Okay, I've got a general type question, leading into (surprise surprise!) a quasi-philosophical one...

How many of you guys have been, or are, in the military?

Thus far, I know of 2 (Dark_Elf & OrangeTom)... I'm pondering how that has affected opinions regarding self-defense. Obviously, there is a direct link, depending on situations (war-time experience).

Maybe it's an issue of having had that experience, while the rest of us do not?

And if this is the case, then is it possible that we're simply biased in opposite directions?

Y'all _have_ that experience, as well as being trained to be constantly aware of 'the enemy'... especially in war-time where darn near anyone could be an enemy.


(I know there's a better way to phrase what exactly I mean, and it's just not coming to me... I shall ponder some more in the event that the words come to me.)

....maybe my question is: How as the military training affected your views on self-defense and 'the enemy'...?

[edit on 29-1-2007 by Diseria]

OrangeTom,

I have read the Baghavad Gita, and portions of the Qu'ran, but that is pretty much the extent of religious texts.

I know that the Qu'ran has two parts -- one for peace times, and another for war times. I know that Muhammed wrote it as a response to the situations he and his people were facing at that time. And I know that even the 'literalist readers' are not true to the definition of 'literalist', because they out and out ignore the peaceful aspects.

All texts are open to interpretation/misinterpretation. And I'm well aware of the ambiguity of words... Thus, as always, I administer a grain of salt and of sugar with everything that I read.



Whitewave,

IMHO, all behavior that is "anti-life" deserves and requires extinguishing. It is not murder to cut out a cancerous growth that is killing you. It is life-affirming.

I've heard that smoking is life-affirming!

*cough*




Anyhow, I understand your point. I have, indeed, lived my life in a blessed bubble - I've had my garage egged, and my father's work-van broken into. Outside of a few name-callings, lewd stares (a rarity), and general disdain for my appearance, I've never been outright confronted.

I've never come face to face with the 'anti-life'... I have no frame of reference for this stuff, other than situations in my head which, admittedly, always work to my advantage. (go figure, right?)

As I've said before, I know that I _can_ seriously hurt someone. In wrestling, I've hurt people without meaning to, so I know I've got the strength. Of course, those were on different terms (friendly verses unfriendly/aggressive), so I'm completely unsure. (And to be honest, I'm not sure that I can rely on my banshee scream either, thanks to 7 years of smoking...)

In the end, I have to agree with you and Dark_Elf in that IF we are _absolutely clear_ who the enemy is, no reasonable doubt, no doubt at all. _Then_ reason dictates to preserve oneself.

But, if I'm not entirely sure, I will not make the judgement call to pre-emptively end someone's life...

However, after some serious thought, I've decided that I'm much more prone to defending someone else than myself. It makes sense to me to sacrifice myself to save someone else. How can I sacrifice myself for myself? ...seems almost egotistical.


GPS777,

Chances are that, at least for me, the guys would think I'm a guy (unless they happen to know me from work or something)... I'm not a chicky chick. (Alright, if there's a mouse or a roach I'll squeal, but that's about it. ) I've been called Sir more than once, so it's not a far-fetched reality. One of the few times that I'd be grateful for being an androgenous odd duckling!

gps,

there are any number of potential situations in which defense of yourself or another may occur. that's one of the reasons that lawyers quote "precedents". it kinda speeds up the legal process if you just say, "last time this sort of thing happened, here's how we handled it." unfortunately, people keep thinking up new and ingeniously nefarious ways to kill each other so that new cases have to have lengthy trials to weigh all the variables. over the years i have had to curb my tendency to jump in to save other people from their aggressors. oddly enough, it's not always appreciated.

as far as women finding themselves in dire circumstances and using their womanly wiles to combat the situation or, lacking success with that strategy, just "grinning and bearing it" i have a contradictory sentiment. a woman my age will have trouble using "womanly wiles" in a dire circumstance (or any circumstance, lol) and as for "just grin and bear it" advice, let me ask you if you or one of your loved ones has ever been brutally raped? i don't expect an answer, just your consideration. having been in such dire circumstances, i have vowed to myself that if i ever have to face such a situation again, i will do my very best to permanently maim or kill such a vile aggressor and will sleep well at night knowing the world is a better place without them. if i am physically unable to prevent such a vicious crime, i will spend whatever strength and resources i have or can acquire to hunt down and destroy such a predator. i would rather kill myself and deny them the satisfaction of their power trip. there are some things worth dying for and each person has to decide for themselves what value system they embrace and how committed they are to their ideals/values. my "worth dying for" list is pretty short and, in most insults/injuries, i would rather tolerate the wrong done than to repay in kind and have to answer to my Maker why i wasn't more tolerant and or forgiving. when it comes to the issue of dealing with rapists/attempted rapists, i say as did king David: let us fall into the hands of God and not into the hands of man for great are His mercies.

in a survival situation there are liable to be roving bands of barbarians or groups of predators lying in wait for some unsuspecting prey in which case one does the best one can to survive. btw, women are not the only casualties of that particular brand of crime. something for the men to consider.

Diseria,
didn't mean to sidetrack your question. i'm anxious to hear the responses to it. it's just the second time on this thread that i've heard that suggestion for women and i thought there might be lurkers who, reading it, might feel that it's not okay for them to have the idea to fight back.

carry on. it's a good question and worthy of consideration.

Originally posted by whitewave
"grinning and bearing it" i have a contradictory sentiment. a woman my age will have trouble using "womanly wiles" in a dire circumstance (or any circumstance, lol) and as for "just grin and bear it" advice, let me ask you if you or one of your loved ones has ever been brutally raped? i don't expect an answer, just your consideration.

Ì`m not sure if you read or understood my post,because if you did you would have realize i wouldn`t have given my advice to begin with regarding womens safety if i wasn`t being considerate.

I`ll answer the question also to which you dont expect one.

I have no idea how brutal your experience was nor do i need to know,several women who i have had a relationship with and a few more that i personally know have been raped or sexually molestered as an adult or when they were young.

One was headline front page news a girlfriend of my girlfriends.

One women my Mr`s and myself have recently met was sexually abused from a very early age by her step dad with her moms knowledge and approval,her real father eventually found out about it and began sexually abusing her also.

You have NO idea how this makes me @@@ feel or what i`d like to do,so dont even try to begin to tell me i`m not considerate.I can tell you i`m much more angry at them than i am right now,having read how you have interpeted what i wrote.

My advice stands i make no apologies for it(though i may have been able to word it better?),a women either for herself or for her loved ones or those she has responsibilities to,need her to survive.

Is why i gave that advice.

Thanks for the welcomes. I’m happy to be back. I am amazed at how this thread has evolved from surviving menstruation to surviving life-threatening situations.

Originally posted by gps777

If say for instance in situation X a female finds herself in a dire situation i recommend using your femininity to your advantage (without going into detail),you will need to do him harm much more so than kicking in the gonads,as that will only buy you a minute or so to escape.

Once he has gained his breathe back i can assure you your in for a bad day.

You will need to incapacitate him,eg stab him,shoot him etc this need not be a fatal wound,but may end up being one,that need not be your concern your safety is.

If you were to find yourself in a group of males situation,grin and bear it if you can and hope you survive to later escape.

In those times of what ever situation X is and the many varying degrees in which it can be,everyone will have to evaluate the situation on what they deem appropriate action or measures.

I understand your logic, but I strongly feel that I must point out the flaw in it. It is highly obvious that you are an honorable man as you have no idea what is involved in a gang rape. If your sit x scenario were only about surviving unwanted sex, I would tend to agree with you. Don’t fight it, grin and bear it, etc. . . . Rape is more than an unwanted sex act. It is a degrading and dehumanizing experience for the victim. The body may physically heal, but the psyche may never heal. Gang rape during sit x (when the perpetrators have no fear of prosecution) could very well end with the death of the victim. My advice would be to avoid being in any situation that could lead to that scenario.

A one-on-one situation provides more opportunity to take out your attacker than does a group situation, but avoiding the situation provides a greater chance of survival. Observation is quickly becoming a lost art. Your greatest survival tool is knowing and understanding what is happening in your environment. I can’t afford to rely on my “femininity”. Most of the young men in my life view me in a mother/grandmother fashion. I haven’t flirted in years and am not sure that I would remember how. I prefer to be aware of my surroundings and avoid unwanted confrontations. The best defense is not being in a situation that requires it.

Originally posted by Diseria
Okay, I've got a general type question, leading into (surprise surprise!) a quasi-philosophical one...

How many of you guys have been, or are, in the military?

Thus far, I know of 2 (Dark_Elf & OrangeTom)... I'm pondering how that has affected opinions regarding self-defense. Obviously, there is a direct link, depending on situations (war-time experience).

Although I have retired status, I only served ten years. My retirement was due to a medical problem resulting from an operation while I was in the Navy. I have since worked as a military contractor, as my husband continues to do. My husband is a Vietnam and Beirut combat veteran/survivor. I draw from all of these experiences.

Maybe it's an issue of having had that experience, while the rest of us do not?

And if this is the case, then is it possible that we're simply biased in opposite directions?

Y'all _have_ that experience, as well as being trained to be constantly aware of 'the enemy'... especially in war-time where darn near anyone could be an enemy.

Although I have not experienced actual war, I have been able to draw from my training and other’s experiences.

(I know there's a better way to phrase what exactly I mean, and it's just not coming to me... I shall ponder some more in the event that the words come to me.)

Nah, you expressed it perfectly as expressed in your question.

....maybe my question is: How as the military training affected your views on self-defense and 'the enemy'...?

It is only a part of how my views were formed. Back in the late sixties, I was protesting the Vietnam War. My dad sat me down and told me a very haunting story. He was in the Army during the Korean War. He told of the day a very young Korean child toddled into his camp. Before anyone could shout a warning, a young G.I. intent on rescuing the child died as the result of the explosion of a grenade hidden in the child’s diaper. My husband, years later, confirmed that the same scenario took place in Vietnam.

Although my dad interpreted the incidence as the Asian’s disregard for life, my husband more accurately interpreted the incident as people who would sacrifice their own children to promote their survival and/or political cause. The bottom line is that you can not always be certain who the enemy actually is. This is why observation is so important.

Everyone’s life experiences are different, important and valid. I have learned much from the experiences of others which is why I share my own. We are not shaped by any one experience, but by the collection of all experiences.

Originally posted by darkelf

I understand your logic, but I strongly feel that I must point out the flaw in it.

OK I must be dumb then,because through your post i was unable to hear the flaw in my logic you clearly see.If i`ve missed something pardon me.

It is highly obvious that you are an honorable man as you have no idea what is involved in a gang rape.

Let me see if i get this statement right...

In your opinion i`m highly Honorable because i dont know what happens in gang rape.?

If thats correct?

I have to disagree,do you think its only women who can understand this and also do you think that men are not gang raped? that i cant understand what it would be like for either male or female?

Maybe you just needed to hear that to understand i`m able to understand more than you think i or other men do or can?.

It is a degrading and dehumanizing experience for the victim.

As i said the victim doesn`t have to be just female and even if it were,that doesn`t mean i cannot understand what a vile act that must be for her to go through or live with.

The body may physically heal, but the psyche may never heal. Gang rape during sit x (when the perpetrators have no fear of prosecution) could very well end with the death of the victim. My advice would be to avoid being in any situation that could lead to that scenario.

Bolded mine

Thats obvious Dark Elf,avoiding it should be first and foremost.

But in the gang situation where one could find themselves in, I stand by my advice not to attack as in the one on one situation that I explained,Otherwise the part in which I bolded above would be very likely.
You will have a better chance of survival,to live and fight another day.which would then make your statement correct.("very well could")

A one-on-one situation provides more opportunity to take out your attacker than does a group situation, but avoiding the situation provides a greater chance of survival. Observation is quickly becoming a lost art.

Observation is good advice DE,but take Katrina for example,that situation wasn`t very long and yet rapes were happening in that sports dome after a couple of days or so.

Now exaggerate that crisis/disaster long term with no order,it would be extremely hazardous for anyone anywhere.One might be in the wild and their camp fire is spotted they maybe a sleep ect.Pretty hard to remain undetected while detecting everyone else in the vicinity.

For a few people I respect here they seem to want to give me some stick?

Well batter up,I`m game.

[edit on 30-1-2007 by gps777]

Originally posted by gps777
OK I must be dumb then,because through your post i was unable to hear the flaw in my logic you clearly see.If i`ve missed something pardon me.

Then the fault is mine for not making my thought more clear.

Let me see if i get this statement right...

In your opinion i`m highly Honorable because i dont know what happens in gang rape.?

If thats correct?

I have to disagree,do you think its only women who can understand this and also do you think that men are not gang raped? that i cant understand what it would be like for either male or female?

Maybe you just needed to hear that to understand i`m able to understand more than you think i or other men do or can?.

On the contrary, my remark was simple that your statement to “grin and bear it” was indicative of a decent man who is incapable of perpetrating that sort of crime; hence you have no true understanding of it. I’m not saying that you are ignorant of what gang rape is; but unless you have been involved in a gang rape (whether as perpetrator, victim, or the one who has to pick of the pieces) you don’t have a real grasp of the depravity involved. I hope you never do. I’m not speaking of common knowledge, but the stuff that gives you nightmares. I was simply stating that as an honorable man, you do not have that intimate knowledge. Had you been female, I would have called you an honorable woman.

As i said the victim doesn`t have to be just female and even if it were,that doesn`t mean i cannot understand what a vile act that must be for her to go through or live with.

This is why I simply said victim. Men and women who have never had intimate contact with this crime have no true understanding of the impact. It’s like the difference between hearing that a person died violently and actually witnessing the death.

Thats obvious Dark Elf,avoiding it should be first and foremost.

Good, we agree.

But in the gang situation where one could find themselves in, I stand by my advice not to attack as in the one on one situation that I explained,Otherwise the part in which I bolded above would be very likely.
You will have a better chance of survival,to live and fight another day.which would then make your statement correct.("very well could")

I, personally, would prefer death. If someone told me to get in his car or he would shoot me, I’d tell him to shoot me. There are some things that I just don’t feel that physical survival is worth.

Observation is good advice DE,but take Katrina for example,that situation wasn`t very long and yet rapes were happening in that sports dome after a couple of days or so.

Now exaggerate that crisis/disaster long term with no order,it would be extremely hazardous for anyone anywhere.One might be in the wild and their camp fire is spotted they maybe a sleep ect.Pretty hard to remain undetected while detecting everyone else in the vicinity.

Which is why my husband and I have chosen our area for sit x survival. If sit x takes place before we are able to get to our area, we face a tougher struggle. But we will not stay in heavily populated areas. Our site was chosen for its hostile environment. Most perpetrators of crime are more interested in taking the easy prey. For females on their own, the risk is greater. Perps count on the fact that most people are truly unaware of their own surroundings. I would never blame a victim for their own victimization. However, I have avoided being victimized simply by paying attention to what was going on around me.

Anyway, I was not trying to belittle your knowledge or understanding. It was meant as a compliment.

Originally posted by darkelf
my remark was simple that your statement to “grin and bear it”

Ahhh!! Dark Elf and Whitewave now i understand what has upset you both and its my stupid phrase "grin and bear it" its the grin part.

Apologies to all for that it was an unthoughtful thing to say "grin" I doubt male or female that there are many on the planet who could do that,because honestly i didn`t think,i just used the first phrase I could think of,I should have at least put "for the want of a better phrase".

This is why I simply said victim. Men and women who have never had intimate contact with this crime have no true understanding of the impact. It’s like the difference between hearing that a person died violently and actually witnessing the death.

Well I`ve witnessed horrific death and had to clean up a few of them afterwards,I`ve had to talk to people trapped in car accidents while their loved ones were beside them either dead or with blood all over them and unconscious whist reassuring them everything is going to be ok.If anyone thinks thats an easy thing to do,well your better than me,it was the hardest thing.

Thing is I didn`t have to be in the situation to know it would be horrific,same goes for the rape victim.Thing is all women or men for that matter will react from it to different degree`s.

To some it may destroy them for the rest of their lives,to others they will find strength to look from above it and live with the scar.

I, personally, would prefer death. If someone told me to get in his car or he would shoot me, I’d tell him to shoot me. There are some things that I just don’t feel that physical survival is worth.

Thats a choice thats made by all at the time,I`m not questioning your belief you would,though I will say I hope that decision is one you never have to make,to see.

Same can be said for myself in the my belief that I would help.Its just I know I would die for those close to me,I would be broken in losing them and if they throw their lives away and not tried to survive a dire situation made worst by fighting back violently in a gang situation.

Is why I know those around you guys would feel your loss,and they would not have wanted you to make the situation worse,so`s that you survived.

Do you think your Husbands sons daughters etc would be happier knowing you decided to die rather than try and live through it for them?

Which is why my husband and I have chosen our area for sit x survival. If sit x takes place before we are able to get to our area, we face a tougher struggle. But we will not stay in heavily populated areas. Our site was chosen for its hostile environment.

Kudos to you both, we are still scratching our heads on a good location.But its an excellent point you make and one I have been thinking about a lot about is whether you can get to the location depending on what and how things happen.

Anyway, I was not trying to belittle your knowledge or understanding.

Thats ok,I think I did that all by myself."grin"

[edit on 30-1-2007 by gps777]

Apolgy accepted and no hard feelings

Originally posted by gps777
Well I`ve witnessed horrific death and had to clean up a few of them afterwards,I`ve had to talk to people trapped in car accidents while their loved ones were beside them either dead or with blood all over them and unconscious whist reassuring them everything is going to be ok.If anyone thinks thats an easy thing to do,well your better than me,it was the hardest thing.

Thing is I didn`t have to be in the situation to know it would be horrific,same goes for the rape victim.Thing is all women or men for that matter will react from it to different degree`s.

As someone who has witnessed the depravity that people can perpetrate on others, I understand the dangers that many will face due to being unprepared for sit x. I can only hope that the horrors you have witnessed have helped to prepare you for what you may witness during the same. That is the whole point of this thread, at least now. It is also why I felt that your suggestions be faced rather than shrugged off or argued. I know what I would do if faced with that situation. I have far too many scars to endure that which I choose not to. But you bring up valid points. I would have to weigh the situation before choosing my actions.

Not all rapists are of the brutal variety. Sometimes “going along” is the better advice. But how can you tell if your attacker is a brutal predator or just a common rapist? Ted Bundy was described as a very nice man. His victims had no clue as to their captor’s intentions until it was too late. I would hope that at my age, I would not be considered a target. Yet, I’ve known of cases where women much older than I am have been brutally raped and killed.

As I stated earlier, in a one-on-one encounter, I have a better opportunity to prevail against my attacker. But I have to determine under what circumstances I will allow my self to survive and what ones I will willingly give my life. Although it is one I also hope to never have to make, it is one that I need to dissect thoroughly.

Is why I know those around you guys would feel your loss,and they would not have wanted you to make the situation worse,so`s that you survived.

Do you think your Husbands sons daughters etc would be happier knowing you decided to die rather than try and live through it for them?

The question on most loved ones minds after a death of this sort is “Did they suffer?” I would rather my husband and children know that I was killed quickly than for them to know the details of my rape, torture, and eventual death. In a group or gang situation, I don’t feel that I have any other choice. If I could run, I would. If I could get away, I would try. I would never give in and would most likely die fighting. I have no fear of death, but I do not wish to succumb to a tortuous one. I came to a point in my life where I chose to NEVER be victimized again. I know my strengths and limitations. I know how to judge my opponent and have the patience to wait for my opportunity. I also know how to not put myself into a situation where I cannot get out. These are the uncomfortable questions we should be asking ourselves and discussing with our loved ones. You brought up a valid possibility and I will not shrink from the discomfort of discussion.

Originally posted by darkelf
Apolgy accepted and no hard feelings

I think we are nearing the end of the extreme scenario on the discussion of rape and survival of it.

But how can you tell if your attacker is a brutal predator or just a common rapist? Ted Bundy was described as a very nice man.

As in the original advice I gave which I think started this uncomfortable difficult discussion,I was hinting at in situation X that you would always carry a weapon of some sort.Knife gun somewhere on your person,so it wouldn`t matter if it were a Ted Bundy type so long as he didn`t know you were carrying.

Once you were able to understand your in great danger and maybe he had forced you to the ground,use your femininity,then surprise the HELL out of him before he had the chance of doing what he wanted.If you struggled at the very first forcing you down he will more than likely pin you to protect himself.Then where are you,if you cant reach the weapon.

The question on most loved ones minds after a death of this sort is “Did they suffer?” I would rather my husband and children know that I was killed quickly than for them to know the details of my rape, torture.

I dont want you to take it all personally sorry DE,read all what i`ve written as advice in general for all women or even men included.If you think I`m directing it squarely at you you may have nightmares etc.

The thing is in this most extreme scenario that one finds themself in situation X and in the extreme circumstance of a gang intent of rape,the only way out of not suffering is to shoot or stab yourself to death before anything happens.The victim will suffer.

Ones family will always hope they didn`t suffer but they may never know,the person may have just gone off hunting and didn`t return,but my advice is if you want to be around for them dont attack as in the one on one,(no grin) bear it anyway you can,to maybe get away later,maybe one might die trying to bear it.But what choice do you have.

If I could run, I would. If I could get away, I would try.

Thats a given for all of us.

I would never give in and would most likely die fighting.

Dont! give in,but dont give them an excuse to kill you.

I have no fear of death

Belief in God will do that to ya

but I do not wish to succumb to a tortuous one.

We cannot determine how we go,we can go in a torturous way regardless of anybody elses involvement.In situation X many of us will suffer agony that many like to think we will avoid just trying to survive.

I came to a point in my life where I chose to NEVER be victimized again. I know my strengths and limitations.
I know how to judge my opponent and have the patience to wait for my opportunity. I also know how to not put myself into a situation where I cannot get out.

No need telling me your strong I knew a long time ago.

These are the uncomfortable questions we should be asking ourselves and discussing with our loved ones. You brought up a valid possibility and I will not shrink from the discomfort of discussion.

Your tops DE

DE the reason I did go down this line is because in situation X in the worst case scenario there will not be anyone to control law and order small example Katrina,those of us who believe in God will have our consciences and prayers to guide our actions and also because how a lot of women treat males from day to day as seen on TV and such as in getting away with verbally abusive language and violence eg slapping faces or kicking in the nether regions towards men they barely know or some they know and men simply accepting it,will not work so well for them in that situation,the way a lot of it happens today.

Think of those with no belief in anything with nothing holding them back,is how it will be in the end times or just an extreme situation X.

Though I also know my limits because I have thought about this type of scenario and I think in some circumstances such as the ones we have talked about I think I would/could commit murder.I hope not,I hope I would just mame them,but it could eventuate in them dying.


[edit on 30-1-2007 by gps777]

gps,
I apologize if I offended you. My response to your advice was not intended as a personal attack but a passionate disagreement with the "grin and bear it" wording. I, too, am unafraid of dying but would rather my (grown) children not have to come see me in some nursing home in a permanent vegetative state from having been beaten severely in a gang rape situation. A physical molestation carries a lot of variables in which a potential victim has many options for how they can/will respond to that particular "contact opportunity". And you're right. Fighting to the death may not always be the best option. Depends.
I went to a neighborhood watch seminar in which the speaker (a local police officer) offered advice to the mostly female audience that if we were ever in such a situation to "not fight back, just give in and then call the police and fill out a report". That was terribly unsatisfactory advice and nearly caused a riot in the group. Poor guy. He was just reciting what he'd been taught to say at these kinds of functions.
I think most honorable men who treat women with respect find it difficult to comprehend the savagery and brutality that their fellows can inflict on "the weaker sex". In no way did I mean to imply that you had not given sufficient consideration to your response before posting but only that if you had been in such a scenario (or had a loved one molested) that you need not reveal that here, only to consider how my response that followed would jibe with your consideration. Sometimes the fingers fly over the keyboard faster than the brain weighs how it will sound. Without facial expression, voice inflection, body language, etc. the subtle innuendos of conversation are sometimes lost in translation.
As to Diserias question: I have no military experience but was married to a military man. I have male friends that are veterans and it has been my observation that wearing a uniform of the military does not guarantee a military mind behind it. Many join the forces to get an education and abhore the idea that they may actually be called upon to kill another person. Also, there are many "military minded" (militant) people who wouldn't be caught dead (no pun intended) in the armed forces. In crisis situations, history has taught us that people will respond with whatever character, fortitude, and training they have. Self-defense is a mindset. I personally believe that it's a mindset that CAN be taught but is mostly innate.

In a Situation X....I dont forsee a problem finding women who will get on their backs or knees for as little as a shot or the appearence of some vague future comfort level. Pardon the crudity levels but this is how I see it. I cannot imagine having the need to "rape " a woman in this type of event.
THe facts are that right now ..in good times there is not a problem finding this very type of woman who will do exactly this for a easier time for themselves and their children.
In either scenerio I find this type of woman and much of what passes for men to be a huge liability.

If I were stuck with people on a deserted island all I would have to do is build a chair, a bed, or a roof over my head to have women flocking to me for comfort levels built by someone elses hands and commitment levels for themselves and thier children. A whole host of "tools/techniques would be put into service to accomplish this....gaining access to comfort levels built by someone else.

I speak here not only of women ..but men too..who themselves dont have any real life skills outside of operating a remote controller and a telephone keypad. I know lots of them.

Are all women and men like this..no they are not..but it is much more prevalent than ever spoken.

I feel the need to point out something of importance to me ..good times as well as bad.



Whitewave...most violence in this and other countrys is violence against men..men by men..not against women.

THe very sad state of affairs is that socially we decry violence against women far more than we decry violence against men. Men are also injured and killed on the job far more than women with hardly a wimper in the social consciousness.

This is a very unique double standard. It is also very politically expedient for a politician looking to acquire votes. This social double standard is to me institutionalized sanctioned rape by the social structure..rape of the male. THe male by his inherent ignorance and natural dumbness is party to his own rape.

I have had numerous opportunitys to see this played out ..both on and off the job. I call this male expendability and disposability. I have little intrest in it.

Dont get me wrong here..I dont approve of violence against women..I just think much of it and the political way it is carried out is a double standard...made merchandize of by the political system. It is fraud for votes.
Women should know how to protect themselves..by a host of techniques..passive as well as active. I have no problem with this...even unto death. It is thier responsibility ...to themselves, and their familys.
Women need to be "armed" physically and mentally with the knowlege of how to do this. No problems here on this from me. This is individual responsibility. I am all for this.

I will "not" be sitting in front of the boob tube watching the super bowel game this weekend.(Social grooming/conditioning for more male expendability and disposialability/rape) If I am off work I will be doing some badly needed shopping/stocking up..after kick off time when the road/store traffic takes an astonishing drop. This is a great time to shop.


Thanks to all for thier posts,
Orangetom

OT,
I agree with your assessment of the double standard in the workplace and among society in general. There may be a perfectly good reason for this doublethink based on certain realities. Let me see if I can express this.
In my opinion, women are equal in life but not in function. This is based on the reality that a man my age, my height, my weight will probably be stronger than me. He will be ABLE to function differently than me in similar circumstances.
Some laws are based on "the law of the reasonable man", ie, what would a reasonable man do in this same circumstance? Many women who kill their abusive husbands/boyfriends get hung by this law. A reasonable man getting beat up by some jerk would slug it out with him and then probably buy him a beer afterward. Men are more equally matched to slug it out with each other. Men, by nature, tend to be more competetive, prone to aggressive resolutions, direct in their confrontations with others. Women, on the other hand, are seldom an equal match physically for a slug fest with a man, tend to be more manipulative in their resolution tactics, indirect and discreet in their confrontations (passive-aggressive rather than aggressive). That's why women will bide their time until you're passed out drunk then set your bed on fire. The courts see this as against the "reasonable man" law although they fail to see it as the actions of a perfectly reasonable woman.
This is a broad generalization, of course, and does not always apply, especially to the women of today (or men for that matter).
The need of some men to physically subdue another human being and exert their will in the most dehumanizing manner has nothing to do with wanting or getting basic needs met. A woman may be willing to barter the comforts of her lap for the comforts of your watertight roof but that is still "substance for substance" or "value for value". Until this generation that arrangement was pretty much how relationships worked between men and women. I don't have a problem with that, per se, as long as both genders realize that the other is valuable and equal in their humanity.
Our functions in life are greatly determined by our physical abilities. Our attitudes and behaviors are very much determined by our functional capacities. For example: as a man, your attitude toward sex will be very much different than a womans' because you don't have the ability to get pregnant, miscarry, die in childbirth, get knocked up and abandoned, lose your good figure (marketability) due to "baby fat", etc. Therefore your behavior in that regard will be different than a womans'. (again, this generation may be the exception to the milleniums long rule).
It is pointless to try reasoning with an unreasonable man (or woman). In situation x, a woman's "wiles" will probably only get her taken advantage of even more by such unreasonable beasts. She better hope she's got more than that to work with or she will become a party favor. A woman who can pull her own weight in the area of manual labor and has a variety of skills upon which to draw (first and foremost-self defense) has a much better chance of surviving (even in peace times). That's why I taught my daughters to fight/wrestle/use pressure points and vulnerable areas as well as cooking, gardening, etc. My oldest daughter got married young (18) and said, "my husband will protect me" and didn't want to continue her training. I told her that his honor is a valuable shield to her but that he's not bulletproof and once he's taken out, she's easy pickins. Plus, she could keep her husband alive if she knew how to shoot/fight. She might be called upon to save HIM. Plus, the element of surprise is always in your favor. I think it would be quite a surprise to a group of men intent on ill will if the woman of the group was to fire the first shot or throw the first punch.
What say ye?

Originally posted by whitewave
gps,
I apologize if I offended you.

Whitewave imo you shouldn`t apolizise for something unless you see something to apologize for,I wasn`t offended I was a little angry,yes but its cool now as I know I shouldn`t have put "grin"in the post,I must also admit that was posted after coming home from a psychically hard days work and I was topped up on testosterone because of it,and when I read some part my eye`s grew in size,see we men have traits that get in our better way just different than womens.

From when I posted the initial post giving the advice, it didn`t until this morning dawn on me as my Mr`s and myself were talking of the topic,what dawned was....

I stand by what I said because I honestly believe it to be best(and it wasn`t told to me or had I heard it elsewhere) but what dawned on me was that I would have to do the same as what I`m expecting or hoping she would if ever that situation happened.Bear it for the best outcome.

Let me clear that better...

If she found herself in that position (gang) and listened to my advice to best try and survive to not violently fight back as in the one on one situation,so`s to have the best chance of surviving it...

Then say I come along and see whats happening and especially to whom,my knee jerk reaction may well be suicidal,any female or male in a dire situation who is suffering at the hands of a mob of animals would of cause want to be rescued but not at the cost of their loved ones lives also, if she`s doing her damnedest to survive it for them.

So Ive learnt something here,that I will have to think first and not rely on knee jerk reactions which could well be suicidal and if I have the resources or back up to deal with the mob then thats what will happen and if not I`ll also have to "bear it" myself.For our best outcome.

So the same advice should also be to your partners or loved ones etc to not throw away their lives.

I think most honorable men who treat women with respect find it difficult to comprehend the savagery and brutality that their fellows can inflict on "the weaker sex".

But OK,dont underestimate our ability to put ourselves in others shoes and it doesn`t have to be about the weaker or stronger issue.

Example a 20 odd year old "meat head" pours petrol on a bunch of kittens and sets them alight for laughs and giggles.

That doesn`t mean anybody cannot do the same,one would only need to remove all moral thought /love/kindness/care/better judgment/denial of self (is there a word that fits? help here I`m poorly educated)etc, and replace it with do what ever you damn well want and feel like.

It doesn`t mean one cannot understand the agony and horror those cats are going through just because I`m not a cat,if they were to survive such treatment they would need a lot of love to regain their health and trust of any human being and of cause thats possible,that they would be grateful in the end,they were still alive and to have such good company.

And thats not to mention women can inflict just the same amount of brutality also.

(by the way I`m not really into cats but i do care for one,love my dog though)

In no way did I mean to imply that you had not given sufficient consideration to your response before posting but only that if you had been in such a scenario

I have had to suffer many years of abuse myself just not sexual,similar symptoms and scars.

Abuse is abuse.

The difference is I could have used that abuse as an excuse to give up or abuse myself with substances etc until there`s hardly anything left to save,as so many do.

The problem however wasn`t my own,problems were being put on myself because of someone elses problems,that is something that most of us have to bear many times in our lives,life sux a lot of the time and so do many many people in it.

Though if we give up because of what they do to us personally because one thinks they cannot handle anymore of the crap or live with any more,they are wrong,we can bear so much and especially if one has loved ones in their lives.

Sometimes the fingers fly over the keyboard faster than the brain weighs how it will sound. Without facial expression, voice inflection, body language, etc. the subtle innuendos of conversation are sometimes lost in translation.

Totally agreed and I should add that regardless of this barrier of text communication I can and do get a lot wrong anyway.Example,I`ll edit your above quote which would also be correct ....

Sometimes the mouth flies off faster than the brain weighs how it will sound. With facial expression, voice inflection, body language, etc. the subtle innuendos of conversation are a confirmation that ones mouth flies off faster than brain should allow.

Well its not common but can be sometimes.

Cheers whitewave.

Originally posted by orangetom1999
In a Situation X....I dont forsee a problem finding women who will get on their backs or knees for as little as a shot or the appearence of some vague future comfort level. Pardon the crudity levels but this is how I see it.

G`day there OT!

Of cause this is also true and not in anyway limited to a lot females.Males would demean themselves in different ways though just to get by and survive.

But most may not even know its demeaning to themselves.

I cannot imagine having the need to "rape " a woman in this type of event.
THe facts are that right now ..in good times there is not a problem finding this very type of woman who will do exactly this for a easier time for themselves and their children.

Well in the Katrina Sports Dome raped and sexually molested women, I dont think those perpetrators were thinking the women wanted material comforts from them or anything for that matter.

Lawlessness will bring these types out for a free for all,no doubt about it at all.

Because of the disorder these scum bags took clear advantage of the situation.Some Aussie guys on holiday at the time caught in Katrina and staying at the Dome stopped one rape from happening,GO! Aussies! or anyone for that matter.

In such a large gathering one person can stop a perpetrator no problems,one person can help and stop a perp in the wilderness,one person will have a lot of trouble stopping a gang without back up,they will feed like a pack of sharks.

It will be 100 times worse in an extreme sitx imo than those stuck in the Dome.

If I were stuck with people on a deserted island all I would have to do is build a chair, a bed, or a roof over my head to have women flocking to me for comfort levels built by someone elses hands and commitment levels for themselves and their children. A whole host of "tools/techniques would be put into service to accomplish this....gaining access to comfort levels built by someone else.

true,but hey thats life and it doesn`t mean that a women who cannot see beyond that level will not see beyond that level with a decent man eventually.

Are all women and men like this..no they are not..but it is much more prevalent than ever spoken.

Agreed OT

THe very sad state of affairs is that socially we decry violence against women far more than we decry violence against men. Men are also injured and killed on the job far more than women with hardly a wimper in the social consciousness.

This is a very unique double standard. It is also very politically expedient for a politician looking to acquire votes. This social double standard is to me institutionalized sanctioned rape by the social structure..rape of the male. THe male by his inherent ignorance and natural dumbness is party to his own rape.

I have to quote this in its entirety because its all spot on,though you already know I appreciated your insights into these matters on the conspiracy against men and fathers thread.Where I think its more a conspiracy against the family unit.

Thanks to all for thier posts
Orangetom

Same to you OT.

Originally posted by gps777
Hehe,yes though I could also tell of phrases to use for womens problems that males put up with.

Or is it that I just got home from another hard days work?

My favorite is “Why is it called PMS? Because Mad Cow Disease has already been taken.” Just remember, you brought up testosterone.

Not sure if I like being compared with an ape,the difference is one man can dominate a mob with the right equipment.Can an ape?

They do. The right equipment, in this situation, is social structure. When the younger and/or weaker refuses to be submissive, he is attacked by the dominant ape. This will result in the death or banishment of one of the apes (the loser). If the non-submissive loses, he is either killed or vanquished from the group. If the dominate ape loses, the winner becomes the dominate one. It is just a part of their social structure.

Agreed,basically thats how it is,although not all of us are animals,some of us will become animals again,and many already are to begin with.

Actually, we are all animals. We just happen to have a different type of intelligence and a spirituality that other animals don’t possess. We also have a better reasoning capacity. Unfortunately, many people fail to utilize it. Survival is a basic need that will cause many to revert to their basic animalistic nature.

Frail people on the other hand as in the elderly and disabled etc.Is a very hard one,this isn`t one we personally have to contemplate,though contemplate I will.

If someone is in need of constant care they in the animal world would not survive,they would not survive long in the wild without proper medication care/assistance and exposure to the environment.

So either they die alone or with you,maybe they will die with you sooner,but I would rather them die with their loved ones than to leave them behind to fend for themselves,even if their burden was detrimental on our survival I would have to look after our lives first and if that resulted in their lives ending sooner,so be it.

I lost both of my parents almost a year ago. Their age and health would have created a tremendous hardship on anyone trying to care for them in a sit x scenario. I am sure that they would much rather die than to survive at the possible cost of their children’s survival.

This is a main reason to witness and share John 3:16 to then be given reason and the tools to do so.

I agree. However, one can clearly see from reading in the threads relating to religion, there are a very large number of folks who wish to have nothing to do with this enlightenment.

Christ saves,if it wasn`t for that fact I think I would have died a loooong time ago in my life.

Because when I look back at the things I`ve lived through unscaved,its more than a minor miracle that I`m still here to me.

Me too, bro.


Edited to say :

Me too, bro.


Or in your case,
Me too, mate!

[edit on 2/1/2007 by darkelf]

Originally posted by darkelf
My favorite is “Why is it called PMS? Because Mad Cow Disease has already been taken.” Just remember, you brought up testosterone.

Trying hard here DE to stay out of this conversation as it can quickly turn ugly.

Still trying.....

M u s t f i g h t the urge.

C an t h a ng o n any longer


Thats classic,but i`ll still refain.

They do. The right equipment, in this situation, is social structure. When the younger and/or weaker refuses to be submissive, he is attacked by the dominant ape.

Yes I know,what I meant was a frail(weaker)human male or female can dominate a mob with a shot gun for instance.A weaker older or younger ape cannot.

Actually, we are all animals. We just happen to have a different type of intelligence and a spirituality

Its this spirituality that separates us from the animals,without it we can still be intelligent animals.

We also have a better reasoning capacity. Unfortunately, many people fail to utilize it. Survival is a basic need that will cause many to revert to their basic animalistic nature.

Yes and is what I said though not as clear.

I lost both of my parents almost a year ago. Their age and health would have created a tremendous hardship on anyone trying to care for them in a sit x scenario. I am sure that they would much rather die than to survive at the possible cost of their children’s survival.

Sorry to hear of your loss DE I`d bet they were great people and parents.

Sure they would want that,rather than be a burden,though sometimes we as their children have or had to say No! this is how it is going to be.

I agree. However, one can clearly see from reading in the threads relating to religion, there are a very large number of folks who wish to have nothing to do with this enlightenment.

And of coarse DE and its getting worse,we would not be any different than that if it weren`t for knocking on the right door with the right heart.

If one wants it with all their being and willing to die for it,they will get their proof,until then we`ll always be nutters to them.So I dont or should I say should not blame them for it.

But it is just more signs of the times.

Me too, bro.


Or in your case,
Me too, mate!

yeah aint it cool that we can pick our friends but we`re stuck with our family

[edit on 1-2-2007 by gps777]