Do only the Ignorant and Gullible believe Holocaust Denial Propaganda?

11bravo - I think I may have hit a nerve sorry.

Didn't know who the Ernst Zundel was until you posted him - checked him out on Wikipedia - I was actually given a copy of 'Did Six Million Really Die?' by Lady Birdwell LOL. Remedial is the best word to describe it.

If he was accused of committing a crime and went through the judical system and was found guilty, i don't really have an opinion, not my concern, didn't happen in my country, nothing I can do about it. Don't care, take it up with your government if you feel so strongly about it.

Do you believe the revisionist propaganda? Do you consider yourself to be ignorant or gullible? I think you answered my question by getting your knickers all in a twist.

Crakeur (Golddragnet) - I did actually use the internal link in the article and go to the original source so no harm done.

I wasn't mentioning it to keep you from seeing the site, I was trying to point out that when you post a link as a reference for something it would be wise to not use a slanted site devoted to hate as your source.

it would be like using al jazeera as a source for trying to prove that Israel is doing something wrong or using worldnetdaily as a source for some major scientific breakthrough regarding alien technology.

Well to be fair to History, all that has to be done to "PROVE" 6 million Jews were killed by Germany during WW2 is provide the names of each and everyone. Can't be done you say ? then its not Historical Fact but just hearsay or propaganda no matter what the Israeli's say or do to protect their version.

Kokoro

The Nazis did initially attempt enforced deportation. Firstly Jews were encouraged to leave the country and many of those who could afford to did so. Following the invasion of Poland, the Ghettos were established in most major towns and cities, and the Jews of western Europe were systematically deported to these Ghettos. These Ghettos were policed by Jews in the pay of the Nazis - the Kapos, who were then subsequently used for the same purpose in the concentration camps.

The inhabitants of the Ghettos were used for slave labour in local industry. Purpose built work camps with industrial attachments then allowed the clearance of the Ghettos. It was not until 1942 at the Wannsee Conference consisting of senior Nazis that the 'Final Solution' was put into practice.

At this point the Nazis thought total power of the European continent was within their control - Operation Barbarossa was going well and they felt that is was timely to completely eradicate the 'jewish problem' without fear of reprisal. When Barbarossa started going pear-shaped and the consequences of fighting a battle of two fronts took its toll, they went all out to conceal what they had been doing and attempted to kill every remaining jew. In fact vital resources were wasted on the exterminations that could have been used to fight the war. It was at this point that the Nazis started jumping ship wholesale and faith in Hitler began to wane.

For many senior Nazis, especially SS, it was more than understood what was going to happen if there were any witnesses left to testify.

mazzroth

I do appreciate your point, but I think it is unfair to discount the data that is available as hearsay. Its been said on all the other threads - the Nazis were amazing administrators and they kept very detailed records. Photographic evidence is pretty unequivocal too.

you do know alot of those photos were taken after the allies bombed rail ways, making it impossible to fed the inmates.

one thing that bothers me about the documents, is no where do the nazis claim methods of destruction of a person(ie gas chamber, electrical floors), but then people say "o this is were they used code words" BS i dont buy it, anyone can be anything you want them to be if you claim they used code words and only you know how to decipher them. it manipulation.

I fail to see how photographic evidence could serve as evidence of the 6 million number.

you could start counting individuals

obviously I'm kidding. I think he was merely referring to the denial of the atrocities.

I have yet to see anyone deny the atrocities.

Interesting to read Patton's view on the Jews who flooded into Germany after WW2 ended...www.rense.com...

I don't agree with his comments because ive never even met a jew but its interesting that he held them in such a low light.

I agree, I think it would take a concerted effort to inflate numbers, and keep them inflated in the face of contradictory facts.

Well put and very accurate.
It is no secret the AIPAC has unprecedented influance on U.S. policy.
It is no secret that there are many evangelical 'christian' preachers convincing their congregations that defense of Israel is paramount, using such lines as 'we must never let another jewish holocaust happen'.
Anyway, Im through with this thread. Obviously you are free to think what you want.....unless your Ernst Zundel with two dots over the U.

well take it the other way around..
is it only the ignorant and gullible who believe with out question the fact given to us by the people who want us to believe there things?
what if the facts of the holocaust aren't complitely the way they want us to believe they are.
if you may not question something then there is a coverup , what if there were less jews killed by the camps ? but it may also be that after real and new investigation that there were more jews killed but if you may not question the holocaust we may not find out because we would be in jail in some countries for even thinking of changing the facts in to what they really supose to be.

Combine that with the fact its a crime to even question the Holocaust in some countrys makes me extremely suspect of the official figures. Maybe its just me but i dont see the problem in investigating the Holocaust cause after all i should just arrive at the same figure of 6 million?, unless the Jews have something to hide.

The serbs didnt' kill anywhere near the same numbers. There have been instances of attempted genocide before the Holocaust, and there had been mass murders with body counts in the millions outside of the holocaust, but what makes the holocaust unique is the combination of those factors.


Muslims haven't been herded into camps, anywhere, not even in Iraq. No one has sought to exterminate them. And no reputable politician, or state government, has blamed muslims for the ills of the world and singled them out for destruction. The Nazis, on the other hand, blamed the loss of WWII, and the economic collapse of germany, on the jews, and practically the jews alone, and felt that the problem could be solved by getting rid of the jews.



Nazis and anti-semites, basically. Not everyone that has been duped by holocaust denial propaganda is a nazi or an anti-semite, obviously, but the 'leaders' of the movement mostly are.


Its really semantics anyway. The American indians weren't herded into camps and systematically executed. Period. It never happened. They were brutalized, oppressed, and there were numerous events where people purposely tried to kill off entire tribes, and often the government was complicit. Still, thats not the same as taking every amerindian in the continent, putting them into a slave labour camp, and executing them by the bundle.
But, again, its a semantic arguement.


Ah, so now I am not a red blooded american, but infact a simpering jew obsessing over the holocaust. How convenient, offering up that I might be associated with the jews as a form of criticism.

As does your dodging of the facts and ignoring the evidence.


And if you notice the person doing the revision states that its based on the lists kept by the germans of who died, and he specifically states that there could be many more deaths that haven't been recorded by the germans.
He also states that they were using gas chambers at that camp to exterminate people. Do you agree then that the holocaust was an intentional attempt to exterminate the jewish people and that they used homocidal gas chambers?


How are 'the jews' taking advantage of it? They're not the ones that created the anti-nazi laws in germany or the rest of europe. They were already on track to get Israel as their own state before the holocaust, so how did they 'take advantage of it'?
If we don't hear abouy gypsys dying in the holocaust as much as we hear about jews dying in it, then thats the fault of the gypsys for not taking up serious efforts to not let it be forgetten or denied.


No society tolerates every view. Holocaust denial is illegal because it is considered a form of Nazism, and clearly Germany, of all places, can make Nazism illegal.


Why don't you accept the numbers of around 6 million?


It wasn't 1 million, it was around 6 million.

So bascially you are accusing 'the evil jews' of lying about the holocaust and taking advtange of their own people in order to get more 'public sympathy' than they would have gotten if only 1 million of them were killed?
Thats complete nonsense.

[edit on 1-3-2007 by Nygdan]

There are 4 million names recorded. And we clearly aren't going to have the names of everyone that died in the Holocaust. The historical studies show that it was around 6 million. The historical studies were not done 'by israel'.

And that made gassing chambers a good idea, how?


The SS officers that were running the camps talk about herding people into gas chambers and gassing them. The forensic evidence corroborates those testimonies, and the similarities of testimonies from nazis to other prisoners also corroborates them. The documentary evidence also corroborates them. We have photos, requisition orders, blueprints, the chemical remains of homocidal gas chambers, reports from surivors, the personal testimonies of nazis from before the war was over, and finally out and out confessions from the nazis afterwards.



It should be fairly obvious that no one claimed that the photos of gas chambers, death camps, and mass burials and mass burnings provided a death count. The photos show what the nazis were doing, setting about exterminating an entire people, they don't give us the numbers.


Denying that millions were killed is denying the atrocity.

Facts that have never been presented.

And therefore the jews are lying about the holocaust, they faked the documents, beat confessions out of the nazis, made up the death lists?
Sorry, it does not follow.


Why is it interesting that someone from the generation that tried to exterminate the jews from europe would have a low opinion of jews? It wasn't just the nazis that were anti-semites.

Please do you live in a cave without TV ?, i cannot watch a TV show without a mention of the "H" word. If its not Will and Grace trying to find "nice jewish boys" its The OC with there relentless schedules of bar mitzvahs. Its just a simple fact of life the Holocaust is heavily used for public sympathy.

I watched a 4 hour Documentary on Sobibor and treblinka on youtube the other day and I am more than convinced that the official Holocaust story is full of lies and deception.

Ok some Jews were killed I don't disagree but the sheer volume claimed is hard to believe. 6000 Jews Killed a day is a figure quoted by historians to equal the 6 million by the wars end. It is generally recognised that there were 6 Extermination camps ( not to be confused with encarceration camps ). That means they would on average have to kill 1000 each every day.

Come on, after a week there would be no place left to put the corpses let alone a month.

The people that deny the Holocaust sicken me. I don't care how many non-Jews were killed as well, the point is that it DID HAPPEN and it was horrible for all parties.

Everyone suffered in that way, but it is a INDISPUTABLE FACT that millions of Jews, Gypsies, Disabled, Homosexuals and other undesirables were murdered under Hitler's Gestapo and SS/SA.