Why are Atheists Atheists?

Originally posted by GreatTech

Originally posted by shizzle5150
What a fine diagram!!!!!!

shizzle5150, the diagram you linked to is not completely accurate as it judges Faith unfairly. Faith can be extremely simple and/or extremely complex. My experience in science shows that science rarely involves the complexities of Eternal Life; it assumes what it can see, but not what cannot be seen.

Be that as it may concerning science and eternal life, however faith and religion do not concern themselves with eternal life but only with the opinions of the few that the many deem authoritative.

Theology frequently helps desrcribe some of the mysteries of the Universe and Eternal Life. I recommend that you speak to a leader in theology before you believe that people with Faith and Spirituality are unintelligent and misguided.

NO - theology helps describe the opinions of the few.

What is more powerful: a scientific world that dies at age 65 or a faithful world that lives for Eternity?

In accordance with what?????

Happy Easter and Merry Christmas or Happy Holidays to those days that are linked to Faith!!!

Happy Vernal Equinox and Happy Winter Solistice and birthday greetings to several gods: Attis, Frey, Thor, Dionysus, Osiris, Adonis, Mithra, Tammuz, Cernunnos and so forth.

Who needs faith eh?


G

In hopes of getting this thread back on track, back to the question of why are atheists atheists? Now I welcome religious folks to chime in but what I have seen a lot of here is defamatory remarks, and a lot of looking down on because we don't believe. I also think that there is a by in large belief that we haven't read the bible. I think that is a poor assumption because I my self was raised as a person of faith (presbyterian, and went to church with a lot of baptists) In growing older I have found that faith for me is not enough. I could have faith in anything as many Christians have cited that faith and belief based on evidence are not comparable. I.E. I have faith that the sun revolves around the earth.

Now, my decision to make the change to atheist was a complex one, For me faith is not enough. I saw myself being "ignorant"(ignorance is the choice to not act or behave in accordance with regard to certain information in order to suit ones own needs or beliefs.) and a lot of other people of faith doing the same. Now I have heard people in this thread and others state

1. "When God approaches you, it is filled with love and power!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

My reply to this would be that I have never had god approach me. Nor have I ever felt his presence in any shape or form, and during my time spent as a Christian I most certainly tried.

2. I sometimes try to, no matter how weakly, to inspire others to have faith.

While your heart is in the right place I have had it and after spending 15 years of my life with it, I am happier than ever and have seen no reason or evidence as to why I should go back. Further more I do not try to inspire others not to have faith, if they want to thats fine.

3. "Well, I don't do that", "My church is not like that", "your taking someones actions and applying it to all Christians"

Any time an atheist brings up something bad that has happened in their experiences I.E. Christians being hateful, preachers molesting alter boys, Christians discriminating etc. etc. these among others are common excuses. I can personally say that I have been to a lot of churches during my stint as a Christian. Almost all were guilty of many of the things I have herd atheists make points over. If they are such rare occurrences why do they happen so often and by so many Christians?? And of coarse no body ever sees or does these things or you know one or two. Of coarse we don't have a leg to stand on when it comes to you dismissing these allegations, this is a forum, I can't see the ways you conduct yourselves away from the computer. What does trouble me is the way a lot of people act in here, calling atheist unintelegent, self centered, their beliefs a disease, having no morals, the list goes on and on.

4. God is good god is great.

If you want to believe that, thats fine but one of the main reasons I am the way I am today is reading the story of Job, that guy that god liked so much because he liked go so much. Looking at it from a Christian standpoint (assuming the bible was gods word and record) He is no god I want to worship. The poor guy had so many awful things done to him over a pissing match between god and satin Why would a god that is so great allow the devil to do so many bad things to his number one fan? In order to be right? Prove the devil wrong? Seems to me if god was so great he would have said "get out of here satin" and cast him back down to hell again (how did him and god communicate anyway? did god give satin visitation rights to heaven?). Did the all-mighty take pleasure in saying "I told you so" to the devil. Oh well granted, the devil could not kill job but he could come real close, his family was fair game though.

5."How are you going to live differently if at all?
Does knowing God exist change you?"

I don't know do you think getting hit by a lightning bolt changed Ben Franklin. The only difference between god and a lightning bolt is lightning bolts can be studied and thats what he was doing. Provide tangible evidence for something and I will be a lot more likely to believe in it.

6. "god performs miracles everyday"

Fair enough, he is pretty sneaky about it though. All of these miracles going on and I have yet to see the guy once. Not to mention with the 2.1 billion followers he is quite the multi tasker, performing miracles here answering prayers there all at the same time. He must be absolutely swamped on Sundays. I know that whether or not he tends to all of them is "his will". Like when I buy a lottery ticket it's the ping pong balls "will" if I win or loose. Which is also kind of funny that there are christians that win the lottery, I kind of though the bible stated it was frowned upon? Oh well, you just say thank you god, repent and remember to tithe, it's all good.

7. "What is the atheist compass based on?"

Here is a post from another thread that I touched on that a little bit.

I was particularly interested in the question where do we get our morals? The Christians get theirs from the bible. Lets take off the atheist shoes for a minute and say that the Christians are correct and there is a god. In the bible it states god gave man discernment. If this is true every man has a common for lack of a better word understanding or perhaps morality of what is right and what is wrong. I.E. I know that to steal is wrong, I don't have to have anything other than my brain and my conscience to know that.

So if there is a god and the bible is held to be correct, all men/women whether they choose to follow god's ways are born with the common sense of right and wrong. Being born with Morality is a given. we all have it from the time we are born, the understanding increases with age. So to make the assumption that someone does not have this common trait because they do not adhere to your personal set of values is more than wrong, it is overriding the very right and wrong instincts that the bible says god gave man.

8. "Athiests are misguided"

Are you stating this because we do not subscribe to the one "right religion", your religion? I guess all the other religions are misguided too. They could not have anywhere near the odds of being right.

[edit on 28-2-2007 by shizzle5150]

continued.... I would argue they have equally the odds of being the right religion, and their deity existing. I haven't seen Brahman, Ishvara, Buddha, etc., etc. While I am sure there are people who say "he/it touched me, worked miracles", "I beleive in he/it/she with all my heart, strength", "The (insert any religious teaching book here) is fact and record of my god and I will treat it as such" and alot of other things Christians use to demonstrate they have it all right. It's kind of the pot calling the kettle black to say other religions are misguided, or people without one. I guess if you want to be so conceited to believe that your religion is the only one to have it right.... Thats a right you have but keep in mind this belief has started wars since we started recording history. Granted its usually the elite that use it as the tool of war, allowing uneducated and or brainwashed people do the dirty work.

Delving more into other religions I like the argument christians make about how "you would have to be a fool to not believe in god" or the "if you're right it makes no difference but if there is a god you're in trouble". This only reinforces how Christians, and other religious people dispel and can't even comprehend the Idea of another religion being right. "the if there is a god" part of the statement is open ended,
What if the other god that is, is not your god??? (language content warning on the last link)

I'm sure that people will argue that it's a not the religion that starts war, its people. You might be correct but the fact of the matter is that the people are ones who have the religion. When two religions teach different beliefs and those beliefs conflict with each other you get the "my views are right and no matter what you show or tell me otherwise will change them" attitude that Christians among other religious people have. Having two people with that mentality is like setting a bucket of nitroglycerin in a bumpercar ride at the fair. "It's not my bumpercars fault that the bumpercar that bounced off it set it off." I think rather than dodging blame it would be more correct to say "our bumpercars both had a part in causing this explosion and lets not bring anymore buckets of volatile explosives in", but that never seems to happen when people are steadfast in their views.

9.citing the bible for your facts

I really don't have a problem with people bringing in bible vs. It is a interesting book and has some good morals. But why is it that whenever groups of bible vs. are cited they come from all different parts of the book? Moreover why do preachers jump around so much when giving a sermon? Could it be to tailor the lesson to their agenda? I know that some feel the bible is the guide to their life but, why skip around the guide. When I use a chiltons auto manual (a guide to working on cars) I don't try to find the valve tolerance in the suspension part. Nor would I tell anyone the valve tolerance should be 9/16ths of an inch because I found that tolerance in a different part of the book that applies to a different subject matter. Not to mention if the bible were compared to a auto repair manual, it would be missing the section talking about reliability issues because the people who decided what would be in it had their own agenda.

I guess that the main points of why I am an atheist is there are too many contradictions for the bible to be the word of an omnipotent entity. I have read/am reading some other religious scriptures and they too suffer from the same faults. Why would the omnipotent being with the power to do so much good turn a deaf ear to real problems that are happening now. If it's his "will" he has shoddy wills. Why would it need to be jealous, if it were so all knowing and able to make this existence in seven days, why not piss on the fire and make a different one that does not make him jealous. Why if it is so powerful, do away with the devil all together and not have to worry about the whole fruit of knowledge issue he had. If he performs miracles like curing cancer, why not fix everyone or better yet make people without these inherent problems in the first place. And why most importantly hide from the people you want to worship you. How hard would it be to come down here every 20 or so years and say "hey guys just dropped in to let you know I was still there"? Why let the devil have his way with such a good guy? only to show up the devil? Why even let the devil go on? Just wipe him out instead of giving him real estate and not have all of the problems with sin to begin with. The list goes on and on.

The only probable answer I have to these questions is

It was just a book(s) made by man with no other purpose to control people. And because the book teaches to perpetuate itself, children are not given the opportunity otherwise unless they truly step back and look at the world with their religious ideals aside, they will keep the I can't question this mentality that keeps so many religions alive.

In the unlikely event I am wrong and evidence is provided that a god does exist I'm sure this is the place I will find out from. I also encourage anyone who has evidence that they are wrong to submit it.









[edit on 28-2-2007 by shizzle5150]

[edit on 28-2-2007 by shizzle5150]

[edit on 28-2-2007 by shizzle5150]

sorry for all of the edits, I must have had a cookie problem because when I hit the preview post it had the version before edit??? I copied it but when I hit the back button it wiped it out, so I pasted and had to fix all the hyperlinks.

[edit on 28-2-2007 by shizzle5150]

Are you a strong atheist or weak atheist? Rate it on a scale of 1 to a 100, 1 to 50 being a weak atheist, and 51 to 100 being a strong atheist.

Originally posted by GreatTech
Are you a strong atheist or weak atheist? Rate it on a scale of 1 to a 100, 1 to 50 being a weak atheist, and 51 to 100 being a strong atheist.

wait, tech, how would you define "strong" and "weak" atheism?

and where would you put richard dawkins on that scale (that's just a reference point for me)

I am going to have to take atheist for 100 bob.

By meaning strong I don't feel that people don't have a right to believe what they want to believe. I just think they should question from time to time.

I just say 100 because there is no tangible proof of any deity, in any religion. Should there ever be tangible proof, my scale would drop to 0. And when I say tangible I mean undisputed by anyone.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

Originally posted by GreatTech
Are you a strong atheist or weak atheist? Rate it on a scale of 1 to a 100, 1 to 50 being a weak atheist, and 51 to 100 being a strong atheist.

wait, tech, how would you define "strong" and "weak" atheism?

and where would you put richard dawkins on that scale (that's just a reference point for me)

madnessinmysoul, to put it in simple quantitative terms, a weak atheist believes there is a 51-75% chance that God does not exist. A strong atheist believes there is a 76-100% chance that God does not exist.

Richard Dawkins would have to answer for himself. I believe he is an intelligent man in certain earthly areas, but misguided in many other areas. I would rate him a strong atheist, somewhere in the 98-100 range.

Originally posted by RomanianDacianHun

.... Whats wrong with hating? Nothing, Im human, humans hate, if we werent meant to hate then we never would, wed all just be a bunch of cowards, nothing to light a fire to defend our beliefs or to be independant.

if one serves hate, then they are dependant upon hate.
being dependant upon hate does not equal independence.

And whats so wrong if someone thinks outside of the box and doesnt pester God by asking him to bless this or that, or to let them win the lottery because theyre down on their luck?

a prerequisite to "thinking outside the box" is knowing what the box is, and how to get out of it in the first place.

by preaching hate it is apparent that you are within the box that you have never thought outside of.

whatever you practice in your actions and your behaviors, which is a reflection of your true intentions, is what your god is.

I think God appreciates me opressing those who deny him rather than asking for so much from him.

you said: "i think ..."

that is an omission that it is the attributes you recognize within yourself which is what you attempt to apply to god, as such attributes you know of yourself are the only basis for comparison when you attempt to pass judgement upon the throne of god.


In regards to your pro-hate for god theology ....

if you reverence hate so much, where does it come from?
if you reverence hate so much, what variables created it?
if you reverence hate so much, what is it's opposite?

You speak through your opinion, and you don't even know what constitutes your opinion.

You speak through you opinion, and you don't even know what makes your opinion up.

if your opinion is your basis for comparison, and you do not know what variables add up to make your opinion, then the opinion you use to judge god with is ... nothing you know anything about.

Originally posted by RomanianDacianHun
I pray of my devotion to him and my cause, and my hate and drive to hurt those who disrespect his name and his kingdom.

to hurt out of hate is to inflict damage upon god's kingdom.
to hurt intentionally is to infict damage upon god's kingdom.
to hate intentionally is to inflict hate upon god.

Im not the typical new age peace loving follower of God. Im human, have not known peace, and feel hate above all other emotions.

you feel hate above all other emotions because that is as high as you got evidently.

If hate is what you know, you have not felt the truth of the other emotions.

Originally posted by shizzle5150
I am going to have to take atheist for 100 bob.

By meaning strong I don't feel that people don't have a right to believe what they want to believe. I just think they should question from time to time.

I just say 100 because there is no tangible proof of any deity, in any religion. Should there ever be tangible proof, my scale would drop to 0. And when I say tangible I mean undisputed by anyone.

shizzle5150, is there tangible proof of atheism?

God has not touched you yet in your consciousness.

If only there was another planet that all Atheists can move to, where they can focus on moral and scienific development without having to worry about anything religious.

Let the religious argue endlessly with each other, Which God to worship, Which correct method to live and worship God, What religious laws to obey, Who is the Devil etc. (all other religious topics)

The atheists would be free from the religious to pursue other subjects. So long as they each stay away from one another's planets.

Unfortunatly I do not think the the religious would leave anyone alone for long, soon or later, their devotion would cause them to want to "Spread The Word." to everyone until the entire universe sees their light.

There will come a day when some other more technoloically advanced but very religious alien beings would come along to spead their religious faith onto the less advanced human beings.

One more religion to worry about, sigh. I wonder how many more exist out there......

[edit on 1-3-2007 by ixiy]

Originally posted by ixiy
If only there was another planet that all Atheists can move to, where they can focus on moral and scienific development without having to worry about anything religious.

Let the religious argue endlessly with each other, Which God to worship, Which correct method to live and worship God, What religious laws to obey, Who is the Devil etc. (all other religious topics)

The atheists would be free from the religious to pursue other subjects. So long as they each stay away from one another's planets.

Unfortunatly I do not think the the religious would leave anyone alone for long, soon or later, their devotion would cause them to want to "Spread The Word." to everyone until the entire universe sees their light.

There will come a day when some other more technoloically advanced but very religious alien beings would come along to spead their religious faith onto the less advanced human beings.

One more religion to worry about, sigh. I wonder how many more exist out there......

[edit on 1-3-2007 by ixiy]

Everyone listen please

I am here defending Athiests from abuse & discrimination by people of my own faith to which I take offense.

I am here viewing offensive comments about religion to which I take offense.

The original post made this thread a mistake from the beginning.

This is not a court room.

This is ATS which (believe it or not) is a place of learning.

I belong to the thought schools of rationalism & idealism, you may be different but no school talks trash.

How can I make this simple:

You look at a piece of wood and you see wood. Someone else looking at the piece of wood sees steel. Although you are looking at the same object you both know it is wood because you are told it is wood. Just the same as you all know what discrimination is because you are told what it is from a young age.



Please communicate with good intentions.




[edit on 1-3-2007 by Selmer2]

Originally posted by GreatTech
Are you a strong atheist or weak atheist? Rate it on a scale of 1 to a 100, 1 to 50 being a weak atheist, and 51 to 100 being a strong atheist.

I would have to say that I am a strong atheist probably a 99%'er, I'll leave a percent for sake of argument and different definitions of god.


G

Originally posted by GreatTech
List one or more reasons. I will list three:

1) Atheists have different thought patterns: rarely does God enter their mind for the cause and effect of any event.

2) Atheists have different vocabularies: frequently they score a little above average on "standardized tests" but these tests frequently have little to do with Sacred, Spiritual, and religious texts. They are more concerned with knowledge rather than wisdom. They frequently take part in the "selling of the soul syndrome."

3) Atheists' mind's eyes are underdeveloped: they frequently cannot associate the Creation of something as magnificent as the Universe to anything but a human or an atom of hydrogen.

Personally, I believe in God with all my heart, soul, mind, and strength!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

When God approaches you, it is filled with love and power!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You know what, this is extremely insulting. Well then, here’s my rebuttal (note I’m trying to stay at your own level of communication).

Top 3 year reasons why God-believers (such as GreatTech) are deluded, brain washed, duped, misled, confused, mentally ill, fallacious, illogical, false, unsound, stupid, fools, half-witted, nutcases, moronic, imbeciles, and simply completely incorrect.

Actually, I think I only need to post one picture to sum it all up:

Selmer2, I appreciate your input as you have not been rude nor ignorant. I value people of faith like you that can be reasonable. I hope I haven't been offensive to you. Thanks for your input, I know that sometimes peoples beliefs or lack of them can be offensive, that is a given. It is the derogatory remarks we have the option to use or not use. It's unfortunate people choose to.

And vlad, I do not condone your trashing of greatech. The only part I found ofensive was the "selling of the soul syndrome". As offensive as that may be to me I do not feel anything he said gives you the right to use derogatory remarks against him in the way you did, or moreover religious people in general. I understand why you can be offended but why don't you talk about why rather than retorting with harsh words. You bettered this thread in no way shape or form. :shk:

[edit on 1-3-2007 by shizzle5150]

Selmer2,

I am sorry if I have offended you or anyone else, I will try to make it simpler.

The atheists generally believe more in science and the religious in their faith. They each try to convince each other to see from their point of view, but when one side starts to force the other, things get ugly.

The atheist generally do not believe in religion, or God's existence and do not practice it. Why should religion be force on an atheist?

The religious can choose not to believe in science, or its existence and not use it. Why should science be forced on the religious?

The Atheists should not go to a church, if they do not wish to be healed by faith.

The Religious should not go to a hospital, if they do not wish to be healed by science.

If they each stay out of one others way, conflicts are unlikely to arise.

Atheists have no need to spread their science to others who do not want, need or believe in it.

Why do the religious need to spread their faith to others who do not want, need or believe in it?

Why do the religious see the need to spread their faith to others with a different kind of faith than their own?

When everyone believes that their views are correct and have a desire so strong that force is used to make another follow what one believes to be correct causes conflicts.

Why is there a need so strong that one is willing to kill another over it? Who is truly correct? Can we all be wrong about what we believe? Is one willing to see if they may have been wrong? Can blind faith be dangerous?

No offence is intended.

Originally posted by VladTheImpaler

Top 3 year reasons why God-believers (such as GreatTech) are deluded, brain washed, duped, misled, confused, mentally ill, fallacious, illogical, false, unsound, stupid, fools, half-witted, nutcases, moronic, imbeciles, and simply completely incorrect.

Actually, I think I only need to post one picture to sum it all up:

VladTheImpaler, you need more love in your life. I will pray for you.

To all atheists: do you feel atheism is a mark of intelligence? As a former atheist in graduate school at the University of Chicago, I use to believe so. Since believing in God 11 years ago, I believe that atheism prevents us from being truly creative. How can we be truly creative and not believe in the One that created it all?

I do not mean to be critical of atheists; just sharing my experience.

Originally posted by GreatTech
To all atheists: do you feel atheism is a mark of intelligence? As a former atheist in graduate school at the University of Chicago, I use to believe so. Since believing in God 11 years ago, I believe that atheism prevents us from being truly creative. How can we be truly creative and not believe in the One that created it all?

I do not mean to be critical of atheists; just sharing my experience.

You know the answer already GreatTech. There is an inverse relationship between religiosity and various measures of intelligence. It does not mean every atheist is more intelligent than every theist, but there is a general relationship.

What you believe about atheism retarding creativity doesn't really mean much in the real-world.

Science requires a good chunk of creativity, a good proportion of scientists are atheists, therefore they are likely to be creative. You can play the 'true creativity = theist' card but that means nada.

ABE: So the answer to:

" How can we be truly creative and not believe in the One that created it all?"

is possibly because this belief has nothing to do with all the traits underlying creativity?

Saying that, schizotypy is related to forms of creativity, schizotypic individuals possess a tendency to magical & idiosyncratic beliefs, thus it is possible that schizotypic believers show high creativity. This is usually in the arts though (thus we know artists do show higher levels of manic depression etc).

Just an OT question, did you complete grad school?

[edit on 1-3-2007 by melatonin]

Originally posted by ixiy
Selmer2,

I am sorry if I have offended you or anyone else, I will try to make it simpler.

No need to apologise, it wasn't directed at you but everyone