11bravo - I think I may have hit a nerve sorry.

Didn't know who the Ernst Zundel was until you posted him - checked him out on Wikipedia - I was actually given a copy of 'Did Six Million Really Die?' by Lady Birdwell LOL. Remedial is the best word to describe it.

If he was accused of committing a crime and went through the judical system and was found guilty, i don't really have an opinion, not my concern, didn't happen in my country, nothing I can do about it. Don't care, take it up with your government if you feel so strongly about it.

Do you believe the revisionist propaganda? Do you consider yourself to be ignorant or gullible? I think you answered my question by getting your knickers all in a twist.

Crakeur (Golddragnet) - I did actually use the internal link in the article and go to the original source so no harm done.

I wasn't mentioning it to keep you from seeing the site, I was trying to point out that when you post a link as a reference for something it would be wise to not use a slanted site devoted to hate as your source.

it would be like using al jazeera as a source for trying to prove that Israel is doing something wrong or using worldnetdaily as a source for some major scientific breakthrough regarding alien technology.

Well to be fair to History, all that has to be done to "PROVE" 6 million Jews were killed by Germany during WW2 is provide the names of each and everyone. Can't be done you say ? then its not Historical Fact but just hearsay or propaganda no matter what the Israeli's say or do to protect their version.

Kokoro

The Nazis did initially attempt enforced deportation. Firstly Jews were encouraged to leave the country and many of those who could afford to did so. Following the invasion of Poland, the Ghettos were established in most major towns and cities, and the Jews of western Europe were systematically deported to these Ghettos. These Ghettos were policed by Jews in the pay of the Nazis - the Kapos, who were then subsequently used for the same purpose in the concentration camps.

The inhabitants of the Ghettos were used for slave labour in local industry. Purpose built work camps with industrial attachments then allowed the clearance of the Ghettos. It was not until 1942 at the Wannsee Conference consisting of senior Nazis that the 'Final Solution' was put into practice.

At this point the Nazis thought total power of the European continent was within their control - Operation Barbarossa was going well and they felt that is was timely to completely eradicate the 'jewish problem' without fear of reprisal. When Barbarossa started going pear-shaped and the consequences of fighting a battle of two fronts took its toll, they went all out to conceal what they had been doing and attempted to kill every remaining jew. In fact vital resources were wasted on the exterminations that could have been used to fight the war. It was at this point that the Nazis started jumping ship wholesale and faith in Hitler began to wane.

For many senior Nazis, especially SS, it was more than understood what was going to happen if there were any witnesses left to testify.

mazzroth

I do appreciate your point, but I think it is unfair to discount the data that is available as hearsay. Its been said on all the other threads - the Nazis were amazing administrators and they kept very detailed records. Photographic evidence is pretty unequivocal too.

you do know alot of those photos were taken after the allies bombed rail ways, making it impossible to fed the inmates.

one thing that bothers me about the documents, is no where do the nazis claim methods of destruction of a person(ie gas chamber, electrical floors), but then people say "o this is were they used code words" BS i dont buy it, anyone can be anything you want them to be if you claim they used code words and only you know how to decipher them. it manipulation.

I fail to see how photographic evidence could serve as evidence of the 6 million number.

Originally posted by TheStev
I fail to see how photographic evidence could serve as evidence of the 6 million number.

you could start counting individuals

obviously I'm kidding. I think he was merely referring to the denial of the atrocities.

Originally posted by Crakeur
I think he was merely referring to the denial of the atrocities.

I have yet to see anyone deny the atrocities.

Originally posted by TheStev

Originally posted by Crakeur
Does it matter if 1 million or 6 million were systematically destroyed by the nazis? a plan to rid the planet of a group of people, no matter how many are actually killed, is still an evil plan.

Yes, but a plan to exploit the 1 million that were killed by adjusting the story and making use of it to garner public support is also evil - in my opinion. If it got from 1 million to 6 million, it did so with help - I doubt very much it was the result of a typo.

I agree, I think it would take a concerted effort to inflate numbers, and keep them inflated in the face of contradictory facts.

It's very easy to paint all holocaust revisionists with the anti-semitic brush, and a lot more difficult to entertain the possibility that this horribly tragedy was made worse because it has been exploited and manipulated for political gain.

Well put and very accurate.
It is no secret the AIPAC has unprecedented influance on U.S. policy.
It is no secret that there are many evangelical 'christian' preachers convincing their congregations that defense of Israel is paramount, using such lines as 'we must never let another jewish holocaust happen'.
Anyway, Im through with this thread. Obviously you are free to think what you want.....unless your Ernst Zundel with two dots over the U.

well take it the other way around..
is it only the ignorant and gullible who believe with out question the fact given to us by the people who want us to believe there things?
what if the facts of the holocaust aren't complitely the way they want us to believe they are.
if you may not question something then there is a coverup , what if there were less jews killed by the camps ? but it may also be that after real and new investigation that there were more jews killed but if you may not question the holocaust we may not find out because we would be in jail in some countries for even thinking of changing the facts in to what they really supose to be.

Originally posted by MarkLuitzen

is it only the ignorant and gullible who believe with out question the fact given

Combine that with the fact its a crime to even question the Holocaust in some countrys makes me extremely suspect of the official figures. Maybe its just me but i dont see the problem in investigating the Holocaust cause after all i should just arrive at the same figure of 6 million?, unless the Jews have something to hide.

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
The Holocaust is somewhat unique. The only other instance in recent history is the situation that occured against the musilms in former Yugoslavia

The serbs didnt' kill anywhere near the same numbers. There have been instances of attempted genocide before the Holocaust, and there had been mass murders with body counts in the millions outside of the holocaust, but what makes the holocaust unique is the combination of those factors.

and the continued victimisation of Muslim on a now international level.

Muslims haven't been herded into camps, anywhere, not even in Iraq. No one has sought to exterminate them. And no reputable politician, or state government, has blamed muslims for the ills of the world and singled them out for destruction. The Nazis, on the other hand, blamed the loss of WWII, and the economic collapse of germany, on the jews, and practically the jews alone, and felt that the problem could be solved by getting rid of the jews.

I worry about the motivations going on here and who is behind the current revisionist movement

Nazis and anti-semites, basically. Not everyone that has been duped by holocaust denial propaganda is a nazi or an anti-semite, obviously, but the 'leaders' of the movement mostly are.

11Bravo
And Nygdan, you tell the survivors of the trail of tears that there wasnt a systematic effort to eliminate the Native Americans.

Its really semantics anyway. The American indians weren't herded into camps and systematically executed. Period. It never happened. They were brutalized, oppressed, and there were numerous events where people purposely tried to kill off entire tribes, and often the government was complicit. Still, thats not the same as taking every amerindian in the continent, putting them into a slave labour camp, and executing them by the bundle.
But, again, its a semantic arguement.

You are obviously ignorant of American history, yet seem to be an expert on the Jewish holocaust

Ah, so now I am not a red blooded american, but infact a simpering jew obsessing over the holocaust. How convenient, offering up that I might be associated with the jews as a form of criticism.

Your mentality speaks volumes

As does your dodging of the facts and ignoring the evidence.

godldragnet
The Auswistz museum itself wants to take up your gauntlet as you put it. They revised their figures VERY substantially downwards

And if you notice the person doing the revision states that its based on the lists kept by the germans of who died, and he specifically states that there could be many more deaths that haven't been recorded by the germans.
He also states that they were using gas chambers at that camp to exterminate people. Do you agree then that the holocaust was an intentional attempt to exterminate the jewish people and that they used homocidal gas chambers?

Freedom ERP
Do the Romany people take as much advantage of the holocaust as the Jews do?

How are 'the jews' taking advantage of it? They're not the ones that created the anti-nazi laws in germany or the rest of europe. They were already on track to get Israel as their own state before the holocaust, so how did they 'take advantage of it'?
If we don't hear abouy gypsys dying in the holocaust as much as we hear about jews dying in it, then thats the fault of the gypsys for not taking up serious efforts to not let it be forgetten or denied.

In some European countries, it is illegal to publically deny the holocaust. If we live in a free society, every view must be tolerated.

No society tolerates every view. Holocaust denial is illegal because it is considered a form of Nazism, and clearly Germany, of all places, can make Nazism illegal.

Does this mean I am ignorant and gullible because I refuse to accept the numbers?

Why don't you accept the numbers of around 6 million?

TheStev
If it got from 1 million to 6 million, it did so with help - I doubt very much it was the result of a typo.

It wasn't 1 million, it was around 6 million.

but a plan to exploit the 1 million that were killed by adjusting the story and making use of it to garner public support is also evil

So bascially you are accusing 'the evil jews' of lying about the holocaust and taking advtange of their own people in order to get more 'public sympathy' than they would have gotten if only 1 million of them were killed?
Thats complete nonsense.

[edit on 1-3-2007 by Nygdan]

Originally posted by mazzroth
Well to be fair to History, all that has to be done to "PROVE" 6 million Jews were killed by Germany during WW2 is provide the names of each and everyone. Can't be done you say ? then its not Historical Fact but just hearsay or propaganda no matter what the Israeli's say or do to protect their version.

There are 4 million names recorded. And we clearly aren't going to have the names of everyone that died in the Holocaust. The historical studies show that it was around 6 million. The historical studies were not done 'by israel'.

Originally posted by Glyph_D
you do know alot of those photos were taken after the allies bombed rail ways, making it impossible to fed the inmates.

And that made gassing chambers a good idea, how?

one thing that bothers me about the documents, is no where do the nazis claim methods of destruction of a person

The SS officers that were running the camps talk about herding people into gas chambers and gassing them. The forensic evidence corroborates those testimonies, and the similarities of testimonies from nazis to other prisoners also corroborates them. The documentary evidence also corroborates them. We have photos, requisition orders, blueprints, the chemical remains of homocidal gas chambers, reports from surivors, the personal testimonies of nazis from before the war was over, and finally out and out confessions from the nazis afterwards.

thestev
I fail to see how photographic evidence could serve as evidence of the 6 million number

It should be fairly obvious that no one claimed that the photos of gas chambers, death camps, and mass burials and mass burnings provided a death count. The photos show what the nazis were doing, setting about exterminating an entire people, they don't give us the numbers.

11bravo
I have yet to see anyone deny the atrocities.

Denying that millions were killed is denying the atrocity.

and keep them inflated in the face of contradictory facts.

Facts that have never been presented.

It is no secret the AIPAC has unprecedented influance on U.S. policy.

And therefore the jews are lying about the holocaust, they faked the documents, beat confessions out of the nazis, made up the death lists?
Sorry, it does not follow.

mazzroth
but its interesting that he held them in such a low light.

Why is it interesting that someone from the generation that tried to exterminate the jews from europe would have a low opinion of jews? It wasn't just the nazis that were anti-semites.

Originally posted by Nygdan

TheStev
If it got from 1 million to 6 million, it did so with help - I doubt very much it was the result of a typo.

It wasn't 1 million, it was around 6 million.

but a plan to exploit the 1 million that were killed by adjusting the story and making use of it to garner public support is also evil

So bascially you are accusing 'the evil jews' of lying about the holocaust and taking advtange of their own people in order to get more 'public sympathy' than they would have gotten if only 1 million of them were killed?
Thats complete nonsense.

Please do you live in a cave without TV ?, i cannot watch a TV show without a mention of the "H" word. If its not Will and Grace trying to find "nice jewish boys" its The OC with there relentless schedules of bar mitzvahs. Its just a simple fact of life the Holocaust is heavily used for public sympathy.

I watched a 4 hour Documentary on Sobibor and treblinka on youtube the other day and I am more than convinced that the official Holocaust story is full of lies and deception.

Ok some Jews were killed I don't disagree but the sheer volume claimed is hard to believe. 6000 Jews Killed a day is a figure quoted by historians to equal the 6 million by the wars end. It is generally recognised that there were 6 Extermination camps ( not to be confused with encarceration camps ). That means they would on average have to kill 1000 each every day.

Come on, after a week there would be no place left to put the corpses let alone a month.

The people that deny the Holocaust sicken me. I don't care how many non-Jews were killed as well, the point is that it DID HAPPEN and it was horrible for all parties.

Everyone suffered in that way, but it is a INDISPUTABLE FACT that millions of Jews, Gypsies, Disabled, Homosexuals and other undesirables were murdered under Hitler's Gestapo and SS/SA.