IS THE BEGINNING OF WISDOM.

I AM ASKING YOU TO DOUBT EVERYTHING WHICH I SAY OR WRITE!

Now, when you honestly doubt, you must also check and see if what you are told is the real truth - or not. I would never ask you to believe me. You only believe something when you do not have the facts to prove the matter. If you have the facts to prove the matter, you can NOT believe. WHY? You can not believe because you now KNOW the truth about the subject. So, falsehood trys to give you a false alternative to knowing the facts about a matter.

Falsehood says, "Since I can not prove my claims and statements to you, and since I do not have any real facts to present to you, you must therefore, NOT DOUBT. I can not prove to you that I am right and that I am telling you the truth, so you must now BELIEVE that I am telling you the truth ." This appeal to Belief is usually followed by the threat of some dire and terrible punishment such as, "Or you will go to HELL". This hatred and FEAR of thinking HONESTLY is the intellectual property and ONLY defense of all religiously oriented minds.

The falsehood has told its followers that to think, to honestly question the claims and stories made by them, and to search for the truth of any religious or political matter, is to SIN. To examine BOTH sides of a matter, is to commit a religious SIN.

Think about that!

Do you not know that to honestly doubt wild and baseless claims is the beginning process of thinking? The first step in problem solving and finding the truth of a matter, is to honestly doubt the claims and statements. That clears the air so a person becomes FREE to evaluate and honestly think about the matter. So the falsehood tells you to NOT DOUBT and it tells you to OBEY! People do not even realize that falsehood has told the lie so many times, the lie soon becomes a cultural totem and is accepted as truth. On the other hand, to honestly doubt some wild, unbelievable claim is to sin. I have a question.

COULD AN HONEST, JUST GOD ASK US TO STOP THINKING
AND START BELIEVING?

I do not think so! Notice, I said an HONEST, JUST GOD.

***Copied from jovialatheist.com and isn't my work.

Originally posted by Sapphire
There is an afterlife, which is why human beings are so consumed by it. God does exist which is also why human beings are so consumed by a higher entity. Our Spirits feel something deep inside. And those who feel nothing, who knows. Maybe they're the Aliens amongst us

Just because people are obsessed with the ideas of an afterlife or "God" doesn't prove they exist. It may just prove that people feel like their lives are so lonely, hurtful, and pointless that they need to make up reasons for themselves to go on living. They spend their whole lives believing in God so they can go to a "better place" (be that Heaven or wherever) when they die.

God exists its jus the who he really is , is what you have be lied to about.

we need to learn how to better communicate with our god(s)

how can you deny it?

can't you feel your soul? or are some just souless? just a shell of a former being?

I've heard a theory and it's backed up by the Bible and from real life so there's TONS of evidence from it that... half the people on Earth have a soul and the other are just empty containers... created to confuse/lie/deceive and deter the souled ones. Just a thought. Also, if you can FEEL your soul, what DOES it feel like? And how do you know it's not just indigestion

Maybe you convined yourself to believe you feel it so much you actually think you do? Hmm

its feels like i am not alone in this body it feels like there is purpose to this all and its not all just osme random chaotic meaningless thing

lol and i am not even a church going christian

i sear this to you i can feel it within me

Originally posted by Lysergic
its feels like i am not alone in this body it feels like there is purpose to this all and its not all just osme random chaotic meaningless thing

lol and i am not even a church going christian

i sear this to you i can feel it within me

Well you feel you're not alone in this body. Who else is in there with you inside this body? lol (I think you mean you feel you have a soul.. but that does nothing to describe the feeling). Maybe you just believe this and I NEVER said it was all a chaotic meaningless thing, just that there's no God! I never said about not having souls, THAT I cannot refute logically. There CAN be souls without there being God, that's really simple. Think about it! Can you think of ANY WAY there could be souls but no God? Doesn't have to be "reality" just hypothetically speaking.
I CAN refute belief as belief is anti-logic. But you say you feel it. Maybe! Any details on how you feel it? Maybe you're not feeling your soul, maybe you're just a happy human being or something... people high on weed can say they feel their soul too... they might even have more reason to say that lol since they feel something that's for sure. But I doubt that it's the soul. But ya never know!

but what kind of god? it doesnt have to be the christian god of the bible

why not just a concsious flow of energy?


thats all i am really is energy? electrical signals in my brain create the exprience right?

Well sure you're just energy.. but I mean a conscious entity entitled as "God" and being all powerful is an absurd idea. If you're just talking about all-encompasing energy then of course that exists. The separate GOD that is not ONE with everything is the illusion. There is no creator/creation. There's just everything! You can call that whole chunk of everything "God", that's fine. But if you say: "There's everything... and then there's also God", that's the major deception.

Notice I never said where the "everything" came from, so don't assume the implication that it just accidentally popped out of nowhere.

[Edited on 1-1-2004 by lilblam]

Well it seems like the obvious has already been stated. But let me add: God DID NOT create the devil! Lucifer became "the devil" when he rebelled against God! God does not infringe on our free-will. I believe you cannot describe or comprehend God by logical and mathmatical means, thats not how it works. It takes faith, and with faith, you understand things you cant explain. Its a whole different language.

Oh, and God CAN create a rock even He cannot lift!!! This isnt meant to be taken literally, I believe that rock is our free-will, and God lets us choose to believe or not believe, he cannot change that. If we all believed then we wouldnt have free-will.

Faith eh? Devil eh? God eh?

So when you have faith, you begin to understand things that logic can't explain? Would faith be equivalent of illusion, imagination, creativity? I believe it would! Oh darn now I must believe something. Fine I DON'T believe it would, but what else can it be? It makes sense that it is! No matter how much FAITH you feel, the only way to understand something illogical is by making it up and stating "this has no logic.." like your dreams usually are illogical after you wake up and realize what they were. The weird thing is you accept the dream as reality and normalcy when you're in it... and when you wake up you're like.. what the hell?

But your dreams are a work of your mind. Sure some may be premonitions etc etc (it's possible) but it also fuses with imagination. Your dream can't be independent of your mind because that's where it's located isn't it?

[Edited on 1-1-2004 by lilblam]