Originally posted by AlecEiffel
Oh, and God CAN create a rock even He cannot lift!!! This isnt meant to be taken literally, I believe that rock is our free-will, and God lets us choose to believe or not believe, he cannot change that. If we all believed then we wouldnt have free-will.

So if we have free will to believe or not, doesn't prayer mean telling God what to do, and violating HIS free will to do whatever the hell he wants? If he gave us free will.. it doesn't just mean to believe or not to believe. It means he has no right to interfere AT ALL with ANYTHING in the entire creation. If he cannot interfere, we would have no idea of his existance then, would we? If he forced himself on us and claimed he exists then he violated our free will - what if we didn't want a God? Our free will is limitless after all! Or is our free will kinda like our constitution in USA. You THINK it would apply to everything/everyone but then parts of it are changed/erased/ignored and soon maybe the whole thing is scrapped. Darn, I sure hope "God" doesn't change his mind as often as he does in the Bible! Everyone would go awol with his indecisiveness.

Originally posted by worshipthemoon

Originally posted by Sapphire
There is an afterlife, which is why human beings are so consumed by it. God does exist which is also why human beings are so consumed by a higher entity. Our Spirits feel something deep inside. And those who feel nothing, who knows. Maybe they're the Aliens amongst us

Just because people are obsessed with the ideas of an afterlife or "God" doesn't prove they exist. It may just prove that people feel like their lives are so lonely, hurtful, and pointless that they need to make up reasons for themselves to go on living. They spend their whole lives believing in God so they can go to a "better place" (be that Heaven or wherever) when they die.

It goes beyond obsession, its a deep inner feeling within that begs for purpose in our lives. We exist beyond flesh and blood. There are too many people who have seen things that exist beyond 'This' life to merely say "It can't exist because I haven't seen anything yet".

If we do INDEED have free will, that means God did NOT violate the free will and never introduced himself! That means even if he did exist, we would NEVER Know it until we asked. So we came up with an idea of God and then looked up into the sky and said: "I just thought of an idea of an all-powerful creator, I mean why not it sounds cool enough. Do you exist, sir? I give you the right to announce your presence to me now, without violating my free will as I have requested it." Then nothing but crickets are heard chirping. Well God's answer was probably: "I am everything and everyone, you dumb piece of meat! The crickets you hear are also ME, and you look up into some sky to search for me? As if I'm in some location? I'm all that is! Don't expect someone to show up and claim to be me, as that's a deception."

Jesus walked on water
Jesus gave life to a man that was dead

Mabe the universe is a universe in a universe.

I never said life after death doesn't exist or ANYTHING else of the sort. The ONLY thing I refute is God, the almighty entity that created everything there is. That is logically refutable to be FALSE and silly and a great lie. Everything else about souls/afterlife etc is a big *unknown* and not logically provable either way. Only the creator has no business existing

Originally posted by akummma
Jesus walked on water
Jesus gave life to a man that was dead

Mabe the universe is a universe in a universe.

Jesus never walked on water. That's a lie. If it isn't, what makes you so sure he did Just curious, no offense! How do you know Jesus even existed. I can say Santa brought me presents every year with just as much merit! I'm not saying Jesus didn't exist, I'm just showing you that what you know is just something you've heard or read in some religious document. Even our money can be falsified, and that's HARD! How easy would it be to make up a book like the Bible or compile it from other religions and shove'em into one? Hah! Piece of cake!

.. then one die I discovered my mommy writing "from Santa" on one of my presents, and my belief would be shattered to pieces. Maybe one day you'll notice proof of the fact that Bible was man-made.. or alien-made. Maybe alien-inspired. Either way, it's not from God, the creator that's for damn sure.

[Edited on 1-1-2004 by lilblam]

Here's the deal:

God=explanation

Everything that can't be explained yet, is chalked up to "God". The Sun used to come because of "God". The tide used to happen because of"God". Then people (Newton, Archamedes, Capernicus, Eic...) figured out why those things happened. When everything can be explained, "God" will finally be dead. Until then, let the naive believe. It's how the unexplained is explained, "God did it.", it's the catch all explaination,

Needless to say, I forgot what I was saying but, I hope I made a point anyways!



[Edited on 1/1/04 by NotTooHappy]

[Edited on 1/1/04 by NotTooHappy]

For the past few years, I have had a crisis of faith.My personal debate as to whether or not God exists. I found it hard to believe in a creator God when all the science,technology, and modern thought showed otherwise. I became increasingly isolated and detached. Removed from the outside world. I believe this experience allowed me to think more objectively.I realized that 1000 years ago, people knew the world was flat.all they had to do was walk on it.they were always on a relatively flat surface,so it was obvious. Then, as science(and mans awareness)grew,it was proven that the world is a sphere.I suddenly understood something,every Age believes that it is the pinnacle of intelligence. To believe that our science has, or ever could advance to the point of being able to truly prove or disprove ANYTHING is PURE HUMAN ARROGANCE.We can use the reason and logic of the most intelligent minds on Earth,but these are still the tools of human minds.And therefor flawed.

Ask yourself this,which is more scientifically plausible? That an infinite number of tumblers just happened to fall in an infinite number of correct spaces, thereby creating a system that could allow life to exist; or that an intelligent,creative force was behind its infinitely complicated design. For me, Science and reason do not disprove God exists.It simply reaffirms our natural arrogance.

Originally posted by Paladin
For the past few years, I have had a crisis of faith.My personal debate as to whether or not God exists. I found it hard to believe in a creator God when all the science,technology, and modern thought showed otherwise. I became increasingly isolated and detached. Removed from the outside world. I believe this experience allowed me to think more objectively.I realized that 1000 years ago, people knew the world was flat.all they had to do was walk on it.they were always on a relatively flat surface,so it was obvious. Then, as science(and mans awareness)grew,it was proven that the world is a sphere.I suddenly understood something,every Age believes that it is the pinnacle of intelligence. To believe that our science has, or ever could advance to the point of being able to truly prove or disprove ANYTHING is PURE HUMAN ARROGANCE.We can use the reason and logic of the most intelligent minds on Earth,but these are still the tools of human minds.And therefor flawed.

Ask yourself this,which is more scientifically plausible? That an infinite number of tumblers just happened to fall in an infinite number of correct spaces, thereby creating a system that could allow life to exist; or that an intelligent,creative force was behind its infinitely complicated design. For me, Science and reason do not disprove God exists.It simply reaffirms our natural arrogance.

OK, an infinate amount of tumblers, given an infinate amount of time would eventually fall in to place. ( The infinate number of monkeys on an infinate number of typewriters theory). I understand where you're coming from.

I'm a huge fan of the British TV series "Red Dwarf". In some wierd, inadvertant way, it kinda explained the nature of the univirce (how I see it.). OK, here we go.

It's virtually undisputed that "Black holes" are spacial/gravitational anomilies that devour/destrory space/time. Well, every action needs an opposite and equal reaction, right? That's where the "White hole" comes in to play.
Where a "Black hole" destroys energy, a "White hole" creates energy at the same rate.

So, our univerce is a closed system, with recycled energy......or something!


I'm loaded so tell me if I'm wrong.

I think that things are too perfectly set in order to say there is no God or Gods that created everything we see. For instance if we were any closer to the sun we could not survive because it would be too hot. Any farther and we would all freeze to death. That at least suggests that we were designed for our climate.

how about just believing what you want. why are some so eager to disprove god, was it because religion was pushed on you at one time or what? god to me is a 50/50, on one side your wrong, on one side your right, my thinking is i'll take god's side, and if there is no god and i'm wrong, no big deal the worms crawl in the worms crawl out, but what if your wrong and there is a god? just believe what you want and leave it at that, that is why god has given us free will.

Has lilblam converted to Catholicsm yet?

I'll be back.

Originally posted by Paladin
To believe that our science has, or ever could advance to the point of being able to truly prove or disprove ANYTHING is PURE HUMAN ARROGANCE.We can use the reason and logic of the most intelligent minds on Earth,but these are still the tools of human minds.And therefor flawed.

Ask yourself this,which is more scientifically plausible? That an infinite number of tumblers just happened to fall in an infinite number of correct spaces, thereby creating a system that could allow life to exist; or that an intelligent,creative force was behind its infinitely complicated design. For me, Science and reason do not disprove God exists.It simply reaffirms our natural arrogance.

Yes, this is what I was trying to say...if you just stop and think about our world and how everything works, and how we even exist at all, you must realize that there is a God. Science can be used to explain life, but not beauty or love or things that we simply cannot scientifically explain...this is because it would take a more powerful being to create us this way.

Originally posted by lilblam

Originally posted by AlecEiffel
Oh, and God CAN create a rock even He cannot lift!!! This isnt meant to be taken literally, I believe that rock is our free-will, and God lets us choose to believe or not believe, he cannot change that. If we all believed then we wouldnt have free-will.

So if we have free will to believe or not, doesn't prayer mean telling God what to do, and violating HIS free will to do whatever the hell he wants? If he gave us free will.. it doesn't just mean to believe or not to believe. It means he has no right to interfere AT ALL with ANYTHING in the entire creation. If he cannot interfere, we would have no idea of his existance then, would we? If he forced himself on us and claimed he exists then he violated our free will - what if we didn't want a God? Our free will is limitless after all! Or is our free will kinda like our constitution in USA. You THINK it would apply to everything/everyone but then parts of it are changed/erased/ignored and soon maybe the whole thing is scrapped. Darn, I sure hope "God" doesn't change his mind as often as he does in the Bible! Everyone would go awol with his indecisiveness.

Ehhh, you're really stretching it. What does exactly "free-will" mean in God's eyes? We don't know. Whoever seeks the truth shall find it. If you dont seek the truth, you wont find it. This is part of free-will. You say "interfere" but for the people who seek the truth, its help. A much needed help. Anways, free-will: Done of one's own accord; voluntary. If you voluntarily seek God, you will find Him. He doesnt force it on you.

ahhh religious debates... well heres my 2cents...

k why do u wanna question god's exhistance if he exhists he exhists but were never going to actually see god even when we die anyway...

then u look at human history WE created god we created religion... ever since those dam dirty apes hoped out of trees started walking up right and stoped leaving there dead to be eaten by sabertooth tigers and started burying them in the earth eventually they becamemore and more ornate evolving over time into a basic form of religion religion is the biggest cruch for mans biggest weakness our own mortality.... but what do i know im compleetly hi.......

Ask yourself this,which is more scientifically plausible? That an infinite number of tumblers just happened to fall in an infinite number of correct spaces, thereby creating a system that could allow life to exist; or that an intelligent,creative force was behind its infinitely complicated design.

I love this argument.

Lets see if I got this right God has to exist because life cannot be created from nothing, right?

So a living God had to create life... wait a minute that wont work because you cant have life (God) being created from nothing.

So this arguement to prove god disproves him.

BUT it also PROVES that life does NOT exist because it had to start SOMEWHERE be it God or the big bang or whatever.

I have had a near death experence so I know you go on after death to where or what I havent a clue and I hate to tell yall this ......neither do you

Did you ever think it might not be about the destination but maybe its about the trip?

Just a thought

Ah..now that New Year's is over..and I am back to fight again

Now, I was pondering this when I logged off yesterday night. Your arguement, lilblam, highly depends on the laws of the physical realm. But! Here's the catch. God is not OF the physical realm. The laws of physics and logic do not apply to him, as he is the ultimate, the alpha and omega. You argued that mathematical laws say that nothing cannot create something. Sure, that is true for the physical world and humans, as we are all created by another. Oh, where did the first humans come from, if nothing cannot create something? They evolved you might argue, sure, they did. But what about the beings they evolved from? And the beings that evolved from them..it keeps going back, until there is but a single organism..but what created the organism? If nothing cannot create something, where did it come from? Something put it there.

What I am getting at is that you are trying to disprove a non-physical being with physical laws, it cannot be done.

"Nothing cannot create something"

Again, God is ultimate infinity. We CANNOT comprehend that, and cannot explain it, either. Stop trying to disprove God with physical laws, when he is not physical!

"That is logically refutable to be FALSE and silly and a great"

AGAIN! You rely on the physical laws and rules! God IS NOT OF THE PHYSICAL REALM, GET OVER IT! Logic to you might not apply to him, understand?

Free will: God gave us Free will to do what we please. Sure, if we ask for help, he may interfer. This is what prayers do. If you don't ask for help, he won't help. God HAS a plan. Ask and you will receive.

"Jesus walked on water"
"Jesus brought life to a man who was dead"

^ That is the ultimate proof, how is there no God if this man did this? Surely no mere human can, can you?

Wow, lilblam, I sense some problems in your life, do I not? Many of these posts seem very very shallow, indeed. Your post about "Not feeling with your heart, buddy" Yeah, I did not mean that literally, you seem to be a very shallow and literal person, a person who "doesn't believe until they see" That is what I am getting here..

Like Shoktek said, you are assuming that God requires OUR mathematically correct laws, do you not?

Another reason that I believe you seem rather literal and shallow..

You explain "love" and "hate" with 'chemical reactions' that are triggered within the body. That is how you explain that away. Well, explain why we feel beauty in some certain things, and not others, all humans are different. If we were mere 'animals' like all the rest, we wouldn't all have individual needs and wants. All snakes are just that snakes. All dogs are just that - dogs. You feed a dog with dog food, it is going to eat it. They have primal senses, we are beyond that. We sense and know some things that cannot be explained..beauty, love, hatred, rage, fighting for what you believe in..on top of that..

-wD


[Edited on 1-1-2004 by WeBDeviL]

Originally posted by lilblam
Read the following 2 posts in FULL, and only then comment. If this doesn't convince you, then even death and not seeing God afterwards won't convince you either.. NOTHING will! Trust me these are mind blowing.

I know this is long, but try to understand and give me your thoughts.

I read the posts, and I have a little bit of a response. To start off, I am not a person who studies the bible, or goes to church. I don't believe in a god.

Your logic is clean, but is missing one point. All questions about life and existence come down to two final questions. Those questions are, "does infinity exist?" and, "what is infinity?". The human mind is incapable of understanding infinity (you actually started to make that point in a round about way). Thats why these are the final questions. Everything in our lives and knowledge has boundries. We cannot visualize or conceive something that does not. We can say "god is infinite" or "time is infinite". We can try to imagine it. The problem is that we really cant understand or comprehend it.

That being said...we are unable to know what was here before the universe (because that would have had to be something infinite). We are also unable to know that the universe is infinite. We just cant comprehend that either. That means we have questions that simply cannot be answered (at least by humans). Not being able to answer these questions will always leave room for a god.

The statement "god created the universe" is just as logocal as saying there is no god as a result of this logic. Someone saying that a god exists has just as big as an argument as someone saying a god does not exist. We cant answer the questions that would solve the problem.

I think alot of christian bible readers are barking up the wrong tree when they defend themselves by quoting from a book that clearly does not coincide with reality. That book was written by people who were trying to explain away the concept of infinity (in my opinion). The same goes for all religions. The reason they are here is clear. We can't answer all the questions put in front of us.

Religious people should realize this argument and use it more frequently. The problem with them is they refuse to think for themselves. They regurgitate information given to them by people that they never sat back and questioned. To be quite honest, I have been criticized by religious people for questioning obvious discrepancies. The act of trying to understand should not be such an ordeal to someone, unless they are forcing themselves to believe something they know deep down is unlikely.

[Edited on 1/1/2004 by Seapeople]

Read all of my replies in full, please. I have made the "infinity" argue, and I am a Roman Catholic, who does think for himself

I have made this infinity arguement and how we cannot comprehend it because we have beginnings and ends. He has yet to reply to this.

-wD

Originally posted by WeBDeviL
Read all of my replies in full, please. I have made the "infinity" argue, and I am a Roman Catholic, who does think for himself

I have made this infinity arguement and how we cannot comprehend it because we have beginnings and ends. He has yet to reply to this.

-wD

I apologize for that Webdevil. I have a question for you though.

A while back I made a post, it was a question on whether or not humans could understand infinity. Half of the responses were made by people claiming that they could. Citing things as my "logic" and Reasoning" for blocking my ability. I thopught about it for a long time, wondering if I was actually unable to comprehend something that other people were capable of.

Finally your question:

Do you think it is possible, that the people who think they can understand infinity are actually less educated on the concept?

I have came to the conclusion that anyone who says they can understand it, must not even know what the word truly means. Let me know....and sorry about repeating your arguments.