Steven Greers latest conference

Most of this thread seems to be a debate about Greer's credibitlity of course. Here are my 2 cents for what they are worth ($.02)

I personally enjoy listening to his schtick and think what he says is entirely possible, but I still won't buy it until I see it myself. However, I don't pass judgement on other people's logic, whether they believe or don't.

He makes wild claims for sure without backing this stuff up in public. But I am a bit of a mystic, so some of his stuff resonates with me and if there is a link betweeen meditation and contacting UFO's, that seems pretty cool, as long as he doesn't have a group of people committ ritual suicide via heaven's gate

He does come off a bit creepy to me on the video's I've watched, I could see him on that Dateline child molester show a little bit like a cult leader, but then again George Bush comes off to me as an arrogent rich simplistic frat boy who couldn't organize a keg party, so I'm not sure which is better

I do think if you could line up as many seemingly credible people for any other topic besides UFO's, people would listen. Iraq for example. If you had 400 military people before the war saying they had concrete proof of the tie to Al Queda then I think the war would be justified. I can't even organize a 3 piece rock band, I can't imagine how much work it would take to line up witnesses regarding UFO's, many of whom were probably pretty reluctant. So at the very least, I think you have to applaud his energy and ambition which is remarkable.

However, I don't think having those witnesses proves anything else other than some one is hiding something. But I do take his opinion's seriously. Regarding Greer's detailed particulars and how he talks as if the stuff is fact, I find it off-putting, but of course it's fun to listen to and imagine if it's true and it does make sense to some degree. Should we spend billions of dollars on a pointless war or use that money to discover a new form of energy so don't have to give a crap about the middle east. Hmmmmmmmm, hard question...... Particulary since the energy crisis has been an issue for decades.

Hopefully he is the real deal and his zero point efforts or G-8 contact pan out, but until then, I personally think his theories are just theories and can't be taken as facts, but are definitely worth considering, since he has done a trenmendous amount to move the movement forward.

Regarding his profiteering? I don't buy it. There are many other ways to make money than to become a UFO cultist, and while some think he makes vast sums of money, I can tell you from working with many event planners, that something as small as organizing a corporate BBQ costs a lot of money, and my work has to get huge corporate sponsors for even small events. So don't underestimate the over head, and if he is making a large profit, he deserves it. If it's so easy, every one should become a profiteering UFO nut. At the very least, he must believe in what he is doing, otherwise what a huge waste of energy. If he's a matermind capitalist manipulating people's beliefs, then he is a genious.

In the end, I think we all have to agree to disagree and have our opinions and not be condescending and semantic in trying to win debates over this topic or try to convert others.

I think continuing a dialogue on the raminfications of Greer's theories or the credibility of his witnesses rather than his credibility with regards to his wild claims in his book and otherwise would be more fun. But I do realize this thread is about his most recent speaking engagement which was pretty new agey (but highly entertaining!)

kroms33

Originally posted by kroms33

Do you know the definition of theory? If it was fact then it would be in use today. Just in case you don't know what THEORY stands for here is the definition: a coherent group of general propositions used as principles of explanation for a class of phenomena.

The theory of evolution is in use today.

Music theory is in use today.

Originally posted by kroms33

It seems from your statements - statements of using other peoples hearsay instead of evidence that you don't know what it is you are talking about when it comes to ZPE/string theory/quantum physics... sorry - but I don't state what other people tell me as hearsay as factual evidence.

Do you have experience with zpe? String Theory? Quantam physics? Please open another thread or refer me to another thread where you have discussed your experiences.

Or did you read them in a book? May you attended a class? Is that not hearsay? What is hearsay? What is truth?

I'm reading The Field right now, it's a pretty good book about these things.

Originally posted by SKUNK2
Very well put Millerman.
The key to zero point energy is literally the use of magnetism.
It's amazing how some thing so simple has defied our scientists for so long-with 100% probability that it "will" change the world.

WRONG. The key to ZPE is curving the band of the gravitational field. Yes, I can make 2 magnet polar opposites float - but that is not changing the dynamic of any gravity field within the experiment zone.

Perhaps you are thinking of electromagnetic radiation? which really doesn't have a heck of a lot to do with magnetism in terms of magnets, but rather the energy fields of electromagnetic waves... anyhow.

A ZP device would change the dynamics of a gravity field to a degree of either propelling or accelerating an object to and from a required field. This would mean the ZP device would have its own gravitational attributes. When was the last time you had a magnet with its own gravitational attributes?

ZPE is the lowest quantized energy level of a quantum mechanical system... do some research on the Heisenberg uncertainty principle, and Planck's constant. These describe the paralleled uncertainty that exist between time and energy. Where there is uncertainty - there is THEORY, not FACT.

If your listening to Greer about ZPE - it would seem he has it... wrong. I sure hope the only factual basis for you and Millerman's arguments are not just the words of Mr. Greer and some of his followers... BECAUSE ZPE IS STILL THEORY. Scientists don't have ANY factual based evidence on HOW it works. You can used applied theory and get results - but ZPE experiments are just applied theory... it won't be factual until they figure out how it works.

Originally posted by c3hamby



The theory of evolution is in use today.

Music theory is in use today.

right, they are called applied theories

Do you have experience with zpe? String Theory? Quantam physics? Please open another thread or refer me to another thread where you have discussed your experiences.

Or did you read them in a book? May you attended a class? Is that not hearsay? What is hearsay? What is truth?

I'm reading The Field right now, it's a pretty good book about these things.

I have read books about ZPE - quantum physics and string theory. String Theory for beginners, Elegant Universe (mostly about ST and quantum physics), The Quantum World: Quantum Physics for Everyone - and a few more that I don't want to dig through my library to look for... also - there is a plethora of information on technical theory and applied theory within this subject matter on the web. No, this doesn't make me super knowledgeable about this stuff... but when people start quoting theory out of context I get a bit miffed.

I know this thread is about Greer - and I am sorry it got a bit derailed about ZPE and physics... but I guess, Greer speaks of ZPE at his conferences, so it is not toooo far off topic

Kroms33
Have you ever seen "race to zero point"?
On the video it shows a device that some one has built.
The device is bassicly a box with magnets attached to it in a circle formation. In between the magnet formation is a wheel with magnets on it.
We all know magnets attract and repel each other. Well anyway the magnets in the box repel and attract the wheel which makes it spin, which in return makes free electricity(ZPE). The device is also controlled by a microchip that puts electricity through the magnets at certain intervals as the wheel spins around. Much like a ECU in a car times the fuel/air ratios in the engine to increase performance and economy.
The device only needs a small charge of electricity to get it kicked started(1AA battery or a bit of manual spinning) the device provides it's own power through it's generater and powers it's own motor.
I'm sorry if this sounds a bit daft i find it hard to explain because i'm not a boffin.
Check this website out and watch the 5min movie, in the move for a few seconds it shows a cartoon(very simple) of what i have explained
Link: www.steorn.com...
It's the second video what i want you to watch
There is also a new video that has been posted today, so i'm gonna watch that

Originally posted by kroms33

Originally posted by SKUNK2
Very well put Millerman.
The key to zero point energy is literally the use of magnetism.
It's amazing how some thing so simple has defied our scientists for so long-with 100% probability that it "will" change the world.

WRONG. The key to ZPE is curving the band of the gravitational field. Yes, I can make 2 magnet polar opposites float - but that is not changing the dynamic of any gravity field within the experiment zone.

I don't claim to understand the physics beyond a basic level, but it seems clear to me that a permanent magnet somehow creates a conduit to the ZPE field and enables a continuous flow of energy into our space/time. What else could possibly be the source of a magnet's energy other than the ZPE field?

If your listening to Greer about ZPE - it would seem he has it... wrong.

Greer doesn't claim to understand the physics either, since he's a medical doctor, not a physicist. He only knows that these free energy devices do exist - because there's lots of evidence for them.

I sure hope the only factual basis for you and Millerman's arguments are not just the words of Mr. Greer and some of his followers...

Please stop assuming that just because I support Greer, that all I do is parrot his views without doing any other research. Many of these things are backed up by multiple corroborating witnesses and evidence. ZPE tech most certainly is.

BECAUSE ZPE IS STILL THEORY.

So I guess all those working devices that, for example, Nikola Tesla had, were just "theories".....

Scientists don't have ANY factual based evidence on HOW it works.

Tell that to Nikola Tesla, and the dozens of other inventors who have had working devices....

Originally posted by millerman

Originally posted by kroms33

Originally posted by SKUNK2
Very well put Millerman.
The key to zero point energy is literally the use of magnetism.
It's amazing how some thing so simple has defied our scientists for so long-with 100% probability that it "will" change the world.

WRONG. The key to ZPE is curving the band of the gravitational field. Yes, I can make 2 magnet polar opposites float - but that is not changing the dynamic of any gravity field within the experiment zone.

I don't claim to understand the physics beyond a basic level, but it seems clear to me that a permanent magnet somehow creates a conduit to the ZPE field and enables a continuous flow of energy into our space/time. What else could possibly be the source of a magnet's energy other than the ZPE field?

Nope, because you are not changing the dynamics of the gravitational field in which the magnetic "object" is contained in. Just because you have two polar opposite magnets and make them float doesn't give you any type of anti-gravitational field. Polar opposite magnetics is basic science - and fact. Although - on an atomic level - scientists still don't understand how magnetism works.

Greer doesn't claim to understand the physics either, since he's a medical doctor, not a physicist. He only knows that these free energy devices do exist - because there's lots of evidence for them.

No one said free energy devices don't exist - its whether they are theoretically applied or not is what I am talking about.

Many of these things are backed up by multiple corroborating witnesses and evidence. ZPE tech most certainly is.

Reference my above answer...

So I guess all those working devices that, for example, Nikola Tesla had, were just "theories".....

Yes, they were and ARE.
Have you ever taken an ounce of science in school in your life? Just wondering, because to PROVE something as fact needs data, data, data, research and more data... this is basic science.
The theory of relativity - we know e=mc2 is a truthful representation of the formula for the speed of light, but the reason that it is still a theory: we have never gone that fast to test it out! Name any working ZPE formula that proves any ZPE works - there are no formulas - so on the scientific track, the THEORY of ZPE hasn't even gone that far. Can you see where I am coming from? ZPE EXISTS - THERE ARE WORKING MODELS of ZPE BUT IT IS AN APPLIED THEORY. How hard is that to understand?

Tell that to Nikola Tesla, and the dozens of other inventors who have had working devices....

SO, you are telling me Tesla and the dozens of inventors have scientific formulas and data that will explain how ZPE works in an applied scientific factual manor or are you just saying that just because something exists it can't be a theory? SOMETHING CAN EXIST AND BE A THEORY because it doesn't have the scientific data, formulas or research to determine exactly how it works.
It would be hard to determine how ZPE works when we can't even figure out how gravity (also a theory) works. There are two schools of gravitational theory Newtonian and Einsteinian.... pick one and go from there. We KNOW gravity exists - because we are attached to the earth and orbit around the sun, but we don't know exactly HOW it works... thus it's a THEORY... UNDERSTAND?

(edit some typo's - not all, I am sure there are some more in there that I missed... oh well)

[edit on 4/17/2007 by kroms33]

Originally posted by kroms33

Originally posted by millerman

I don't claim to understand the physics beyond a basic level, but it seems clear to me that a permanent magnet somehow creates a conduit to the ZPE field and enables a continuous flow of energy into our space/time. What else could possibly be the source of a magnet's energy other than the ZPE field?

Nope, because you are not changing the dynamics of the gravitational field in which the magnetic "object" is contained in. Just because you have two polar opposite magnets and make them float doesn't give you any type of anti-gravitational field. Polar opposite magnetics is basic science - and fact. Although - on an atomic level - scientists still don't understand how magnetism works.

Exactly!

Permanent magnets clearly are tapping into some unseen energy source (likely the ZPE field or "quantum vacuum flux") and creating "free" energy.

And I didn't say anything about gravitational fields, I don't know why you keep going on about that....

Greer doesn't claim to understand the physics either, since he's a medical doctor, not a physicist. He only knows that these free energy devices do exist - because there's lots of evidence for them.

No one said free energy devices don't exist - its whether they are theoretically applied or not is what I am talking about.

Well, holy crap kroms, if you're saying that free energy devices do exist, then you must be agreeing with me, because that's what I said too!!!

I don't really care about the theories behind them - I only care that they exist, they work, and the world needs them! Yesterday!

So I guess all those working devices that, for example, Nikola Tesla had, were just "theories".....

Yes, they were and ARE.

LMAO!

A WORKING, proof-of-principle DEVICE, is a THEORY?

Have you ever taken an ounce of science in school in your life? Just wondering, because to PROVE something as fact needs data, data, data, research and more data... this is basic science.

Well, if you understood basic science, you would understand that there isn't really such a thing as "scientific fact". There are only hypotheses and models and theories to attempt to explain observable phenomena.

The models and theories that seem to fit really well and are hard to disprove, start to get treated as "facts" or "laws" and get defended with almost religious zeal, but the truth is, any scientific model or theory can become outdated as soon as a newer, better model comes along... for example Newton's "Laws" worked out great for hundreds of years, until Einstein came along, and so on and so on.....

Name any working ZPE formula that proves any ZPE works - there are no formulas - so on the scientific track, the THEORY of ZPE hasn't even gone that far. Can you see where I am coming from? ZPE EXISTS - THERE ARE WORKING MODELS of ZPE BUT IT IS AN APPLIED THEORY. How hard is that to understand?

Who cares, as long as the devices work consistently and produce kilowatts or megawatts of free energy for the world?

Tell that to Nikola Tesla, and the dozens of other inventors who have had working devices....

SO, you are telling me Tesla and the dozens of inventors have scientific formulas and data that will explain how ZPE works in an applied scientific factual manor or are you just saying that just because something exists it can't be a theory?

Maybe they do, maybe they don't, I don't know. Allegedly Tesla's lab was raided and all his documentation and devices were taken, so we don't know what level his theories were at.

I'm certain that, if no one else, NWO/MIC must have it down to an "exact science" by now, since they've had 60 years and TRILLIONS of dollars to put into the reverse-engineering and R&D effort, and according to TDP witnesses they already have their own anti-gravity crafts and things like that.

SOMETHING CAN EXIST AND BE A THEORY because it doesn't have the scientific data, formulas or research to determine exactly how it works.
It would be hard to determine how ZPE works when we can't even figure out how gravity (also a theory) works. There are two schools of gravitational theory Newtonian and Einsteinian.... pick one and go from there. We KNOW gravity exists - because we are attached to the earth and orbit around the sun, but we don't know exactly HOW it works... thus it's a THEORY... UNDERSTAND?

Sure, most science is like that. We still don't know "exactly" how magnets work, how gravity works, how light works (whether it's waves or particles or both somehow), how all these subatomic particles and things work.... heck we can't even measure the exact location and velocity of a particle, instead we have the "Uncertainty" principle....

Again, scientific theories are only useful if they help us do useful things! I don't really care about this kind of theoretical discussion, if there are already WORKING DEVICES, that work consistently and cleanly..... the scientists can take as long as they like to tweak the theories - AFTER we start mass producing the devices!


[edit on 17-4-2007 by millerman]

Originally posted by millerman

Permanent magnets clearly are tapping into some unseen energy source (likely the ZPE field or "quantum vacuum flux") and creating "free" energy.

And I didn't say anything about gravitational fields, I don't know why you keep going on about that....

um, ok - so now you are saying that permanent magnets are tapping into some unseen energy source and creating free energy... really. I know you said you have a basic understanding of this - so, I don't want to insult you at all... but I don't think you know what you are talking about.

I have a bunch of magnets on my refrigerator, but my monthly electricity bill isn't reflecting their free energy work output dude. LOL.

State some tangible evidence to your case about permanent magnetic fields that create quantum vacuum fluxes... I would be really interested in that.

I would rather think (for debate purposes), that you are talking about ELECTROMAGNETISM - which is a source of RADIATION (electromagnetic quantum vacuum) and really, REALLY does not have ANYTHING to do with permanent magnets.

LMAO!

A WORKING, proof-of-principle DEVICE, is a THEORY?

laugh all you want. I guess you didn't understand what I was trying to explain to you. (sigh). YES IT IS THEORY BECAUSE NO ONE UNDERSTANDS THE CONCEPTS OF SCIENCE BEHIND WHAT MAKES IT TICK! IT IS CALLED "APPLIED THEORY" FOR THE 10TH TIME.

Well, if you understood basic science, you would understand that there isn't really such a thing as "scientific fact". There are only hypotheses and models and theories to attempt to explain observable phenomena.

Really? Nice try. Scientific Fact is what has not been refuted on a logical assertion. The sun Sol rises in the East and sets in the West on a typical 24 hour earth day - scientific FACT. Humans are mammalian animals, Scientific FACT. The Universe has stars, SCIENTIFIC FACT.

Name any working ZPE formula that proves any ZPE works - there are no formulas - so on the scientific track, the THEORY of ZPE hasn't even gone that far. Can you see where I am coming from? ZPE EXISTS - THERE ARE WORKING MODELS of ZPE BUT IT IS AN APPLIED THEORY. How hard is that to understand?

Who cares, as long as the devices work consistently and produce kilowatts or megawatts of free energy for the world?

I care, because you are using terminology out of context and are forging forward with a belief that standard refrigerator magnets have 'free energy' quantum vacuum fluxes.

Maybe they do, maybe they don't, I don't know. Allegedly Tesla's lab was raided and all his documentation and devices were taken, so we don't know what level his theories were at.

no allegedly about it - Tesla died poor (damn Edison), and the government raided Tesla's house/apartment and confiscated all of his writings. Most of it is still classified to this day.

I'm certain that, if no one else, NWO/MIC must have it down to an "exact science" by now, since they've had 60 years and TRILLIONS of dollars to put into the reverse-engineering and R&D effort, and according to TDP witnesses they already have their own anti-gravity crafts and things like that.

Perhaps - but maybe not since the aliens technology might be something like 'magic' to us. We won't know until most likely well after D-Day (disclosure day)... whenever that is. They might have their own crafts - perhaps because they have a basic minimal understanding of how the stuff operates - which brings me to the subject of not knowing if a ZPE device is truly environmentally friendly...

Kroms33
You actually have no idea what you are on about!
For a start who said magnets produce free energy???

Magnets produce a force that can be utilised to produce energy. The force of a magnet requires absoluetly no energy to be produced. If you can't understand this simple principle there isn't even a point in you posting about ZPE.

Can you explain to me what ZPE even means correctly???

kroms

My original point was simply that free energy devices have been around for at least 100 years, and you didn't even disagree with me that these devices exist!

So what is the point of this whole argument??

It seems like your whole point is "I have read some science books, so Greer and his supporters have it all wrong, and I'm going to start up yet another point-for-point battle with millerman so I can 'beat' him and make myself look smart......"

um, ok - so now you are saying that permanent magnets are tapping into some unseen energy source and creating free energy... really. I know you said you have a basic understanding of this - so, I don't want to insult you at all... but I don't think you know what you are talking about.
I have a bunch of magnets on my refrigerator, but my monthly electricity bill isn't reflecting their free energy work output dude. LOL.

kroms,

WHAT is the source of energy, that allows a permanent magnet to hang there in the air attached to a fridge, or some other magnetic surface, and CONTINUOUSLY defy gravity, for days, weeks, months, years on end?

A permanent magnet isn't burning anything, it doesn't generate heat, it isn't fusing or splitting atoms or anything like that.... so WHERE is all that energy coming from? The energy that creates that magnetic field and allows it to defy gravity indefinitely?

Please, either make use of your vast scientific knowledge and answer the question, or just say that you don't know.... (and it's obvious that you DON'T know....)

But don't start getting all pretentious and making fun of the question, because it's a perfectly intelligent question, and you are only making yourself look smug, arrogant and foolish by refusing to answer it.....

Well, if you understood basic science, you would understand that there isn't really such a thing as "scientific fact". There are only hypotheses and models and theories to attempt to explain observable phenomena.

Really? Nice try. Scientific Fact is what has not been refuted on a logical assertion. The sun Sol rises in the East and sets in the West on a typical 24 hour earth day - scientific FACT. Humans are mammalian animals, Scientific FACT. The Universe has stars, SCIENTIFIC FACT.

Those are all observable phenomena.

Originally posted by SKUNK2
Kroms33
You actually have no idea what you are on about!
For a start who said magnets produce free energy???

millerman said this - if you would care to scroll up and read the thread (unless he edited his comments).

Magnets produce a force that can be utilised to produce energy. The force of a magnet requires absoluetly no energy to be produced. If you can't understand this simple principle there isn't even a point in you posting about ZPE.

Can you explain to me what ZPE even means correctly???

Please read the thread above - obviously you didn't read millermans posts which I was replying to, and JOKING about. I know what I am talking about - the problem is: some others don't. So please, spare me the little science lesson if you didn't bother to READ the quoted text, and millermans original posts.

[edit on 4/18/2007 by kroms33]

Originally posted by millerman
kroms

My original point was simply that free energy devices have been around for at least 100 years, and you didn't even disagree with me that these devices
exist!

So what is the point of this whole argument??

It seems like your whole point is "I have read some science books, so Greer and his supporters have it all wrong, and I'm going to start up yet another point-for-point battle with millerman so I can 'beat' him and make myself look smart......"

No, not at all dude - seriously, it isn't about that. I guess what irked me is when I see scientific theory being represented as fact... sorry, it is a pet peeve of mine. It is not me against you - this is a message board - there wouldn't be any messages if people didn't debate with others would there?

kroms,

WHAT is the source of energy, that allows a permanent magnet to hang there in the air attached to a fridge, or some other magnetic surface, and CONTINUOUSLY defy gravity, for days, weeks, months, years on end?

Magnetic Domain. Magnets stick to objects that contain magnetic material such as iron, but will not stick to plastics, cotton, wood, flesh etc.
WHY? Because the magnetic field is so strong it causes large clusters of the irons atoms to line up with each other. The clusters of aligned atoms are called Magnetic Domains. Each domain which is perfectly magnetized is made up of millions of aligned atoms.
External source:
In most materials almost all the electrons form pairs, with the magnetism from the two paired electrons exactly canceling. The result ultimately is due to something called the Pauli exclusion principle, which says that no more than one electron can exist in any particular quantum state. So if there’s some nice low-energy state waveform for an electron to sit in in some molecule, it tends to get two electrons for the two possible quantum states with that form: one spin up, the other spin down.

A permanent magnet isn't burning anything, it doesn't generate heat, it isn't fusing or splitting atoms or anything like that.... so WHERE is all that energy coming from? The energy that creates that magnetic field and allows it to defy gravity indefinitely?

WHAT ENERGY? Energy can be neither created nor destroyed it is a universal constant, and a very basic, law of physics. Magnets are not creating any type of energy dude, they already have their magnetic field, which is very low energized electrons - things that have electrons? everything around us. Protons, neutrons, electrons... you want to talk about the fundamentals of the properties of electrons having energy? sure, you can go that deep - power of the atom and all, mushroom clouds... poof. But then, we wouldn't be dealing with CLEAN energy now would we?

Please, either make use of your vast scientific knowledge and answer the question, or just say that you don't know.... (and it's obvious that you DON'T know....)

But don't start getting all pretentious and making fun of the question, because it's a perfectly intelligent question, and you are only making yourself look smug, arrogant and foolish by refusing to answer it.....

I did answer it, but I don't think you understood it. I don't want to be pretentious about this subject matter - but unfortunately, I can't put it in to terms that you might understand, I have tried. I can't say that "I don't know" as you instruct me to - sorry, its just that I am having trouble conveying the information to you so that you can comprehend it...
ANYHOW....
Man, for a guy who sure likes to say "LMAO" all over the place - you can't take a joke can you? Come ON - YOU DIDN'T laugh at my magnet refrigerator joke???

Well, if you understood basic science, you would understand that there isn't really such a thing as "scientific fact". There are only hypotheses and models and theories to attempt to explain observable phenomena.

Really? Nice try. Scientific Fact is what has not been refuted on a logical assertion. The sun Sol rises in the East and sets in the West on a typical 24 hour earth day - scientific FACT. Humans are mammalian animals, Scientific FACT. The Universe has stars, SCIENTIFIC FACT.

Those are all observable phenomena.

OH COME ON!!! you know that is a crock
Every winter I say to my wife:
"Geee hon, look at the observable phenomena of geese flying south for the winter."
Because, scientifically - it has never been proven the observable phenomena of geese have right? (SARCASM). GImmmmeeee a break.

(edit some the quotes that got messed up.)

[edit on 4/18/2007 by kroms33]

Originally posted by SKUNK2
Kroms33
You actually have no idea what you are on about!
For a start who said magnets produce free energy???

SKUNK2, kroms33 didn't state that magnets produce free energy, millerman did.

millerman
it seems clear to me that a permanent magnet somehow creates a conduit to the ZPE field and enables a continuous flow of energy into our space/time. What else could possibly be the source of a magnet's energy other than the ZPE field?

millerman
Permanent magnets clearly are tapping into some unseen energy source (likely the ZPE field or "quantum vacuum flux") and creating "free" energy.

It might be wise to see who you are quoting first, SKUNK2.

[edit on 18-4-2007 by tezzajw]

Ahh sorry Kroms33.
My bad
Well anyway at least i know what i'm talking about....mostly
To make this short, magnets can be "used" to make "free" energy.

In order for the magnet to stick to the fridge, there's gotta be energy spent to fight gravity.

I'm convinced there is a relation behind the not so well known ZPE and the force in a magnet. Tom Bearden could tell you a whole lot more on all this, why don't you guys ask him. www.cheniere.org.

I think the point some people are trying to make here is that if you go "why is that?" to some of the most basic physical "laws" you finally end up with "just because".

We can say we "know about" gravity or that we can "explain it" but we have no clue what it really is and that's why we've started talking about string theory.

"Scientific facts", "theories".. it easily boils down to simple semantics and points of view. We're just built that way, we need to know constants because we can speak about "eternity" or "endless" but our minds cannot grasp it (doesn't need to, too short life span). We have a need to quantify and by empirical deduction build a rational view of the world so we know which way is up and down.

Personally I don't care which way anyone puts it, the only thing we can know for sure is that nothing is for sure (at this point of our evo). But we can be pretty certain..and I could be wrong..

I think we are bound to make new discoveries in this very near future about ZPE and gravity and magnetic fields and the higher level of the electro-magnetic spectrum.

Originally posted by kroms33

Originally posted by millerman

A permanent magnet isn't burning anything, it doesn't generate heat, it isn't fusing or splitting atoms or anything like that.... so WHERE is all that energy coming from? The energy that creates that magnetic field and allows it to defy gravity indefinitely?

WHAT ENERGY? Energy can be neither created nor destroyed it is a universal constant, and a very basic, law of physics. Magnets are not creating any type of energy dude, they already have their magnetic field, which is very low energized electrons

Right, magnetic fields have to do with electrons, but you still haven't really answered my question.

Say I take an object and I put it in close proximity to the magnet, and the magnet pushes it away again. And say I do that 20 times.

For the magnet to push my object away, it needs to exert some level of Force on my object, right, like F=ma? So it needs to expend some number of Joules of work. And if I bring in my object 20 times, it needs to expend 20 times that number of joules in order to push it away every time. And if I bring in my object 50 times, or 100 times.... same thing.

So, HOW are the electrons in the magnet, generating that power? Whether I bring an object into proximity 3 times, or 20 times, or 50 times, or 100 times....? Where is the energy REQUIRED to do that work coming from? HOW are the electrons producing seemingly continuous energy, when we all know energy can't be created (or destroyed)?

Those are all observable phenomena.

OH COME ON!!! you know that is a crock

Every winter I say to my wife:
"Geee hon, look at the observable phenomena of geese flying south for the winter."
Because, scientifically - it has never been proven the observable phenomena of geese have right? (SARCASM). GImmmmeeee a break.

Look. The Sun rises in the East and sets in the West, has every single day in history, and will probably continue to do so - UNTIL the day the Sun goes supernova, or something happens to the Earth to knock it out of its usual orbit....

So, "The Sun rises in the East and sets in the West" isn't really a Scientific Fact, it's still more like a Prediction. A Prediction based on repeated observation and scientific modelling.

And most science is like that. Things become scientific "FACT" or "LAW" because they are observed repeatedly. But you never know when something new will happen or somebody will perform some new experiment that changes everything......

Originally posted by millerman


Right, magnetic fields have to do with electrons, but you still haven't really answered my question.

Permanent magnets produce fields through the orientation of the electron orbits and spins of the atoms in the magnet. These fields/electrons interact with objects such as metal (iron) depending on the strength of the field.
Each permanent magnet is made from metal which has tiny regions called 'domains' - which point randomly, but can be partially aligned. If you take a magnet and break it in have you would now have two magnets - both with N and S poles - keep going until the nearly the atomic level... magnetic domains. It all has to do with the electrons I agree - but I think that the ZPE that you are thinking about is going to come from some kind of electromagnetic field radiation... thus far - nearly all research points that way.

Say I take an object and I put it in close proximity to the magnet, and the magnet pushes it away again. And say I do that 20 times.

Like I said, domains... it also depends on how great the magnetic field is. Magnets do eventually wear down. Have you ever had a magnet on your fridge that just didn't want to stick? So, they don't have the potential to keep up their fields forever.

So, HOW are the electrons in the magnet, generating that power? Whether I bring an object into proximity 3 times, or 20 times, or 50 times, or 100 times....? Where is the energy REQUIRED to do that work coming from? HOW are the electrons producing seemingly continuous energy, when we all know energy can't be created (or destroyed)?

Give me a bit, I am looking up the information... but I think it has to do with the number of electrons and domains which = force but not 'power' as in a power source unless you are drawing it from the nuclear level (atomic energy).