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Proof That God Does Not Exist ! (updated)

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posted on Jan, 1 2004 @ 05:08 PM
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Oh, SP, no problem, just didn't know if you saw it or not



Now, onto your questions..

So, your saying that if someone says they can truly comprehend infinity, it makes them less educated on the subject?

Yeah, I might say so. Why? Because even scientists agree that humans cannot understand it, because we do indeed have beginnings and endings. Now, for a person to say they could understand infinity, that would probably make them ignorant to the facts. Anyone who says they can fully understand it must be confused on the true meaning...that is my opinion on that subject


EDIT: Forgot this


If you think about how God is infinite, and how he has been there forever, and nothing has created him, but he just - was. Think about that. It creates sort of a merry-go-round in your mind, I sometimes get a headache over trying to understand how he can be there forever. I mean forever, he just has been there..mindboggling to me


-wD

[Edited on 1-1-2004 by WeBDeviL]




posted on Jan, 1 2004 @ 05:20 PM
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You have forgotten some basic facts of logic. And since you try to use logic to disprove god, your entire statement has failed since you used logic improperly. First of all you cant prove a negative god does not exist is a negative therefore not a provable statement Second logic is based on the universe around us and the human interpretation of it. Scientific theory has suggested that there are other possible realties and our logic can only work for this one. ( This point is real out there, since we only exist in this realty its a irrelevant point. However it shows how flaws can exit in this type of logic.) Thirdly It is possible for the unlogical to exist, this fact can be supported by logic it self. And finally there no certainties in logic or science.

Another thing is that your logic is not cohesive there seems to be lot philosophy and metaphysics which is not based on logic.

In truth I think you have presented little to no logic in your argument. I personally do not care if god does not exist or does. All power to you to try to prove he does not exist but please try use logic when you say you are using it.



posted on Jan, 1 2004 @ 07:48 PM
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Well said their arcane..now are you an atheist or not lol I couldn't tell. Nonetheless, it was well said.

I have pretty much stated my arguement over the past few pages, and am awaiting your comeback : - )

-wD



posted on Jan, 1 2004 @ 07:59 PM
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I guess you guys took over the conversation just fine without me
If there's any threads addressed to me or in general I'll get to them in order as I have time. Not at this moment though



posted on Jan, 1 2004 @ 08:00 PM
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Welcome back! Glad to get this debate rolling again. I've already made my statements


-wD



posted on Jan, 1 2004 @ 08:03 PM
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god does not exist.. he's watching us



posted on Jan, 1 2004 @ 08:09 PM
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Why try so hard to convince people that God does not exist? If you don't believe it, then it shouldn't even concern you if others do.

I think folks who work hard to discount it are actually - in their hearts - afraid of it. Otherwise, it wouldn't be on your radar.

This is no disrespect, Lilblam. It's just that believing in God is a matter of faith. Pure and simple. One either chooses to believe in God or one doesn't. It's every person's right to make that choice.



posted on Jan, 1 2004 @ 08:14 PM
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We should eventually end up to the place where it's not a matter of faith anymore. When it's a matter of pure and simple knowing that God exists.



posted on Jan, 1 2004 @ 08:31 PM
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Yes, once you reach that place, Bandit, you are definately on the right track.


-wD



posted on Jan, 1 2004 @ 08:45 PM
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Where did god come from you all might be asking. Well lets see, back when man did not have the resources we have now or the knowledge we have now they were looking for something to explain why things happen. Thus god was made up in our minds to help explain these occurances and as we got smarter we started to prove that these other things caused these occurances and not god yet because or parents told us about god, god keeps getting passed down to each generation thus keeping the belief alive that whatever we cannot explain right now that it must be an act of god. As time goes on and we become more knowledgable more people wil lose faith until god is no longer believed in and these discussions will not be necessary.



posted on Jan, 1 2004 @ 09:07 PM
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Nice there Benoit, but have you read my arguement..if you haven't, please do. There are some things that humans feel inside that science will never be able to explain, emotions that science will explain with "chemical reactions" Sure, that makes physical sense, but someone or something had to have put it there, humans have emotions other "animals" don't have. If there was no God, we would be nothing but "animals" even though we have emotions - things animals don't have.

-wD



posted on Jan, 1 2004 @ 10:08 PM
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To deny that there is atleast some higher power working all around us all the time is way more ignorant than putting blind faith in a GOD. If this is all just kind of pointless and nothing we do in our lives means anything when it is all said and done then why don't I just shoot the next person I see walking down the street? It doesn't matter.

here is my views on Jesus. I don't think we are accurate in what jesus said because what he said was written down WAY after he died. If I tried to write down what Lil Blam has been saying today in even a month I would probably have half of it wrong. Nevermind hundreds of years. I think Jesus was saying that we all have the powers he did. Jesus walked on water. People who look deep within themselves and become very connected through yoga and other spiritual means can aven levitate. Maybe Jesus was just setting an example and showing us what we are all capable of if we just stretch our minds a little. If a guy comes up to you claiming to be in touch with God, he is crazy or he is right. When he starts rising from the dead and living for 40 days without food or water and walking on water, maybe he is right. Those who feared that there was a God killed Jesus for what he said. I don't think those people got away with that one. There is no way to tell what is going on, but there is way more than we can comprehend. If there was one or 2 weird things going on in this world I would say coincidence, but everyday more and more inexplicable things keep happening. God may not be some guy with a long white beard, but denying "it's" existence is kind of ignorant to what is going on around you and within you



posted on Jan, 1 2004 @ 11:10 PM
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Its true, some of the Bible has been changed throughout the ages, meaning we might not have all of the truths. I agree though, if life meant nothing and it didn't matter because we just are, we have no special purpose or aren't trying to be loved, I could go out on a killing spree and it wouldn't matter - but it does. Another thing that might lean towards the proof of a higher power. A conscienceness. If we just are and are just "animals" with no purpose, and aren't living to try and access a greater "plane" of existance, then why do we have a conscienceness? Other animals do not, because they are just here. We have some greater purpose. Guilt is not something that can be explained away by science, its a feeling inside, something you just know, but cannot use any sense to explain, you just KNOW it. Likewise, I KNOW there is a God, I do not know how, but I do, nonetheless.

-wD



posted on Jan, 5 2004 @ 04:48 AM
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now that is way to long to quote so i will cut and paste your jargon.

"Every possible form which energy and/or matter can take, must be in use and exists today in time and space. Why? Because we are always in the middle of Eternity. Eternity is a two way street. Eternity runs both ways don't you know. These forms will include universes about which we know nothing. It will include undiscovered transformations of energy/matter, and any other undiscovered condition, forms or expressions which energy and/or matter may take. "

to understand our modern time and space we put them in a physical state, what was before the big bang, our universe came from something and that something existed before time and space before our universe, and since that it rules out thoms law, and its meaning for the fact that something came from nothing becuz there is no way you can sit there and tell me the big bang is a concrete idea, in fact over half the scientist believe in god and in the fact that the big bang theory is there only to let our minds grasp reality and our universe.

"That is, the Christians give God a good, moral and powerful character. Now character can not be developed in a vacuum. Character must be developed by trial and error. Character must be developed by finding out what is good and what works. To do this one must also find out what is bad and does not work. Character must always answer the question, "Why?" in order to develop. Character is a growth process.

Therefore, there must have been other individuals and intelligences with whom God could interact in order to develop a good character. There must be at least a family of them. Therefore, God is not alone. So, other intelligence demands some type of setting in which they could interact. They must have a place, a home of sorts. So we now must allow God to have at least a family, a home and a setting, or a place of operating, in order to develop his character. So that is strike two against a creator God being by HIMSELF, and at the same time having both a good character and ultimate science knowledge. God could not decree himself a good character or vast scientific knowledge. He would not know what was good or what to decree. He must have developed that knowledge."

well if you read the bible which i trust you have not and only picked and choosen those which go with your theory "sign of a non christian and well satan not saying your satan" but you would have read the part where god says lucifer/satan was cast out of the heavens along with his followers into hell or their heaven, it also mentions that this was done before the existence of man, and if that is so then your character statement has no credibility or speech statement, becuz there were angels before us already in heaven, therefore it also leaves the idea open for the fact that the angels were aliens or another human race gone wrong or right and maybe still exist somewhere.

and if so god has does this before.

now your translation arguement, it has been translated many times, but the jewish word for that time frame did not consist of pluralism for god because god is not plural, which leaves it open for translation, and plurals werent even defined in their language it is a understood plural just like you find in spanish or latin or sacilian or babylonian or assyrian. etc.

"Now it is a fact, you can not put a strain on zero. You can multiply it. You can divide it. You can add it. You can kick zero around, abuse it, smash it, cast it aside and guess what? It is still a perfect zero. So I do here by declare ZERO to be the only perfect number in the universe. Nothing you can do to it changes the value of ZERO. It is always and for ever - ZERO. You just can not get anything out of ZERO except ZERO. And NOTHING is ZERO. And ZERO is NOTHING. A God did not and COULD NOT come out of ZERO."

zero in higher math can be altered, in fact zero is not so perfect, once you get into theoretical math zero is not used because of the fact that zero is so non-perfect.

damn i feel so mean right now cutting your aurgument to peices and even beating it by simple logic.

last one
"Since the Old Testament God told his tale first and then the New Testament God plagiarized his work, I must assume the New Testament God is the real liar in this case. Of course, if you do not wish to give the New Testament God the credit for this lie, you could give that credit to the writers of the holy book"

you make no sense here so i have to take it any way possible, the old testiment was told by a bunch of prophets of fortune tellers if you will, a bunch of dreamers, but it was also a story about their life and how GOD played a role in it, the new testiment was written by humans trying to explain a supernatural force, which was jesus, how this one man created so many miracles how he went into the temple and cursed at the jewish priest for their wrong doings.

this is were the jewish religion and catholic religion divide, jewish belive jesus was a prophet setting them back on the road to rightousness, and catholics believe he was the son of man sent down here to redeem our sins and our original sins.

and about your coment on santa, he does exist, but he exist as a spirit because he is dead, if you were a christian you would know this and since you dont i would come to take that you are not christian. santa is saint nick or nicolas 'something' now during his time he lived during great pain what many now would consider a 4th world country he brought peace and gifts to the orphans and the unfortunate much like mother teresa did, he was made a saint by the catholic faith because of his contributions to man and god, hence the begining of christmas, but they put two together, the celebration of one mans kindness and christ's birth, and the 25 of december was chosen for a few reasons cant remember which but it has alot of logic and symbolism in it, it was not chosen at rondom.

and because of this many put the three kings in with christ's birth because they confuse the idea of st. nick, in actuality the three kings did not come for some time later, and if you notice in true traditional catholic belief you will celebrate christmas till the day of the kings, which was when the three kings came unto baby jesus.

there goes your santa theory right out the _

you will not win against me i have been trained in the arts of religious war. i am a theology ninja



posted on Jan, 5 2004 @ 05:47 AM
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Originally posted by JBenoit
Where did god come from you all might be asking. Well lets see, back when man did not have the resources we have now or the knowledge we have now they were looking for something to explain why things happen. Thus god was made up in our minds to help explain these occurances and as we got smarter we started to prove that these other things caused these occurances and not god yet because or parents told us about god, god keeps getting passed down to each generation thus keeping the belief alive that whatever we cannot explain right now that it must be an act of god. As time goes on and we become more knowledgable more people wil lose faith until god is no longer believed in and these discussions will not be necessary.


It is human nature to go looking for the reason's why we exist. The Bible was written down not that long a ago if you compare it to the amount of time the human race has existed. Therefore man has contemplated his sprituality for a very long time and this is very evident. And this continues to this day. Some people can't see this as fact because they reason with intellect and then conclued that it is foolishnes that one should belive in a divine creater if they can not see or feel it in a physical sence. They will continually convince themselves with this lie to the point that they no longer have the energy or openmindness to consider that the reason that their argument exits and this line of justification of their thought out reasoning is their soul wanting to be relized, this will only happen when one come to the relization that their is more to the human condition than what science explain.

It is aways more important to think and listen with your heart, because this will connect you with your soul and then with your creator.

Ask any believer and they will tell you that true faith is stronger and knowledgeble than any science.

It is now ever more pertinant that man should have faith in God when he has such techonology as he does these days. Because with out faith why should we care if we blew the world up tommorow.



posted on Jan, 5 2004 @ 11:36 AM
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Why is it that when I say God doesn't exist, people automatically assume that I accept the "everything happened by accident and all things in the universe just accidentally, randomly, came into place" THEORY! I DO NOT! This is NOT what I know, it's also not what I say. Pleeeease don't assume that! Just because you may know of 2 theories, doesn't mean it has to be either one or the other. It could be neither! God didn't create the universe, and the universe also didn't accidentally come into being. Maybe I should leave it like this and see if (hypothetically) someone can come up with a way the universe can exist if it's not an accident, and it wasn't purposely created by some God.



posted on Jan, 5 2004 @ 11:41 AM
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Originally posted by WeBDeviL
Ah..now that New Year's is over..and I am back to fight again


Now, I was pondering this when I logged off yesterday night. Your arguement, lilblam, highly depends on the laws of the physical realm. But! Here's the catch. God is not OF the physical realm. The laws of physics and logic do not apply to him, as he is the ultimate, the alpha and omega. You argued that mathematical laws say that nothing cannot create something. Sure, that is true for the physical world and humans, as we are all created by another. Oh, where did the first humans come from, if nothing cannot create something? They evolved you might argue, sure, they did. But what about the beings they evolved from? And the beings that evolved from them..it keeps going back, until there is but a single organism..but what created the organism? If nothing cannot create something, where did it come from? Something put it there.

What I am getting at is that you are trying to disprove a non-physical being with physical laws, it cannot be done.

"Nothing cannot create something"

Again, God is ultimate infinity. We CANNOT comprehend that, and cannot explain it, either. Stop trying to disprove God with physical laws, when he is not physical!

"That is logically refutable to be FALSE and silly and a great"

AGAIN! You rely on the physical laws and rules! God IS NOT OF THE PHYSICAL REALM, GET OVER IT! Logic to you might not apply to him, understand?

Free will: God gave us Free will to do what we please. Sure, if we ask for help, he may interfer. This is what prayers do. If you don't ask for help, he won't help. God HAS a plan. Ask and you will receive.

"Jesus walked on water"
"Jesus brought life to a man who was dead"

^ That is the ultimate proof, how is there no God if this man did this? Surely no mere human can, can you?

Wow, lilblam, I sense some problems in your life, do I not? Many of these posts seem very very shallow, indeed. Your post about "Not feeling with your heart, buddy" Yeah, I did not mean that literally, you seem to be a very shallow and literal person, a person who "doesn't believe until they see" That is what I am getting here..

Like Shoktek said, you are assuming that God requires OUR mathematically correct laws, do you not?

Another reason that I believe you seem rather literal and shallow..

You explain "love" and "hate" with 'chemical reactions' that are triggered within the body. That is how you explain that away. Well, explain why we feel beauty in some certain things, and not others, all humans are different. If we were mere 'animals' like all the rest, we wouldn't all have individual needs and wants. All snakes are just that snakes. All dogs are just that - dogs. You feed a dog with dog food, it is going to eat it. They have primal senses, we are beyond that. We sense and know some things that cannot be explained..beauty, love, hatred, rage, fighting for what you believe in..on top of that..

-wD


[Edited on 1-1-2004 by WeBDeviL]


Great argument, but your premise is that something had to come out of something. If it's not God who put it there, then where did the FIRST race come from. Well... you ASSUME that there was a first. What if, everything that exists, has always existed, and always will exist, and there is no Alpha/Omega. It never started and will never end? It only cycles for eternity! So no one had to create anything, it always was. And math isn't physical, it's logical.

All that you see that exists, has always existed and always will exist, it's just your perception of "time" that's illusory. Your perception is that of time being real, which it's not. What do you think of that so far? I can give you evidence towards that also.



posted on Jan, 5 2004 @ 11:53 AM
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Infinity is a concept, a theory. It is not "achieved" or "reached and surpassed" simply because it doesn't exist as a number. It just means "no end". So, here's my logical argument for why time doesn't exist, and therefore there is no creator God. First let's look at what our perception of time at the moment is, and then I'll show you why it's not real. Bare with me, this should be enlightening! Please read this without bias/pre-conceptions/belief interfering, be objective


What we know of time: Past/Present/Future. Yet we know the future doesn't exist YET, not until it comes into the present. The past also doesn't exist, it is only a memory. If you wipe out the memory, the past ceases to exist entirely. So the only thing that TRULY exists SHOULD be the present! Well, things actually jump from the nonexistant future, into the nonexistant past, and NEVER touch the present. You can zoom in as much as you want into this "present" but even if you zoom in for infinity, you'll always see the future jumping into the past, there is no moment called "present" that exists. What we think is "the present" is only the IMMEDIATE past, the part that JUST NOW skipped from future into the past. Ok so that means nothing exists, well it doesn't if you think of linear time as we do.

Also, because you can't have something out of NOTHING, there was ALWAYS something. That means where we are now is supposedly in the middle of infinity of time, that goes infinitely into the past and into the future. There is no end to everything, as there was no beginning. There's only ONE problem with that. If that is true, then God can NEVER create anything even if he does exist. Why? Because he'd first have to wait for infinity of TIME before he could create something. Remember, we have infinity of time behind us in our past. But you CANNOT surpass infinity and THEN do something. Infinity is theoretical, it is NEVER reached. It just means NEVER ENDS. That means, since we are STILL part of that same infinity, God would STILL BE WAITING to create ANYTHING because we still haven't surpassed infinity, we're only in the middle somewhere. God would be waiting for exactly infinity of time, before creating ANYTHING. That means he'd never create anything. Bam! God strikes out! Ask me for any clarifications if need be.

This also means that time isn't real, because before anyone created anything they'd have to wait infinity of time to do so. You can't skip ahead, because time is linear. You can only go forward/backward. You can't SKIP sections. I'm talking about all-powerful beings also. If you CAN skip sections, that means tiem never existed in the first place and it's an illusion imposed on humans. Ok this is long enough. Let me know what you think.

edit: Even if you can skip sections of time, you still can't reach infinity. You can't skip infinity. It's not a numerical amount. You can wait only FINITE amount of time.

You may argue that because God isn't human, he is not bound by our limitations. What I would say is, if God can SKIP infinity, that means it was NEVER infinity, but was in fact, FINITE! But we know for FACT that everything DOES exist for infinity, and God in religion should be infinity, no? Because you cannot have something out of nothing, therefore something always was! Hmm I think I'm repeating myself here


[Edited on 5-1-2004 by lilblam]



posted on Jan, 5 2004 @ 06:52 PM
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Originally posted by lilblam
Why is it that when I say God doesn't exist, people automatically assume that I accept the "everything happened by accident and all things in the universe just accidentally, randomly, came into place" THEORY! I DO NOT! This is NOT what I know, it's also not what I say. Pleeeease don't assume that! Just because you may know of 2 theories, doesn't mean it has to be either one or the other. It could be neither! God didn't create the universe, and the universe also didn't accidentally come into being. Maybe I should leave it like this and see if (hypothetically) someone can come up with a way the universe can exist if it's not an accident, and it wasn't purposely created by some God.


becuase what you just said is not faith therefore it can only be one thing science, and since sience cannot explain the existence of the universe, and probably never will till we have a time machine, which by current understanding still is impossible, and the fact that the present universe, you and everything in it defy the laws of physics.

so there is two options faith or science and since science as of right now will never be able to explain how something came from nothing there leaves only one thing GOD or Gods depending on how you view it.

so to presume that since you do not believe in a god, then you must believe science, is pure logic and well correct because there is only two choices.

and to take it further if you do not believe in anything science nor god then how can you sit here and argue about it, unless your on a journey to find god or science to be right, and since according to science everything comes from chaos including order, the universe did happen by 'accident' throwing your other idea right out the _...

so now choose science or god, you can choose both, as i have....but you cannot choose neither because just like in one dimension there is only two sides.



posted on Jan, 5 2004 @ 07:06 PM
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Originally posted by lilblam
Infinity is a concept, a theory. It is not "achieved" or "reached and surpassed" simply because it doesn't exist as a number. It just means "no end". So, here's my logical argument for why time doesn't exist, and therefore there is no creator God. First let's look at what our perception of time at the moment is, and then I'll show you why it's not real. Bare with me, this should be enlightening! Please read this without bias/pre-conceptions/belief interfering, be objective


What we know of time: Past/Present/Future. Yet we know the future doesn't exist YET, not until it comes into the present. The past also doesn't exist, it is only a memory. If you wipe out the memory, the past ceases to exist entirely. So the only thing that TRULY exists SHOULD be the present! Well, things actually jump from the nonexistant future, into the nonexistant past, and NEVER touch the present. You can zoom in as much as you want into this "present" but even if you zoom in for infinity, you'll always see the future jumping into the past, there is no moment called "present" that exists. What we think is "the present" is only the IMMEDIATE past, the part that JUST NOW skipped from future into the past. Ok so that means nothing exists, well it doesn't if you think of linear time as we do.

Also, because you can't have something out of NOTHING, there was ALWAYS something. That means where we are now is supposedly in the middle of infinity of time, that goes infinitely into the past and into the future. There is no end to everything, as there was no beginning. There's only ONE problem with that. If that is true, then God can NEVER create anything even if he does exist. Why? Because he'd first have to wait for infinity of TIME before he could create something. Remember, we have infinity of time behind us in our past. But you CANNOT surpass infinity and THEN do something. Infinity is theoretical, it is NEVER reached. It just means NEVER ENDS. That means, since we are STILL part of that same infinity, God would STILL BE WAITING to create ANYTHING because we still haven't surpassed infinity, we're only in the middle somewhere. God would be waiting for exactly infinity of time, before creating ANYTHING. That means he'd never create anything. Bam! God strikes out! Ask me for any clarifications if need be.

This also means that time isn't real, because before anyone created anything they'd have to wait infinity of time to do so. You can't skip ahead, because time is linear. You can only go forward/backward. You can't SKIP sections. I'm talking about all-powerful beings also. If you CAN skip sections, that means tiem never existed in the first place and it's an illusion imposed on humans. Ok this is long enough. Let me know what you think.

edit: Even if you can skip sections of time, you still can't reach infinity. You can't skip infinity. It's not a numerical amount. You can wait only FINITE amount of time.

You may argue that because God isn't human, he is not bound by our limitations. What I would say is, if God can SKIP infinity, that means it was NEVER infinity, but was in fact, FINITE! But we know for FACT that everything DOES exist for infinity, and God in religion should be infinity, no? Because you cannot have something out of nothing, therefore something always was! Hmm I think I'm repeating myself here


[Edited on 5-1-2004 by lilblam]


wrong again, we can say since god is not human god is time, god is ifinity and since he is infinity he can wait, who know how long he waited before he created, he probably waited billions of universe cycles (the life of our universe) before even thinking.

and your wrong, about time, the idea of time was created to calculate the passing of events....time does not exist because man created time and since man created time god cannot be bound by it nor anything else above us.

and once again when you get into higher math you will know that infinity is a loop, look at a tangent graph the error lines symbolize the fact that it is starting all over again, meaning negative infinity becomes positive infinity and visa versa, not putting a number limit on inifity but infinity no longer means in one direction as we know it.....if you were to see a tangent graph on a 3d graph scaling system you would see it as one continous wave with no limits imposed on it except those of the graph so we can grasp its concept.

and on another note since time doesnt exist and your trying to relate time to another human emotion, memory/feeling, it is also irrelevant, to a being who exists for infinity just like say the universe if you will, one day is well infinity...

and if you have read the bible you would see the passage where GOD trys to give us the idea of infinity in the fact that 2days to him is 2 thousand years to us and 2thousand years to us is two days to him, showing that GOD is not only mathmatically perfect but shows that our concept of infinity is barely catching up to his......

and since you mentioned the idea of not having a present i will like to present the idea upon you that you see only the past, considering it takes time for your brain to take the electric waves from your eyes which took time for light to bounce off of and then took time to be translated....meaning you are always in the past and will never see the passing of past to future.....you cannot understand past/present/future until you understand the human limitations brought upon it.





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