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Woman's Survival

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posted on Jan, 13 2007 @ 06:14 PM

what do other women think.....

Two sports bras at the same time. It sounds funny, but it really does work.


posted on Jan, 13 2007 @ 08:53 PM
yeah, we had a cold front come into oklahoma yesterday. little snow. we always get ice even if no snow. only 2 problems so far: o'reillys is out of deicer/ice scrapers and people who don't know how to drive on ice. hair dryer works swell on defrosting windshield (good for warming up the sheets before you get into bed at night too) and bad drivers can mostly be avoided.

i carry a bag of fertilizer &/or sand in my car in case i get stuck. fertilizer works just as well as salt (salt was sold out too).

my mother would faint if she knew but as a teenager i would take the car out to the sears parking lot in the icy weather and do "donuts" in their parking lot. good practice for driving on icy roads and gives you a feel for how to make the turns.

i'm considered "essential personnel" and CAN'T call in due to weather. there were several people ahead of me at a stop light that was on an incline. when the light turned green no one could get their car to start up the hill and everyone was just spinning their wheels and rolling backwards. i let mine roll back, angling in to someone's yard and got some traction on the grass. pretty soon i had a whole line of people behind me using these poor people's yard to be able to get up the hill and through the light. there's always a solution. (course i'm going to have to be a gardener this spring and fix the rut i left in their yard).

thanks for the info on mooncups. looks uncomfortable but i guess a lot of things will be uncomfortable if SHTF.

yes, women can be dropped with a kick between the legs but it's a much smaller target to hit than on a man. i've never kicked a man in the groin ever since i got dropped (accidentally in sparring) with a well-placed kick. you really do see stars-right before you go blind and pass out! lol.

there was a ridiculous fashion once where large breasted women bound their breasts to "squash them down" so as to look fashionably small. cuts into your ability to breathe-not a good idea if you need to run. large breasts are a strain on your upper back; cause neck and shoulder muscles to be constantly tight. can get a breast reduction but the double sports bras sound like a better idea. i don't have that concern so i haven't given it much thought. i did read once (not sure how reliable the info) that one thing that all breast cancer victims have in common is the use of underwires in their bras. of course, with the prevalence of underwire bras on the market, it's almost guaranteed that ALL women have worn underwires at some point. they're good support but sports bras are more confortable.

posted on Jan, 13 2007 @ 09:12 PM

Originally posted by Aimless Searcher

what do other women think.....

Two sports bras at the same time. It sounds funny, but it really does work.


As a very large breasted woman, I agree. Two sports bras have the support of one underwire and the comfort of the sports bra. Plus, some of the newer ones allow for the evaporation of sweat.

posted on Jan, 15 2007 @ 02:42 AM
I've read this thread with a great deal of interest, cuz I'm just starting to learn about survival tips and such. Which brings me to one point I'd like to make and a couple of questions or so.

Seems that many posters are assuming that a woman has 'her man' to protect her from the evils of situation X. Well... I don't, and I betcha there's many women in my position, be it choice or whatever else. My ex I haven't seen in 20 years, and in any case, he's been hiding in them thar hills in West Virginia to avoid child support. And besides, (much like the male partner described by one female poster in here earlier, who was running off to the tent while she stood with knife in hand), that would be the way my ex would be in situation X. Also, I'm not a trusting type, given my past experiences. Am not a 'people person' either anymore, much prefer the company of my dachshund over human-types anyday. I do have three young adult sons, one is at a tech-college in Florida, and two live here in Nebraska but are 2 hours away, where there are actually some jobs to be had. And I like that they are close by, yet if/when situation X strikes, I don't know that we'll be able to reach each other very easily.

Soooooooooooo... What's a woman alone supposed to do? I mean, I'm very independent, have life skills, figure I can take care of myself as best as possible. Yet if it's necessary to be out of my home and on the run, as is a certain possibility, I suppose it would be best to try and find some sort of group of others doing the same thing and join in. Who to trust? Where to find them? While I'm making a hard copy of things I'll need in situation X, getting those things together and handy isn't what concerns me the most. Seems like when I do talk to others about being prepared for anything that might come up in the future, people just give me a look like they think I'm becoming a paranoid lunatic. Any ideas on how to actually FIND a "group" of folks like so many refer to in here, who would be good to be with in situation X?????


posted on Jan, 15 2007 @ 11:07 AM
Not on my watch,

There are numerous assumptions made here ..malen and female.

The decisions for the prudent in abilitys would be to plan for both scenerios...flight and also staying put at your home.

Slow and steady accumulation of materials and planning would be in line with this prudence. Obviously thier are budget considerations.
Training yourself with the thinking and abilitys to do without the trappings of civilization would be another.

Myself I am not so concerned with the end of the world scenerios as I am the natural disaster types of which happened in New Orleans. It was immediately obvious that so few people were prepared and relied on others to provide them with the daily necessitys. Very bad choice. That local government to me was some kind of dumb in New Orleans packing those people in that dome. Whatever evacuation plan they had they were not able to enforce. Obviously it snowballed.

I do not have much respect for a government which can make plans to spend millions and milllions on a dome and entertainment drivel but not have a workable evacuation plan....especially in a city known to be below sea level.

I do not delude myself to think that this local government would be any better nor count on them to be of any help. Nor the State and Federal Government either.

Nevertheless...prudence would indicate that you plan for both occurences.
You dont have to break the bank to do so..just careful planning over time. Do this whether you have the help of a mate or not.

As to people who might think you are I have stated before..they can P.... Off!!! YOu dont owe them anything. Just remember what happened to those people in New Orleans counting on the governments to help them ..Local,State, as well as Federal. You prepare for yourself and dont worry what others think. If you never have to use the goods for which you have prepared ..consider yourself blessed. If you are not prepared...well....You understand that too.

As to joining a group or accquiring a mate..this requires discretion too. It is up to you to develope the skills to do so. To effeciently weed out the wildlife.

I am listening to the weather reports and the news ..hearing about bad weather and high seas out in California now. Pretty unusual weather we are having in the USA for the last few weeks. I am wondering if it will wax worse as the winter continues. Also wondering how many people have prepared for a loss of electricity for which we so take for granted here in America.
Here in Virginia it is supposed to get much colder next week. I am going through my cold weather gear, cleaning and doing inventory and washing it. My prefered winter technique is to layer up and have good gloves,socks, and boots.
Though I have a truck and two cars...I ride my moped most of the year some 8 miles to work. Insulated coveralls in the winter and layers of coats and snowmobile gloves. I save most of my gasoline for weekends and taking care of big jobs. THese are just simple adaptations I have made here locally. I realize most people must navigate much further to work than myself..but this works out well for me.


posted on Jan, 15 2007 @ 10:19 PM
Thank you Orangetom, I'll keep on keeping on with adding to my store of essentials as I can. Like you say, better to have it than not. I was flabbergasted at the lack of preparation in New Orleans, not so much the folks who live there, but those who are s'posed to be ready to care for those in emergencies. Which just made me realize even more how important it is for each American to prepare for ourselves, as best as we each can.

Here in Nebraska, we are used to snow of course, what we aren't used to is the 'lack' of snow this time of year. Verrrrrrrry wierd weather across the US these days. We finally got our snow, all at once though, so currently are in a 'snow emergency' situation. Which isn't unusual and in a strange way feels good to be dealing with since it's the norm for this time of year anyway.

How odd it must be for those dealing with having NO electricity and no hope of it returning soon. Most Americans have become lax in being prepared for the occasional power outage, storm, etc. So dependent we've become on being able to run down to the corner store or at the very least the dreaded Wally World. For those of us who are used to having at least 3 days of emergency supplies stored for the occasional snow emergency days this time of year, being prepared when it hits isn't a problem.

What would be a problem for many is if/when situation X arises and the storage of a few days worth of supplies is gone, and the corner store or Wally World has been depleted. Those who now think we've gone off our rockers by stockpiling essentials in case situation X happens, will likely be the same ones knocking on our doors for a drink of water and a cracker with peanut butter! Providing of course, we still have doors to knock on...

Which brings me to another concern... Those of us who are stockpiling essentials also need to find a way to protect our storage from those who may decide that our stockpile is their new 'corner store'. I'll be happy to share some, yet thoughts of what can happen in an emergency (New Orleans comes to mind), where frenzied looting occurs, gives me the heebie-jeebies.

Another concern... I have a heart condition, am taking pres. meds for that. Missing one dose is enough to make my heart begin acting up mildly. I don't want to think about what missing several doses will do to it. And since I rather doubt the local pharmacy will be delivering if/when a major emergency occurs, I really need to figure out how to prepare for that. Short of adding to my stockpile a coffin to just lay down in.

Ok, enuff gloom and doom, gotta go play a game and lighten up.


posted on Jan, 16 2007 @ 07:29 AM
Wow!!! Unlike many in this country you seem to be well aware of the rudiments of having to go at least three days on your own and with your own stockpiles. That is great.
I would however ..recommend you plan for at least a week. Three days seems like a long time and it is without electricity. But I think in the future it will be more like a week.

LOL LOL...the dreaded Wally World!!! Yes...I understand. Wally World is very convenient around here but I must tell you...Wally World or not I do not enjoy the "Shopping Experience." I go to get what I want and leave. I dont spend alot of time shopping. If I need to research it enough I will do so on line. Im also afraid that around here the local Wally World has hired the lowest common denominator in help and staff. Not a very long attention span with many of them and it shows. I select certain hours to go there and avoid other rush hour times.
I have actually gone to the one way across town and sometimes across the river rather than this one. Locally they have acquired quite a reputation at this Wally World.

As to Ice and Snow..I will remind the readers that here in Southern Virginia many cannot drive on rain..much less Ice and Snow. Good that you folks out in Nebraska are more familiar with this situation.

Electricity however is another topic. And like you ...though I have made arrangements with two generators I am concerned with the tendency of the local wildlife to abscond with ones goods and materials. I have sunk a 1.5 inch pipe in the ground with a sledge hammer and to this welded a u-shaped rod. Into this rod I weave a heavy chain and then double bolt this to my generator. It will help and I consider this more secure than a lock and chain.
There are other provisions made and planned for keeping my property private in nature. However, If I must flee this area I cannot worry about those propertys.

Something else of which most people are not aware and in dire emergencys will not be made public. Every effort will be made to keep the public unawares of this provision.
This Federal Orgainzation called FEMA. IN dire emergencys they by executive order have the authority to enter your property and remove whatever provisions you have stored and redistribute them as they deem fit. This usually translates into redistribute politicially. THis is not something they are wont to let the general public know. What I am saying is in dire emergencys FEMA will be among the wildlife of which you must concern yourself.

As to your medications for your heart condition. THat is going to be a tough one. I suggest you do some research on this topic as to alternatives.
I suggest finding a way to stockpile some additional medicines or alternatives. Of course you must be aware of the shelf life of these meds.

What I did for my parents before Hurricane Isabelle was to make a special trip to have thier medicines refilled so as they would have ample supplies if things went on over a week. As it was they were without electricity for about 6 days. At my home about 9 days. I took my generator back and forth to their house and then mine later ..overnight. Since then I have acquirred another generator to help with this situation. I have constructed another pole to drive in the ground at their home.
Your medicines are going to be a tough one and will require some thinking and planning.

Dark Elf made a post on another board about someone trying to steal someone elses generator because they made no preparations for such difficultys. I dispise that kind of conduct and entitlement thinking. This same thing happened around here after Hurrican Isabelle. People were coming up in the yards of others homes and stealing generators.
The City even put up a temporary generator at a major intersection to work the red stop lights and someone stole this generator causing accidents. I dispise this kind of parasite.
So many can make plans for the play off games but not for their survival.
Well I suppose we are so affluent today that many delude themselves into the mindset such that the play off games are in fact survival.
Yes this senerio worrys me too.

Hang in there NotOnMyWatch,
Work on those will find a solution,
Ask around on these boards someone will have an idea to help you.


posted on Jan, 16 2007 @ 07:51 AM
Something occured to me that I learned from an older woman I was dating some years back about plants.

I was shocked when she first told me this and applied it to a small cut I had on my hand as a result of doing some honeydoos around her home.
This cut seemed to heal better and faster after a cpuple of applications of this plant ooze.

This plant was called Aloe Vera. She ,however, refered to it as a "Burn Plant." I suspect this plant is known by different names around the country.

Other than this application I have had little experience with this plant. I should probably have a couple around. She most certainly had a green thumb as compared to myself.

My question for the readers here are what exactly are the limitations of this plant and its usage?? Are there other simple plants like this of which you readers are familiar??
I ask because women are usually more well versed in the arena of green thumbs and such applications than are men.


posted on Jan, 17 2007 @ 04:26 PM
You didn't mention what type of heart condition you have. Foxglove is the plant from which digitalis was synthesized but in plant form, the dosage can't be regulated.
I have a serious family history of heart disease (father dropped dead at 41 and never smoked). I began having chest pain in my late 20's and figured that those of us who burn the candle brightly at both ends can't really expect for it to burn a long time. Chest pain got debilitating and i never took any medication for it. Made preparations for a premature death but no preparations for surviving a chronic heart condition. Then i found out about the "eat right for your [blood]type" diet. I jumped right in since it wasn't one of those fad, freaky, dangerous diets and i didn't have to weigh food or count calories. Just had to avoid certain foods that weren't good for my blood type. Took about 2 weeks to get used to shopping differently but the diet isn't hard to stick to. I look at certain foods as poison (to me) and it's pretty easy to avoid them. Haven't had any chest pains since (except during holidays when i cheat a little). Side benefit i hadn't counted on is the total lack of hypoglycemic episodes i used to experience on a daily basis. So, it got rid of chest pains and hypoglycemia.
There's a very useful book about herbs put out by Mosby's called Mosby's handbook of herbs and natural supplements. highly recommend adding that one to the survival kit.

posted on Jan, 17 2007 @ 09:58 PM
Orange Tom,

Aloe Vera is my friend... not that I have a green thumb -- but precisely because I do not have a green thumb! It's a southwestern desert plant, and so can deal with hot and cold, lots of water and no water. (Only thing to worry about is over-watering... which, which me, is not a problem.
) It was mainly used for ta-da! sunburn... which, if you're in the desert, is gonna happen.

It's great for cuts, scraps, burns (sunburn, hot tail pipe, whatever), anything that breaks the skin. (However, I do not know that it is very useful for deep wounds...) It cools the skin, releaves the pain, while keeping the skin moist -- which is very important. Taut, dry skin is a bitch of a pain...

Aloe has *lots* of good information.

If I understand it right, all you need is to take the tip of one of the 'leaves' or shoots (not sure what exactly to call them), and squeeze the juices out. You can take a whole shoot, or several -- just so long as you leave enough for the plant to continue living. (that is, assuming that you actually _want_ it to live...)

As far as planting/taking care of one...
It's a shallow-root plant, so a wide pot is necessary. I've got mine in a mixing bowl, and he seems to be doing quite well. Even grew a new shoot! (meanwhile, my lavender died, and my basil went through a serious 'thinning of numbers'...) Make sure it gets sunlight, and over the winter months you're better off having it close to a heater. (I've got mine right over the radiator.. not on, but about 6 inches above.) Also, *make sure* that the dirt is very dry before watering it again... better to let it dry completely than drown the poor thing. (Besides that, the surface of the dirt can get a yellow/white mold, and that _will_ kill/injure the plant.. any plant, but especially the aloe vera because it's roots are so shallow.)

Not sure if that helps, but it's not a very hard plant to keep alive... especially for us non-green thumb having people! (I've only a smudge of green, so don't think me an expert in plants or anything.)

(Edited to fix link.)

[edit on 17-1-2007 by Diseria]

posted on Jan, 18 2007 @ 07:17 AM
NOMW: Since most women are inherently "prey" in survival situations, my thoughts are to do what most prey does in the wild-hide, blend into environment, stay put. If that doesn't work, get in touch with your inner beast and turn into a rabid, savage predator to defend yourself. I am a single female (middle aged) and I have prepared for both eventualities. Most "survivalists" are too independently minded to be much of the "joiner" mentality. Also, most would consider a woman (especially a woman with kids) to be a liability and not an asset. I used to look for groups to join but gave up when I realized there was a serious lack of worthwhile human beings to join with. Nothing wrong with a female "going it alone". Sorry to say but men will be the biggest threat to a woman in a survival situation. Learn self-defense. Even if there is a man to protect you, don't count on his ability alone. He's liable to be the first one shot if some predatory group decides to "engage" you for your equipment, location or whatever. When it comes to survival, we need to stop thinking in terms of male/female and start thinking in terms of ability/skills. Each individual must use whatever assets, strengths, capabilities they possess and be aware of their own liabilities, limitations in order to survive.

posted on Jan, 18 2007 @ 02:01 PM
This is in regards to self-defense.

I am, have been, in a debate with myself over the notion of me learning self-defense. And, as with most things, I sit on the fence - completely unsure of which side is better, 'more correct'...

One side, my inner beast, says that I should learn it because it's a necessary trait -- fight or flee, survival of the fittest and all that. I understand that in *some* situations it would be necessary, the knowledge deemed worthwhile, to save my own life, or someone else's.


On the other side, I do not want to be responsible for killing or hurting someone. For all intents and purposes, I am a pacifist -- I have never raised my hand in a malicious manner to another human being. To learn self-defense is, in a sense, giving me the capability of killing/hurting someone...
Indeed, it pains my spirit to think of having knowledge of how to hurt someone. The few 'basics' that I have in my head scare me... Barring massive head injury, I cannot unlearn this knowledge once its lodged itself in my brain. (I'm working on erasing commercials, which are completely un-necessary. But I do not think that my inner beast would allow for the self-defensive knowledge to be weeded out.)

I recognize a line between defending oneself, and offending someone else. Likewise, I recognize the line between hurting someone, and simply getting them away, or in a position where they can no longer threaten me. (I was in an Aikido class where the latter line was pointed out to me. I was excited to learn, until the teacher said that we had to learn how to throw people -- I don't mind getting hurt, but I have a serious problem with hurting someone else. Based on that alone, I dropped the class.)

I also recognize that, to some extent (if not entirely), I am weighing morality and survival... which I'm not sure can be truly reckoned with. (Hard Way Jones persists tho...)

I've also been fortunate up to this point, to have never been in a situation that deemed it necessary for having self-defense. (as with my many blessings, i am grateful) But, as my b/f likes to say, that simply means that the chances of such a situation occurring becomes greater and greater over time. I recognize this, and still walk my path (with whatever confidence that I can muster on any particular day).

I constantly ponder various situations, pitting myself against different foes. (I fully admit that any situation may happen... I'm not entirely ignorant.) But the mental scenarios always go two directions - blood-shed, and peaceful. I've never rationally come up with a middle-ground, beyond screaming like a banshee and running like hell (which, by the way, is the only defense that I know I truly possess..).

Does my debate make any sense at all?

Or am I simply in denial? (it wouldn't be the first time, probably won't be the last time...)

posted on Jan, 18 2007 @ 04:07 PM
Thank you both for the information on Herbs and Aloe Vera.
The book on Herbs I have bookmarked from the Amazon book site for future ordering.

The Aloe Vera site I have bookmarked also for future reading. I did not know that there was an aloe vera gel for drinking. This is a new one to me.

My thanks to both of you for this information.

Your concerns about self defense are not without foundation. Fight or Flee...valid concerns for sure.

I will too tell you that I am a pacifist....with certain reservations. I prefer to avoid confrontation if at all possible. I have ,however, learned with the natures of some peoples this is unavoidable. If you do not confront it will be worse the next time. I so wish it could be different but it simply is not.

I am talking about Salt here Diseria. You do know what happens when you pour Salt on a slug...yes???? It is simply that with some peoples you must absolutely let them know without any reservation that you can be salty if pushed. Not sugary and sweet. I am not saying that we are not to be meek and mild. I am merely stating that if necessary we make no doubts about pulling out the salt shaker and letting them have a huge dose on their sluggish tendencys.

In most instances fleeing is the correct course of doubt about it.

I too do not want to be responsible for killing or maiming another. That you know or sense this is a clear indicator that you are a person of conscience. I commend you for this conscience. This is a valid and weighty concern.

I just came from the local Food Lion grocery store. I carried concealed with me my .45 ACP automatic pistol. I was not looking to hurt or kill anyone. Owning a firearm is a responsibility. A huge responsibility. To yourself and others. It is not showmanship and profiling and styling.
I should tell you also that I lived in Japan for three years where I earned a brown belt in Judo and a black belt in Ju Jitsu. This did not prevent me from learning how to use a firearm. I also taught myself from books and other olde timers how to reload ammunition. I actually derive as much pleasure and relaxation from the reloading bench with a good cup of coffee, snack, and/or sandwich as I do the actual target practice at the range. Kind of an odd duck here in this. I know how to reload for many calibers..both rifle and pistol.

By the Aikido they not teach you how to fall and take a fall? This is one of the first items on the menu in Judo classes. How to fall and distribute the weight of a fall across the whole body. It becomes second nature after awhile. I can assure you I have earned the frequent flyer miles here. Many Many hours flying through the air and taking falls. This was my "Hard way Jones" before I got much better at it.

By the way..I like your expression .."Hard way Jones." I'm going to borrow it.

I have used my Judo and Ju Jitsu skills in self defense. Most people dont bother you after that. Especially if they never saw it coming.

So has my younger sister.

Back when she was in High School one of the guys at school used to like to mess with her and get rough. One day he made the mistake of reaching over her to cop a feel. Stupid ...stupid ...Stupid move!!! Especially with my sister! She immediately and instinctively applied a Seonage shoulder throw since this guy was dumb enough to do half of the work for her by reaching wayover her shoulder for the "feel." With Sis...a really stupid thing to do. IN the blink of an eye he went over her shoulder and onto the ground..with his wind completely knocked out of him. Ive done it myself...your feet go from standing on them to the twelve o'clock position straight up in the air to "Bam!!" right on the ground flat on your side!! In the blink of an eye. It was not a big deal to her as she had done this move hundreds of times in the Dojo. But everyone else was speechless! The conversations just broke right down! You know ..those Stephen Spielburg "ET" moments where everyone is standing around with their mouths hanging open in disbelief. I only learned of this about two weeks later from this fellows cousin!! I laughed my head off..knowing my sister. No one in High school messed with her again..male or female. Apparently this story got around fast.

But you see Diseria, my sister had practiced many many hours in the dojo. For all practical purposes the move was completed before anything even happened. It was over. Finished. Only this guy was so dumb he did not know it was over. Doing the actual move was inconsequential. My sister was meek and mild up to this very point in events. She knew exactly where this guy would wind up on the ground. If she wanted she could have followed this up with a choke/strangulation technique or arm lock move. He was so winded it was not necessary. She knew this too in less than a second. She applied the proper amount of Salt for the situation.
Fortunately the most this slug got was winded and a brused ego. She is a brown belt in Judo too.

The point here Diseria..if you determine it so you must not hesitate ..flee or fight..dont hesitate. And then you must live with it.
Grant you now this was not a life risking situation..but it was very effective. No one messed with her after that ..not in high school.

You must develope the technique for using this knowlege and also the discretion of when to use and not use it. This too is called conscience. Also responsibility.

YOu must be absolute certain of your abilitys and responsibilitys here. There are no short cuts in this. This too is Hard Way Jones.

REmember the context of this forum and this are describing survival for you and your family. To lose the provisions and equipment you have accumulated to a bunch or slugs and parasites can mean the difference in life and death. Not just for females but everyone. This will not be a semantic exercise. You will not be able to hit reset on the video game and start over. That is the reality you must keep in mind.

YOur concerns however are valid and for your conscience on this I commend you. Weigh it out carefully but in a real context..not necessarily emotionally but practically...realistically. We will not be gauranteed the choicest morsels from the plate in a survival situation. Which is every day to me.

Thanks again to all,

posted on Jan, 18 2007 @ 05:49 PM

The one time that I was beaten up was in grade skool. I wanted to sit in the back of the bus, and so plopped down with no reservations. In short order, another kid came back and told me that I stole his seat. I told him that the seat was no one's. He then accused me of moving his backpack (which, I guess, fell to the floor well before I got on the bus), which marked that particular seat as his - I ouright denied this.
His response was to punch me in the throat.
And with that, I got to keep the seat.

I went home and told my father, and the first question out of his mouth: "Well, did you hit him back?"

The thought had never occurred to me to return the strike.

I never sat in the back of the bus after that, and I never had another encounter with that kid, or anyone (up to this point) challenging me. I've never had the opportunity to decide to strike back... frankly, i don't know as though I could.

I spent many years watching my father lash out at inanimate objects. (Never raised a hand to me, just random objects.) He'd take his anger out on random things, to the point that my mother and I had to call out half-way across the yard before going near the garage, so that he knew we were coming and wouldn't fling anything, not knowing that we were there.

I have serious issues with anger, specifically dealing with my own anger. I am physically incapable of lashing out at something. (I tried beating up a pillow once, then thought about actually busting it open, feathers everywhere, having to explain to my mother what happened, getting in trouble for breaking the pillow open and having to clean up the mess.... never tried to release my anger after that because I'm overwhelmed with the consequences of my actions.)

I'm terrified of anger. I'm angry at anger!
And while I know that not every back-lash is necessarily angry (as you pointed out with your sister, if the muscles know what they're doing, there's no emotion involved), but I think there is a certain level of anger in order to want to strike out at another person -- whether it be for defense of people or (survival) objects... esp. if your muscles are not otherwise trained.

But, I'm well aware that there's no reset button -- and this is why I think about which side is more correct because... I don't know if I could live with myself after hurting someone, nevermind killing someone. To kill someone is a bad thing, an incorrect action. But then it's suddenly okay when in this or that situation... I cannot reconcile that with myself, even when it comes down to keeping me alive. (Note: My inner beast is terribly unhappy with me for that statement. *smirks*)

As you said, this is the one problem with morals -- not everyone has studied them, not everyone admits to them, or that they apply equally to every person. I'm working to be a good person, a student of virtue. But virtue becomes almost meaningless when other people fail to recognize it, fail to work towards it... (and yes, to continue this thought, I'd have to shift it over to another thread.)
But, point being exactly as you put it -- not everyone is as responsible or conscious of their actions.
Meanwhile, I'm _too_ conscious!

So does the median between the two opposing sides mean that, in the end, I have to compromise my beliefs/values? I have to incur this responsibility that I do not want, this knowledge that I'm much happier without, so as to fend off a possible-might-maybe-someday-happen situation? (be it on the streets now, or in a survival situation)

And while I understand your will & responsibility in carrying a firearm, I've got issues with those as well. (bb guns aside)
I want to live out in the country, out on a farm. I'm a nature person, and the city does not agree with me.
My b/f wants to get a shotgun and a rifle. I hate the very thought of them being in the house, but fine -- I'll deal.
Then he says that he wants me to learn how to work and fire them.
I cannot reconcile my morals, my spirit, with that... with that knowledge.
I recognize the responsibility inherent in having such knowledge. Perhaps this is why i do not seek to acquire this knowledge? I do not want that responsibility...
"But, what if someone comes in the house while I'm not there? I'd rather that you were capable of taking care of yourself..."
"And I'd rather not entertain the risk of that someone taking the gun away and using it on me. Same reason that I do not carry weapons on my person."
"That's all well and good, but what about if they come in the house with a gun? At least if you had a gun and knew how to use it, you'd be on equal footing."
"This might be true, but if they surprised me - what difference would that knowledge make?"
"Better to have one and not need it, than need it and not have one."

(I hate picking the lesser of two evils...)

I know enough to never attack someone, because then they have the upper hand. (Altho I'm fairly certain that _you_ could attack someone and have the upper hand, what with all your training.) But, that is the extent of my knowledge -- and at the point of having to truly defend myself, I guess I'd hafta rely on my 'girlish instincts' and go cat fight style -- eyes, throat and... um.. tender bits. *ehem*

The debate still rages. It's very difficult to simply concede and go out and learn how to hurt/kill someone. This is why I liked Aikido when I started -- the whole point was defense...
And you're right, Aikido teaches you how to fall. But the instructor said that we'd be practicing on each other -- thus, I ran a very real risk of hurting someone in trying to teach them how to fall. If the teacher threw us, I would have felt better because then at least I know that the teacher obviously knew what he was doing, and if I get hurt it's my own fault. (This was, I suppose I should mention, a class at my college -- not a dojo. However, I assume that he ran his dojo the same as our class, so it wouldn't have made a difference.)
So, the method of learning defense is to become the offender... even in my head, I cannot do that.

As always, i Thank You for the heartfelt conversation.
I take your opinions to heart, and shall continue pondering and overturning this particular debate.

(P.S. And here I am going to get a Tree of Peace tattoo... debating self-defense...

posted on Jan, 18 2007 @ 07:01 PM
Good question here.

"So does the median between the two opposing sides mean that, in the end, I have to compromise my beliefs/values? I have to incur this responsibility that I do not want, this knowledge that I'm much happier without, so as to fend off a possible-might-maybe-someday-happen situation? (be it on the streets now, or in a survival situation)"

I surmise by some of the tales you have narrated to me that you have had to compromise many times in your trail down which you walk and weighed many out against real value. This is part of the growing up process. We often find that our beliefs or values are often not up to the task or the direction in which we intend to travel.

In a survial situation for which many here are describing we will have even fewer options and choices and will have to struggle very hard to keep the ones we do have. Someone else is going to want take them from us by any means.

I am not easily given to anger. Never was so. It is just that when I exceed a certain threshold it goes pretty much out of control. I think this too is what you fear. These fears are not unreasonable.

We are talking about survival here. I would suggest to you that the morals of survival are sometimes different or applied differently when the norm suddenly becomes a daily grind of survival at its basest level. We live in such a protected affluent social structure many of us seem to have forgotten this fact and take it for granted. This was one of the facets overlooked in the media after Hurrican Katrina. I believe much of it was politically covered up.

Understand about wanting to live in the country. Me too. There is an entirely different heartbeat...the very pulse of life is different. As I have previously stated...I can admire and respect the motives of four legged wildlife more than much of the two legged types.


I dont know if you can understand this concept but I am going to give it a try.
We all have fears and insecuritys/doubts. This is natural for humans..other animals too.

I choose to not live or be controlled by certain of my fears and doubts.
I choose to learn something about mastering or overcoming them with the view to getting them to work for me...for my benefit.
What happens often is that I get set back awhile but I learn to come back with another tack.

This often requires the proper application of dicipline. It does not require wildlife or runaway emotions. Diciplines are what seperates us from much of the wildlife of this world. Most of the wildlife in this world is Amoral. Without morals.
Most of us with any morals at all do not want to hurt anyone much less kill them. But for those who choose to step outside of certain morality...they must be reigned in or the moral structure will break down as it is doing in many places across this country. It is spreading like a many of the larger citys and even into the countryside. It will only accelerate quickly in dire survival situations ala...Katrina.

YOu will have to decide for yourself at the moment...whether it is time to flee the cancer or drive it off by means at your disposal. It will boil down or gel down to that. A careful read of history will make this clear. It has been repeated over and over through out the milleniums.

THanks for your post,

posted on Jan, 18 2007 @ 08:40 PM
Well, I'm certainly not the shrinking violet type. I'm a home-grown, corn-fed, redneck okie girl. Yeehaa! (Only partly kidding). My fight or flight reflex got stuck in first gear years ago. Never could understand why kids at school would pick fights with me. I'd give them a chance to leave with dignity, even take a few punches so they could "save face" and feel superior if that was what they needed. However, once you have made yourself a target (unwittingly in my case), the tormentors are endless. I had a great deal of respect for my fellow man and insight beyond my years into why he behaved with such insecurity but it didn't save me any punches. It finally occurred to me that I had more respect for their well-being and feelings than I had for mine. A more equitous situation was called for. I still gave them a chance to leave with ego intact but if that failed, I gave them a healthy dose of "leave me the hell alone!" Shortly thereafter, I quit getting picked on and beat up.

Pacivity is a wonderful trait and eagerly to be sought after. The one flaw with it (IMHO) is that of self-denegration. To allow anyone to hurt you or your loved ones (which spiritually are a part/extension of you) is to deny the inherent value of your own life or the value of your loved one's lives. It is to give credence and weight to their value system which is one of hate and self-loathing. Drawing a line in the sand is self-affirming and value affirming. Being able (and willing) to defend that line is survival.

Diseria, I sincerely hope you do survive any unpleasant situations our world my endure as tender souls such as yourself will be much needed in the aftermath when humanity is much more pliable to the lessons learned from our violent nature.

posted on Jan, 18 2007 @ 09:08 PM
Diseria, while I understand your feelings, I have to point out the error of your logic. I too would love to live out the rest of my days in peace and comfort. I do not want to have to kill animals in order to survive. I do not want to have to resort to arming myself with weapons to protect my family. Aikido, Judo and Jujitsu are all wonderful martial arts. In a rational world, these “soft” arts do well in protecting us from the occasional slug that is looking for easy prey.

Sit x, however, is by no means a rational world. To even think that it may be puts one in danger. In an irrational world those of us who are prepared become the prey. We have what the predator wants. It is a combat situation. We must embrace the notion of kill or be killed. Any other way of thinking could get us killed.

My hubby and I plan to go to a hostile environment because we know how to survive extreme cold and know how to live off the land. Our contact with others will hopefully be slim to none. Most slugs looking for easy prey will avoid these areas due to fear of the environment or just laziness. But we will not hesitate to protect ourselves from those wishing to do us harm.

The cold hard facts are in sit x we can no longer allow ourselves the luxury of pacifism. You will not be killing people; you will be protecting yourself from dangerous animals. Some of these animals will be of the two legged variety. It has nothing to do with anger. It is simply survival.

posted on Jan, 18 2007 @ 09:41 PM
Thank you everyone... Although I'm aware that my thoughts are very thinly wavering off the survival topic, I am glad that I got a chance to talk with y'all about it.

Dark Elf - Begrudgingly, I have to admit that you're right: in sit x, people will no longer act like people. (...which bares the question: are we truly acting like people now?). Indeed, we will be worse than animals - as animals at least have some code of behavior. People will become tricksters, cunning and malevolent... moreso than they are already. I guess I just keep hoping the same thing that I have hoped for so long -- that it'll get better... better before sit x, better after. Better all the way around.
Hope for the best, prepare for the worst then, eh?

Whitewave - There's a song by Jewel, and one of the chorus lines is my favorite: "I'm sensitive, and I'd like to stay that way". *smiles* yeah...
All I can really do is build a safe box within myself for sit x... hide my sensitivities until it's safe for them to come out. (I just hope that I don't put it in one of my infamous 'safe spots' which invariably gets lost!)

OrangeTom - I'm trying to not be controlled by fears and insecurities... It's such a fine line trying to understand and see an action or a behavior as a fear, or as a reason. Am I simply afraid to stick my hand in the fire, or is there an actual reason for not doing so? Is my fear simply a rationalization, or an instinct that defies conscious reasons? (And how the heck would I know either way??)

posted on Jan, 18 2007 @ 10:52 PM
My thanks to you ladies for clearly posting that for which I was unable.
Well said by all.


You are correct in saying that it is a fine line. Until you have had enough experience in it with your life and safety it can be difficult to tell where the dividing line clearly is. For some it is very clear from the start.
Dark Elf stated it quite is survival. Simply survival.

We want to survive for ourselves, our familys , our way of life. There is nothing immoral about that. This is a worthy reason. I dont believe any of us wants to injure or kill another to achieve this but if they tresspass where they should not it is immoral to cede to them at the expense of ourselves or our familys. This is survival.

We do this every day in our occupations. It just has a more civilized form and outward appearence than in the so called situation X but make no mistake it is survival.

Pacivity is indeed a wonderful trait and also very eagerly sought after. God knows I love peace and order in my life. There are just people out here who have no respect unto this concept.

Dark Elf once again succinctly stated this is in no way a rational world. I agree. And once again to think otherwise is to put oneself in danger.

On the other hand Diseria..I dont think your thoughts are wavering off the survival topic. I think you are weighing something unpleasant to your natural instincts. This too is not unreasonable. Nor your reaction to it.

There are those of us out here who try in the poor manner we do to act like people. To be what we call civilized or at least civil. WE too like a peaceful orderly and private manner of life. We do not like to observe humans at their basest levels and also observe them claiming this is excellence. We know better. If I want that kind of drivel I turn on the television. It is all over the boob tube.

I am going to tell you something about myself and sticking ones hand in the fire.

I work in a shipyard building Aircraft Carriers and Submarines..including doing nuclear work. This can be very dangerous at times and hence my earlier comments about my moneys coming dearly.
I have had to stick my hand in the fire so to speak many times. Mind you now this does not make me better than others..not hardly. It does however make me different. When I leave work and put up my hard hat these patterns of thinking dont go in my locker with my hard hat. I take them with me to home and use them in solving problems here as well...and surviving in this problem solving.
You learn by certain thinking and experience when and how to put your hand into most fires. You are very careful and prudent about those fires of which you dont know. But fear and certain insecuritys will not cut it at the moment of truth. I have seen this with my own eyes as have others on this board. It is just something I know.

LOL LOL and yes the "instant gratification" syndrome is verily at odds with learning the hard way. Ironically ..with many of us it sticks with us much better and longer if we survive hitting the concrete a couple of times. It will slow you down and make one think about the true nature of instant gratification. It can be very misleading...instant gratification.
Yes this requires dicipline and work....both a function of time.

Oh and yes...little steps , baby steps are exactly how it is done...bravo!!
Eventually you will be walking and then running.

And now Ladies..I am off work through the weekend. I have just enjoyed a fine but late repast of grilled chicken breast, peas, and apple sauce.

With the closing of this post I will now savor a "civilized treat" of a fine cup of coffee flavored with real Amaretto and a chocolate eclair purchased earlier today at the local bakery. Bon Appetit!!

Thanks to all,

posted on Jan, 19 2007 @ 12:23 AM
Diseria, I didn’t want to be harsh, but we need to consider these things before we actually have to live it. Rather than wavering off the survival issue, you are actually addressing the ugliest concept of survival. We know the uncivilized are out there. You may or may not have been affected by it. But at the moment the threat is not imminent so we tend to dismiss it. But now is just the time to consider these ideas as distasteful as it may seem. I know it’s a tough moral dilemma, but it has to be dealt with. I wish you the best in this endeavor.

As for the matter of instant gratification; I’ve fought this fight since my late teens. I was fortunate enough to have an older man as my mentor in this. He taught me the truth in the satisfaction that can only be achieved through delayed gratification. In the thirty some odd years since then, that truth has shaped my life. In a society that thrives on instant gratification, I am an oddball. I have learned how to sacrifice to obtain the goal. Easy is not always best and hard will often reap the greater rewards.

Originally posted by orangetom1999
And now Ladies..I am off work through the weekend. I have just enjoyed a fine but late repast of grilled chicken breast, peas, and apple sauce.

With the closing of this post I will now savor a "civilized treat" of a fine cup of coffee flavored with real Amaretto and a chocolate eclair purchased earlier today at the local bakery. Bon Appetit!!

Thanks to all,

Enjoy all the little joys now. They may just be cherished memories in the future.

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