Harsh is not an entirely bad thing. It's rough, no doubt, but there is truth in staring at harsh reality. (I'm a 'pacifist' who has a serious morbid fascination - morally incongruent, or simply human?) ((I say 'pacifist' because I've never been in a situation which challenges me to be one way or the other, so I've never had the occasion to truly exercised this particular trait/belief. Same can easily be said with most traits of virtue.))

I see people act today, I watch how they behave. I observe. I can only extrapolate to figure out what they might be like if the shtf... And while I am very aware of history, I refuse to strap humanity down to it because I keep hoping for a change.

But, no matter the size of my bubble, the comfort I find in living under my rock, my morbid fascination extends to the harshness of reality. For as much as I burry my head in books, in logic and ethics, in writing, in whatever activity... the more that I learn the harsher reality becomes... It's sad and fascinating...

And the harshness of reality has a tart smack when looking at instant gratification. I have to wonder how people will 'survive' without it -- and, more importantly, how will they translate this 'need' when it comes to sit x? (And this train of thought circles back around to my nightmare situation -- is it better to stay and teach people what it means to be patient, possibly risking myself for this higher/better way of going about living, or is it better to let them figure it out themselves?)

Patterns of thinking will stay with us no matter what happens, be they good or bad. Just as instant gratification will carry over, so will morals/ethics. However the latter will serve better in the long run, methinks. However, I'm well aware that I might just hafta make my safety box a little bigger to fit my morals in with my sensitivity.


(I'll write more later, but I hafta run to class.)

As always, Thank You. The words/thoughts may be harsh, but that does not dull their points of truth.

~Dis

I surmise by some of the tales you have narrated to me that you have had to compromise many times in your trail down which you walk and weighed many out against real value. This is part of the growing up process. We often find that our beliefs or values are often not up to the task or the direction in which we intend to travel.

Indeed. I have compromised many times - compromised my values, compromised my path. I continue to compromise in order to keep the outer peace.

But, instead of my values not being up to the task of my path, I'm realizing that they are very much in tune with my path -- I lack the strength, the discipline to uphold them.

Maybe that's why I fight so hard for the few things that I can maintain, that I have not (yet) compromised?

My apologies, this is going on a more psychological tangent; however the idea of compromise still applies in sit x... compromising morals because of the situation, or compromising the situation because of morals.

(I thought about starting up another thread about this particular topic, and I might still; but, for right now, I'd prefer to keep it in the light of survival - both in sit x, and in current life. However, if y'all would rather I moved my debate elsewhere, just say the word! )

In a survial situation for which many here are describing we will have even fewer options and choices and will have to struggle very hard to keep the ones we do have. Someone else is going to want them...to take them from us by any means.

Is this a case of automatically assuming the worst? Or is this an obvious extrapolation based on society's current trend?

Part of me is in simple denial -- I will admit. I see the way people act now-a-days, in the little ways that could translate to even worse ways if the shtf. My mind tries to re-shift the focus to 'could', which brings a spark of hope that people will not actually deny their humane-ity, and return to the beasts within (which we so readily deny).

Is there no sense of morality in survival? Must we become beasts to retain our humane-ity? (I'm guessing yes, that morality only applies to those who, likewise, have a sense of morality, and to maintain any semblance of morality we must become immoral. What a friggin' paradox.)

And part of me knows that my denial is simply because of my studies that are at complete odds with today's society, with how today's society might/will act if/when there is no society to speak of.

(Anything else I might type after this point will no longer be in terms of survival, so I'm just gonna end it here.)

Originally posted by Diseria

Indeed. I have compromised many times - compromised my values, compromised my path. I continue to compromise in order to keep the outer peace.

Yes I too have compromised many times. When I see that something is not working out I take a different tack if the goal is worthy of my time if not I discard the mess. And yes you often must fight hard for the few things which are so worthwhile.

My method of planning Diseria is to plan for the worst I can manage..or deal with....conceive. If anything less happens I consider myself blessed.

What I see many people doing is ..I'm ok..Your ok...I'm good people so I dont have to plan for anything since I am good people and deserve good things. IF I get bad things I automatcially declare that it is "Not Fair" and play through by default....on someone elses time and resources since I am good people and deserve good things.

This is an actual dogma ..dictum utilized by many people in different variations. It works very well on others in good times. They will try the same in bad times..gaurantee it. Problem is that they will mostly run across others practicing the same dictum and dogma. THese people cannot live off each other..they are high maintenance. What is the morality behind this dictum.

I think though Diseria that you have a very different starting point than do I and some of the others who post on this thread. THis is something I sense ...like radar....

I do not believe that people are basically good. I believe that people and their natures are basically bad. That is my starting point. All of us ..no exceptions. Especially myself. Im ok ..your ok ..doesn't cut if for me.

THe raw material we are made of is lousy material. No amount of education or knowlege is going to change this. I suspect that you have the opposite view of this ...your starting point. This is why you have problems with this morality. You know what you would like people to be and tend to give many the benifit. But I think you have also at times paid a dear price for these beliefs....as have also many of us.

Variations of "Im ok..your ok" is standard bill of fare in our learning institutions today. I dont believe it. I wish I had a degree and letters...I probably should have remained in college...but I would have bought into this belief system without being aware of what it really is.

I do not say this to you and others who read this post to be hurtful..only to make a point ..a starting point..so that you will know and understand why I think and believe the way I do ..situation X or not.

Thanks for your post..also dont let this get you down...you are doing fine here on this thread. I as well as others enjoy your posts and frankness.

Thanks,
Orangetom

OrangeTom,

I do not think your words hurtful, or as Dark Elf put it, harsh. Your point of view is not alien to me; in fact, I went from where you're standing to where I'm standing now: I don't see people as inherently good or inherently bad. We're neutral. We have the capability to be anywhere on the gammet from good to evil. And we also have the ability to change our current position...

Our roots are beastly, so we'll take the easy way out whenever possible -- which can (or usually) lead(s) to bad ends (both within and without). But, that does not mean that we completely lack the ability of realizing the various paths, and making conscious decisions about them, about which one we choose to take.

I agree with the Hindus who believe that the physical realm is a realm of pain. Life is pain. But, I don't necessarily think that pain is a good thing, nor a bad thing -- pain is as you take it. If my stomach hurts, I have the choice to whine and moan and be cranky, or to completely ignore it, or to feel the pain and take delight in the fact that I can actually feel an otherwise silent organ. (The latter choice is mine -- how often do we get to feel organs that we'll (hopefully!) never actually see, indeed, that we usually forget we even have?)

Originally posted by orangetom1999
Yes I too have compromised many times. When I see that something is not working out I take a different tack if the goal is worthy of my time if not I discard the mess. And yes you often must fight hard for the few things which are so worthwhile.

Say that I choose to fight for morality. Obviously I am, but extend that to any and all situations (which is part of my internal debate). If that is my path, then how can I turn against it, or deviate from it, and 'go with the flow' by joining everyone else in discarding morality? I'd be going against my own grains, in trying to keep my grains alive!

If something (in my case, morality) is worth fighting for (or maintaining), then the question then becomes: How far am I willing to go?

I think though Diseria that you have a very different starting point than do I and some of the others who post on this thread. THis is something I sense ...like radar....

*nods* I've got radar about people -- I know (usually upon first meeting) if the person is a truly good person, if I can trust them. (If that little light doesn't go off, I don't know for sure.) It's gone of a number of times in my life, and a few times on this thread. (I'll echo the sentiment again -- if the shtf, I hope I find y'all, or people like you guys. Seriously.) ((To my knowledge, my radar's been correct, possibly wrong(-ish) once.))

However, your radar was correct, so go on - give yourself a cookie! ,)

I do not believe that people are basically good. I believe that people and their natures are basically bad. That is my starting point. All of us ..no exceptions. Especially myself.

See, because (as with most things in life) I sit on the fence, I think that everyone has the potential to be good, to be bad, to do good and bad actions. I refuse to call them one or the other, because I've known bad people who did good things, and vice versa. So, I hafta leave it open ended...

We cannot determine a person's character based on one lone action, be it good or bad. We can only know if a person was truly good or bad by looking at the entirety of their actions and behaviors, at the end of their life.

I include myself in that neutrality, although I'm not very good at giving myself the benefit of the doubt as well as I do others. (That's my character flaw. The one benefit is that I know I will never suffer from arrogance and conceit.) Indeed, it's another baby step...

THe raw material we are made of is lousy material. No amount of education or knowlege is going to change this.

I disagree. The raw material is as it is - neither good nor bad. And without education and knowledge, we'd be hairless apes, but without the massive and intimidating muscles. (In fact, I'd liken us more to hyenas, actually.)
It's from education (and, arguably, mis-education) that we learn to be good or bad, or even what is socially considered good and bad. Knowledge comes with time, experience, and a certain level of self-reflection. These are key to our development... or lack thereof. (In this particular aspect, I subscribe to Confucius... but I'll hafta put that on another post, as I'm quickly running out of room with all my adding/editting! *smirks*)

This is why you have problems with this morality. You know what you would like people to be and tend to give many the benifit. But I think you have also at times paid a dear price for these beliefs....as have also many of us.

Yes, I've been disappointed and hurt many times, by others, by myself. I think that's a fact of life, no matter one's environment or society or culture or education.

It saddens me that I give the benefit of the doubt, and am left holding the ball, so to speak. Reliability and trustworthiness are in a severe shortage.

But, how can I ever hope to see these wonderful qualities return if I do not give people the benefit of the doubt? the chance to prove me wrong? Is it such a bad thing to hold hope, to have faith that maybe, just maybe, people will come around and return to some level of decency?

If I have even a smidgen of faith in myself, in the fact that I can change myself with time (which is slowly developing), then I have to have it for other people, otherwise I leave absolutely no room for change...

...you are doing fine here on this thread. I as well as others enjoy your posts and frankness.

For this, i am grateful. While I've never met any of you face-to-face, don't even know names... I see no point in being dishonest. I learn nothing about myself, about you guys, about people, or even life from lying.

(Although, I will admit that if anyone ever meets me irl, I'm not as elegant in my speech as I am in my writing! Fair warning! )

~Dis

[edit on 19-1-2007 by Diseria]

Note to all of you this evening. Ive been watching the weather again.

Man oh man!!!! Are you guys going to get a break out there. I just noticed that round two is coming on quickly

Whitewave how are you doing out there...you too Dark Elf??

I decided to look up the local newspaper site to check the weather and it also has a link to nationwide radar sites. I chose one near the Oklahoma/Texas border. Looks like more is on the way.

This time it looks like as it spreads eastward..it till hang more to the south so I will be keeping an eye on the weather closely this week.

I have a second set of Snowmobile gloves. I am thinking I need to hunt them up out in the garage.

Please let me know how you folks are doing out there.

Orangetom

Originally posted by Diseria
OrangeTom,

I do not think your words hurtful, or as Dark Elf put it, harsh. Your point of view is not alien to me; in fact, I went from where you're standing to where I'm standing now: I don't see people as inherently good or inherently bad. We're neutral. We have the capability to be anywhere on the gammet from good to evil. And we also have the ability to change our current position...

I don’t believe that we are inherently good or bad, but I believe that we are inherently selfish. Selfishness is not necessarily a bad thing. It is part of our basic survival instinct. I will be selfish to the extent of the survival of my family, but not to the extent of hurting others to take what they have. Yet there are, and will be, many who will take selfishness to this extreme. Are they bad or just taking survival to the extreme?

Our roots are beastly, so we'll take the easy way out whenever possible -- which can (or usually) lead(s) to bad ends (both within and without). But, that does not mean that we completely lack the ability of realizing the various paths, and making conscious decisions about them, about which one we choose to take.

Unfortunately, there are those who do lack the ability to choose a moral path. The social psychopath has no concern for you, your loved ones, or your morals. There are those who will not be moved by your tears or pleas. In sit x these people will be the worst predators. They are the ones who will take you out if you don’t take them out first. At the moment, they may seem to be nice normal people but when their survival mode kicks in, they will be ruthless.

I agree with the Hindus who believe that the physical realm is a realm of pain. Life is pain. But, I don't necessarily think that pain is a good thing, nor a bad thing -- pain is as you take it. If my stomach hurts, I have the choice to whine and moan and be cranky, or to completely ignore it, or to feel the pain and take delight in the fact that I can actually feel an otherwise silent organ. (The latter choice is mine -- how often do we get to feel organs that we'll (hopefully!) never actually see, indeed, that we usually forget we even have?)

Pain is a warning message from the brain. Whether physical or emotional, it is a message that something is being damaged. Our bodies are marvelous machines that we must learn to listen to if we are to survive.

Originally posted by orangetom1999
Yes I too have compromised many times. When I see that something is not working out I take a different tack if the goal is worthy of my time if not I discard the mess. And yes you often must fight hard for the few things which are so worthwhile.

Say that I choose to fight for morality. Obviously I am, but extend that to any and all situations (which is part of my internal debate). If that is my path, then how can I turn against it, or deviate from it, and 'go with the flow' by joining everyone else in discarding morality? I'd be going against my own grains, in trying to keep my grains alive!

If something (in my case, morality) is worth fighting for (or maintaining), then the question then becomes: How far am I willing to go?

How far indeed? Are you willing to risk your life to fight for morality in an immoral world? If you’re not willing to go along are you willing to go alone? I, like orangetom, believe that you are coming form a totally different perspective. I’m not sure of your age, but you appear to be young and idealistic. I think what orangetom and I are trying to do is push past your idealism and show the inherent evil that exist in this world. It is an evil that will only be magnified by sit x.

Not speaking for orangetom, but I have seen and experienced some of the worst examples of cruelty and selfishness that the human race can dish out. I wish I could say that these people have remorse for their actions, but most do not. Most would and will, if given the chance, do these things again. There is a problem in the wiring of their brains; and there are more of them in this world than you can imagine. This does not even begin to address those nice normal people who will suddenly turn on you during sit x.

I do not believe that people are basically good. I believe that people and their natures are basically bad. That is my starting point. All of us ..no exceptions. Especially myself.

See, because (as with most things in life) I sit on the fence, I think that everyone has the potential to be good, to be bad, to do good and bad actions. I refuse to call them one or the other, because I've known bad people who did good things, and vice versa. So, I hafta leave it open ended...

We cannot determine a person's character based on one lone action, be it good or bad. We can only know if a person was truly good or bad by looking at the entirety of their actions and behaviors, at the end of their life.

I include myself in that neutrality, although I'm not very good at giving myself the benefit of the doubt as well as I do others. (That's my character flaw. The one benefit is that I know I will never suffer from arrogance and conceit.) Indeed, it's another baby step...

As I stated before, it is not a matter of good or bad, but a matter of how selfish one is. Many of us have done things that we are not proud of. But make no mistake; there are truly evil people out there. You do not have to wait until they die to see it; but you may wish their death would come sooner. I believe that you have been truly blessed in that you have not been touched by their evil. Unfortunately for those of us who have, we know what these people are capable of doing. Sitting on the fence only gives you a sore bum. There is a saying that “you have to stand for something, or you’ll fall for anything.”

THe raw material we are made of is lousy material. No amount of education or knowlege is going to change this.

I disagree. The raw material is as it is - neither good nor bad. And without education and knowledge, we'd be hairless apes, but without the massive and intimidating muscles. (In fact, I'd liken us more to hyenas, actually.)
It's from education (and, arguably, mis-education) that we learn to be good or bad, or even what is socially considered good and bad. Knowledge comes with time, experience, and a certain level of self-reflection. These are key to our development... or lack thereof. (In this particular aspect, I subscribe to Confucius... but I'll hafta put that on another post, as I'm quickly running out of room with all my adding/editting! *smirks*)

Nope, some people are just born that way. Most of us learn from the consequences of our actions, but there are those who have no conscience. No amount of education or knowledge can deter these people. Actually, knowledge is a very dangerous thing in the hands of these people. Conventional Christianity tells us that we are all born evil. In actuality, it should be teaching that we are born without a connection to God. So most people are not inherently good or bad; but, there are some who are born with really screwed up wiring.

This is why you have problems with this morality. You know what you would like people to be and tend to give many the benifit. But I think you have also at times paid a dear price for these beliefs....as have also many of us.

Yes, I've been disappointed and hurt many times, by others, by myself. I think that's a fact of life, no matter one's environment or society or culture or education.

It saddens me that I give the benefit of the doubt, and am left holding the ball, so to speak. Reliability and trustworthiness are in a severe shortage.

But, how can I ever hope to see these wonderful qualities return if I do not give people the benefit of the doubt? the chance to prove me wrong? Is it such a bad thing to hold hope, to have faith that maybe, just maybe, people will come around and return to some level of decency?

If I have even a smidgen of faith in myself, in the fact that I can change myself with time (which is slowly developing), then I have to have it for other people, otherwise I leave absolutely no room for change...

If you are willing to risk your life to give others the benefit of the doubt, you may end up losing it. You cannot judge others by your own compass. You sound like an intelligent and caring, although naïve’ young woman. I wouldn’t mind having you in my camp when TSHTF. Keep in mind that civilized behavior only takes place in a civilized society. As our society declines, so does our behavior. When TSHTF, all bets are off. As long as you don’t expect others to behave in a civilized manner, you won’t be disappointed.

...you are doing fine here on this thread. I as well as others enjoy your posts and frankness.

For this, i am grateful. While I've never met any of you face-to-face, don't even know names... I see no point in being dishonest. I learn nothing about myself, about you guys, about people, or even life from lying.

(Although, I will admit that if anyone ever meets me irl, I'm not as elegant in my speech as I am in my writing! Fair warning! )

I too enjoy your post. I doubt you would be impressed to meet this cynical old woman face-to-face. I respond not to attack, but out of compassion. Guess there is hope for me yet

Originally posted by orangetom1999

Note to all of you this evening. Ive been watching the weather again.

Man oh man!!!! Are you guys going to get a break out there. I just noticed that round two is coming on quickly

Whitewave how are you doing out there...you too Dark Elf??

I decided to look up the local newspaper site to check the weather and it also has a link to nationwide radar sites. I chose one near the Oklahoma/Texas border. Looks like more is on the way.

This time it looks like as it spreads eastward..it till hang more to the south so I will be keeping an eye on the weather closely this week.

I have a second set of Snowmobile gloves. I am thinking I need to hunt them up out in the garage.

Please let me know how you folks are doing out there.

Orangetom

Don't worry about me, bro. I'm so far south that cold is a pleasant change. I'm still waiting for my husband's transfer to the pacific northwest to come in. But at the moment, I'm watching rain and dreaming of snow.

Two posts up was Dark Elfs last post.(Banned)

How sad,seems like surviving on ATS can be hard also.

She is one of the last people i would have guessed at being eventually banned.

Hope its a mistake.

Greetings all. Been away for a few days. Weather in my neck of the woods is constantly in flux. Weatherman is frequently wrong. I shoveled 3 inches of "partly cloudy" off my doorstep but am "back in the saddle" again.
Hate to see Darkelf gone. I, too, would not have guessed she would be banished. Makes me afraid to post anything. Seems like "survival", even on an internet forum, is tough. I've seen the mods be equitous and lenient, though, and they have more information about the situation than I do. Guess I'll be reading that ATS handbook again, right after a moment of silence.

I don't see how she got banned for _anything_ said on this particular thread. There were no warnings here, and I certainly wasn't offended to have my bubble popped, so to speak.

I'm not very good and surfing around (limited attention span, even more limited time to spend here with skool), so I'm unsure if it was caused by a post elsewhere.

Keep in mind that she might be in debate over whatever quarrelsome post. (I've known at least one person who was 'banned' while in debate over some post or another.)

*sigh*

'Tis one of the things that sometimes bothers me -- we never know why. They just disappear.

(where's the 'shaking head' smiley when you need one?)

This comes as a surprise to me. I surmise it must be due to something on another board/thread.

I like to read DarkElfs posts as they are mostly well grounded so I know when I see her name to read closely as there is something worthwhile there.

Do any of you know as to for how long this will be??

Thanks,
Orangetom

Got to admit I was kinda surprised that darkelf was banned. She must have had a meltdown or something.

Peace

Originally posted by Diseria
I don't see how she got banned for _anything_ said on this particular thread. There were no warnings here, and I certainly wasn't offended to have my bubble popped, so to speak.

She's been around for a while and I've never seen her get a warning or get into any real flame wars [by my standards at least].

I'm not very good and surfing around (limited attention span, even more limited time to spend here with skool), so I'm unsure if it was caused by a post elsewhere.

Had a look at her last few posts and there's nothing there.. unless she was doing something via U2U which I doubt unless she has a Jeckil and hyde personality.

'Tis one of the things that sometimes bothers me -- we never know why. They just disappear.

(where's the 'shaking head' smiley when you need one?)

The enforcement of the T&C seems very inconsistant sometimes. Some can blatently sodomise the rules with little consequence whereas others just vanish, seemingly without reason. It's why I rarely visit here anymore.. it's a shame it hasn't changed.

[edit on 24-1-2007 by riley]

Shows ya how tough survival is for a woman in any venue. Don't know about the rest of you but I've kind of lost the heart for this thread. See ya.

*sigh*

And I just read something that woulda been great to bring into the discussion...

Dang. And Poo!

Part of me wants to fight and bring this thread back, you know - inner rebel and all that, fight the power in order to survive...

But I'm afraid that the discussion would waver from 'survival' and oooch into sheer ethics... (while I'd like to think there's ethics in survival, this may or may not be the case, and frankly I won't truly know until I've been in a situation and have personal experience. Dark Elf was right - to an extent, I have been blessed by not having my bubble forceably popped by some 'evil' external force...)



And thank you Riley, I totally forgot that the bts smileys were useable in ats...

DarkElf

Member was on ATS
54 minutes ago.

I dont think i`ve seen that before,it still has banned member under her name though

Edit to add

Member was on ATS
12 minutes ago.

Hi Dark Elf.
I bet your busting to say something to us but can`t.Kind of like Helen Keller at the moment.I hope its just a glich or something.

[edit on 24-1-2007 by gps777]

Hello, as a fellow regular here in our community of survival, I need to say that I'm a bit shocked by the banning. I was diligently reading this thread, not skipping a single post so that I could show my appreciation for the insight shared in this thread.

The banning really kind of took the wind out of my sails to add to the thread.

I am disappointed.

darkelf I saw you here a while ago, I really hope you are allowed back with us.

So, has all the wind been sucked from our sails?


Does anyone (besides me) think it would be beneficial to continue the conversation - perhaps on a different forum?

I miss Darkelf and want to see her back again on this or other threads.

That does not mean we will quit and roll over. I dont think Darkelf would want us to do so and stop exchanging useful or benificial informations.

If it was one of us would you expect Darkelf to quit and join the Nunnery??

You dont roll over...you get right back up when the horse throws you off.

This does not mean you dont think or regroup but you dont quit..understand??

Also understand Rileys point a couple of posts back and agree.

Diseria..if you have an Idea or thought on this thread ..please continue.


Thanks,
Orangetom