Originally posted by elitewolverine

Originally posted by lilblam
Why is it that when I say God doesn't exist, people automatically assume that I accept the "everything happened by accident and all things in the universe just accidentally, randomly, came into place" THEORY! I DO NOT! This is NOT what I know, it's also not what I say. Pleeeease don't assume that! Just because you may know of 2 theories, doesn't mean it has to be either one or the other. It could be neither! God didn't create the universe, and the universe also didn't accidentally come into being. Maybe I should leave it like this and see if (hypothetically) someone can come up with a way the universe can exist if it's not an accident, and it wasn't purposely created by some God.

becuase what you just said is not faith therefore it can only be one thing science, and since sience cannot explain the existence of the universe, and probably never will till we have a time machine, which by current understanding still is impossible, and the fact that the present universe, you and everything in it defy the laws of physics.

so there is two options faith or science and since science as of right now will never be able to explain how something came from nothing there leaves only one thing GOD or Gods depending on how you view it.

so to presume that since you do not believe in a god, then you must believe science, is pure logic and well correct because there is only two choices.

and to take it further if you do not believe in anything science nor god then how can you sit here and argue about it, unless your on a journey to find god or science to be right, and since according to science everything comes from chaos including order, the universe did happen by 'accident' throwing your other idea right out the window....

so now choose science or god, you can choose both, as i have....but you cannot choose neither because just like in one dimension there is only two sides.

Sorry, I must respectfully disagree. First of all, you cannot believe in science. It doesn't ask for your belief... it has plenty of evidence. The mistake science often makes is that they assume false things BASED on some evidence. Example: they see universe expanding so they assume it started out as a Big Bang, based on the evidence of expansion. That assumption is ONLY an assumption. It can be false, because evidence doesn't guarantee your assumption is true (hence, it is a theory, not a proven fact). Second, faith is just pure imagination and hope that God is real. I don't have time for bullsh1t like belief and faith in my life, and I refuse to be ignorant and blind just like all religious people are. Sorry. I prefer TRUTH. You said there's 2 ways: faith and science. Faith will lead you to a lie because it's just an assumption that DOESN'T even have evidence. Science can be wrong because it often also has assumptions that, although include evidence, can be wrong. I don't assume.

Now you said science can never find out until "they" build a time machine. Wrong. Universe never had a beginning, and never will have an end. Time doesn't exist. That's objective truth. I've explained it in above posts. So even if you go back infinity of time, you still won't find a beginning - there was NEVER a beginning. Think of it like a circle. We go round and roung... but even if you start going the other way you won't find a beginning you'll just keep going and going like a friggin energizer bunny. Until your batteries run out.

Therefore, I will NOT choose between the 2 choices that YOU offer to me based on what YOU know. So let's say I know the truth, and it corresponds to neither our known science nor faith. Does this mean that because you only offer me 2 choices, I'd have to reject truth and go with what you command me to?

Exactly how do you choose science AND God. Science means you don't need faith, just do experiments and assume things based on evidence. God means don't do any experiments, just assume things for no reason except blind faith. Science, at least, makes progress... faith just sorta stays where it is. You'll never know the truth with belief. Science, the true science (without assumptions) will unravel the universe for you a piece at a time.


[Edited on 5-1-2004 by lilblam]

Originally posted by lilblam

Originally posted by WeBDeviL
Ah..now that New Year's is over..and I am back to fight again

Now, I was pondering this when I logged off yesterday night. Your arguement, lilblam, highly depends on the laws of the physical realm. But! Here's the catch. God is not OF the physical realm. The laws of physics and logic do not apply to him, as he is the ultimate, the alpha and omega. You argued that mathematical laws say that nothing cannot create something. Sure, that is true for the physical world and humans, as we are all created by another. Oh, where did the first humans come from, if nothing cannot create something? They evolved you might argue, sure, they did. But what about the beings they evolved from? And the beings that evolved from them..it keeps going back, until there is but a single organism..but what created the organism? If nothing cannot create something, where did it come from? Something put it there.

What I am getting at is that you are trying to disprove a non-physical being with physical laws, it cannot be done.

"Nothing cannot create something"

Again, God is ultimate infinity. We CANNOT comprehend that, and cannot explain it, either. Stop trying to disprove God with physical laws, when he is not physical!

"That is logically refutable to be FALSE and silly and a great"

AGAIN! You rely on the physical laws and rules! God IS NOT OF THE PHYSICAL REALM, GET OVER IT! Logic to you might not apply to him, understand?

Free will: God gave us Free will to do what we please. Sure, if we ask for help, he may interfer. This is what prayers do. If you don't ask for help, he won't help. God HAS a plan. Ask and you will receive.

"Jesus walked on water"
"Jesus brought life to a man who was dead"

^ That is the ultimate proof, how is there no God if this man did this? Surely no mere human can, can you?

Wow, lilblam, I sense some problems in your life, do I not? Many of these posts seem very very shallow, indeed. Your post about "Not feeling with your heart, buddy" Yeah, I did not mean that literally, you seem to be a very shallow and literal person, a person who "doesn't believe until they see" That is what I am getting here..

Like Shoktek said, you are assuming that God requires OUR mathematically correct laws, do you not?

Another reason that I believe you seem rather literal and shallow..

You explain "love" and "hate" with 'chemical reactions' that are triggered within the body. That is how you explain that away. Well, explain why we feel beauty in some certain things, and not others, all humans are different. If we were mere 'animals' like all the rest, we wouldn't all have individual needs and wants. All snakes are just that snakes. All dogs are just that - dogs. You feed a dog with dog food, it is going to eat it. They have primal senses, we are beyond that. We sense and know some things that cannot be explained..beauty, love, hatred, rage, fighting for what you believe in..on top of that..

-wD


[Edited on 1-1-2004 by WeBDeviL]

Great argument, but your premise is that something had to come out of something. If it's not God who put it there, then where did the FIRST race come from. Well... you ASSUME that there was a first. What if, everything that exists, has always existed, and always will exist, and there is no Alpha/Omega. It never started and will never end? It only cycles for eternity! So no one had to create anything, it always was. And math isn't physical, it's logical.

All that you see that exists, has always existed and always will exist, it's just your perception of "time" that's illusory. Your perception is that of time being real, which it's not. What do you think of that so far? I can give you evidence towards that also.

Rofl now I am shallow? You ASSUME that Jesus walked on water and brought someone back from the dead and take it for PROOF? Man.. please don't ever call me shallow again, and look in the mirror. Isn't that a little gullible? And, if God is so friggin beyond everything, then why come up with an idea of God and then spread it like a disease or a dogma all over this planet and kill people who don't believe in some magical God? Love.. beauty... ok let's see. Dogs prefer SOME dogfood over another, it's just another sense. Our eyes prefer some sights over others. Dog's taste buds also have preferences. Our ears like some music over another. Plants also prefer different types of music... if you stream heavy metal at a plant it'll probably die (experiment has been conducted before). When they streamed jazz or classical, it grew bigger than it ordinarily would and leaned toward the speaker. So not only humans have a knack for beauty. This isn't magical. It's just appealing to your senses, as a beautiful girl may be. She appeals to you because it is biologically and genetically programmed inside you to find a mate. So love is not as magical as you think it is.

I avoid topics such as these like the plague. It's not only arrogant, it's ignorant to claim that you have proof either way, IMO. The best proof I have that there is no god, is that I can't see, hear, feel him, or anything believers claim he's done. It's just an empty claim designed to control those who have poor morals otherwise, or want to feel forgiven for unforgivable acts. Most overly religious people are desperate, broken individuals who haven't the strength to control their own lives without intervention, even if it is nonexistent intervention. Others are just incapable of questioning the things they've blindly accepted.

I agree that believers would rarely accept any "evidence" to the contrary because it threatens their belief system, and often their whole life is based on it. It is threatening, and therefore rejected no matter how true it may be or how clearly it debunks their beliefs. So it is, as I've seen, pointless to argue on this matter, it is ultimately a personal choice, whether it is based on ignorance or not. So I'll no longer reply on this thread, because it won't lead anywhere. I do thank all who have replied because it taught me a few things (about people) that I admit I didn't consider before creating a thread such as this. I resign

Thanks for posting everyone, ALL your comments were appreciated. Also I have nothing against anyone on this thread personally, but certain arguments themselves I consider ignorant and baseless. Those who believe in God, let God judge them. Those who don't, let them not be judged by anyone, not even themselves. Judgement impedes objectivity.

"Sorry, I must respectfully disagree. First of all, you cannot believe in science. It doesn't ask for your belief... it has plenty of evidence. The mistake science often makes is that they assume false things BASED on some evidence. Example: they see universe expanding so they assume it started out as a Big Bang, based on the evidence of expansion. That assumption is ONLY an assumption. It can be false, because evidence doesn't guarantee your assumption is true (hence, it is a theory, not a proven fact). Second, faith is just pure imagination and hope that God is real. I don't have time for bullsh1t like belief and faith in my life, and I refuse to be ignorant and blind just like all religious people are. Sorry. I prefer TRUTH. You said there's 2 ways: faith and science. Faith will lead you to a lie because it's just an assumption that DOESN'T even have evidence. Science can be wrong because it often also has assumptions that, although include evidence, can be wrong. I don't assume.

Now you said science can never find out until "they" build a time machine. Wrong. Universe never had a beginning, and never will have an end. Time doesn't exist. That's objective truth. I've explained it in above posts. So even if you go back infinity of time, you still won't find a beginning - there was NEVER a beginning. Think of it like a circle. We go round and roung... but even if you start going the other way you won't find a beginning you'll just keep going and going like a friggin energizer bunny. Until your batteries run out.

Therefore, I will NOT choose between the 2 choices that YOU offer to me based on what YOU know. So let's say I know the truth, and it corresponds to neither our known science nor faith. Does this mean that because you only offer me 2 choices, I'd have to reject truth and go with what you command me to?

Exactly how do you choose science AND God. Science means you don't need faith, just do experiments and assume things based on evidence. God means don't do any experiments, just assume things for no reason except blind faith. Science, at least, makes progress... faith just sorta stays where it is. You'll never know the truth with belief. Science, the true science (without assumptions) will unravel the universe for you a piece at a time."

sorry you are assuming to much and are clouded by missderection.....you can believe in science, for the fact that you typed your message it was faith in science that when you went to bed you were going to wake up, that when you turn the key in your car it will start, its faith in science that let you type that message that let you click post reply button, science does need faith or how do you get theories, to be ignorant as such will be telling yourself a lie....and how can you not go to the begenning of time for this universe, one star begat this on that did this one, if you loop then your theory is constrained by time a limit impposed by science....

now im sorry that you dont have time for faith in a higher being, didnt know such lost people out there existed, but faith and the bible has proof and to make even more fun SCIENCE HAS PROOVED THE BIBLE RIGHTS ON MANY ACCOUNTS, giving FACT TO THE BIBLE. now if your so based on fact and nothing but evidence then we would have never discovered the atom because the atom was not only visioned by religious people, but was done so on faith that there is something......doing it your way, nothing would evolve.

and yes religion has evolved if you dont think so then learn something about it before you knock it.....the trasition from the old to the new testiment showed its growth, proof right there science is the not only thing that evovles...

so in the fact that you think the universe is infinite you choose science for science is the one that even puts a time frame on the universe.....oh by the way i already put your time theory to its matches....

and even so if you do loop then there is a finite end and begining, making impossible for the universe to be infinite, and theoretically time traveling would be done since you went from the end to the begining, you went somewhere...

How do i choose science and GOD, well you are not as educated in neither as i suppose to ask that, for in fact darwin was religious man, i believe that GOD has created all things, in the time frame most believe probably not, but not only does god and science co-exist in harmony but it is science that is proving god and the bible right, if you dont think so keep up with current events....i believe GOD spoke to the people in a understanding that they needed, remeber it is a old book.....

and all science is, is assumptions, assumptions that are tested some are right some are wrong, until something comes along to make it wrong it is right if you dont think so then you dont know the history of science.

but you chose science for the mere fact that you did not choose faith, but in choosing science you choose the faith of the elements and not a GOD.

and i did not give you the 2 that i know i gave you the two that are there, to not choose either is to choose nothing and if you choose nothing how can you sit here and argue the existence of anything if you believe in nothing....

[Edited on 5-1-2004 by elitewolverine]

god according the ancient scriptures like the vedas and brahma sutras which are thousands of years old and predate christainity teach that god is bliss conciousness and existensce this is the ultimate state of bieng and is one we are this all is this its origin is itself its a paradox the universe we see around us is actually a hologram this was proven by david bohm and karl pribram in holographic universe also study the kaballah it teaches that first there was the ain which is the nothing or inifinite potential beyond being itself beyond anystate ur current expereince can remember or comprehend this formed into a point called kether or the crown this is an energy center in our body god is the energy equaling matter which cant be created or destroyed god which is me and u and all things and non things is the all god manifest in 5 forms according to the ancient teachings spirit fire air water earth the 5 elements which correspond to the ancient name of god yhvh y= fire h= air = v= water h= earth these represent the 4 states of matter also plasma gases liguids solids or the spiritual plane mental plane astral plane and physical plane all these interpenetrate one another the body of god is the background of space refered to in egyptian times as NUIT the goddess of the sky u see even religions that believe in many god like hinduism ultimatley believe in one ultimate existence its called brahmin in buddhism its called nrivana in taoism its called the tao behind all religions is the inner core of mystery teachings that can be used to destroy the illuminati they know this which is why they have manipulated and taken control of all religions and belief systems and other isms 5 five elements are the pentagram the body of man arm leg leg arm head allah!!
which is what leornardo davinci drew in the middle ages he was part of the brotherhood and knew the deal man is the god in the physical plane of existence the question is will we realize out god nature or be destroyed ? anknaton is some theorize was part alien take a look at his features !! came with the law of one i believe he was killed goes to show how powerful this information really is

peace











peace

Are we spinning around on this wheel again? By its very definition, you can not prove something that can not be tested and retested to aquire the same results.

Don't get me wrong as I love debating this, but we are not debating as much as just blindly arguing in a reactionary way.

PS Truelies---If you are refering to the artical from yahoo news yesterday, the individual only proved it to 67%.

" I resign "


good idea. these kinds of arguments lead nowhere and go in/ more circles than your thoery of creation.



peace

when you are on your way out find a partner.....God may just want to take a gamble 50/50 on who to choose and who to lose ,,,, and killing god makes you a loser

There is a fundemental problem with my argument, or anyone else's in this post. The definition of what IS God is missing. The existance or lack of it depends on what one defines as God. Creator of existance? This will be a trick answer, but yes, that exists. The tricky part, is that creation and creator would have to be one and the same (let me explain please). This is a non-linear concept, and not an easy thing for a linear mind. However, if God was indeed SEPARATE from creation, then he had to wait around FOREVER before he created anything, since he HAS to be eternal. Something HAD to always exist for anything to ever exist. FOREVER never ends, and therefore if he created something, this means that forever must've ENDED, his wait is OVER, and creation was manifested.

This is a contradiction to eternity, as it cannot end, otherwise it wouldn't BE eternity. How do you avoid such a contradiction? By not looking at time linearly, as a "time line". This is simply not so! I ask that you please think about this very very hard, as I am, and it's still hard to grasp, as my mind is just as linear as anyone else's. Difficult, but not impossible that is.

Why does the contradiction exist? Why couldn't you just keep going backwards forever? Because we didn't START where we are now, we ARRIVED here. In order to arrive here, we had to GO THROUGH whatever lies between our "ORIGIN" and our current "location" in TIME. The problem is, our origin is INFINITY away (or at least God's origin.. whatever it is, it's still infinity away). The only way to get to HERE is to go through this infinity. By going through infinity, we contradict the very nature of infinity, which is that it doesn't end.

PLEASE think about this before rushing to judgement! Having NO ORIGIN, is precisely how this infinity of time in the past can ever exist, and why we cannot exist, if it does.

What is the point I'm making? Well there are a few.

1. Time is NOT linear, and does not exist in the way we understand it, not even anywhere CLOSE to how we understand it. Therefore, what we see as time doesn't exist, as it creates a contradiction I outlined above.

2. God and creation ARE one and the same, because time is not linear. Anything that is created in reality already WAS, IS, and WILL be, since time doesn't exist (meaning no past/present/future). Just think about that little concept for a bit.

So what?

All things that could EVER happen already ARE! All that could ever exist, DOES. Anything that is possible, IS!

If given an infinity of time to happen, won't EVERYTHING happen at least once? If you take that "infinity" and truncate it into a simultaneous existance of EVERYTHING, what you get is.. well reality. How can we see time?

Same way we watch a movie. The frames on the tape exist all together, but after looking at each frame individually in a steady progression, it creates an illusion that there's a linear passage of time. The only thing that's really happening, is our FOCUS is concentrated on ONE FRAME AT A TIME. However, the frames already exist simultaneously, don't they? So now think about reality... see the correlation?

So what kind of God can possibly EXIST? Well, in order to be ALL-POWERFUL, you would by necessity have to be EVERYTHING THAT EXISTS. This is simple to explain:

Can you personally see all the numbers on an infinite number line? The more numbers you see at once, the more "power" you have. Let's say you ZOOM OUT far from the number line, and you can now see MORE numbers. You are MORE powerful now. You keep zooming out, but will you ever see INFINITY of numbers? No, you will simply see A LOT, and keep zooming out FOREVER. So how do you actually see ALL the numbers? By BEING all the numbers. If you ARE all the numbers, then of course you can SEE all of them, because there is no number that is NOT part of YOU!

Therefore, God has to be ALL THAT EXISTS in order to be aware of all that exists, otherwise he could only be aware of a large CHUNK, but never EVERYTHING. Everything that exists HAS NO LIMIT, just like a number line.

All I ask is that (whoever is reading this) you simply THINK about these ideas, and do not rush. Give it time to sink in, play with these ideas, take them apart, examine them individually, then mentally place them together again. Even if you are religious, will you be punished just for READING and THINKING about ideas?

That is all.

[Edited on 3-4-2004 by lilblam]

Wow I can’t believe I actually read this entire thread. Lol, let me start by saying, yes I am a Christian. I do believe in god, and I do believe that Jesus was his son. Also I have to say that all of you write like you just graduated from Grammar school of the Stars. You all write so well, I don’t know how I can make a post without looking stupid because of all of my misspellings, wrong word usage, and incorrect punctuation,. I guess I am asking for every one to grit their teeth with me.

Now, onto the topic….

God does, and will, forever be. How do I know, Because of things in my life that he has done for me. Now this presents a problem, because I can not prove what has happened to me. Why?

First to understand me you must understand what the biggest thing about God is. Faith of course, now this is the reason no one gets miracles on tape. Let me explain

If there was proof of God, then that would essentially be a free ticket to heaven. I mean if God came down right now and said “hey what’s going on guys?” Then you would in a instant know he existed. And it would be my bet that you would be almost monk like in faith. But you see God does not want that, he wants you to believe. So I guess what I am saying is, other than finding god through religion, you will never be able to prove his existence. And when you do/if find him through faith. You will never be able to prove it to anyone else. You can persuade them, but not prove.

What irritates me is that a lot of you think that being a Christian= being naïve or stupid, gullible, blind, or irrational. Now this may not have been said directly, but I think we can all agree it has been implied many times. But why? Because you think you have proof of your side. Well you don’t, a lot of people may resort to the string theory, black matter, the big bang. But they are all theories, and on top of that, even if they were fact, it still would not disprove God one tiny minuet bit.

My wife, so beautiful, filled with wisdom and beauty used to have a problem. You see when she was a child she had a massive under bite. Her teeth were slanted, and all over the place. The only option given to her parents by the dentist/sergeants was to actually break her jaw on both sides in 14 to 16 places. A man prayed for her, she now has perfect teeth with absolutely no trace of under bite. This happened so fast that her surgery was cancelled by the doctors. They were in udder disbelief, to give you guys some perspective, this was when she was 2. That is how bad it was, they wanted to do this operation at the tender age of 2.

I was playing basketball one time and I went in to get something to drink. While inside my friend motioned for me to come to the window. So I did, he then proceeded to lean over some small flowers and yell “get me a drink too!” Me being a immature asshole, I kept saying , what, what, I cant hear you. Did I mention he was using the window to support himself. lol , anyway he fell through the window. There were about 5 people around that saw him fall through the window, well to say it better saw the glass break... And that’s all we remembered. No one could remember how the hell he got on the out side of the window laying down. He should have by all means fell into my house. Seeing how his hands went a good 2 feet into the house, and he never made a attempt to correct his body position. He had a pretty good gash through his hand, but he was alright. Now I am sure you are saying get to the dam point. And I assure you I am. The glass was almost all out of the window except for one jagged piece that stuck straight up, right in the middle. Well my friend left pretty visible foot prints in the flower bed he was standing in. We all kind of spoke about how weird it was that no one could remember how he got on the outside. Then I heard “dam, holy crap” I turned around to see him standing in his foot prints and leaning in using the wall as a brace. When he fully leaned in and reproduced how his body went when he fell, the piece of glass came exactly to a point in the dead center of his throat. All of us kind of went, “woah” There are many other instances of spiritualism in my life. To many to write. Well for now anyways. I have seen evil , ghost. Evil in all its forms, and if the things that God does for you in you life aren’t enough to convince you of him. Then seeing evil is, because as we all know God comes with the devil and vice versa, there is no one, without the other. This was when I was younger, around 12/13. I will admit I am only 20 , although I am married, and independent. So that being said I have the opportunity of knowing a incredible minister. He is my wife’s dad. He can answer any question you guys have, and I have to stress that he is no run of the mill minister. In fact he has been studying the Bible for well over 30 years. He has only been a minister for maybe a year. But like I said any questions you guys have can be answered. Well there is my story and .02 cents, I am sure I will chime in again…. Peace Guys

good luck or bad luck does not prove the existance or none existance of god.

the fact that someone prayed for your wife is coincidence, it does not mean god stepped in and helped her. why would god help your wife with jaw problems and then forget to help millions of kids in africa with food problems ? was your wifes looks more important than peoples lives in gods eyes?

you had some luck and assummed it to be the work of god.

Well lilbam tell me where did EVERYTHING come from????? What are you going to tel me some bull$hit about energy or matter???????????????????? Thats bull$hit. Energy couldn't have come from anywhere. So there is a God.

God does exist. Pray to him and find out. If you have problems aks him to help you out. He will thats how you know that he exists. I prayed to him a lot of times and he has helped me. Even the siplest stupid things when i cant find something for 2 hours (actually happend i lost my keys) I prayed to him and about 10 secinds later i find my keys. God does exist and i have seen him in 3 different forms. One was when i was 4 years old. I saw him out the window when i was lerning the God's Prayer from the Bible with my grandma. I saw him out the wondow, and i know for a fact that he does exist. Scinecetists say that Earth was created by some energy $hit and a big bang. Where did the energy come from???It had to come from somewhere right? Well it was God. Now you might ask 'well where did God come from???' Well God doesnt want you to know where he came from. He doesnt want anyone to know. Exept maybe whn you are in heaven with him.

Originally posted by AD5673
Energy couldn't have come from anywhere. So there is a God.

Think more like, The energy is all ways there, all ways been there. Just in diffrent forms. The energy is in constent motion, always changing over millions of years. If everything we know about space is true, Some time in the future black holes will eat everything, and over more time One big black hole, and at the point the Giant black hole consumes the last peice of matter. The Big Bang starts over. Just a thought.

[Edited on 3-4-2004 by SpittinCobra]

There is a HUGE question missing in this thread.

What is God? Define God! Even if you don't believe you have to define what you are arguing against.

Myself, God = everything. LORD God = Celestial 'being'.

Originally posted by Jonna
Are we spinning around on this wheel again? By its very definition, you can not prove something that can not be tested and retested to aquire the same results.

Don't get me wrong as I love debating this, but we are not debating as much as just blindly arguing in a reactionary way.

PS Truelies---If you are refering to the artical from yahoo news yesterday, the individual only proved it to 67%.

BAHAHAH I wouldn't read Yahoo anything!!
I gave you the link so maybe if you were to click on it, you will see where it leads.. And it's not yahoo...


Btw do you believe in ghosts?? Do you also believe in what politicians say if they have no proof to back it up?
Or do you blindly follow??

I beleive God has always been and will always be. When I focus on this I realize that God is an infinite being that doesn't revolve around time as His creation does. So time has no meaning to God except in His creation. He can be everywhere in His creation. He can do anything in His creation. He can know everything about His creation. God created time and He doesn't necessarily have to work in time, but He can manifest Himself through time if He wishes.

God = creator, omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent

[Edited on 3-4-2004 by bugman5999]